Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lord dolf vader on April 26, 2003, 03:32:47 AM
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i had a disagreement with fariz tonight about lag he asserted that hi lag was actually a disadvantage online i believe otherwise. i did have to ask him 4 times before he admitted it was average 700 to 800ms ( wonder what a bad day is ). having seen the really odd stuff that happens with really hi lag connecs. it drives me to distraction when he brags about his skill and destroys missions for fun when the "skill" seems to be based on working a really bad connec. for instance my squad was attacking a base when suddenly a la5 appears over the base, as in teleported 3k above us. then proceeds to ho one 30 mm armed a8 after another till all 8 are gone with no damage at all? then declares over open channel he will now take the prize, our goon. 6 guys just logged in disgust.
here is my take on lag. bomber with 50 ms connec fighter with 800 ms connec closing dead 6, buff sees fighter d 1.8 fighter sees buff at d.8 both perfect aim and open fire at max range buff never gets in range fighter smokes buff. (distances are a guess to show the idea of how lagg effects perceived distance)
2 fighters closing perfect ho strait and level all things identical. both with perfect aim open up at max distance one with 50 ms lagg one with 800 who dies.
2 fighters locked in sicssors one has 800 ms lag on has 50ms suddenly the 50 ms connec fighter dies to single 37 mm hit but sees victors plane is pointed 90 degrees out of direction to hit shooting phantoms. lagg caused by 800 ms connec? or 50 ms connec or sever ?
just want to know if I'm wrong as fariz asserted.
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A high Lagg generaly has the advantage.
It's something to do with gravity.
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Are you someone I know? cause this happened to one of my squads 190 missions as well.
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its bombadil hey there pooh :)
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Originally posted by Seeker
A high Lagg generaly has the advantage.
It's something to do with gravity.
Seeker and how can anyone trust you now that you are 40?:rolleyes:
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I played for 3 years or so with a dial-up that gave me a 230-260ms connect. The past 4 months I've been on an ADSL line that gives me a 70-80ms connect. The only realy noticable difference I can see is that my gunnery has improved and I save ammo because the damage shows up on my FE faster. I never bothered to enter the game when my connect was above 350ms or had a varriance of over 75ms from my dial-up connection. My ADSL has an average of 5-15ms variance.
IMO, having an ISP that gives a connect of over 500ms is borderline and creates situations and frustrations as discribed by the original poster.
I've never been an advocate of creating an arena for highspeed connects and a seperate one for dial-up connects. A better solution seems to me to be a seperate arena for connects over a set number, say 700ms. If spiltting the community is an issue and denial of entry into the arenas for slow connects isn't acceptable then there is no solution....we'll just have to deal with it.
Regardless of the type of connect, any connect that has variance of over 200ms should, IMO, be denied entry. Kinda harsh but necessary for quality of play...again, IMO.
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I think a High Speed conect only arena is an excellent idea.
Either make it only adls or cable or only those with 150 or less ping.
The big frustration as the arena gets full is the lag anyway.So lag may be costing them customers.
Could you imagine AH2. middle of a campaign and some lag monster takes down your whole squad.
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Originally posted by Pongo
I think a High Speed conect only arena is an excellent idea.
Either make it only adls or cable or only those with 150 or less ping.
The big frustration as the arena gets full is the lag anyway.So lag may be costing them customers.
Could you imagine AH2. middle of a campaign and some lag monster takes down your whole squad.
I disagree with this. A good dial-up that has a latency of 200-400ms isn't a problem at all unless you're in a HO situation. It's the variance in the connect, whether it's ADSL, cable or dial-up, that adversly effects gameplay the most.
A cable connect may give exellent ping times but the nature of cable and it's degradiation in quality when the network is in heavy use can cause much more problems associated with variance than a steady 200-300ms dial-up that has little variance.
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i think just cutting out the 500 plus guys from fighters forcing them to get a decent connection.) would pretty much totaly fix the problem.
it hard to imagine somone with 16 times the optimum lag is considered playable. laughably so when the perp brags about it being a skill. untill a whole squade gets whiped out while he laughs then its not funny. and needs addressing by the powers that be.
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While I agree that high ping rates (is that the term?) is a pain. I have to disagree with cutting the person that has high rates out, because generally its not their fault.
I have cable.. I live on the other side of the world. My ping is 260 and most of the trouble occurs inside the US. eg. I have 14 hops to the server. From here to the west coast is fine. It goes crazy (sometimes) from there, generally around 10/12th hop.
I'd object greatly to paying 15USD and to then being told.. sorry your lag is too high. Particularly on a weekend/primetime for the US. In fact most of the time I log off because of the high % of warping/lagg I see.
I dont see a real answer unfortenately it isn't a perfect world.
My 2c's worth:eek:
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FJTR, the problem occurs because one or more of your hops is by satellite. Light only travels 300Mm/s and the satellites are (approx) a little less than 50Mm away, so the trip is 300 ms right there.
Fortunately, data lines tend to be prioritised to go by cable.
But seperate servers for America, Europe, and Asia might not be a bad idea.
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If Fariz is around i go fight somewhere else.
I learnt long ago that he has a bad connect to AH.
How would you feel about a 1v1 F6F v Yak9U was a good fight lasted a few minutes but the ending sucked.
Basically i saw the Yak break away and fly away level, so i turned to chase got lined up nicely behind wondering why no evasives, when all of a sudden took massive amount of hits in a split second and aircraft had bits falling off everywhere.
It was as if every bullet fired had been stored up and suddenly all let go at the same time.
I have fought with him other times and its been ok but once bitten twice shy.
He has to connect from a long way away and may not have any choice on ISP.
I do not believe he is manipulating the connect for any advantage as i am sure it must work against him at times as well.
But if a Fariz mission is up i choose to fight elsewhere.
Some things we just gotta live with, if a lot of people were doing this then i would agree something would need to be done but as it is one day his connect may improve until then grit yer teeth and fight elsewhere.
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That is how myths are created. "And then a warrior came, and alone killed 8 190a8 in a HOs, and demon Lag was on his side..."
I even do not know what to do here, laugh or cry. I would better laugh, though every single time I kill Towd AKA bombadil AKA whatever, he came online and tell that my kills are only attribute on my lag, not skills, and every time he kills me it is something like "another dead lag warrior". I tried for about 20 times to explain him during 3 years I know him, that lag (NOT warps, because people has totally messing this things) are more a disadvantage, that advantage. I also asked him how lag gives me advantage, and what I read here IS not a real advantageous of lag. Read lad advantage/disadvantage list bellow.
About that thing with a flight of a8. This happend several weeks ago, during server warping problem, and it was server problem which probably created problems. But beside that the fairy tail about la5 which survive 8 190a8 HO shall be attributed to a high immagination of Mr. Towd. I remember 1 HO for sure, may be was 1 more, though that is what I doublt. I got 4 of them, and warp may be were during initial stage, when I appeared other the field, but not during the fight itself. Again, warps were not mine, they were servers. I am warping not much more than any average AH Joe.
Now, hereunder the list of high lag advantages/disadvantages:
Advantages:
1) Longer response time let you kill your opponent during HO, because it is a delay between his ammo hits you and you die. By HO I mean also attack against GVs, GV duel, or bombers attack, i.e. any situation when both have guns pointing at each other.
2) Longer responce make lagger look more distant, than he is in reality (about 10-150 ft difference to the "normal" lag depending on relative speed, laggers lag, opponent lag etc.). That gives lagger advantage over enemy because enemy may consider him over the max range of the weapon, while he actually within it.
3) Enemy can't be sure where laggers guns pointing, which may make him to respond later on the "nose pull for fire" thing, and it may result in the defenders death.
Distadvatages:
1) Longer response time let lagger's opponent to kill him during HO, because it is a delay between lagger ammo hits and his death. This one ballance advantage #1. For skillful pilot lag HO is more a problem, than a win, because in a situation of 1 vs many, where HO is a valid tactics, chances of survive is less. Same with attack against "soft" ground targets or tank duels.
2) Lagger can't be sure where enemy guns are pointing at any given time, and this is for ALL fights he take part in. So, normally lagger shall predict when enemy will pull for shot, not react on it. This make defensive fighting for lagger more intuitive. Ballance #3 advantage, and the more skillful is the pilot, the more disadvantages this this is.
3) Lagger has every ack at field to die with big delay, and continue to fire on him while acks are in fact dead.
4) Lagger do not know when to stop fire at target, and shall again use his aproximate judgment if target destroyed by the number of bullets he fired.
5) During vulching or spawn camping chances of lagger to get kill are much less than those of people around him. They see enemy fighter on runway or gv on spawn faster, so can react faster.
Summury: Simply saying, I am sure that the more skillful is pilot, the more lag is a problem, not help for him. Only real advantage of lag, which has not disadvantages, is #2, but experienced pilots not often fire at extreme range.
Now, to compare really lag and no lag flying you shall try both. I can't do it, because it is no technical ability to do so within my country, I am already at the best ISP, and I am paying almost 2th more money to have no warpy, and 200 ms less laggy connect. Several facts though, I have not seen a single person who after switching to smaller lag wanted to go back. I personally with a jump to a less laggy connect got better k/d and gunning % within next week.
If someone want to know where my guns pointing when I fire, duel me and ask for a film.
If I forgot some advantages/disadvantages, let me know pls.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
If Fariz is around i go fight somewhere else.
I learnt long ago that he has a bad connect to AH.
How would you feel about a 1v1 F6F v Yak9U was a good fight lasted a few minutes but the ending sucked.
One more person mess lag and warps.
What you explain is a warps. You should be very unlucky to be killed in a warp by me, probably it was not other fighters around and at start of warping you flew straight. In this case warping was not apparent, and I could kill you by mistake. When warp was clear I almost never fired.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
i think just cutting out the 500 plus guys from fighters forcing them to get a decent connection.) would pretty much totaly fix the problem.
it hard to imagine somone with 16 times the optimum lag is considered playable. laughably so when the perp brags about it being a skill. untill a whole squade gets whiped out while he laughs then its not funny. and needs addressing by the powers that be.
Towd, your flying is just not good enough. Use the energy of your whines for making your skills better, and you will not need excuses next time. Those better AH pilot never have problems with killing me, just because they are better.
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Fariz that happened long ago, you would almost certainly have been on your old and slower connection.
Its good to hear you do have a better connection now, it has been a long time since we bumped into each other, i shall have to take you off my dont fight list ;)
Btw i know it was a warp Fariz but connections of 800ms generally mean you are going through a lot of hops which greatly increase the chance of warps happening.
There is nothing you or anybody else can do about it as i said above we just gotta live with it.
As far as i know HTC have still not cured the server problems, so any complaints of warps at the moment are best ignored.
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Ok, this is going to make me sound like a jerk, but I'm not. Fariz's lag isn't that big a deal. I had several fights against him a week or so ago (I think), I saw him warp a whopping once out of a good 7-8 fights.
What is happening here is you guys are getting killed by someone who is simply better than you and you are making excuses about it.
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No, Urchin, it's not you who are the jerk. And, you are correct in your position. This is yet another example of "whinefest" (TM) where excuse is easier than accepting fact. Warping does suck and it happens to everyone. It hinders all equally.
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Originally posted by Urchin
What is happening here is you guys are getting killed by someone who is simply better than you and you are making excuses about it.
What?!?! That doesnt happen here. Ever.
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It is an advantage. The lagger is tottaly used to the effect of his condition. His adverseries are not. He knows what the likly effects will be. They are supprised by it and make decisions not taking the rediculous lag into account.
They should just not allow it in the game.
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As long as the player has good continuity (i.e. you don't see lots of warps), lag just isn't that big of a deal. The effects are worse for the player who has the lag because it affects EVERYTHING in his arena, not just a single aircraft. This is ranting over nothing.
Hooligan
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sorry but the 8 190s incident was real and exactly factual. your incredibly laggy connec let you cut thru 8 of us ask pretty much any of the wild sau chances are they were there. and the braggin about killing the goon is after is also true. i was the last 190 you didnt even try to evade on my fe and never took any hit i could see.
ask around its totaly true dude. you need to get a decent connection or move on. personality has nothing to do with it. i dont know you from jobe. but i am tired of dieing from your connection witch this tread verifies is a common experience and has little or nothing to do with "skill" you have learned over time to work your probly highest in the game connection.
please fix it. if you can't ohh well guess ill have to run away also.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
sorry but the 8 190s incident was real and exactly factual. your incredibly laggy connec let you cut thru 8 of us ask pretty much any of the wild sau chances are they were there. and the braggin about killing the goon is after is also true. i was the last 190 you didnt even try to evade on my fe and never took any hit i could see.
ask around its totaly true dude. you need to get a decent connection or move on. personality has nothing to do with it. i dont know you from jobe. but i am tired of dieing from your connection witch this tread verifies is a common experience and has little or nothing to do with "skill" you have learned over time to work your probly highest in the game connection.
please fix it. if you can't ohh well guess ill have to run away also.
What was factual, 8 HOs with 190a8? You create a fantasy in your head, then start judging situation basing on it. I killed 4, not 8. I HO 1, at most 2, not 8. Even if it was a warp, it was when it started, not during the fight. This warp was not mine, but servers. Beside that this strory is true, except what you call bragging was a reaction on your whine #6585485.
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from personal experiance lag helps. enemy dont tend to see you or your bullets before its to late. dont even bother trying to scissor someone with a bad connection you will lose. there are drawbacks but when you can win most acm battles because of lag its not that bad.
i was behind a firewall for a bit(4 weeks) that shot my ping to 700+ and my k/d ratio went sky high.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
from personal experiance lag helps. enemy dont tend to see you or your bullets before its to late. dont even bother trying to scissor someone with a bad connection you will lose. there are drawbacks but when you can win most acm battles because of lag its not that bad.
i was behind a firewall for a bit(4 weeks) that shot my ping to 700+ and my k/d ratio went sky high.
Yeap, but you dont tend to see their bullets before it is too late as well.
Interesting bit about scissors, can you explain pls.?
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Lag or not, the problem with Fariz is, that when you're at any attitude and speed anywhere within the front quarter of his aircraft less than 1k out you're dead.
Nothing to do with Lag, it's just his gunnery that is overmodeled.
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bad connections work both ways.
warps that are caused by network "hickups" will make the player warp on everybody elses' machine AND THEY WILL WARP ON HIS.
as for lag, I remember skuzzy repeatedly stating that ping times better then 300ms are all the same for the game.
guys playing outside of the US will probably have more IP's to go through and therefor are more prone to warps.
Bozon
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the bit about scissors is how you beat me with lag . on our last scissors. on my fe ( 50 ms) you never had a shot at any time deflection or no. but then again im seeing you where you were about 2 seconds ago. i watch you turn off ( you had hit me on your fe then even tho you never had a shot on mine) and then i get 2 bangs about another second after that. im not being emotional your connec literaly gives you kills. your assertation that you have no advantage is just wrong. just imagining you dont know is hard to believe coupled with your bragging about imaginary skill is truly annoying. thus my tone.