Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Catching Spies on April 25, 2003, 12:58:53 PM
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I know the internet in some cases can alter some of the game play however I hope someone can explain this to me like I'm in the third-grade.
Several days ago I was flying in a LA-7 at 10k when I noticed a P51 at 6.0 behind me the P51 was maybe 2k higher. The P51 sets its sights on and here it comes. I go into a slight dive,(P51 is at 5.0 behind) engage WEP get my speed up to 475knots increasing to 500+ knots. I noticed the P51 is gaining on me so I go nose down a little more speed now at 525 knots and increasing (no turning) just straight line for home slowly the P51 is about to over take me which in time it does the top speed I reach is over 550 knots.
Speeds being about equal in the dive my quesion is: How can this occur? it defyes mathmatics...
I then cut my engine while at 550 knots (I know the P51 has to at full throttle, WEP, trimed out) pull up slighty and turn hard left when the P51 gets within 2.0 behind me speed drops quickly to 275 knots and dropping fast. Well guess what .... the P51 is right there still behind me. My question is: How can this be possible?
Thanks for responding,
:)
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Originally posted by Catching Spies
I know the internet in some cases can alter some of the game play however I hope someone can explain this to me like I'm in the third-grade.
Several days ago I was flying in a LA-7 at 10k when I noticed a P51 at 6.0 behind me the P51 was maybe 2k higher. The P51 sets its sights on and here it comes. I go into a slight dive,(P51 is at 5.0 behind) engage WEP get my speed up to 475knots increasing to 500+ knots. I noticed the P51 is gaining on me so I go nose down a little more speed now at 525 knots and increasing (no turning) just straight line for home slowly the P51 is about to over take me which in time it does the top speed I reach is over 550 knots.
Speeds being about equal in the dive my quesion is: How can this occur? it defyes mathmatics...
I then cut my engine while at 550 knots (I know the P51 has to at full throttle, WEP, trimed out) pull up slighty and turn hard left when the P51 gets within 2.0 behind me speed drops quickly to 275 knots and dropping fast. Well guess what .... the P51 is right there still behind me. My question is: How can this be possible?
Thanks for responding,
:)
Simple. You mis-judged his E state. Obviously speeds weren't equal. That and he most probably "cut" the corner.
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Since he had 2k on you to begin with, not too surprising he stayed with you in the dive.
Not sure I could do it myself, but there are no doubt pony drivers who could chop throttle and cross controls to match your decileration, then yo-yo to stay with you.
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LOL, these La7 dweebs never change ...
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Well, you say you first noticed the pony at 6.0 behind you, slightly higher. What if the pony had been diving on you prior to that?
If the pony is already diving in, he could be goin 500+ while you are still at cruise. Sounds like you're assuming the pony was in level cruise when you notcied him.
Pull up slightly and hard left..chop throttle and slow to 275. That's really not a difficult task.....pony chops throttle, dumps flaps. If he gets to close to your overshoot he could displace some of the closure with a barrel roll or two.Chopping throttle to stay saddled up could be a risky move for the pony because he has unzipped his fly. If he matches your speed, and then misses, you'll be able to use your fantastic acceleration to wriggle out of the jam. Also, you took him low and he surrendered a lot of his E to stay on your 6. You may may have died but if you had help in the area, the pony put himself in a pickle.
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I think he means he throttled back, not turned it off. Most people use "cut my engine" to mean idled their engine I think. Don't jump on him over some useless side note unless you are absolutely positive you know what he means.
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Your question seems to be why is the Pony better in a dive then the La7.
The answer is that they are different planes. I am not supprised at all that the Pony is better at keeping speed in a dive then the La7. As to the end game, Why shouldnt he be able to match your move? The Pony has great flaps and a great view of the war...Why should he not be able to track you through such a basic manuver.
You should have imediatly turned into him. By the time you merged you might have cut the alt difference down to 1k or so.
If you fly aggressivly and he stays to duke it out that is all the advantage you need in an la7 vs the average pony pilot.
If he knows his stuff giving him 1k and some speed at the merge might be a mistake. But diving for home from a pony with 2k on you 6000 yards away from you just doenst really make sence to me.
At 10 k He cant rope you. He cant run you down. He cant dive away from you unless he had tones of E on you to start with.
You should definalty have played more aggressive.
Turning on your back in a dog fight is ususally not the way to win it.
Im not a honcho by any means. But I am in the game to fight, I think you passed up a good opertunity to enjoy the game. One on one in two excellent planes.
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Well, to each there own opinnion. The 339th is a Pony squadron and I have been flying the Pony in SIMMs for more than 6 years. If you accurately described the situation what happened is near impossible. There's a coupla pilots out there that might do it but yo-yoing and the like is not gonna get it done by most pilots. I wouldn't have even bothered to go after you. At 475 + in a dive most Pony's start to shake themselves apart.
If it was daddy= or --yt-- or a hand full of other Pony Pilots you were already dead :)
I would hazard to Guess:
1. He had more Alt on you than you thought.
2. He had less fuel than you (lighter).
3. You were too worried about him and looked back too much causing your wings to wobble and nose to bounce thus some of your "E" was lost. If you're gonna run then run don't look back until you're a sector away or on the Deck. Nothing discourages a chase like a enema that's diving and going to cost all your E and prolly result in nothing more than a long climb back up.
Once you were sure of his intennt, why didn't you fight him?
Bet it's a "Blue Moon" before that happens to you again.
Regards,
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Originally posted by Arfann
Since he had 2k on you to begin with, not too surprising he stayed with you in the dive.
Not sure I could do it myself, but there are no doubt pony drivers who could chop throttle and cross controls to match your decileration, then yo-yo to stay with you.
Yes. And I can do it in a Yak9U, too. Rudder right, roll left, change prop pitch. LA-7s have horrible deceleration anyway so its not so hard. In a stallfight, the LA-7 is at a disadvantage against a Mustang anyway.
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Odepius,
You and MANDOBLE both jump him. And your follow up didn't ask him if he'd turned his engine off or not, you asked him why he'd turned his engine off instead of simply throttling down. Your stated assumption was that he had turned his engine off.
And MANDOBLE is, well, MANDOBLE.
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Man, sounds like whoever was driving th Pony was in almost ideal position: not too much alt; high E state; good manouvering room; prolly not another enemy close by. I dream of those setups. Th Pony's my favorite ride, and I'm no uber fighter pilot, but I too have come to appreciate the Pony's sterling qualities in that situatuation: perfect setup for BnZ. Once he (the enemy) has made his first turn all Pony has to do is maintain E, zoom up and keep harrassing prey 'till it becomes a sitting duck. At least, that's what my dreams go like:D
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Originally posted by Oedipus
... So holster your pea shooter McNugget.
Oed
ROTLMAO..."McNugget". That's too funny. Where'd that come from?
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Originally posted by Arfann
Not sure I could do it myself, but there are no doubt pony drivers who could chop throttle and cross controls to match your decileration, then yo-yo to stay with you.
Dont have to Yo-Yo just chop throttle. Its quite easy to do, and i do it in the MA many many times, it catches the enemy off guard every single time its done.
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Catching Spies--
What you describeis perfectly possible. Essentially you played the fight right into the P-51 driver's hands, and the guy in the 51 apparently knew what he was doing.
First off, the P-51 can dive quite well. Given a 2K alt advantage, it WILL catch an LA7 and the LA7, despite being faster at low altitudes, will nto pull away unless in a prolonged tail chase. So it comes as no surprise to me that the 51 could close the distance.
One thing the P-51 does NOT do well is remain stable in these high speed dives--it becomes rather upset with the pilot and if he isn't careful the plane can rattle itself apart.
Second, the chop-throttle maneuver is not a good choice when you have an agressive Mustang on your 6, because the Mustang can slow down a lot faster than the LA7 can. All the Mustang pilot had to do was cut throttle, drop as much flaps as possible, and give in a liberal amount of rudder--when you do this, the P-51 slows down as if it just dropped anchor and I use this tactic myself on occasion.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with losing in the situation you describe--the guy in the 51 started with the advantage and managed to win.
J_A_B
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Well okay.... I thought my question was a fair and honest attempt to get a answer from experienced players I did not know my question would bring out the loosers (Odepius, MANDOBLE ) that is true in any walk of life... well anyway on to more positive things.
When I said cut I meant zero rpm's or as it is described chop throttle (I didn't know there was lingo for this I was attempting to describe what happened). Second I'm not very good at this game I just had a question if it is possilbe (I didn't want to say the other player was cheating) I just wanted to know if if is possible to complete the manuaver, if it is and it has been said it is that is okay with me.
Thank you for responding,
:D
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If you fly an La7 better be prepaired to get smacked around a lot in the arena.
Some of us will think nothing of dumping 3-7k of alt just to kill one. Niks and P51's get the same attention from me also.
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extremely possible, and not that hard, chopping with a climbing turn leaves you set for a simple 400yd T shot, a mustang pilots' specialty if he's even halfway decent.
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P-51 is heavier and has less drag than an La-7, it should catch an La-7 in a dive...
Hooligan
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i don;t understand why he didn't simply reverse when the pony was about 3k out and pop that azz?
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Originally posted by Shane
i don;t understand why he didn't simply reverse when the pony was about 3k out and pop that azz?
I was wondering the same thing. I always turn into the attacker under those circumstances. At the very least he will just blow on by and go looking for an easier target.
My regards,
Widewing
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No ammo....
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Originally posted by Catching Spies
No ammo....
Nice recovery !!!
BUT ...
I have turned into a closing plane with no ammo ... He doesn't know that I don't have ammo. Once I have reversed the situation and chase them for a short while, I try to leave the scene and in most cases, they won't follow.
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exactly... and nothing, but nothing, beats you being bingo and flying them into the dirt.
bullets are over-rated.
:D
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Originally posted by Shane
exactly... and nothing, but nothing, beats you being bingo and flying them into the dirt.
bullets are over-rated.
:D
Yup ... forgot about that ... I have to agree. :D
BTW Shane ... observed one of your DA sessions last week (God mode) and learned a few things. Would like to go DA with you sometime when you have the chance. <>
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Originally posted by Hooligan
P-51 is heavier and has less drag than an La-7, it should catch an La-7 in a dive...
Hooligan
La7 doing 550 then the pony must have been doing over that 575 or 600mph. hmmm chops throttle and pulls up at this speed pony would loose wings. pony looses wing at a much slower speed than this.
I think though you gave him to much time to slow down. he was 6000 yds behind ya you should have turn and HO'ed him LOL.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Yup ... forgot about that ... I have to agree. :D
BTW Shane ... observed one of your DA sessions last week (God mode) and learned a few things. Would like to go DA with you sometime when you have the chance. <>
sure thing, just ask if you see me in the arena.
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I remember one of those Lala-7 doubling back on my 109G2 after merging at a combined speed of some 700mph - and catching back up to me! BS.
I am with MrLars. I will kill an LA7 with any chance I get. Not wishing to gloat, but here is a film (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/film82.zip) of me doing just that. I was in a CHOG, and they fly like lumps of wood. I knew that I had to resist getting into a turn fight, or I would be dog meat - look what happened to Boones in the film. Only thing for me to do was maintain alt and E. I didn't get him on the first pass or the second, but conserved E by zooming rather than trying to turn into him. Classic B&Z. I love it!
Hooligan! :) I tried diving on a LA7 in my P47D25, and with the plane shaking itself to bits I could not catch the LA7, even with an alt advantage. Bastige got away. :(
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Originally posted by beet1e
I remember one of those Lala-7 doubling back on my 109G2 after merging at a combined speed of some 700mph - and catching back up to me! BS.
I am with MrLars. I will kill an LA7 with any chance I get. Not wishing to gloat, but here is a film (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/film82.zip) of me doing just that. I was in a CHOG, and they fly like lumps of wood. I knew that I had to resist getting into a turn fight, or I would be dog meat - look what happened to Boones in the film. Only thing for me to do was maintain alt and E. I didn't get him on the first pass or the second, but conserved E by zooming rather than trying to turn into him. Classic B&Z. I love it!
Hooligan! :) I tried diving on a LA7 in my P47D25, and with the plane shaking itself to bits I could not catch the LA7, even with an alt advantage. Bastige got away. :(
I don't get it, why didn't you reverse at the merge? Considering that the 109G-2 has excellent acceleration and climb, you should have little trouble in forcing him to break and run, or dogfight against a more agile fighter.
As to the CHog, or any other F4U, high-speed turning is excellent. Zoom is also very good. Personally, I never sweat Lavochkins while flying the CHog, simply because as long as I stuff the Hizookas in his face, he's neutered. Last night I had an La-7 flown by a guy known in the CT (where he usually can be found) as a good stick make several runs on my CHog from about 3k above (initially). I simply turned into his attack time and time again till he finally made a mistake, At that point, I rolled onto his 6 at 650 yards and vaporzied the Lavochkin. Never run from La-7s. Instead, head straight at them challenging the pilot to fight or run. Just never, ever give them your tail.
As to P-47s: I suspect you wasted your alt by diving too steep. I always point the nose where I expect him to be rather than at where he is. Another option is to keep your alt and follow, waiting to see if he should reverse. Either way, you should have plenty of E in the bank, just don't waste it.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing your a great stick and this isnt a challange. But the La7 eats Chogs. That was the beauty of the thing. When it came out it put the chog and the niki imedialty on the defensive.
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Originally posted by Pongo
But the La7 eats Chogs. That was the beauty of the thing. When it came out it put the chog and the niki imedialty on the defensive.
On paper, the La-7 has a considerable performance advantage. Yet, tactics can often upset the "paper" advantage.
For example, if I have an altitude advantage the Lavochkin is in deep bandini. If I'm co-alt, he's getting a face full of Hispanos. The same goes when it's above me.
My method of dealing with La-7s centers around managing my E carefully. Especially in CHogs or DHogs, where acceleration is miserable. On the other hand, If I'm flying the F4U-4, I relish running into Lavochkins. This tour I've lost 2 aircraft to La-7s, both while landing (actually on the landing roll or just about to touch down on the airfield) deadstick, one being an La-7, the other an IL-2. In exchange, I've killed 24 of the "Russian Rockets", nearly 1/3 of them with the Dora, and even one with the IL-2.
It boils down to proper tactics for the specific situation. Make 'em fight against your fighter's strengths, which largely, if not completely negates their edge in pure performance.
My regards,
Widewing
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Well okay.... I thought my question was a fair and honest attempt to get a answer from experienced players I did not know my question would bring out the loosers (Odepius, MANDOBLE )
You admitted to being in a LA7.Ya gotta expect flack:rolleyes:
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Sounds like your pony both cut throttle and went to maneuvering flaps and beyond. It's one of the great advantages of the p51 over the La7, that it has the ability to release it's speed quickly and get into a good fight position early. I do that sort of thing all the time, so am not surprised at all that it happened.
Also, the Mustang is well suited for diving. It can rip it's wings off, but if you can minimize the wing stress in turns, you can stay in control at very high speeds. Sounds like you ran into a good pony driver though.
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"It boils down to proper tactics for the specific situation. Make 'em fight against your fighter's strengths, which largely, if not completely negates their edge in pure performance. - Widewing"
For all those that piss and moan about the so-called "uber" La-7, read the above quote, memorize it, execute it.
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At any altitude below 7.5 k the LA7 should never lose against a P51 given equal energy at merge.
Above 10 k the P51 given equal energy at merge can disengage at will and will dictate the fight, dicate but not necessarily win.
In the example given I would have reversed and took the fight to the P51, a good stick can soon negate the 2k advantage.
Just my opinion
wipass