Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: LUPO on April 30, 2003, 05:05:33 AM
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Grendel posted a very interesting interwiew with mr.
Hemmo Leino. Fokker D.XXI, Morane-Saulnier 406, Messerschmitt 109 ace. 11 official victories. 20+ recently confirmed.
After the following statement I was confirmed that our Aces High IL2 is really too weak.
Q. Do you remember from which angle you used to shoot at a target?
A. It depended on the plane you were shooting at. The Il-2 had to be fired at from the side, you could not down him from any other direction. It was in vain to shoot a well armoured plane like the Il-2 from behind. You could not accomplish anything.
Your opinion?
for the entire post look at Hemmo Leino (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85773)
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Ciao Lupo,
AH IL2 too is too weak.
Im sure people would fly much more IL2 "The Flying Tank" Sturmovik if it could sustain better mg / small cannon fire
IMHO
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The IL-2 just barely holds together to withstand strafing runs against about four Panzer/Tiger tanks. Usually during the attack the engine oil is most easily damaged, and by the time you strafe and disable about four tanks, you have to rtb.
If you get really really unlucky, the Panzer/Tiger pintle guns will tear out the tail or wingtips. For anti-tank purposes, well, I guess it can be said that the IL-2 is just barely tough enough to get the job done.
Against M-16s or Ostwinds, it is toast.
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I find quite the opposite, i fly the il2 a lot and it's one tough bird IMO. Very often i will take 37mm hit from an osite and survive- i used to think they were one off miracles but, it happens so often (50/50 at least for me) i can only vouch for the toughness of the il2.
If there are no osties/m16's about the il2 will murder all gv's in the area. Yes the il2 does suck against them but what do you expect? The il2 is a large, slow moving target it's bound to get shotdown- as they did in real life.
Here are my stats this tour against panzers in the il2-
60 kills 1 death- and that death was only a couple of days ago when i rammed the floor in a dive cause my fps died. Someone in b17's did a low level drop against gv's and all the bombs hitting the floor killed my framerate. I'm no miracle worker- if i can do this anyone can
The il2 in AH does what it's designed for- to kill panzers. I have no problems how it is modelled.
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I feel Il2 is too weak in AH, single 50cal on GV do too much damage IMHO vs IL2.
Il2 should avoid Osties/M16 unless they are firing on another target.
The best tactic for Il2 when working base defense in concert with friendly panzers is for the IL2 to disble enemy panzers using its 23mm cannon before they get in range to engage friendlies and leave the AA vehicles to your own tanks. Il2 should alose engage any LVT/M3/M8 fast moving softskin.
The great thing about using IL2 to neutralize enemy panzers before they get in range is that you know that you are 100% succesful if the Pz4 is smoking because you ether killed the gun or the engine and the tank cant fight or cant get to the fight.
Tigers are essentally invulnerable to the 23mm cannon, but PzIV absolutely cannot resist 23mm fire.
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I am not really an IL2 flier and even less of a GV-driver, but I do think it's fairly surviveable. And I even managed to kill some panzers with its 250kg bombs. And again, if I can do it, anyone can. Survived two 37mm hits in my last sortie but the third was too much :D
I don't know exactly how 'invulnerable' the Tiger is to 23mm cannon... I was strafing one after trying to hit it with 1 250kg bomb, three rockets and 5 or 6 strafing runs with the cannon (top/sides). I hit it many times with the cannon but I might have hit it with rockets and bombs too... and panzers were firing at it as well. Got the kill though.
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AH models angle of impact in ballistic model? have never seen or heard of rounds bouncing off, which happens often in Il2 (151/20 for example).
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The il2 wasnt a "tank" most of its armor was 6mm or so. LW pilots made careers out of smacking il2s out of the sky.....
Hauptmann Joachim Brendel shot down 88 il2s.
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/stormovik.html
lipfert shot down 2 il2s on several occassions
148. ----> 23.10.1944 ----> 15:31 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Solnok
149. ----> 23.10.1944 ----> 15:32 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Solnok
Then again
155. ---->17.11.1944 ----> 11:05 Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Jaszbereny
156. ---->17.11.1944 ----> 11:10 Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Jaszbereny
Then again
169. ----> 4.1.1945 8:26 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Tarjan
170. ----> 4.1.1945 8:28 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Tarjan
I could post varios lw kill claim that show multiple il2s downed 1 right after another.
Moot is right that in AH any bullet that hits at any angle and location contributes equally to the overall damage. In AH the tail section of most aircraft pop off rather easily. But in il2 and il2 FB the 20mm and LMGs (7.6, 12.7 13mm etc) are nerfed and are under modelled.
The real IL2 has its "armor" around its pilot and engine. Its wings, tail gunner and tail were weak. Inreality firing from dead 6 was a low percentage shot and any "offangle attack" gave you a larger target to shoot at.
The Morane-Saulnier 406 that Hemmo Leino:
The rat guns were miserably weak and the mags were of small capacity, it was not much good for anything. But the Berezina heavy machine gun was good.
One 20 mm Hispano-Suiza HS-9 or 404 cannon with 60 bullets; two 7,5 mm MAC 1934 machine-guns with 300 bullets each.
As you can see it isnt heavily armed and has limited ammo. To make the most effiecient use of this ammo you would want high percentage shots. In the game Il2 and FB the easiest way to kill and il2 is to shoot the oil cooler underneath the center fuselage. Hit it their a few good times and it smokes, hit it again it burns.
The only real problem the il2s in AH have is the ease at which it gets hit by gv mgs, but all ah planes share this problem. GVs are easy to spot and kill so a gameplay concession has been made to allow them some prospect of defense against air attack. Unfortunately any hizooka or 50cal plane is a much better anti gv / attack aircraft due to their ammo load, the range at which they can kill and their unrestricted "overload" ord carrying capability.
Taking 1 question and applying that answer to justify some problem in AH is a bit simplistic. The il2 may very well be "weaker" then in rl but I dont think theres evidence enough to support that.
Especially since those lw pilot who were lucky enough to stumble upon them could easily pad their kill claims.
No plane was ever a tank..........
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Tks everybody for replies. Very interesting indeed.
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Originally posted by Batz
Unfortunately any hizooka or 50cal plane is a much better anti gv / attack aircraft due to their ammo load, the range at which they can kill and their unrestricted "overload" ord carrying capability.
1/2 right. Ord is useful, so a P38 or P47 very definately is. 50cals or 20mm unless from directly overhead are useless. the IL2 has become the BEST aircraft for popping pnzr's and Osty's from any angle IMHO.
For a demo. Shortly after the latest update I found an nme pnzr AFK at a spawn point. Upped an M16. Pumped 4000 rounds into the pnzr. No damage. upped an m3 with GV supplies. dropped em all at the spawn point. Upped an M16 again. Pumped over 16,000 rounds into the pnzr. Killed both tracks and posibly the engine. It did my Hit % against nme's a great deal of good but when the pnzr came back from AFK he rotated his turret and picked me off in 1 shot. 16,000:1.
50cal whiners are just that... Whiners. I've not killed a pnzr since the update with 50 cal. osty turrets, yes. Outright kills, no.
Gatso
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I have played long enough and have spent time in every 50 cal and Hizooka armed plane there is. I can kill gvs with 50 cals and hizookas at further a range and easier then any other calibre.
Save the whiner BS for some one who cares. Its a tested fact and if you dont believe do your own tests. Dont offer some exceptional anecdotal evidence as the norm.
The guns on the gvs are enhanced for gameplay.
any hizooka or 50cal plane is a much better anti gv / attack aircraft due to their ammo load, the range at which they can kill and their unrestricted "overload" ord carrying capability.
100% factual.......
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Many of those IL2s that people racked up so easy had no rear gunner. The IL2 was acctually a very low servivability plane befor it got a rear gunner.
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Originally posted by Batz
I have played long enough and have spent time in every 50 cal and Hizooka armed plane there is. I can kill gvs with 50 cals and hizookas at further a range and easier then any other calibre.
Save the whiner BS for some one who cares. Its a tested fact and if you dont believe do your own tests. Dont offer some exceptional anecdotal evidence as the norm.
The guns on the gvs are enhanced for gameplay.
100% factual.......
I'd like to see a recent film of you doing so.
I can kill panzers with the quad hispano armament on the Mossie, but it takes a lot of work. I haven't even dented a tank with 50 cals.
By far the best panzer killer, in my experience, is the Il-2, although the P-38L might be better due to its 10 rockets and two 1000lb bombs. The P-38's guns aren't going to kill any panzers.
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That was covered last time you said that Karnak. Atleast 2 other replies contradicted your experience.
The reason the pnzr was "easier" to kill before the patch was because there was a huge whole in it where the turret met the chasis. 303s could kill it then. That means all rounds will now be "harder" to kill it. It doesnt mean that now 50 cals and hispanos are not the "easiest" types of rounds to kill them with.
Many of those IL2s that people racked up so easy had no rear gunner. The IL2 was acctually a very low servivability plane befor it got a rear gunner.
No Pongo look at the dates of Lipfert's multi kills. I will dig up Brendels if you really need evidence that the il2 rear gunner was as ineffective as any other in any other plane.
The il2 was less susceptible to small calibre ground fire and ack burst. It wasnt a flying tank that couldnt be killed.
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well hell here Tony Woods Kill claims Eastern Front Vol 4. 1944. January - June
http://www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk/ost44janjun.pdf
its a pdf file.
Seems to me from a brief scan the il2 would be 1 of the last planes I would want to be in.
YMMV
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Heres July - December '44
http://www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk/ost44juldec.pdf
To check previous years go here
http://tonywood.cjb.net/
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lol Wotan that list proof nothing, except il2 was used in large numbers
if i start reading allies kills list, i can tell u 190 and 109 is a plane what i never would in;)
ramzey
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No the surevivablility of the IL2 was lower then its contemperary single seat Russian attack aircraft. Signifigantly so.
And effective or not. A tail gun adds to survivability.
BTW.
I think the damage model on the IL2 in the game is more right then wrong. It is very survivable to snap shots from fighters. And it can take a lot of 50 cal from an m16(sometimes, sometimes you lose the rad imediatly)
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quad hispano/M2/N1K guns is enough to disarm the panzer.
You land enough hits on engine and top of turret, they both brake. Not as easy on tiger, bit easier on ostwind. might as well be dead then.
detracking is hairy since the target is even smaller and you've to hit at not any angle.
50cals arent so easy as they used to, but I killed a panzer myself with a P38 or 47 coming at 375mph or so, about 70deg angle, hits landing at the neck of the turret, burst lasted from 1.2 to 500 maybe. it just exploded. this was just after the tiger release.
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against most players, you can just dive into flak panzer or m16 fire and pop their turret (or kill if m16, usually at 1K) from 1.3 with well aimed il2 cannon, taking one or two hits if you take too long. PT boats die about as quick as m16 if not faster since usually larger target.
three 37mm hits are usually enough to wreck your il2 although 2 hits often show no damage. usually time to retire that plane by then.
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Ramzey read the list in the context of the thread. Look where guys killed 3 4 or 5 in a row. That hardly is example of a flying tank or that the large kill counts against il2s were when then didnt have a tail gunner.
The il2 was nothing special. As a matter fact it was shot down in large numbers through out the war.
That list certainly shows that the il2 was killed, killed often and in large numbers.
The il2 didnt survive any better with a tail gunner then it did with out.
That facts show the il2 to just another airplane that was shot down in large numbers.
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Originally posted by Batz
The il2 was nothing special. As a matter fact it was shot down in large numbers through out the war.
The radio call of the Il-2 pilot: "Am engaging enemy. Dosvidanya, Rodina!"
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Originally posted by Shiva
The radio call of the Il-2 pilot: "Am engaging enemy. Dosvidanya, Rodina!"
Dosvidanya, Rodina...Does it mean like-Bye homeland?
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yep WldThing
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yeap Wotan, but mostly that depends from situation and range of shooting. Hartman proof that year earlier. U know this story im sure. Laters planes have heavy arments too and bigger amno load. Il2 as clasic ground attack plane keep formation as log as he can, and mostly fly 1 expirenced pilot and 2 newbeies in VIC.
Tactics of use Il2 and discipline in russian units enforce so big numbers of losses. Thats secound point. Wingmans must blinde follow leader. /i read many "funny" stories about that. So somtimes it was like shooting to ducks.
I think most of us know that from AH too.
IL2 "bulletprof" was made against low barrel ground fire, not to resist airplane attack. Wichone noone can guarantie. Even large b17 was shot down by paper zekes. Thats mean short range of fire , and hitting vital parts of airplane.
Main role of il2 in RL was fight against life forces, light and medium vechicycles, strong holds. All that from suprise attack of with heavy fighter cover.
Single seatter version was abdon from production fast, or later used only to punish pilots flying on it. Not as main attack airplane
ramzey
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Hizookas will disable a Panzer IV in 1 pass, 2 passes at most. By disable I mean knock out the Turret and engine or tracks.
The angle doesn't seem to matter at all, I've been strafed at a relatively flat angle from the front and lost my turret in one pass. I guess Tony Williams got some bogus data on either the Hizookas armor penetration statistics or the ammo load that was used in the Hizooka in WW2, or both.
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Anybody who has a good aim can kill an IL-2 with with the single .50s on the M3. Going strafing against AA vehicles are supposed to be hazardous, yes.. also, it makes sense return fire from tanks usually hit the oil coolers and cause it to leak..
but a single .50 sawing off the tails and wings??
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i have more success against tanks in a hurri2c than i do in a il2
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I agree on your points Batz, as long as you are not falling into the trap of quoting the top 5 percent of the "aces" scores to prove your point. Aces scores are way too often used as "proof" that "plane X" was this or that. If you know what I mean.
As for the IL-2, it may be a victim of pilots who fly it for one way missions in the MA as opposed to being weak. IL-2s attacked all sorts of "softer" targets in WW2, troops, trucks, ships, depots, AFVs of all sorts, they didnt spend a lot of time attacking Osties directly in RL. Also, they were used en masse.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Anybody who has a good aim can kill an IL-2 with with the single .50s on the M3. Going strafing against AA vehicles are supposed to be hazardous, yes.. also, it makes sense return fire from tanks usually hit the oil coolers and cause it to leak..
but a single .50 sawing off the tails and wings??
The Il2's armor protects the engine. The radiators were placed behind the engine (at least on the prototype, they might have changed it afterward).
The entire nose section is armored. The chance of hitting the radiators seems very small. The 50 has the power to penetrate the armor but not the engine as well. Hitting from under might work but its a hard shot.
Maybe they need to put armor on planes? Like they do for tanks.
It should be almost impossible to damage the Il2's engine, or crew (I dont know the effectiveness K-4 transparent armor) with a 30 caliber MG. The wings, tail and the rear fuselage werent armored and should be much more vulnerable.
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regards to numbers produced ostwinds i bet they have poor chance to not meet in battle
ramzey
btw are u know only 43 ostwinds where build during ww2?
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Squire, of the pilots listed by me how many are in the top 5%?
Guys read the kills claims you will see plenty of lw pilots you never heard of killing multi il2s.
Ramzey this thread is about the modelling of AHs il2 and how some percieve it to be "weak" based on a single question to a finnish pilot flying an under gunned aircraft.
Look up the armor thickness on the il2. All of it can be penetrated. Its average I believe about 6mm. It has nothing to do with one or 2 ace lw pilots killing them. They dropped as easy as any other aircraft.
The only thing the il2 protected against was small arm ground fire and flak burst. Its armor was around the pilot and the eng. It wasnt some super plane that flew around absorbing tons of ammo.
Fhj.Fw. Herbert Bachnick of 9./JG 52 on 07.01.44 flying a 109 shot down 5 ils as indicated on the first page of that pdf of kill claims in the link I provided. If you read that you will see these 5 kills were verfied by film. He shot them down at 300m agl.
I dont know what point some of you are arguing but the il2 was nothing special.
aaa protection particularly for convoys of light vehicles was sporadic at best. The greatest threat to most attack sorties were small arms ground fire and flak bursts. Thats what the il2 was designed to be protected against. It was not protected against flak panzers of any type. It certainly wasnt protected against fighters.
Heres how attack planes stopped armor in ww2
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/books/kursk/images/battle_kursk_0139.jpg
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One more thing this here is the only real tank killer of ww2 and only 1 pilot was very successfull at it......
http://trombke.bei.t-online.de/stuka.mpg
Just fyi here some more interesting gun camera clips
http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy.htm
enjoy........
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"LW pilots made careers out of smacking il2s out of the sky....."
Surely you arent talking about the lower 5 percent then? :)
Just making a point that ace LW pilots who show large #s of kills on certain types may have more to do with the skill or experience involved than flaws in a particular a/c. That holds true with P-51s, Il-2s, or C-47s for that matter.
Again, as far as the IL-2, it may very well be its just as well protected as it should be in AH. I really dont know.
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as I said read the kill claims in the links I posted. Goto the site I linked and look up the top il2 killer.s
Ever heard of Fritz Seyffardt? he had 30 kills in ww2. All 30 were il2s.
I know what I am talking about.
Was Fhj.Fw. Herbert Bachnick in the top 5% he had multi kill il2 sorties.
Do you know what rank Fhj.Fw. is? Bachnick was an ace in 30min killing il2s.
Maj. Wiese killed 133 soviet planes 70+ were il2s.
Oblt. Kurt Dombacher killed 43 il2s out of a total of 68 kills credited.
There were many who had 10+ il2 kills.
Hartman had 352 kills only 30 of those il2s. It was hardly the hartmans that were killing all these il2s.
You offer opinion inspite of the facts that prove otherwise.
Was the il2 tough to shoot down in a Morane-Saulnier 406? Hell any plane was tough to shoot down with those guns and that limited ammo.
But that doesnt mean the il2 wasnt smacked out of the sky when it had contact with enemy fighters. Because it was.
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About Il2's and their durability, I have to second what Batz is saying...
I used them in AH to great success when operating with a group of Il2s using attacks coming from different directions at the same time.
In Forgotten Battles (as a reference point) if you setup a mission in QMB using any Il2 you want with just you in the flight, on the Crimean map with the airbase as the target- first pass, or second pass you are going to be SOL. I just tested this to be sure, There's 7 flaks total on the field, 3 near the 4 parked He111s on the left side from where you start out, and 3 closer to you between the runway and the taxi-way on the left side.
First pass I dove in, taking hits the entire way- destroyed 2 of the 3 flaks closest to me, and on my egress destroyed 3 of 3 flaks near the parked He111s. They got my oil though and I had holes throughout my wings and fuselage- 23mm on the right wing disabled.
Second pass, I line up on the truck convoy that has a flak in it, fire off my rockets. Then get hit, black smoke pouring from my engine and losing power at a steady rate.
This is about comparable with the defense 1 Flak will have in AH.
So I went back to the drawing board, got myself 2 wingmen and did the attack again. First pass I screwed up and only got 1 flak in each of the groups. I turned back, and finished off the rest of the flaks with my guns. One of my wingmen was missing, prolly shot down by the flaks. Second pass, finish off the remaining flaks and the single other AA half-track (dunno calibre, it spews yellow tracers though). Completely leveled the field without a scratch on me or my remaining wingman. Have the track if you wanna see it.
It shows nothing more, however, than the use of group/wing tactics to force the AA batteries to track multiple targets. This creates an ineffective defense, since they can't concentrate their fire on a single incoming plane.
Much like the Russians learned early on, after they lost almost the entire 4 ShAP equipped with the single seat Il2, employing group tactics and proper attack methods will the plane's full abilites be seen... otherwise, they will fall out of the skies like a swarm of mosquitos freshly sprayed with Raid.
It's not very fast, or manueverable, compared to other attack planes- so you have to use it in numbers.
-SW
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didnt rudel once down an il2 with his stuka???
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I recall reading about 109's expending their entire ammo loads shooting into Il2's (in the wrong places) without result, and also that LW pilots were instructed to shoot the oil cooler on the lower right side of the nose as the most effective way of disabling the beast. It sounds from people talking about losing the oil to ground and aricraft fire as though that aspect at least, has been accurately modeled.
Btw, does anyone know what the characteristics are of the two types of rockets available with this plane?
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Originally posted by Rasker
I recall reading about 109's expending their entire ammo loads shooting into Il2's (in the wrong places) without result, and also that LW pilots were instructed to shoot the oil cooler on the lower right side of the nose as the most effective way of disabling the beast. It sounds from people talking about losing the oil to ground and aricraft fire as though that aspect at least, has been accurately modeled.
Btw, does anyone know what the characteristics are of the two types of rockets available with this plane?
http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/armament/rs82.htm
http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/armament/rs132.htm
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It shows nothing more, however, than the use of group/wing tactics to force the AA batteries to track multiple targets. This creates an ineffective defense, since they can't concentrate their fire on a single incoming plane.
-SW
A couple of days ago, three of us took up IL-2s to deal with a massive Bish GV assault on our field. We worked the Ostwinds as a group, attacking from 3 different directions. It was very effective. I took a 37mm hit that shot off an aileron, so I landed 5 kills (mixed bag of Flaks, Panzers and M3s). I grabbed a fresh IL-2 (ordnance was disabled at this field, so all kills were gun kills), and got 5 more. Lost my radiator to MG fire, landed and reupped again. Killed two Panzers, a Spitfire and a DHog who tried to pee on our party. Face shot both of them. However, with only 25% gas available, the engine soon quit and I headed for the field in a glide. Running out of altitude, I dropped the gear and set up to land short of the runway. Just then, an La-7 and Mustang dove in on me. Needless to say, I was unable to avoid them. However, they needed several passes to kill the Stormovik, which absorbed and enormous amount of lead before something important was hit. It's a tough airplane. The other guys landed between 8 and 10 kills over two sorties as well. Eventually, we were all shot up by the incoming swarm of fighters. However, we killed about 30 enemy for our three losses, a ratio I'll take anyday.
I see no issues with survivability of the IL-2.
My regards,
Widewing
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IL2's in AH are actually disgustingly durable. However like most planes other planes in ah, they also have glass tails which seem to be held on with chewing gum.
However, the problem of the il2 isnt so much it's lack of durability, but rather, the high percentage of AA targets they need to deal with. Throw in the fact that most of those are ostwinds which most of the time score one hit kills against even an il2, and you've got a tough time for the ground attack planes.
Still, the il2 is my favorite GV busting plane.