Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hawk220 on April 29, 2003, 04:29:34 PM
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What do you Euro-guys think of this? good/bad?
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Four European Union countries that opposed the U.S.-led war in Iraq agreed on Tuesday to create a multinational force headquarters next year, in what they called a drive to boost European defense integration. The leaders of Belgium, France, Germany and Luxembourg also said they would establish the nucleus of a joint planning and command unit for military missions where NATO was not involved. The United States and NATO criticized the accord among countries recently derided as "old Europe" by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Much of the four-page statement issued after less than two hours of talks in Brussels appeared to repackage existing EU defense projects or proposals that are already before a Convention drafting a first constitution for the bloc.
These included a European arms procurement and strategic research agency, a solidarity clause in case of terrorist attack and the possibility for smaller groups of EU members to move ahead faster in defense cooperation.
The leaders proposed the creation of a European Security and Defense Union within the EU, open to all member states that wished to cooperate more closely in the military field and be bound by a mutual defense commitment.
They outlined seven concrete measures, most already under way or agreed, including the creation of an EU rapid reaction force, a European strategic air transport command and fleet, a joint nuclear, biological and chemical weapons protection capability and joint training.
However, the statement did include two apparent novelties.
"With a view to improving command and control capabilities available to the European Union as well as to NATO, our four defense ministers will take the necessary steps to establish, not later than 2004, a multinational deployable force headquarters for joint operations," it said.
In a tortuously redrafted clause, the four said: "Interested states will establish a nucleus of a collective capability which, instead of national means, they would make available to the EU for operational planning and command of EU-led operations without recourse to NATO assets and capabilities."
Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt, hosting the meeting three weeks before a tight general election, proclaimed this was the joint "strategic" headquarters he had proposed to install by summer 2004 in Tervuren, outside Brussels.
Chirac and Schroeder were more cautious. The joint statement couched the decision to create a planning staff in the conditional, saying it "could be taken by the end of the year with all the interested states."
Verhofstadt said later the four partners would go ahead in any case, adding that the conditional wording referred to talks on including other interested partners.
On the rapid reaction force, already under construction with the involvement of Britain and other EU states, the four said they would create a "nucleus capability" around a French-German brigade with Belgian commandos and Luxembourg reconnaissance.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair said before the Brussels announcement: "What is important is that nothing is done that in any shape or form undermines the NATO relationship."
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Does Germany even have a military? Wasn't it nixed after WWII. As for France, their military isn't worth worrying about. Sounds to me like they are saying we don't like you so we are going to play by ourselves. The fools! Hey, I wonder why the didn't ask Russia to join their little club.
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Germany does have a military as does Japan...
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Hey, I hope they go for it!
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Now ive seen it all.
The one country no one is afraid of facing in the battlefield; the one country no one trusts in military matters ; the punching bag sandwich w hore of the previous 2 and their comic relief sidekick are forming their own groupie organization!
:D :D :D
"Rapid Response" ... lesse... France will talk & whine them to death, Germany rapidly deploys ...over Belgium , and the last one waves the pompons with glee.
:rolleyes: ;)
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That European force has been on the drawing board for some time. Britain wisely doesnt want anything to do with it, can you imagine the British SAS, SBS, Para's and Commando's taking orders from some Frenchman?
Good idea for them as it makes it look like they have some military importance. Good idea for us because we can laugh at them.
Germany has some good tanks if i recall correcty, think they are called Leopard's?
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thats a great idea, that means the US can bring home the 120,000 troops it has in europe.
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Originally posted by john9001
thats a great idea, that means the US can bring home the 120,000 troops it has in europe.
Yep, bye, bye, exits over there, to the left.
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.
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It's not an army, it's called "Self Defence force".
"Belgian Army" I call a joke, but that's only my opinion. It has been diminished more every year after 1988 (The day the army ceased to be mandatory).
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What do they need to defend themselves against? apart from bad wine and saurkraut?
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418 'Hornet' Squadron RCAF
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Originally posted by GrimCO
Germany does have a military as does Japan...
they can only act as a self-defence force, not offensively
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Ah, I see you have never tatsed Gewulstaminer(sp?) :D
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points....
1- permits US soldiers to go back home......good
2- permits the Ol' Europe to defend itself...with its own resources.....good
3- there problems will not corcern the US anymore.....good
4- no more close contact between the Ol'world and the new......bad
5- no more exchange of cultures...old and new.....bad
6- splitting the old and new......bad
just a few.....can someone else add some...without insults please....
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It's Gewurtstraminer ... and it's Alsacian you ***** belgian [tuuuuuuuuut censored ;))]
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Ooops, well, it did sound German, and it's still verry nice ! :D
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Israel's forces are also self-defense forces too.
You can dress the wolf in sheep's clothes and keep the fools convinced that the wooly canine is harmless. Until it bites their heads off.
Self-Defense is just a word, a military is a military is a military. Japan, Germany and Israel's "self-defense" forces are quite capable of leaving their shores and kicking major arse.
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I think it's a great idea. USA spends a much higher percentage of GNP on defense than any nation in Europe. Time for them to share the burden. Would help us be able to reduce taxes. They will have to increase taxes and military budget, which will make us even more competitive in the global economy.
The only thing that worries me: Is Germany to be trusted without an occupying force? They don't have a real good track record over the last 100 years. I don't think it's a coincidence that US troops were stationed in Europe for 50 years, and those 50 years were the most peaceful in the history of Europe.
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You can never have a decent Army if you have conscripts as Germany does.
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so the american army was not a decent army when it took conscripts ?
bite my ass.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
so the american army was not a decent army when it took conscripts ?
bite my ass.
LOL good come back , Freakin Loser.
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Originally posted by straffo
It's Gewurtstraminer ... and it's Alsacian you ***** belgian [tuuuuuuuuut censored ;))]
I thought Alcace was part of Germany??:D
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I rather have a united nato
It's a stupid idea
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Dutch consripts used to win the cavlary bocal aginst prof americans tank crews. (no kidding)
Profs only is bad, conscript have better improvising capabilitys
I regret dutch army went prof only.
Consripts give more feedback to the civilians.
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The Franco-German Brigade,
Have they ever done anything, or do they just cost hard Euros as a "Show" piece.
This is not a bash.
When I talk about Conscripts, I'm talking about the 8 month wonders, that must do service in the German Bundeswehr.
Germany would be better provided to have a small, high-tech, mobile Army then what they have now.
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The proposed EU force will not draw resources from Nato commitment, it will be "independent" and have a focus on european security. I dont see the problem with that at all.
Conscripts can be just as good as a professional armed force if the training and equipment is good enough.
Most if not all countries i know about that has "forced conscription" or whatever its called in english :D also has a substantial amount of soldiers and officers on "contract" ie they are pro. With todays hightech battlefield you simply cannot base your entire defence forces on conscripts because as soon as they have reach a good skill level they are done.
In our case only about 40 percent of all 18 year old boys complete their mandatory 12+6 months of service because the rest does not really want to or cant because of medical or educational reasons. So the 40 % that are left are usually well motivated and the competition to get contracts is rather tough. Same goes for alot of other countries that base their armed forces on conscription, numbers has dropped but quality has gotten alot better since the cold war.
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Na, a good trained Professional Army is the way to go. Nilsen made a good point, after 8-12 months, most conscripts are done with thier service.
Prof. guys, have years of experiance behind them, with a little luck countless conflics in thier resume.
I can't see how a soldier that gets a letter in the mail to go into Military service really wants to give a 100%. True there are exceptions. 8-12 months, geez I was still in training. Took 6 months before I saw my first real duty station.
Does the British Army have conscipts, or does it work as the US
services.
Espirt de Corps, something conscripts will never give. That "Bro" thing as we called in the MARINES.
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The British Army does not have conscripts.
It had 'national service' back in the 1950s, which was like conscription. That ended in 1955 I think.
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You can have a very good Espirt de Corps outside the us marines.
The British armed forces are 100% pro
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
You can have a very good Espirt de Corps outside the us marines.
The British armed forces are 100% pro
Of course you can, that's my point it's a Professional Army and a dam good one at that.
I've worked with the Royal Marines, SAS, Paras, Aussies, ROK Marines and Norway's Boat teams and even (don't laugh) Dutch Marines. All of them, Kick bellybutton troops.
Nothing like the conscripts I've worked with from other countries.
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Have you worked / trained with norway's boat teams Monk?
Do you remember what unit? Was it wintertraining in Norway or elsewhere?
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Have you worked / trained with norway's boat teams Monk?
Do you remember what unit? Was it wintertraining in Norway or elsewhere?
Yes sir Winter training in 1982, I think.
Unit?.....good question.
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82? to early for me, i was in 94-96 :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
82? to early for me, i was in 94-96 :D
Hehe.......I was kicking back then.
I did have a Freakin blast, and hats off to your guys.
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Hehe had alot of fun on those wintertraining "session", bloody cold at times but its always nice to exchange tactics, ideas and knowhow with others.
I was EWO on MTB (ptboat) and R.I.B. driver for the norwegian "marinejeger" for a while, doing insertions with those nuts (the "special boat guys" i think you are calling em) was a fun, cold, hard but fun.
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they may also have been army boat engeneers of the 6th division used for river insertion, sabotage, intel gathering and bridge building. They are conscripts and not part of the special forces just well trained.
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Watched a special on the history channel about Norwegian special ops during WWII. They took out a heavy water manufacturing plant being used by Germany to develop a nuclear bomb. I believe 11 soldiers from Norway pretty much put an end to Hitler's ability to seriously pursue a nuclear weapons program.
I know this has little to do with this thread, but my hat's off to them any way. Those Norwegians were some brave SOB's who did a fantastic job against the odds.
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They destroyed the heavy water factory at Vemork and denied the germans what they needed to research/manufacture nuclear weapons. The factory was the only one in the world at that time that had an ongoing production of heavy water.
Those guys where the first norwegian commandos and after the war they were responsible for setting up the first special forces training in Norway.
They where some brave dudes and some of em are still alive to tell the story.
In those days the commandos had no real experiencs since special forces was new to most countires and they learned by trial and error. Most of those hard learned lessons from all counties special forces are still used today.