Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: StSanta on August 01, 2000, 06:36:00 AM
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A few days ago, there was a jolly amusing discussion on ch1 regarding Luftwaffe, its duties and the consequences of it doing what it was sent out to do.
Basically, the argument went like this: since LW fought for a murderous madman who slaughtered millions of innocent civilians, what the LW did was in fact aid in these murders by buying the nazi's time. Even after the war was lost, the Luftwaffe Nazi's (not my words) continued to fight, enabling even more innocents to be killed.
When it was pointed out that the allieds were firebombing German civilians, and that increasingly, the LW went up to defend cities and the civilians within them the retort was "what about London?"
Well, two wrongs doesn't make one right. Maybe the allieds should have learned that it is not possible to break the morale of a people by bombing cities.
At any rate, my take on it is this; if I was a German and saw the consequences of firebombing, I would try to stop it. I would not fight for the madman, but for my fellow Germans. Taking in account the brutality of the Germans and the Russians on the Eastern front, I'd want to hold off the enemy for as long as possible. Galland sad in a 1991 interview:
"But we did fight. We fought because we felt we had to, for better conditions. Unconditional surrender was the very worst thing. I always hoped to split the Russians from the Western Allies. It was our hope in the dark. If the Western Allies had said, "We agree to certain conditions", the war would have been shorter."
The individuals on the allied side of the discussion continued saying that "they still continued killing American boys". Of course, the easy retort would be "the bombers continued killing civilians" but that is another issue.
Note: I am in no way trying to defend or justify the evil German regime. It just feels a little wrong that the LW should be considered murderous butcherers directly responsible for the Holocaust.
The way I see it, they were soldiers doing their job. If I was born and alive in Germany during the same time, I doubt I would have been able to first resist the seduction of the mass psychosis, and secondly stand idly by as bombs fell on civilians.
I must reiterate that I do not condone or admire the Germans for what they did to civilians. I also must stress that I know there were committed nazi's in the LW. But, that is not my point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Thoughts?
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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My first tought was "im not gonna touch this one with an 10 yard stick"
The Luftwaffe was built by Nazis, nuff said.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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If people says that the LW was a murder machine and its pilots were a bunch of nazis because they served their country well, but under the command of an sick nazi madman, then I say that the B29 crews that bombed Tokio, Osaka,all the Japanese cities with incendiary bombs,are remorseless war criminals.
And the british night bomber crews were a bunch of war criminals because they bombed cities not factories. And not to talk about Dresden bombing and the glorious vision of american escort fighters straffing civilians on the streets...
Ah,of course, not to talk about the Red Air Force, they were all a bunch of monster communist war criminals because they fought well for their country, a country lead by a devil of bigger dimensions than Hitler, Stalin.
The argument of LW prejudged because they flew and fought for Germany when it was a nazi country is so lacking ,and so repulsive because of its lack of objetiveness, that I really feel the need to puke when I read about it.
To all the squareheads who thing that Luftwaffe pilots was a bunch of nazis:
http://www.411.playnet.com/interviews.htm (http://www.411.playnet.com/interviews.htm)
Read about the Brown-Stiegler interview. All the 3 parts. And after you read them, you'll surely learn a lot about german pilots in World War II, and after it. Stiegler hit a man who called him Nazi repeatedly, and I am sure that most LW pilots would've done just the same.
Damn this hole matter sickens me...men who bravely fought to defend their country are judged because the monster who ruled their country...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]
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Hitler realy didn't give a toejam about the Luftwaffe, he regarded it solely as a force to assist Panzers in ground operations and used it as a scapegoat for all his blunders.
Operation Bodenplatte was originally planned to aid in the Ardennes offensive. Bodenplatte or Baseplate turned out to be a high cost in experienced LW leaders and equipment, which could have been used in a massive action against the U.S. bombing offensive namely Der Grosse Schlag(Great Blow) planned by Galland.
Goring too was a fool, Genralfieldmarshall Milch approached him in November of 43 stating that there needed to be an increase in the number of LW day fighters to stem the American air offensive, mainly the bombers, Goring replied that the American bombing is "fanciful and BEYOND American industrial capacity."
In the end the Luftwaffe found itself as 2nd priority to Hitler as it always was and finding itself fighting the Panzers for much needed fuel.
The men of the LW were protecting their homeland, try and put yourself in their shoes, were you going to let people you don't know anything about bomb your countrie's cities and threaten the lives of your loved ones?
p.s. I doubt many of the LW on the Western Front knew of the attrocities happening against the Jews, I know that JG 52 witnessed such killings in Byelaya Tserkov, Ukraine. After the war Hermann Graf lost his mind because of what he witnessed and repressed in his mind, he joined the organization of Communist ex-Wehrmacht officers and claimed that everything he did during the war was wrong.
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
(http://www.mindspring.com/~nathownsj00/JG54Sig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-01-2000).]
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C'mon guys! This is a sim depicting WW2 combat, not a political arena where one is judged by their squadron affliations! (I could be wrong on that, some of you are seemingly doing so!)
Lets just enjoy our historic and non-historic squadrons the way they are without political affliations. If you want to talk about politics, go the officers club and duke it out, leave it off the open buffer, it a waste of your typing skills! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO= VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Know your limits and then go beyond.."
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
Click here for VMF-323 Website (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache/index.htm)
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I spare no class or cult or creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton
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Hunh. I used to think we were on the 'right' side.. you know; the 'good guys'.
We didn't start the fight. We didn't wanna be there. It was a 'european war'.
So; suprise of surprises; we get into a european war via the drop of some bombs on the 7th fleet in the pacific. Who'd a guessed?
Anyway; once it was over; rather than loading the defeated nations military; it's officers; it's politicians; it's educated citizens and their leading industrialists into boxcars and giving them a taste of their own justice we instead gave them back their nations; allowed them to re-establish their rights as free citizens and paid for the rebuilding of their countrys.
Not to mention the cold war... if not for us; they'd be speakin Russian from Ireland to South Africa.
And we have been hated ever since. 'Opportunists' is the kindest of labels we bear. They bristile when we suggest that fighting for an evil system; a society that burns books; a race of people and preaches 'Master Race' and anounces it's intention to deny a free people of another Nation of it's rights could be construed as being a 'nazi'.
Hmmmmmm; maybe we made a mistake...
Hang
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Hunh. I used to think we were on the 'right' side.. you know; the 'good guys'
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Error. US was in the right side,the allied side...
But that DOESNT make ALL US fighting people in WWII automatically the "good guys". You could be a F**** Son of a b*** in the allied side, and the fact that you are in the right side doeesnt make you a good guy. For me Harris was one of the worst War Criminals in WWII, and he was (and still is) admired as a hero...While valiant No-nazi german expilots were menaced ,insulted and spitted by their own country people because they fighted to defend Germany and the same people who spitted them after the war...a nazi germany ,yes, but still their home...Vae victis
We didn't start the fight. We didn't wanna be there. It was a 'european war'.
So? that allowed the US to reduce Tokio to ashes?...the goal doesnt justify the methods,hang. A basically good crusade can end in a criminal series of action...it all depends on attitudes, and while most on allied side were good, some were BAD...near of that in the Nazi side.
So; suprise of surprises; we get into a european war via the drop of some bombs on the 7th fleet in the pacific. Who'd a guessed?
Be objective, Hang...FDR wanted to get US into the European war at all costs. PH was a bloody sad day but it have him the reason to get involved in the war. WIth no PH US would've gone into the war, anyway...later and with other reasons, but they'd been there anyway.
Anyway; once it was over; rather than loading the defeated nations military; it's officers; it's politicians; it's educated citizens and their leading industrialists into boxcars and giving them a taste of their own justice we instead gave them back their nations; allowed them to re-establish their rights as free citizens and paid for the rebuilding of their countrys.
Luckily they learned the lessons from WWI. Had they done another Versalles, Europe would be now a Hate nest, isntead the European Union.
As I said, Allied were the good guys. Axis the bad guys. But there were VERY BAD people indeed on the allied side and there were really chivalrous people on the Axis side (ask Sakai why didnt he kill that civiliand DC-3 in Dutch indies in 1942, or ask Stiegler why didnt he kill that defenceless B17 when he was one kill away from being awarded his knight's cross ,and he was risking a court martial for not killling the enemy...
Luftwaffe pilots were german. Some were nazis, for sure. Most ,for sure, weren't. Same in GErman Army, same in Kriegsmarine (Lindemann, Bismarck's captain ,was a active antinazi, and Lutjens refused to wear the Nazi insignia, wearing the Kaiserliche Marine's insignias in their place...
They defended their country and their people. And 55 years later they are still hated because the war was started by a syphilitic mad nazi monster that ruled their country because (YES BECAUSE) British' and French' unstoppable desire of revenge after WWI...
As I said...Vae Victis...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]
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Stupid thread. These things will never be settled, no matter how much folks argue about them.
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jochen
Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) Warbirds
T-34/76 to Aces High!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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This isthe kind of thread that could make me think of leavin AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
Maik
German and still no Nazi, never was and never will be!
But probably ONLY born americans belong to the good guys.
Congrats to ur BRIGHT history.
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 08-01-2000).]
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Some guys really didn't read their history books in school...
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Maik,,, Be glad it so bright. Consider the alternative
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Originally posted by Staga:
Some guys really didn't read their history books in school...
Aye soupurt pooblik idimakatiun!
-SW
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Well all I can say is for anyone who wants to depict the whole Luftwaffe as Nazi nutters then they should read "Heaven Next Stop - A Luftwaffe Pilot At War" by Gunther Bloemertz one of the famous 'Abbeville Boys' of JG26. I haven't read a factual book thats stirred so much emotion while reading it. Read that and then tell me they were all a bunch of animals and not men that in the end were fighting to save their own families.
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Originally posted by Rooster:
Consider the alternative
THe alternative if no USA involved at all in european matters?
WWI won by Central powers, but one that weakened Germany a lot. Results: no Versalles, no postwar depression in GErmany ,maybe Fascist government on France, but not very probable, imo.
Austria-Hungary would've disintegrated just as it did, it was too weak to avoid its fate...maybe the Balcans would've had another solution better than Yugoslavia,maybe a multinational Balcans like the one today...avoiding things that are still resounding today, and are a shame for the modern Europe...
For sure I like that more than Versalles, Nazi Party, and WWII...
Only speculation, of course...but as you can see Sometimes a not-so-bright US past dont seem so bad isnt it?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]
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I shouldn't have wrote this.
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 08-01-2000).]
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This thread belongs in the Off Topic Forum.
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For those of you that don't speak Latin:
Vae Victus - Woe to the damned.
RAM, bud, check your spelling next time will ya? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Flakbait
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Hunh. I used to think we were on the 'right' side.. you know; the 'good guys'.
I doubt anyone sane is arguing the allied side wasn't the "good guys". My intention with this discussion wasn't to dispute this, but rather have a more balanced look at the LW and its efforts.
We didn't start the fight. We didn't wanna be there. It was a 'european war'.
Again, this is not what I wish to discuss. You are right, of course, but this is a tangent discussion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
So; suprise of surprises; we get into a european war via the drop of some bombs on the 7th fleet in the pacific. Who'd a guessed?
And we're all glad you did. Also glad you had a competent president who weren't much for isolationism. Why can't you find such a man again, instead of Bussssh and Grwaorgh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway; once it was over; rather than loading the defeated nations military; it's officers; it's politicians; it's educated citizens and their leading industrialists into boxcars and giving them a taste of their own justice we
instead gave them back their nations; allowed them to re-establish their rights as free citizens and paid for the rebuilding of their countrys.
Well, I guess we all learned from the Versailles peace and wanted a stable, prosperous Europe. One the US could offload its industrial capacity on. Marshall help was a stroke of genius; borrow money to Europeans so they can buy stuff produced by the *massive* American industry. All parts win.
Not to mention the cold war... if not for us; they'd be speakin Russian from Ireland to South Africa.
Maybe, maybe not. But to say you did it out of pure good will is erroneous; the US had and has a huge stake in a stable, democratic Europe. Much like in the Gulf war, the fact that there are other benefits than the obvious (such as ousting a dictator and "liberating" a country) is a quite neato thingie.
And we have been hated ever since. 'Opportunists' is the kindest of labels we bear. They bristile when we suggest that fighting for an evil system; a society that burns books; a race of people and preaches 'Master Race' and anounces it's intention to deny a free people of another Nation of it's rights could be construed as being a 'nazi'.
I don't hate Americans. I just find them to be ugly opportunists who are ignorant and uneducated gun toting right wing fascists
<G, D, R> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hmmmmmm; maybe we made a mistake...
Yeah, would be nice to have Europe, China, the Soviet Union plus various satellite state as enemies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
As far as this thread being uncomfortable to some; my apologies. It seems such topics draw me in for some reason. As far as it being superfluous, unneeded and without result, I heartily disagree. As long as it remains a discussion and not a stick-to-yer-guns type *argument*, it is worth my time.
And, finally, I am quite capable of deciding whether it is a waste of *my* time myself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). To you, a waste, to me, interesting.
And, thanks a great deal to American intervention, this is a right and how it is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Back to topic: we've seen some posts dealing with how the LW was not a butcher force, and some supporting anecdotes. Is there any suggesting it was actively working to buy time for the Holocaust and not really interested in defending the Fatherland?
<S!> to all.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Flak,
RAM is right. It is "Vae Victis" (plural, that is).
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Vae Victus---------->singular
Vae Victis---------->plural
Dont know much Latin, but that is one of the few things I know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[edit]Hehe Gatt...simultaneous post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)[edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]
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I love this statement featured in one of the best websites on the net pertaining to the German Armed Forces of WWII. The statement is as follows:
This Web site is dedicated to the history, research and study of the German Military and the WWII Axis Allies during the period between 1919-1945.
This site is not about the politics of Nazism, but the History of the German Armed forces of the period 1919 to the end of WWII. The extensive use of symbols and images within this site is done so for historical purposes and for no other reason and should not been viewed as an attempt to glorify the tragic events of the WWII era.
This site does not support in any way those who would condone or embrace individuals, groups and/or organizations that are in any way intolerant, racist, violent, etc. If those are your views, you are not welcome at this site.
Through simple photos and words this web site hopes to preserve with an impartial and objective approach the history, both large and small, of the people, units, formations, and organizations of the period.
It is through education, study and research that one may come to their own conclusions about WWII and the German experience, those that do not attempt to do so are guilty of ignorance. Only through honest, objective and impartial research can one ever hope to understand the plight of so many millions of people during the Second World War.
This site is respectfully dedicated to all those who suffered and died during the most tragic war in human history, on all sides. Also, let not the sacrifices of those Germans both living and dead who served their Country rightly or wrongly, be forgotten.
The site may be found at: http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/start.html (http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/start.html)
JagdNine
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LOL.. yah can of worms.
They teach a diffrent history in europe... and japan. Interesting details are missing. Like the Battan Deathmarch. The rape and slaughter of our civilian nurse corps. The slaughter in Shanghi; the rape of China and Korea. Medical expermintaion on POW's. They forget that the Bomb saved more lives than it took... on both sides. Using only TWO showed great restraint.
The same in europe.. whole chapters are missing. Yah; Bomber Harris was responsible for decisions that lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians... as well as for the decisions that brought the war to it's end via the utter destruction of the german workforce. Yep.. they were 'civilians'; and they were targets. A shame.. but wars are like that. Civilians and their workplaces are no less a target today than they were 50 years ago.
My only regeret is Harris's impacable decision to send his crews in without decent defences.. those bomber crews suffered horrible losses; and Bomber Command came damn close in the early days to being destroyed completly as a force.
Patton was a jerk too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And, seems to me; that if the LW was so full of righteous indignat officers offended by the slaughter of innocents by their government; they coulda hopped in their planes and flown enmasse to switzerland. War woulda been over the next week. They made their choice.. and now children of a diffrent generation get indignant when the horror of what their fathers HELPED CREATE AND PRESERVE is hoisted in their faces. Get over it. They fought and died for their 'fatherland'; and lost, and the next generation expects them to be remebered as shining knights or righteousness? Nope.. sorry. No cigar. No sympathy. None.
I try to look at the bright side... and consider that I LIKE being an American. I enjoy freedom of speach; travel; choice in all aspects of my life. And I thank and respect my fellow citizens that took a stand and served.. and especially those that sacrificed all to bring this nation, and the world, thru it's darkest days... then and now.
Hang
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I wonder how many LW officers were aware of the holocaust...
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German 'work force' wasn't the problem nor did that bring the war to an end... Germany industry picked up during 43 and 44, the problem was lack of fuel and experienced leaders.
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Ah, revisionist history!
Better reading than the real thing, for sure.
Fiction of the highest water.
As twilight descends upon those who were actually there, fought the fight, faced the danger.......
....we shall not listen to THEM.
Oh, No, we shall listen to the legions of young, modern, educated scholars. These enlightened few will tell us why and for what goals the men of the 1940's fought and died.
Viewed through the prism of the "situational ethics" of the late 1990's, we will come to understand that there was no right and wrong in those simple days.
I bet a timely "group hug" could have avoided all that unpleasantness.
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Pyro please lock and remove this thread.
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JG 2's current cannon magnet
Milo
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Stop whining
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LOL Toad. Yah big lug. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok; my toe is outta the water. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
...but I think my Care-Bear was arrested for owning a typewriter. He's been dissapeared; and the bad guys now have an overstuffed mattress...
Hang
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interesting, we just entered 21 millenium and
some minds still in 1940, yet this people play a sim depicting WW2 combat, Ironic, ain't it?
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Gh0stFT
A.K.A. Winner of the Desk Envy
"you had to be careful in dogfights when you were
turning hard, flying on the brink of a stall,
because the buck of the guns was enough to peel
off a few critical miles per hour and make the
Mustang simply stop flying." - Col C. E. "Bud" Anderson
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now this is a fight "breaks bottle on bar" who wants some?
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Ooops (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-01-2000).]
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"Why can't we be frie-ends,
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends,
Why can't we be FRIENDS?"
WAR circa 1970's
(ironic, eh?)
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 08-01-2000).]
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What does all this have to do with flying in Aces High?
Cobra
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Excellent point, Cobra.
I thought the O-Club was specifically designed for this type of pointless argument and speculation.
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
I wonder how many LW officers were aware of the holocaust...
I am sure they had heard of Krystal Nacht, when more than 800 Jews were murdered, 1000 synagogues razed, and all at the urgings of the German government. I am sure they knew the leadership of their country reffered to Jews as rats and vermin, and called them a plague that must be removed from Europe.
WW2 did not begin in 1942. The Luftwaffe was not defending German cities when it invaded Poland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Holland etc. It was gleefully carrying out a war of conquest against smaller weaker countries.
Harris was not a war criminal. He attacked the enemy from the air, in the only way that was open to Britain for much of the war. Bobming the enemy's cities was a tactic dating back to the German Zepplin raids on London in WW1. If the worst thing the Germans had done in WW2 was bombing Rotterdam they would not feel such shame at their country's past. The German war criminals selectively murdered people who were no help to their enemy, who could indeed have helped Germany. Harris orchestrated attacks on the enemy's cities, that supplied the weapons and equipment the Nazi's needed to continue the war.
Germany lost 3-600,000 people from Allied air raids, less than 1% of the total casualties of WW2. If the Allied bombing offensive shortened the war by 2 weeks it helped save lives, not cost them.
"The end justifies the means" is often used by idealists to condemn anything bad dopne in a good cause. I saw a quote which gives the position the Allies faced in WW2 perfectly:
"The most immoral thing we could do was allow oursleves to lose"
Ridding the world of Nazi Germany was the number one priority, and an extra 1% of the total casualties the war caused was seen as a price well worth paying.
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Ok; now back to ailerons and elevators.
Hey; anybody bomb A1 recently?? (all part of the war effort)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
And, seems to me; that if the LW was so full of righteous indignat officers offended by the slaughter of innocents by their government; they coulda hopped in their planes and flown enmasse to switzerland. War woulda been over the next week. They made their choice.. and now children of a diffrent generation get indignant when the horror of what their fathers HELPED CREATE AND PRESERVE is hoisted in their faces. Get over it. They fought and died for their 'fatherland'; and lost, and the next generation expects them to be remebered as shining knights or righteousness? Nope.. sorry. No cigar. No sympathy. None.
I really wonder who you're talking to?
Perhaps you mix up virtual pilots that like to fly in LW squads in a game called Aces High with germans?
Az
381st BG (H)
(http://www.link-goe.de/~m.henze/images/381bg.gif)
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Originally posted by maik:
This isthe kind of thread that could make me think of leavin AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
Maik
German and still no Nazi, never was and never will be!
But probably ONLY born americans belong to the good guys.
Congrats to ur BRIGHT history.
Although I can't specifically remember who said it, one Allied pilot in an interview concerning his combat experiences over Europe during WW2, said he felt little remorse for bombing cities, as it was his belief EVERYONE was trying to kill him, "even if it was just the housewife packing a lunch for her husband to take to work at a factory" she was contributing to the war effort, and ultimately helping those who were pulling the triggers of the guns pointed at him.
Let us not forget one important item:
History books are written by the VICTOROUS
* Question*: Were crimes against humanity committed by ALL Participants? Most definitely!
I was in the US Navy during the 80's (1981 to 1989) and having traveled through out Europe, my impression was that most Europeans liked Americans, with the exception of the French (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I think they hate EVERYONE J <G,D,R>
My step-mother was born and raised in Germany, she was quite young during WW2, however she tells of how her father came home from the Army wounded and disabled, to take came of the farm. Where upon the government would tour by and take most of the produce, then when they tried to hide some of the produce, her father ran a great risk of ending up in a prison somewhere. Her father did not belong to the NAZI party, but her father felt it was his duty to protect his country.
From whom you ask? Why from the people his government said was the enemy. (Does this sound familiar to anyone?)
Just as with a great many people today, there was little concern as to who is/was running the country, most are concerned with day to day living and not politics.
I traveled to Germany with my stepfamily and my father, I talked to my stepmother's dad, I have seen the German people and German countryside…and do you know what? They are no different than anyone else. No fangs, No horns, not even hooked claw-like hands.
Although at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial and later in Vietnam a precedent was set that just obeying orders is not an excuse, many today as was the case then, would rather carry out an order than run the risk of being shot or imprisoned for disobeying.
Let me sum this up with the statement that these are my OPINIONS, also I believe World War Two was a great tragedy, but until mankind matures enough to leave violence behind, it is my belief we can look forward to many more armed conflicts.
In fact I'd venture to state that in my opinion the predator man defines his existence with conflict.
As an example I present this topic, which is but a hairline breadth away from getting ugly.
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/images/Logos.jpg)
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Please, let's take this to the O-Club. Nothing wrong with the exchange of ideas...in the right place.
I've even planted a seed...see: "Be Ye Men Of Valour" in the O-Club.
Enjoy!
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Good post Milenko.
And Toad that O-Club thing really ticks me off. Now we have to exclude Non Coms from the conversation! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You imperialist dog! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 08-01-2000).]
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Thanks NineZ.
Yeah, maybe this is the wrong place for this topic, upon further consideration, I submit for you viewing pleasure and intellectual enjoyment this quote as taken from http://www.411.playnet.com/andreas.htm (http://www.411.playnet.com/andreas.htm)
Lady_"J": "Are there any parting thoughts you would like to leave our readers with?"
Lieutenant Lange: "Yeah I have one point for the readers: If you play a game about WWII then leave the politics and emotions out of it. Just see it as a game with historical data. Don't live the characters out there."[/b]
Good Advise me thinks!!!
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/images/Logos.jpg)
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CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks
BANDITS ON MY SIX!!!! (http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rowgue/goose2.ra)
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Unless you lived, flew, whatever in WWII I don't think its right to make such judgements either way.
Talk to someone whos been in a war and this self-righteous judgement crap suddenly dwindles into insignificance.
There will always be war. There will always be amazinhunks like Hitler. There will always be people who do not realise the ugly truth of the path they are following until its too late. And there will always be guilt afterwards on either side.
Hindsight is a great thing to throw around on a BBS.
Sit down, talk to someone from either side about how it affected them. You'll soon realize that the lines between good guys and bad guys get very blurred very fast.
I'm here for the game. Leave your politics at the door please. If you can't, then please don't play.
-vlkn- out
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Originally posted by NineZ:
And Toad that O-Club thing really ticks me off. Now we have to exclude Non Coms from the conversation! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You imperialist dog! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 08-01-2000).]
9Z I suggest you take that O-Club stuff up with Supreme Overlord, Commander of Joint BBS Forces, Marshal of the Empire Pyro. He's in the Private Dining Room!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I wasn't going to chime in even though I have seen comments here that I find are personally insulting.
I think it is fruitless to look at this situation and not learn something here. This conflict is more than 50 years behind us. People, that war is farging OVER!
If you want to comment on something get back into the game.
The only truism that I can offer is this. War is the ultimate obscenity. There are no real winners. ALL lose whether they started it, joined later, won or lost. The true measure of war are the fields of croses, stars or markers. The loss is in what might have been had those who lost their lives been able to live their lives to fruition.
War is not glorious. There are glorious acts contained IN wartime but those who are participating are all wishing the war was not happening. No one who has been in the position of shedding blood in combat ever wants to go back to it. No family who lost a loved one wants to lose another.
If you cannot get along together then get along apart. Leave each other alone. Just treat others as you would want to be treated.
Lets not let this ever happen again. The war will have truly been a total loss if we as a species cannot learn to make things work out in a better way.
I am not in the position to judge those in command of the forces those days. That job is slated for a desk much higher than mine and it is already occupied. What I am in position to do is, in my own small way, to try and see it does not happen again. So are all of you. Stop hating, learn to get along. Drop traditional grudges.
Nuff said and folding up my soapbox.
Mav
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Well,i was online when this discussion took place. It started with Hristo talkin about (The best pilots flew LW) and in 5 minutes StSanta came in with the bombing of Dresden.
Totally off what was being dicussed. A few of us pointed out that LW & Allied pilots had same skills,just that Allied had a 25 sortie cut off. And the LW had no choice but to fight right through to the end.
Then StSanta brought up Dresden,which had no bearing at all on the topic started by Hristo.
Once it got political and to hot for the online community,i bowed out & contined on with my nightly endeavor. Killin Rooks & Knights (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
The political situation is history, if ya want to know a bit about it pick up a book & read it. Dont bring it into the arena!
Dog out........
[This message has been edited by Wardog (edited 08-01-2000).]
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I am not a Nazi.
I have been flying Bf109G-10s because it gives me the two things I need most to have a shot at surviving: Speed and Climb.
I would prefer to fly an RAf kite, but there is not currently one that gives me a reasonable chance to survive.
I don't believe that the historical actions of the Allies and Axis can really be compared with each other. I will let history speak for itself. Note: According to a German researcher, the USAAF fighters straffing civilians never happened.
In all the time I've been playing with WWII flight sims and participating in WWII flight sim communities, I have only once encountered an fellow player who flew German aircraft because he believed that the Nazis (note that I mean Nazis, not Germans) were the good guys and their beliefs were correct. And you know what? I didn't meet him here. I didn't meet him on CombatSim's EAW forum. I met him at work, at my last job. He was a co-worker.
I have seen no evidence that anybody here is a Nazi.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) to the Mcarthyist WWII Sim Nazi hunters.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Personally I think most of you are missing an important point here...all fighter pilots were linked by their common experience. Read any of the various memiors and the feelings of mutual respect/compassion are there. Based on what I've read 95% of the german pilots were fighting for there country, not there ideology. Being a NAZI is a state of mind, not a geographic location.
Personally I think the german pilots of 44-45 did an outstanding job against formidable odds, that being said Hitler and all who supported him are the darkest stain on our planet. I'd only ask we not confuse the two, not every german was/is a nazi...and not all nazi's are/were german.
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Hmmm.. so as not to be misunderstood; allow me to say that I have spent time in what was then the FRG; and was moved to tears by a small ceremony held in a village near my base annually.
Those folks; as noted above by Milenko; were much like any others I've met the world over; the diffrence being they did what they could to lessen the horror; WHILE it was happening; at great risk to themselves.
War is politics by violence. Usually, it is avoidable. It is always deplorable. But when a great evil arises; all people must decide what they stand for. The lessons learned by the German PEOPLE were many in WWII; and not the least of them were political and social. They are now; again, a great Nation. And they despise Nazism utterly.
60 years ago is not today.. and most whom I've spoken to that served the Reich then expressed a universal sentiment. Regret. Deep, painful regret. No sense of indignation for 'abuse' at the hands of the allies.. no lasting hatred for the western powers. Only regret. They all have my respect.. their choices as individuals ranged from poor to none at all then. Today they have many more choices.. as do those who wish to fan high the flames of hatred here on this BBS; invariably those from a later generation.
I vote for freedom. Freedom of expression; freedom of ideas; and freedom to pursue your dreams... and if you find youself dreaming of Nazi Glory and a 1000 year slave state then you deserve the ruthless bombing of your soul in hell for all eternity.
My aplogies to those folks from Europe who may have misconstrued my earlier posts.. they were just as nasty as the ones that inspired them.. I can only offer that ignorance is not bliss; it is hurtful and degrading to those that suffered on both sides.
I bear no grudge against any nation; and I am not confusing the free and democratic Germany of today with the Nazi Regime from 60 years ago. No; I do not consider all who fly LW A/C in this sim to be evil cretins; and NO I do NOT pre-judge anybody's convictions based on the toys they play with.
Only when someone spouts ideology as motive in this sim do I become less than kind; and when the boasting or finger pointing becomes ramapant I'm moved to react. I too have family that did not come home; and lest their memory become sullied, I felt moved to take a stand.
Enuff.. that war is done.. and the majority here care not a whit for the ideologies of 60 years ago. This is a game. Sorry I forgot that... lets go fly airplanes.
Hang
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In my opinion...
Black and white really. To me anyway.
One group of servicemen valiantly and efficienlty tried to spread slavery, hate, torture, and pain to the world.
One group reluctantly but valiantly and dogedly fought a war they did not want, in a way they did not like, against an enemy they did not chose.
Both sides were fighting for us in a way. But only one side for our best interests.
It is sad that shuch magnificent men as Galland and co could not find the morals to see that empowering evil is itself evil. Or if they had the morals then it is sad that they lacked the courage to end it.
I can honor their flying but denying their part in causing the death and waste and suffering that was the result of the Germans cultural moral failure is revisionism.
My opinions are of course biased by my experiaces and studies. But I prefer to state them untarnished by 90s speak. In the case of WW2 I feel that blame and shame can be pretty accuratly applied. I will hold that opinion till someone presents evidence to the contrary. But I really doubt that the matter can be changed in any signifigant fact. It can just be muddied and confused if we let it be.
Pongo
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Hangtime:
I love democracy, and I love America as much as you. But there is something you must understand; If you were a LW pilot, with your wife and children living on Dresden, I doubt you will take your plane and fly to Sweden.
No matter if that B-17 formation is piloted by the Good Guys, and you are flying for the Bad Guys, I'm pretty sure you would grab your 109 and try to stop them from killing your family.
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Wardog:
just to set it straight; I brought up Dresden after you or yer pal stated that the LW was deliberately postponing the war for no good reason other than allowing American flyers and other civilians to die.
The ugly Americans I *DO* hate are those who claim that their country is the birthplace of democracy, the only free place in the world and that they are the knights who protect democracy everywhere. That's just ignorant, and quite insulting to everyone else.
Guess I'll let it rest. I was really surprised that anyone could hold the opinion of LW that they were butcher birds aiding the Holocaust directly without so much as flinching, but now I know more. I'll take it to O club if I wish to go deeper.
Sorry everyone for not posting this there in the first place.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by Karnak:
I would prefer to fly an RAf kite, but there is not currently one that gives me a reasonable chance to survive.
Sisu
-Karnak
Karnak hit the nail on the head....We need the SPIT XIV here!!...Thats the unseemingly undercurrent that is responsible for all of this...Bring the SPIT XIV to AH.
Thank You, and now back to our regularly scheduled wringing of hands.
Cobra
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From Chuck Yeager, about the strafing missions in Germany.
"It's a very different war a 50 feet of the ground; you see everything, especially in winter, when cars and trucks and people are easily spotted against a blanket of snow. Coming in so low my eyes once met with the driver of a German staff car. I was coming straight at him; one quick burst and that car disintegrated, four bodies tossed out on the icy road like rag dolls. Another time, I spotted a five- or six-truck German troop convoy; by the time I swooped down on them, the troops had jumped out and were hunkered down in a roadside ditch. I opened up with my six fifty-caliber machine guns and watched those sparkling butterflies dance right up the line in that ditch. Before leaving, I hit their trucks. It was the first time I had ever strafe troops, and I was suprised at how quick and easy it was to take out an entire battalion. Enemy troops were fair game: a driver in a jeep--zap him. A soldier running through the snow--zap him. But we weren't always scrupulous about our targets.
Atrocities were commited by both sides. That fall our fighter group recieved orders from the Eigth Airforce to stage a maximum effort. Our seventy-five Mustangs were assigned an area of fifty miles by fifty miles and ordered to strafe anything that moved. The object was to demoralize the German population. Nobody asked our opinion about whether we were actually demoralzing the survivors or maybe enraging them to stage their own maximum effort in behalf of the Nazi war effort. We weren't asked how we felt zapping people. It was miserable, dirty mission, but we all took off on time and did it. If it occured to anyone to refuse to participate (nobody refused, I recall) that person would of probably been court-martialed. I remember sitting next to Bochkay at the briefing and whispering to him : 'if we're gonna do things like this, we sure as hell better make sure we're on the winning side.' That's still my view.
By definition, war is immoral; there is no such thing as a clean war. Once armies engaged, war is total. We were ordered to commit an atrocity, pure and simple, but the brass who approved this action probably felt justified because wartime Germany wasn't easily divided between 'innocent civilians' and it's military machine."
I think it can be applied to most pilots, regardless of country.
I tend to agree.
- Jig
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StSanta..
Flame awaits thee in the O Club.
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 08-02-2000).]
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War is hell. People died, things were broken. It's all history. That's why they write those books, to teach us about our history and our past. I really believe bringing this kind of stuff to the board is just a fruitless exploit for attention. You may haved talked during the game, but it doesn't need to be here. It's all past, you can't change it no matter what you do. Just live with it and drive on. This thread has gone on long enough. Everyone just don't worry about this thread, It'll disappear soon.
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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
"Fait Accompli"
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"If we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find we have lost the future." Winston Churchill
Pretty sharp for such an old dead guy!
Can we stop now?
...or at least move it out to the O-Club topic?
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Jig - WOW. That is a great quote. Chuck has more brains than I give him credit for. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Jigster, good quote!
Can I ask from where you have it?
danish
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Originally posted by milnko:
I was in the US Navy during the 80's (1981 to 1989) and having traveled through out Europe, my impression was that most Europeans liked Americans, with the exception of the French (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I think they hate EVERYONE J <G,D,R>
2 questions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
How can you be sure that I hate you ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<G,D,R> <= What that mean ?
Hey RAM!
I agree with you about the "traité de Versailles" (or Versailles Dicktat for others (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
But if you dig a little in the past year about 1870 or 1815 it was not uncommon to have this kind of traité at that time ...
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Originally posted by danish:
Jigster, good quote!
Can I ask from where you have it?
danish
His autobiography, "On the Deck" chapter.
He continues for about another two pages on dealing with strafing missions.
Another passage:
"Early in my tour, I heard that one of the guys had seen a 109 strafe American bomber crew in their chutes. I thought it was bad practice in every way. Both sides at least gave lip service to a gentleman's agreement not to do it. And if I had to jump for it again, I could hope the agreement was being honored that day.
You didn't sit around brooding, because if you did, you'd never get through it. It could be tough playing God down on the deck, picking and choosing who or what to target in your gunsight. For example, during the D-Day operations, Andy [C.E."Bud" Anderson] and a few others spotted a German Tiger tank entering a small French village. They strafed the damn thing, but their bullets just bounced off that thick armor plating. The tank pulled up next to a little hotel. Our guys carrying bombs and one of them told Andy, 'I think I can dive bomb and get a direct hit.' Well he missed and blew that hotel into the next province. He was sick about it; that incedent haunted him for a long time. Don Bochkay came in on a freight train as it was passing through a French village. Just as he began to strafe, he saw the engineer jump down from the locomotive and run for his life. That train was packed with munitions and when it blew, the village was demolished.
Targets of opportunity meant legitimate military targets, which should have been clear mandate, but often wasn't. Three of our guys came in over a cleary marked German hospital train. They were passing overhead when the sides of one car slapped down and machine guns opened up, knocking down one of them. During the Normandy invasion, the Germans used church belfries as observation posts, and stored ammo and bivouacked troops in school houses. They were ruthless about hiding behind civilians in occupied territory, while we became calloused in order to get the job done. And over Germany, where you would be killed or taken prisoner if forced to bail out, there were hundreds of scared young pilots free-lancing down on the deck every day--hitting fast and getting the hell out, and maybe not being too particular about what they shot at.
That's why I loved to dogfight. It was a clean honest contest of skill, stamina, courage, one on one."
- Jig
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Originally posted by straffo:
Hey RAM!
I agree with you about the "traité de Versailles" (or Versailles Dicktat for others (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
But if you dig a little in the past year about 1870 or 1815 it was not uncommon to have this kind of traité at that time ...
I am damned glad the US and UK didnt thought the same way in 1945 as you do now.
1870 war converted France in a German-hating country, you wanted, you needed you DESIRED a revenge war. Your honour was at stake your provinces occupied, your honour hurt...
Well you got it.You got the so-wanted revenge war. You fought it. And you lost some millions of young people in the meantime before "winning" it. Maybe the thinking minds on France in 1919 could have thought about it and reached the conclussion that a thing like the Versalles dicktat would do nothing for peace between your countries, but only start a flame that would burn for decades. You did just the same as the Germans did in 1870, but multiplied by ten. Your country ,and UK, asked for a war reparation that would have needed to be paid year by year until 1988. You asked for the Rühr,the core of German's industry and wealth, to be separated from Germany as a free state under the Nation's league supervision...
YOu installed a hate treaty. Not a peace war And the result was another war, a bigger war, the darkest and evilest war in all times...only because you seeked revenge in 1918.
And you still say:
"But if you dig a little in the past year about 1870 or 1815 it was not uncommon to have this kind of traité at that time ..."
You try to justify Versalles. You have learned nothing, no lessons from XX century.
I'm mighty glad the US and UK DID learn the lesson 55 years ago. (Specially USA).
Trying to justify versalles in the grounds of 1870 is like trying to justify Dresden because London.
And that, excuse me, is pure and simple CRAP!.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Thx Jigster.
Will read it.
danish
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Thats funny RAM.
That is one of the same excuses that Hitler used for forcing WW2 on the world. Same excuse 60 + years later. Kinda chilling to hear it in the year 2000.
But was not most or all of Versalles not repudiated and ignored by Germany by 1938? Were they still paying repirations? Were they still out of the Rhineland?
What would Kaiser Willy have done if he had been the victor. Oh ya they are Germans..they dont have to be reasonable to their enemys.
After WW2 the allies removed and imprisoned most of the non suicided leadership of Germany.They divided the country in two and occupied it for decades. Most of the municipal and industrial infastructure of the county was allready destroyed.
You like that better than Versalles for some reason. I wonder if the Germans did.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Thats funny RAM.
That is one of the same excuses that Hitler used for forcing WW2 on the world. Same excuse 60 + years later. Kinda chilling to hear it in the year 2000.
But was not most or all of Versalles not repudiated and ignored by Germany by 1938? Were they still paying repirations? Were they still out of the Rhineland?
not my point. When the Versailles treaty was repudiated by hitler the Damage was already done...the proof is that Hitler was in power. If a more fair peace treaty after WWI had happened, its highly questionable whether Hitler had been ever a politician,let alone being Chancellor, and then Führer.And THATS my point.
What would Kaiser Willy have done if he had been the victor. Oh ya they are Germans..they dont have to be reasonable to their enemys.
you want my fair opinion? if he wanted to keep his throne he'd had to give up many of his powers (maybe a constitutional monarchy could save his throne, but maybe not.) as the internal state in Germany was a disaster from 1917 onwards.
And if Germany could beat France in 1918, it couldnt beat Britain by any means. Every nation would've wanted a peace, and with US as mediator (and not a contender) the war would had been won by the central powers, but Allied powers wont had to give up a unconditional surrender as Germany had to give in 1919. In fact it would've been so pyrric victory that you can call it a stalemate.
You ask me if they'd be reasonable? yeah, fer sure I believe the'd be. Germany was in a sorry state in 1918 and with nearly no will to fight,civil war menace, Communist soviet... the only thing that prevented an insurrection in some German units was the traditional discipline on the German Army.
Ever if Paris had fallen ,France may had kept the fight... A negociated peace would have followed because there was no will to fight from any side.
Austria-hungary was history already. It was so segregated that no matter if Central powers had won or not it was going to break up. Maybe with blood,maybe without it (Last Austrian emperor was a peace lover one, so IU guess that it would've been bloodless)...
Same go with Turkey. But here they have to deal with British alone and they will have to face same conditions as in 1919. No serious differences here.
Japan would get German's dominions on the Pacific, that wont change. So a War in the Pacific would've happened anyway.
You ask me if I like that?...yes I like that history more than the one that happened. And an Allied victory with a decent treaty for Germany in 1919 would fit me well too.
What happened was shameful. Only revenge was seeked in that pact. And that leaded to Hitler, nazism and 55 millons of deads in WWII.
After WW2 the allies removed and imprisoned most of the non suicided leadership of Germany.They divided the country in two and occupied it for decades. Most of the municipal and industrial infastructure of the county was allready destroyed.
You like that better than Versalles for some reason. I wonder if the Germans did.
But the western allies helped the rebuild of West Germany, Italy and Japan, and they didnt break they honour (the Nazi accusations are a completely different story). So instead of revenge, after WWII what US and UK seeked (France had little to say) was not revenge but a future in cooperation. And it worked quite fine, dont you think?.
The East Germany thing is a completely different Issue. Stalin was raged against Germany as noone can believe. But,fortunately, US and UK stopped him. But East Germany could not be saved...
You still disagree with me, Pongo?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Yes.
I asked you how Kaiser Wilhelm would have acted if he won. Instead of awnsering me you detailed what shape Germany was in in 1918 and how the war might have ended and quantified what I meant by victory. I meant victory, Like the allied Victory.
You detail the problems Germany had. Yet you make no account for the problems her enemies had. The Russians in civil war, Both western powers bankrupt and in the midst of social strife.
I point out to you that Versalles was not in effect at the invasion of Poland and you basicaly state that it doenst matter. Once Hitler was in power the war was on. But the German people had 6? years to stop the war then. And thier guilt is greater not lesser for letting it happen in spite of the appeasment that they recieved. The truth is they wanted war. They wanted to kill the Jews. They wanted revenge not for Versalles but for their defeat. They got everything they wanted.
If you want to debate who is to blame for a war. Pick a different war.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Yes.
I asked you how Kaiser Wilhelm would have acted if he won.
If he won we would've won a partial victory. THere was no way to win a complete victory with Britain in the game. Your question is out of context, and not applicable to the 1914 war.
But if you ask me if a miracle had happened and Germany had won a complete victory in 1918 over France and UK I am sure that a very close error would've happened,but in the German's side ,not on the allied. So?. Same story, nothing learned. And I'd blame Willy just as I blame people who instigated Versalles.
Who knows maybe today we'd be discussing about if the conditions put by Germany were too hard for France, and...
Instead of awnsering me you detailed what shape Germany was in in 1918 and how the war might have ended and quantified what I meant by victory. I meant victory, Like the allied Victory.
As I said, that scenario is out of possibility. But you asked for an answer, you got it avobe.
You detail the problems Germany had. Yet you make no account for the problems her enemies had. The Russians in civil war, Both western powers bankrupt and in the midst of social strife.
[/b]
Ahem...I said:
"Ever if Paris had fallen ,France may had kept the fight... A negociated peace would have followed because there was no will to fight from any side. "
That accounts for both sides. France Army played only minor part on land battles after the great revolts in 1916-17. And yes ,they had internal problems. But no, nothing near Germany and Austria's problems (lack of food, lack of resources due to the commerce blockade, Austria near disintegration, active antikaiser groups in Germany...)
internal disorder was way more profound in the Central Powers than in Allied side.And so I noted it. I was putting a what-if Germany had won the war, and explaining why wasnt possible to make the war longer than it was,from the German side.
Of course, Russia is a complete different thing, too. I left it at a side because I dont know enough about the Russian Civil War to make my opinion on how would have affected a victorious Germany in 1918.
But I am sure about one thing. A pacted victory for the central powers in 1918 like the one I describe (the only possible for Germany in WWI), would've had the same effect like in Versalles regarding the East situation.(I.E. Devolution of all conquered zones to russia, new Polish state-but of course with no Danzig corridor-, and creation of the Baltic states).
I point out to you that Versalles was not in effect at the invasion of Poland and you basicaly state that it doenst matter.
Because it doesnt.
It is this simple: my reasons to argue so hard against Versalles treaty are, EXACTLY, Hitler and nazism. After Versalles, Germany was an open field for extremist ideologies. Communism was violently repressed, because it was feared. Nazism was a new concept and of course not so feared. Had Versalles happened in a more fair way, Nazism wont have had such incendiary effect on the early 30's Germany. IMHO it wont have happened at all.
So in 1938 it doesnt matter if Versalles is in effect or not, because the evil is done. Hitler is in power and nazism on full action.
Once Hitler was in power the war was on. But the German people had 6? years to stop the war then.
Here is where its clear you always lived on a free country. Lucky you.
And thier guilt is greater not lesser for letting it happen in spite of the appeasment that they recieved. The truth is they wanted war.
You are nothing but confirming my points. After 1870 France wanted revenge on Germany. After 1919 Germany wanted revenge on the allies just because the same reasons as France had in 1870. That was my point from the start, you are doing nothing but give me the reason here: vengeance treaties are only the embryon to another conflict of bigger and worse dimensions.
Had versalles been a fair treaty,there'd been no desire for a revenge war in Germany. I hate Versalles because It wasnt a fair treaty, and so made things like nazism and a revenge war possible.
As I said, you are giving me the reason.
They wanted revenge not for Versalles but for their defeat. They got everything they wanted.
If you want to debate who is to blame for a war. Pick a different war.
They wanted revenge on a shameful peace treaty, they wanted revenge on the countries that put so monstruous conditions for a peace.
If they wanted revenge for the defeat not the treaty, how come that now France and Germany are friend governments? how come German people are so friendly?...because Germany was defeated in WWII, too...if there is a revenge desire for losing a war and not because the abuse of a abusive peace treaty, tell me why is Germany now so well integrated with France and UK?
If after WWII a Versalles'2 treaty had happened I am sure we would had seen another raged and revenge-wanting Germany raising.
Because noone likes to live under another country's shoe because they lost a war.
[edit]I'm not Germanophyle. I am objective. I always looked at those things from an outher perspective (for sure way less in WWII than in WWI).
I have no reason to symphatyze with germany, I have no german relatives I've never been in Germany.
I look all from the outside. I look it all the objective I can.
Thats why I sometimes may seem Germanophyle...because I think that history doesnt tell all the truth as commonly told.[edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Do you Yanks remember the "Fractured Fairytales" on the old Rocky & Bullwinkle Show?
Why does that keep popping into my mind? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lots of stuff there.
Are you saying that WW1 happend because of french desire for revenge from the Franco Prusian war?
You are basically saying that the reason Germany has not risen to strike again is because they got a fair peace treaty, and treated more fairly after. I would aggree that is a factor. Are you sure that a bigger factor is not that they were denied an army and occupied to enforce that. Are you sure the very different nature of their defeat in the second war might not have had an effect?
Germany had forign armies on her soil and was divided for a generation or more. Could not this have had an effect on Germany rising again.
How about the big red bear siting there with 60000 tanks....
We will never know. But an objective external observer would probably want to take issues like that into consideration when deciding why the "Peace" of WW2 was more effecitive then the "Peace" of WW1.
I dont like Versalles either. And as you know I am not a blaming the germans today for what happend in 1930-45. But I am blaming the germans that were there. I dont think you are. If not them then who? You would have us believe that the germans are not sentient. They march to the drum of madmen with out thought or blame.
Wrong.
The whole world was suffering in 1930. The overwhelming thing that made Hitler possible was not Versalles but the attitudes of the German people. All the rest is just excuses, because we cant believe that people that might be us would behave that way, there must be some powerful reason right?
Yes RAM. I have always lived in a Free country. I was born in a free county, Much like a German youth in 1920 was born in a free county. They rebeled against freedom from the start. You say it was because of Versalles. That was certainly part of it. But maybe they had no taste for freedom and had a taste for oppression.
Your part in this discusion has focused how Versalles forced the Germans to war. Did it force them to the gas chambers too?
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Originally posted by straffo:
2 questions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
How can you be sure that I hate you ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<G,D,R> <= What that mean ?
<G,D,R>=<Grin,Duck,Run>
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Pretty dumb thread. Pick an atrocity and you will find the American Government supported it at one time.
1. Slavery: late 1700s to 1865
2. Murder of women and children: Remember Wounded Knee. Many native american villages filled with nothing but women, children and old men were slaughtered. Colorado had a policy of extermination. Texas was about the same.
3. Book burning: Around 1917-1920. The burning of all German language books across the country.
Did I miss anything? Slavery, murder of innocents, genocide, bookburning? Anything else?
And oh yeah, I'm an American patriot too. Just because we've had idiots for leaders in the past doesn't mean we have to be idiots today.
The Germans had an incredibly evil leader during the time period we are discussing. They don't now, do they?
Everyone likes historical themes -- did you ever play cowboys/soldiers and indians? Did you choose to play the soldier who shot the screaming 5 year old or maybe you bayoneted the pregnant woman? Nah, you galloped your stick horse across the plains having fun.
Leave the Luftwaffle alone and let's get back to the games.
Akcurly
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Damned ! the reaction is quick and violent ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am damned glad the US and UK didnt thought the same way in 1945 as you do now.
1870 war converted France in a German-hating country,
you
they RAM not me !
wanted, you needed you DESIRED a revenge war. Your honour was at stake your provinces occupied, your honour hurt...
Well you got it.
they RAM not ME how many time should I repeat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You cannot compare the behaviour of a 1970 born french (well quite french ,my father is Dutch and my mother Polish (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) and a 1870 french : not the same education/patriotism etc ...
You got the so-wanted revenge war. You fought it. And you lost some millions of young people in the meantime before "winning" it. Maybe the thinking minds on France in 1919 could have thought about it and reached the conclussion that a thing like the Versalles dicktat would do nothing for peace between your countries, but only start a flame that would burn for decades. You did just the same as the Germans did in 1870, but multiplied by ten.
We can call it progress ... new weapons ,more efficiency ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Your country ,and UK, asked for a war reparation that would have needed to be paid year by year until 1988. You asked for the Rühr,the core of German's industry and wealth, to be separated from Germany as a free state under the Nation's league supervision...
YOu installed a hate treaty. Not a peace war And the result was another war, a bigger war, the darkest and evilest war in all times...only because you seeked revenge in 1918.
And you still say:
"But if you dig a little in the past year about 1870 or 1815 it was not uncommon to have this kind of traité at that time ..."
You try to justify Versalles. You have learned nothing, no lessons from XX century.
It was the way used at this time (1918) to justify Versailles.
You've used a shortcut, in NO way I've said that I endorse what my "ancestors" have done.
I know it's stupid it was just the way it used to be ...
I'm mighty glad the US and UK DID learn the lesson 55 years ago. (Specially USA).
Wilson tried to influence France but failed because of the old minded people who were at the french governement ...
Trying to justify versalles in the grounds of 1870 is like trying to justify Dresden because London.
And that, excuse me, is pure and simple CRAP!.
RAM before over-reacting don't suppose that I'm like you think I am (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)