Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Stegahorse on May 01, 2003, 07:32:46 PM
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This is Directly off the Thunderbolt Pilots assn message board:
A p-47 did a mock dog fight with a p-38 and won hands down. A p-47 could shoot down a p-51. And fighting the bf109 and the fw190 no problem. If an airplane is only as good as its stats well no more has to be said. It was an airplane that could to battle in any theater against anytang the enemy could put against it.
http://www.p47pilots.com/cfm_MessageBoards.cfm?pageMode=READMSG&messageboardid=2&messageboarddetail_id=336
I have always believed that the Jug is modeled incorrectly.
The P-47-M was the one that weighed in at 19,900 lbs and that N model was over 20,000 lb. The D's were maxed out at 16,500.
And, the F-u4 Corsair used the same engine, was about the same size and only 800 lbs lighter (empty) than the P-47. It was considered unsuitable for Euro Air combat, and yet it outperfoms everything , especially the T-bolt. The Corsair's and Evansville Built Thunderbolt's wing ends were built by the same company in Evansville. Their primary manufacturing was the Higgin's Boats.
It just ain't right!!!
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Learn to fly the P-47.
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Stegahorse, "It just ain't right!!!" seems a little bit vague.
The P-47 we have is mostly and comfortably 'up to the stats' in my opinion - it's a fast plane when high, not so inspiring in maneuverability but dives and rolls great, great firepower, stable gun platform, awesome A2G ordnance...
The only factor, but the largest factor that the P-47s have so limited success in AH is because basically the MA is a chaotic mid/late 1945 arena with monster planes flying around. Pulled out of historical context, a good plane might achieve so little.
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Maybe you should try some of the CT setups. Although there are limitations, the historical planesets result in some interesting observations.
For instance, the ever-so-damned N1K2 is almost helpless, when they are solely alone to fight a band of organized 1944~45 USN planes, in PAC setups of the CT. The USN pilots usually fly by "Historical" agenda - come in high, don't lose speed, and run away like a greased pig when things get tough - and since there aren't any La-7s to catch running planes and force them to turn, even the N1K2s are usually in a diabolical situation where it is totally passive against incoming USN onslaught by those awesom F4U-1, F4U-4s and F6F-5s. A slow plane, which is incapable of forcing the fight to its terms - that's what the N1K2 is reduced to, in the CT.
Another example is the Hurricane MkIIC, Spitfire MkV, Bf109F-4 and the Fw190A-5 - in North Africa setups. F-4s are like Tempests of this era, and since nothing can catch them in time, they almost totally dictate the fight. Organized bands of 190A-5s slaughter SpitMkVs in North Africa setups - something probably unseen in the MA.
Also, in the 1944 Rhein setups, organized bands of P-47s are versatile, and very hard to fight against even for superior planes like the Bf109G-10 and the Fw190D-9.
Since the CT has limited number of pilots, unlike the MA, a loss of even a single friendly plane has a powerful impact. In the MA, hundreds of planes get shotdown in a single area, as the pilots keep upping the planes and step into the ring. In the MA, when you win the engagement, about 2 minutes later more enemies head towards your way. Unless you are in a monster plane yourself, you will be caught low and slow. However, in the CT where the numbers are like 20 people for each sides, when a certain side loses local air superiority, it stays that way for long - no instant reinforcements, chaotic battles don't last long. Were it in the MA, even if organized P-47s pilots win the battle against a few superior enemies, they'd be caught low and slow against many more which have upped during the fight. ......
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It's mostly about the skill level of the person piloting the P-47, and the historical context of the arena - as long as there are some sort of concessions which force the arena into something that reflects 'history', the P-47s are powerful planes. I love flying the Bf109G-10 - I usually laugh when I meet a La-7 at something like 23k.. however, when I see a P-47 at that altitude, I get nervous, becuase the chances are, judging by the altitude and merge style, it is highly probable that the P-47 pilot is someone who knows his plane very well.
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Ofcourse.. there are other alternatives.. which I have often thought of, such as increasing perk limitations on late-'44/'45 planes, and forcing the MA into a '43 environment... :D but that, is another story.
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The P-47 in AH is a breath of fresh air in comparison to other games like WB's and IL FB. It is very capable when flown correctly
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it's one of the most dangerous planes when it's above you. No matter how you evade its attacks, any vet pilot has a good chance to hit you with its 8 laser guns. Also, it's very tough to outrun in that situation. Perhaps that's why it DOES do so well. Look at the kill ratio for the D-11. The D-25 and D-30's stats are lower because they're often used for jabo.
It's my favorite cherry picker.
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A well flown 47 is one of the toughest planes to shoot down, IMHO. I'd love to learn the evasives those guys use...Fantastic flops and barrel rolls. If I get someone to teach me, I'll fly that thing full time!
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yep, the trick is just to get at heigh alt (something like 20.000ft)
it'll be much faster and manoeuvrable.
also loading less guns/ammo is a good way to get some chance against a6m's or anything
I love the jug, been flying it for 3 years now ;)
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Originally posted by -ammo-
The P-47 in AH is a breath of fresh air in comparison to other games like WB's and IL FB. It is very capable when flown correctly
Yup.
- oldman
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Jugs are formidable fighters in the MA, even at lower altitudes. The only suspicious thing in the preformance department is that it doesn't out dive anything (as opposed to common belife). Any 190, P-51, La5, will out dive it and spit9 are very hard to catch in a dive unless you go well over 400mph. Zoom climb is no better the "OK" too.
maybe pilot stories were exagereted, perhaps these are the right preformances.
Another thing to concider is that the common jugs, when they were top fighters, were razorbacks with paddle-blade props. Our D11 has't got it and adding one would add ~500fpm to cimb rate and a few much needed mph's, making it the best preforming P47 of the D series.
tried some 109 flying last 2 tours - it's nice but P-47 will not be replaced as my favorite ride.
BRING US D-23 JUGS! :)
Bozon
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I have the AFDU for the P-38F vrs P-47B. I would hardly call it one sided.
The F4U unsuitable for Europe? How so?
Is this a copy of someone elses post? Who are they?
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what ammo said. You wanna try punishment, try flying the Jug in Il-2 FB or WB. AH has the most competitive jug I've seen. It ain't uber or IMO overmodelled by any means. In fact it can be downright frustrating to fly in the MA sometimes, but it has the means to be flown successfully as a fighter.
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Whew, I thought it was just me that thought the P-47 in IL2:FB was modelled kinda like a flying brick.
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Steg,
Next time you're in the arena, seek out Ammo or Frenchy. They are usually glad to demonstrate the capabilities of the AH P-47's.
MiG
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I have to agree with Ammo and Sancho.. Really the best way to make a Jug work is to have a wingman. Thats what I like best about being in this squad. We 'try' to bring our Jug's home.
The good thing about a Jug is you can pick your fights if you fly it right. You can decide to leave a fight. You can out run most anything. Minus the run-90's and ponys.
Jugs rule and all else drools :D
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Originally posted by -ammo-
The P-47 in AH is a breath of fresh air in comparison to other games like WB's and IL FB. It is very capable when flown correctly
Absolutely. One of the reasons I like the Pizza map is because of the high alt conditions where the P47 excels. The only drawback is that because of its weight, its climb rate is somewhat lacklustre.
I enjoyed meeting Gabreski - got an autographed copy of his book.
(http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/gabby.jpg)
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To begin, the P-47M was built from P-47D-27-REs pulled right from the production line and fitted with the more powerful "C" series R-2800-57 engine. It was fitted with dive recovery flaps, revised ailerons (improved roll rate by about 20%) and some other details later added to the -30. Originally, they were built without the wing shackles to minimize drag, although these were later added in theater. As for weight, the difference between the M and the D-27 was a matter of a few pounds. It was much lighter than the P-47N, simply because the N had a larger and heavier wing.
One reason so many would love to have the P-47M in AH is it's speed and climb are excellent. About 370 mph on the deck, up to 480 mph at 32k. At 20k, it would be the fastest accelerating fighter in AH, bar none. Climb at sea level should be about 3,700 fpm, with full fuel and ammo. At 50% fuel, it'll approach 3,900 ft/min. Even at 15k, it should still be climbing at 3,400 ft/min with full tanks. If we ever get the P-47M, count on it being perked like the F4U-4.
As it is, we're limited to the P-47D-30-RE for now, but it's no slug.
Prior to tour 37, and even though I've been playing AH for quite some time now, I hadn't flown 20 sorties in the P-47 since I began and virtually all were heavy attack sorties. Towards the end of tour 37 I decided it was time to learn the Jug. So, I flew both the D-11 and D-30 some, gaining experience and learning their strengths and areas of weakness. Since the Jug is a designated fighter for tour 40 (along with the Corsair...), I flew about 10 sorties at the end of tour 39 as a refresher. Results were good at 39/2, with one loss to ground ack and the other being vulched on the rearm pad. So early in this tour, I've only flown two Jug sorties (only three fighter sorties altogether), but managed to get another 5 without loss, all fighters, all air to air.
It took me a little while to learn some of what Ammo and Sancho already know. The P-47D is a monster as long as you manage your E and stay off the deck when enemy hordes are nearby. This is not the fighter to launch for base defense. However, once you have some speed and alt, you can fight and beat anything, inasmuch as you fight to your fighter's strengths and not to the enemy's strengths.
Simply stated, there is no better handling fighter at high speed than the P-47. Unlike the P-51 and even Ta 152, you will have a hard time hurting the Jug during 550 mph pullouts. You can horse the Thunderbolt around at high speeds without fear of breaking it.
At 400+ mph the Jug rolls very well, whereas many fighters are stiffening up, and 109s begin to bog like they're in concrete. Above 25k the P-47 is extremely formidable. At 30k or above, it owns the sky. Although the Ta 152 is very fast up high, any high G maneuvering is dangerous as its wings come off quite easily. Not so the P-47... It rocks up there. At those altitudes, Mustangs tend to wallow at bit, 190s are simply out of breath, and 109s are constantly dealing with compressibility locking up the ailerons. Russian fighters are all but helpless up high, same for the Japanese junk. Spitfire IXs are reasonably fast, but lack the power reserve to cope with the P-47, and in my opinion can no longer out-turn a P-47, even at lower speeds. Damn few AH pilots have significant combat experience at 30k and above. Some guys have never even been above 20k.
Nonetheless, most air combat takes place below 15k, so how does the P-47 manage to cope at these altitudes? It copes just fine, thank you. Just remember to stay fast, work the vertical and use the Jug's dive acceleration and zoom ability.
I'm sure that Ammo and Sancho have specific load-outs they prefer that offer the most performance for the least sacrifice in killing power. I'll offer those I use and others can comment.
Fighter load-out: Typically, I load 50% internal fuel and a single belly tank. I always take 8 guns, full ammo load. If the sortie will cover more than two sectors (there and back). I may load 75% internal and the belly tank. I never, ever take 100% internal fuel. Endurance on 75% is enough for almost any mission, adding external fuel as required. Generally, the belly tank will get me to altitude and reasonably near my objective. A Jug flying with less than 50% gas is far more agile than one plodding along with full tanks. Some guys even opt for 6 guns to improve agility even more. I'd rather have the extra punch though, 'cause if that little increase in agility is what I need to succeed or even survive, I've already screwed up anyway.
Light/medium Jabo load-out: I use this when joining an attack in a base that will probably be partially down when I arrive. I take fuel and guns as above, add two 250 lbs bombs and 10 rockets. This load allows me to deal with GVs and the rockets can be used against anything spawning or the town as required. Two tours ago I killed 6 B-26s on the runway with a single rocket pass. That's why I always take rockets. In addition, the 8 gun load-out is better should you have to vulch spawning aircraft (if vulching is your goal, take a CHog or Tiffie instead).
For heavy Jabo, two 500 or 1,000 pound bombs and 10 rockets are the standard load just about everyone carries. I rarely drag that much to a target as the tactical disadvantage of miserable climb rate means extending the ride duration and often arriving at less than the optimal altitude (18k AGL for me).
Spend some time in the TA flying the Jug against various fighters. Practice at high altitudes too. Then, strive to improve one's SA. That, more than any other factor, will determine how well you do, regardless of what you elect to fly. Knowing where every actual and potential threat is, its altitude and E state is paramount to success in the MA. That means keeping one's head on a perpetual swivel and checking the DAR every few minutes at the least. The goal is never to be surprised. If you've recently uttered the words, "something just killed me!", your SA needs work.
How does this relate to the P-47? Well, if you have a good understanding on how to exploit the airplane, combined with superior SA, you will be a terror to any enemy you encounter.
My regards,
Widewing
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Well, first I have become very rusty and impatient in the past weeks. So, you can find me in the weds at the hottest and biggest furball on the map normally.
To survive in the jug..IMO first and foremost is learn to shoot! You need to be able to pull of those oblique shots. The quickest way to get dead in a jug is to get embroiled in a dogfight with another AC and have many enemy's in the vicinity. That isn't a problem if you kill him at first oppertunity. If you miss your oppertunity, best look for some extention and recover a good position. Most frustrating position to be in for me a jug, have several kills, and manage to escape from a bad situation with multiple enemy (spits, N1k's, low wingloaded AC). You have exchanged all that altitude for some speed and escape and you see mr La7 or Mr dora or mustang coming for you. They pass the still pursuing spits and N1k's and force you to break hard which leaves the fast AC without a shot but now the spits and N1K's are all over ya! Its a vicious cycle:D
IF you achieve good gunnery, then your experience in the jug will be much more enjoyable. Put those 8x50's to good use! no spraying, use disciplined tactics, ie wait till your within your killing cone (if your set your convergence to 300 yds, then your killing cone is out to 600. I like all 8 of my guns set at 300).
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For all the advice, no one seems to understand. The P-47D-11 was able to EAT the FW-190A series for Breakfast. It is not reflected in Any arena save one that I've been in and it was an offline game. Nothing out dove it, yet in AH everything Does. The P-47 M was what the 358th Fighter Wing Got when they demanded to keep the T-bolt. The F4u was first flown by the Brits , and first launched of Carriers by Brits. They Proved that the corsair could not compete with the German Aircraft. They admired the Thunderbolt so much, that they ordered 500 of the P-47N models when the war was moved to the Pacific. The War was over before any could be delivered. The F4u fights so well and the P-47 fights SO POOR BS!
And I meet and had a very interesting convesation with the man that winged Gabby, R Johnson, Zemke and most every other T-bolt ace in Europe. His Exacy words"Nothing could beat a Thunerbolt above 27,000 ft."
When we going to see that?
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Check the performace charts stegahorse. Above 25k the d11 is faster and climbs better than the 190A-5. The A-8 is even worse. But the D11 is not some superplane that lets you shoot down any other plane at will. If you come up against someone better at flying a 190 than you are flying a Jug then you die.
The Corsair was a very good fighter and US pilots at the joint fighter conference tended to agree that it was better than the P47 below 20k.
You're taking what Gabreski said too literally. Any plane could be shot down and the Thunderbolt was no exception. I'd bet at least one was shot down above 27,000ft. What you're missing is that very few planes can compete on even terms with a Jug at hi-alt.
Just the other day I chased a g-10 from 16k up to 35k. Once we got up to 30k I closed the distance from 4k down to 2k and then he tried to spiral climb on me. Here's (http://sshamblin.members.atlantic.net/film120.ahf) what happened. We just went round and round until it was obvious I'd run out of fuel before anything happened. I didnt dominate but there was nothing he could do to shake me.
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Originally posted by Stegahorse
For all the advice, no one seems to understand. The P-47D-11 was able to EAT the FW-190A series for Breakfast. It is not reflected in Any arena save one that I've been in and it was an offline game. Nothing out dove it, yet in AH everything Does. The P-47 M was what the 358th Fighter Wing Got when they demanded to keep the T-bolt. The F4u was first flown by the Brits , and first launched of Carriers by Brits. They Proved that the corsair could not compete with the German Aircraft. They admired the Thunderbolt so much, that they ordered 500 of the P-47N models when the war was moved to the Pacific. The War was over before any could be delivered. The F4u fights so well and the P-47 fights SO POOR BS!
And I meet and had a very interesting convesation with the man that winged Gabby, R Johnson, Zemke and most every other T-bolt ace in Europe. His Exacy words"Nothing could beat a Thunerbolt above 27,000 ft."
When we going to see that?
The ONLY WW2 unit that flew the P-47M operationally was the 56 FG.
While I will agree that the FM's are not perfect in AH, the P-47 models not withstanding, it is a very tough thing to model correctly. Pilot anctedotes cannot be considered gospel.
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StegaHorse,
Are you feeling ok?
The Brits proved the F4U could not compete with German A/C??
Where exactly did you read that??
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StegaHorse,
Just read more of your post.
FYI.
The P-47 had a dive restriction of 500MPH IAS.
The P-51 had a restriction of 505MPH and the P-63 was 525MPH. So there is no such thing as "it could outdive anything".
Until the P-47N which had clipped wings it had a very moderate roll rate and because of high wing loading it had a poor turning circle.
If it was in fact superior to these other A/C what part of it's performance made it so?
Take a look here. The P-47 weight was a little chunkier than you think.
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/alliedchrts1.jpg)
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actually, while the P-47's didn't have an good low speed turning rate, it had outstanding control at high speed.
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I think stega was referring to the many acounts of P-47 pilots claiming to easily out-accelerate German planes in a dive. I agree that for the most part it just doesnt work out like that in AH. At least, not like the pilots make it sound.
Against moderatey fast planes any diving advantage the P47 has is slim. I've had Spitfire IX's closing slowly on my 6 follow me through 550mph dives and come out going exactly the same speed as my D30. Against 190s and 109G's the advantage is even less. Relative E-states and timing of the dive start is usually more important than actual performace in the dive. Only against Zero's and early war types can you see a big advantage that can get you out of a tight spot fairly easily.
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I read Bob Johnson's book. He claimed nothing was close to being able to catch his jug in a dive. It's the only account I have read one way or the other. I understand his love of the plane may have influenced his prose but OTOH I don't have any accounts to the contrary.
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Stegahorse, you forget something when you say the P47 was able to eat the FW190A for breakfast.
This is right for WW2 and for AH.
But only under certain circumstances.
The P47 will eat any FW190A once you meet it above 25k.
This is because it has much more power there due to its supercharger.
i.e. there are many german pilot accounts that the FW190A easily outperformed the P47. This is also right in WW2 and in AH, again under certain circumtances.
At low altittudes the FW190A will outperform the P47 cause it has the better speed and climb at low/med alts, as the FW190A was a low/med alt fighter and the P47 was a high altittude escort fighter.
Especially the light FW190A5 will do very well against a P47.
And the reason why the USAAF considered the F4U or F6 not suitable for the European Combat Theatre was the fact that both fighters were low/med altittude fighters, but over Europe the USAAF primarily needed fighters that could escort the streams of B17s at 25+k.
And with the old rivalry between the Army, Navy and the Marine the USAAF might have just stick to their own fighters insteed of admit that the Navy/Marines had the better fighters. ;)
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While I will agree that the FM of the P-47 in AH is not perfect by my perception, I have success using a "zero-G" dive to escape enemy fighters. I do have trouble diving away from spitfires. Why? I dunno. But I get away from 109's and 190's most of the time. I get the AC up to a speed just shy of lockup and then make subtle directional changes. Alot of the time, the enemy cant follow, or just chooses to recover his perch above the fight.
109's? I walk away from them in a dive pretty easily. Once the speed gets terminal, I just do a flick of the alerons and see ya 109.
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Naudet,
There was nothing that prevented the F4F, F6F or F4U from combat in the European theater except logistics and interservice rivalry. In fact the F4F and F6F scored several kills in Europe. And the F4U did see some combat although no ariel combat. One Brit pilot even landed a F4U at a German base but I haven't seen any german evaluations.
Barret Tillman has a quote from Commander Thomas H. Moorer of the NavAirLant staff during a breifing on project "Danny" which had MAG 51 5 squadrons of F4U's delivering 11.75" Tiny Tim Rockets to V-1 sites in Europe.
Moorer says that Gen. George C Marshall came into the meeting and said quote "That's the end of this briefing. As long as I'm in charge there will never be a Marine in Europe".
FYI. Moorer went on to become chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
I have no idea if there were actually Marines in Europe or not but it certainly doesn't sound like altitude problems to me.
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Ah, but the P47 indeed does have a dive advantage ove the 109s and 190s - while it can pull out at 550 with use of dive flaps, the 109s and 190 models i've flown are compressed by then, take em low enough and if they follow.... splat
Take em low enough in the dive
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check this:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zwgeq&tpage=1
Now I know why most Jug jocks will stay with AH ;).
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Moorer says that Gen. George C Marshall came into the meeting and said quote "That's the end of this briefing. As long as I'm in charge there will never be a Marine in Europe".
F4UDOA, LOL that really doesnt sound like altitude problems. :)
As i not really deep into US-planes, altitude was my 1st thought but seems my 2nd that it was just one of this old Army vs. Marines vs. Navy rivalry things.
The Marines and the Navy took the pacific, so the Army couldnt let them take europe too. ;) :D
@Hristo: Not just the Jugs jockeys do a good thing staying in AH, the FW190D9 maniacs do as well. God, IL2:FB is something like a commercial for Sowjet fighterplane, never will i spent any money on an Oleg Maddox game again. :mad:
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Originally posted by Naudet
At low altittudes the FW190A will outperform the P47 cause it has the better speed and climb at low/med alts, as the FW190A was a low/med alt fighter and the P47 was a high altittude escort fighter.
Especially the light FW190A5 will do very well against a P47.
An age-old debate; count me on the side of the 47 afficionados. FWIW, I add the following account from Roger A. Freeman’s Bible of 8th AF operations, “The Mighty Eighth,” at page 125. What I like about the AH P-47 (at least, the D11), is that it is possible to duplicate Mahurin’s third encounter (note altitudes).
This occurred on the March 6, 1944 mission to Berlin. At the time Mahurin, of the 56th FG, had 16 victories:
- oldman
Captain Walker Mahurin, leading Red Flight, said: "At the time of the attack, we were unaware of the actual presence of the E/A. We first noticed them when we began to see the flashes of the 20-mm shells bursting around the firsts division of bombers....by the time we got into the combat vicinity the concentrated attack had been dispersed leaving the E/A flying singly and in twos and threes down on the clouds at 7,000 feet.
"I noticed three of these E/A about 11 o'clock to me down low: after considerable manoeuvring, I was in a position to attack one of these E/A, a single Me109. As I came down on him he saw me, and after one turn to the left, he headed down for the clouds. I found myself closing on his tail. I fired several short bursts, none of which hit him. He finally disappeared into the clouds.
"When I pulled up from this attack, I sighted a single FW190 at about 9 o'clock to my flight, heading down for the deck. This Jerry also saw me. As soon as the element of surprise was gone I knew I would be forced to follow him before he straightened out, before I could make a proper attack. We milled around and around in a turning circle to the left, until suddenly the 190 straightened out and headed for one of the half-mile-in-diameter clouds which covered the area. As he did so, I closed in behind him and started to fire. By this time we were both in the cloud and it turned out to be considerably thinner than either one of us had anticipated. I could still see the Hun, and when I fired I saw many hits on both of his wings, as well as a few on his fuselage. I was close enough to him so that my hits did not converge to a point. I was then forced to break off the attack as the cloud obscured him. This 190 I claim as probably destroyed, because I hit him quite heavily.
"By this time the flight had worked itself down to about 3,000 feet and were darting in and out of the clouds trying to spot more Huns. The Huns were darting in and out of the clouds trying to evade Thunderbolts.
"As we climbed back towards the bombers, I looked over the side of my ship and spotted a Thunderbolt in a turning circle to the left with an FW190 on its tail. I immediately called on the R/T to tell the '47 to break left, however, I later discovered that it was a ship from the 78th Group and on a different frequency to ours. I led the flight into attack the 190, which was all silver and with a large black "V" painted on its side. He saw us coming, because he broke the attack and began to turn left to save his own hide. I throttled back and closed in behind him, but held my fire until he, too, would straighten out.
"In the turn itself I was only just able to stay with him, both of us would stall a bit and then recover. However, when I added water I was able to out-turn him and also able to go around the circle faster than he did. I got within 150 yards of him and stayed there. After we had both gone around the circle several times, he pulled up into a steep climb. I followed and was able to get in a few shots, as I closed on him in the climb. As he fell off, he rolled over in order to pull the old stand-by of the Luftwaffe - the split S. I followed this also, gaining on him in the dive. When he pulled out of the dive he headed straight for the clouds in the same manner as the other Jerry had. I was able to pepper him soundly, seeing many hits on both wings and fuselage. The Jerry appeared to be having difficulty in flying his ship. He made a 180 degree turn to the left, and as I pulled up I saw his canopy fly off and saw him jump over the side."
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I don't know about a P-47 out diving a 109 or a 190 (seems likely they could out dive a 109, the controls stiffen up at ~400 mph, all the P-47 would have to do is roll and change direction slightly), but niether the 109 or the 190 will out dive a Spitfire IX in a steep dive. They can both outrun Spit IX's by diving shallow to build up speed and then pulling level or into a slight climb until the Spitfire's speed has worn off.
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Oldmann, as you noticed i made a special mention of the A5.
In March 1944 the P47 usually faced heavy loaded A7s or A8s that lost most of their advantages.
Here the describtion of an encounter from Willy Reschke with his FW190A8/R2 against two P47s.
After a fierce fight with USAAF escorts, were the P51s outnumbered Reschkes Gruppe, he managed to get away from the fighting. On his return flight Reschke ran into 2 P47s at 2000ms.
He mentions that his FW190 turned much better than the P47s and without a problem he was behind the 2nd P47 within two turns and hit him with a quick burst. The P47 started to smoke and headed for home, the other P47 did the same and ran to the west.
Reschke who was more interested to get home in one piece than to score another kill, decided to land at his homeairfield.
You see, it works both sides. :)
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I read Francis Gabreski's book about a month ago, and started flying the P-47 in the MA, to get the feeling of what I had read; I have been flying it almost exclusively since then. It is a beast, and forgiving as long as you have plenty of speed. I chose the P-47 D30, and use it mostly to Jabo, but then I stick around :)
I am still learning it but so far I have found that it is great at altitude, where many other a/c seem to be standing still as I go after them. If at or below 200 kias, ya may as well go home, because it is too slow to keep in the air (yer stall buzzer will stay on). It is a fine jabo, and has airbrakes as you dive onto a target. It's dive is incredible, and you hafta be careful or you will be in exces of 400 kias and not know until too late. Its roll rate is excellent, and you can get decent turning for limited periods by use of hi speed flaps and airbrakes.
The 8 .50 cal guns are as awesome as the 4 20mm of an FW A8, and prolly more accurate.
Historically it was the most manufactured a/c in US history, even more than the P-51; that had to happen for a reason.
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Ammo is correct,
People who are getting outdived are not using zero G, or the dive angle is too shallow and they are getting out engined..
at zero g the Jug dives like a brick... stable and effective... In my opinion the only plane that comes close to dive acceleration is the p38.. and she shakes like a earthquake...
While were on this topic of JUGs im curious what others use for their convergence...
Mine is set staggered at 4 guns 275m and 4 guns 300m...
This gives me a nice pattern for snapshots and high deflection solutions... nose low breaking planes almost always get tagged with this setup..
I was dogfighting superior aircraft in the training arena the other day, the JUG has attributes alot of the other heavies dont have... First and Foremost, stability... The Jug near stall speed is extremely stable with flap usage...again i say with flap usage.... even under 150mph now it doesn't turn too well but in such a situation being able to point your nose high with out stalling could allow to do mini high yo yo's with ease... This translates into a non turning jug able to saddle people for minimum of at least a gun solution...
that means death for the bad guy... Try that in a corsair.. and youll spin all over the place.....
These little advantages add up...
exp... when i want to accelerate i never level off.... I nose down .5k per min and lose 500ft, big deal on the alt. loss my acceleration is nearly 1.5-2times that if i were level.... in other aircraft you dont get that type of bonus...
I fly the D11.. and sometimes the d30..
1 500lbr isn't as bad as it seems considering the .50 cal loadout....
IMO the D11 is the best version... Views take alittle getting use to but the stablity and weight difference are very noticable.. yeah you also notice the lackluster climb also... no plane is perfect...
2 cents...
DoctorYO
PS: I give free lessons in the TA for anyone interested...
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IMO the D11 is the best version... Views take alittle getting use to but the stablity and weight difference are very noticable.. yeah you also notice the lackluster climb also... no plane is perfect...
I can only hope that in AH2 we'll get a razorback with a paddle blade prop. She'll be faster then the D30 and about the same in climb (and still handles better). The D11 really needs just that little extra power - She'll be perfect then :)
Bozon
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"While were on this topic of JUGs im curious what others use for their convergence...
Mine is set staggered at 4 guns 275m and 4 guns 300m... "
I like to put all 8 of mine at 300 yds. I really like the results when you you hit them at that range.
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there was an interveiw with Gabreski on the history channel once and he said the P47 D-11 was his favourite because after that they added too much armour and weight to the aircraft for his liking. He says the reason was that for every 10lbs of weight and engine needs a 100HP to negate it.
What we have in AH is the problem that the MA does in no way represent the typical skies of WW2.
we dont have the same length of time flying these aircraft as those pilots did.We dont often fly in the numbers and formations they did.We dont have the limits of strength and tollerance to G that they did.We dont have the fear of death the worry and pressure.
When the LW began to collapse they had a SEVERE drop in the average pilots skill. Just take a look at the gun camera films.Some of those 190s are shot don flying level with their drop tanks still on.The pilots encountered once the LW was battered in 1943-44 were mostly green pilots with less than a few hours flying time in the combat aircraft. The allies began to see so few of the LW that even the aces like gabreski struggled to find them in great numbers and often when they did encounter them the allies had numbers advantage.
Even the simple addition of a wingman can make a P47 change from a good aircraft into a GREAT aircraft. I'd imagine if we flew P47s in the later stages of WW2 and encountered 190s above 27,000 we would also say we were unbeatable.That doesnt mean that if we suddenly left our squadron and piled into the 190s on our own that we would be garenteed a win does it?.
what these pilots statements tell us is more the overall picture of the WHOLE air situation. They are commenting on how they felt , ie how safe they felt in those planes and what it was like to face enemies up there. It isnt a coldy scientific interpretation.
The best place to look for this more scientific comparison is in the government tests performed on captured aircraft.The pilots who test the planes have the unique experience of flying both the enemy and friendly aircraft usually in a safe area where the emotional pressure of possibly dieing to enemy fire is removed from the analasis.Same way it is in AH really.
I think the P47 in AH is a good aircraft. On comparison with the 190a5 which i have flown a lot I would say the P47 is the better aircraft because it exceeds the 190s performance in areas which allow fight dictation. It has better high alt performance and is also very rugged (in AH i think it seems a tad weak). It can outturn the 190 at high speed and has flaps that are actually usefull in combat.It also has more capabilities due to the possible loadout options.
I think you just need to change the way you are using it and a good way would be to ask ammo to fly some with you and teach you how to use it :D
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I think the P-47s are better 'fighters' than the 190A-8 and D-9, but not as good as a 109 or the 190A5.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I like to put all 8 of mine at 300 yds.
Me, too.
- oldman
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While talking of my favorite plane, can anyone tell me what the differences are between the versions? (like 11, 25 and 30)
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D11 is lighter and turns a lot better, canopy design is "cage" not "bubble", having less visibility. Its also a bit slower than the other P-47s.
D25 and D30 are almost identical, the D30 having hardpoints for more ordenance which cause more drag and take off like 5 or 10 mph off the speed (compared to D30).
D30 has dive flaps.
Both D25 and D30 are faster overall but much worse turners than the D30 (since they are heavier).
All 3 are F- UGLY ;)
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Originally posted by OIO
the D30 having hardpoints for more ordenance which cause more drag and take off like 5 or 10 mph off the speed (compared to D30).
lol, you'd might consider editing this :D
And the jug isnt ugly!!
tnx tho
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Originally posted by OIO
D11 is lighter and turns a lot better, canopy design is "cage" not "bubble", having less visibility. Its also a bit slower than the other P-47s.
D25 and D30 are almost identical, the D30 having hardpoints for more ordenance which cause more drag and take off like 5 or 10 mph off the speed (compared to D30).
D30 has dive flaps.
Both D25 and D30 are faster overall but much worse turners than the D30 (since they are heavier).
All 3 are F- UGLY ;)
Actually the fastest of the three at all altitudes is the D11.
The D11 is slightly more manueverable, but it does turn "alot" better. A better statemnt would be that it it is more forgiving in a stall fight:)
The D25 and the D30 are identical in FM, however the D30 has a more powerful WEP system allowing a better climbrate. The D30 has zero length rocket rails while the d25 must have the attached rocket tubes if the user chooses to use rockets. The tubes hurt your Air to Air performance.
All three AC are the most beautifull military AC ever produced.
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The D25 and the D30 are identical in FM
I'm not completly sure about that. The D25 seems to stall a bit differently. It tends to start flying sideways when stalled at low speeds, seems like it's less stable in the yaw direction.
It can happen in the D30 as well but less often and never happened to me in D11.
anyway, they are pretty darn close in FM.
Bozon
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Originally posted by OIO
All 3 are F- UGLY ;)
Originally posted by -ammo-
All three AC are the most beautifull military AC ever produced
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I bow to Ammo's knowledge of the Jug, he flies them more than I do. I always thought the later models were faster, thats a surprise!
Oh, and they are f-ugly. Ammo flies on beer goggles. Just look at that sheep he wed ;)
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Bozon thats because the D30 has a tail fillet right in front of the rudder that negates that yaw. The D25 lacks this and thus is less stable at stalls.
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when talking of turbo chargers...I know a turbo charger 'charges' itself to produce an extra bite of aderaline to the engine. but how exactly does this thing work?
anyone know's?
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http://rwebs.net/avhistory/history/supercha.htm
Basically, a turbo charger is an air pump that is powered by the engines exaust. As the hot exaust spins the the turbine, the turbine then pumps fresh air into the intake manifolds (as opposed to naturally aspirated engines which rely on atmospheric pressure to feed air tot he intake manifold). More air, more power.
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Turbochargers and superchargers both work by compressing the air entering the engine, allowing more air to be driven into the cylinders on each stroke. Essentially, hooking a high-pressure pump over the air intake. Superchargers are directly driven by the engine itself; turbochargers work like the compressor and turbine rotors in a jet engine -- the hot exhaust gases spin the turbine, which spins the compressor to push more air into the engine.
Turbochargers are inherently more efficient, because they use wasted energy -- the hot exhaust gas -- to drive the compressor. However, they also add back pressure to the exhaust, reducing the efficiency at lower RPMs (less boost at lower RPMs compared to a supercharger), and 'turbine lag' (the time between punching the throttle and getting boost from the turbocharger) limits its responsiveness to sudden throttle changes. Superchargers don't suffer from turbine lag, being driven directly by the engine. However, they're more complicated to make and maintain.
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I've also heared something like a water-injection for an extra boost (it's from Microsoft combat flight simulator pacific war)
and didn't the B-17's and other bombers had turbochargers for heigh alts too?
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A turbocharger compresses the air going into the engine in order to force more air than would be possible with the atmospheric pressure. More air into the engine means automatically more fuel has to be injected in order to maintain the appropriate stoichiometric value of the air/fuel ratio (around 14:1). More air and fuel into the engine leads to more power. However, by compressing the inlet air the turbocharger also heats it. Higher air temperatures lead to thinner air and therefore an altered stoichiometric ratio which can lead to a lean mixture and detonation (knocking or pinging, which in severe cases can damage an engine).
In high-pressure turbocharged engines the air/fuel mixture that enters the cylinders can, in some cases, explode prematurely (before the spark plug ignites) due to the extreme engine environment conditions. This situation is extremely destructive and results in severe engine damage (piston piercing). To avoid damaging the engine by detonation or pre-ignition phenomena, water is injected, along with fuel, into the combustion chambers in order to provide a water/air/fuel mixture which not only burns more efficiently and avoids detonation or pre-ignition but also provides additional inlet air cooling and, hence, denser air. The water can be added at several different points along the intake path, but it performs the same function regardless of where it's added.
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P38 out accelerates the jug in the dive initially. But after 300mph the jug just leaves the 38 eating dust.
It is, after all, nothing more than a huge lawndart with a prop. :D
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ammo flies a good case for the p47 being effective when flown right :D
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Actually the fastest of the three at all
All three AC are the most beautifull military AC ever produced.
I agree...Right after the F4U-4...
Gainsie
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Heres a kind of strange question- Why didn't the Air Force use F4Us and P47s instead of the A1D skyraiders in Vietnam?
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Well, the P-47 had two stage charger system. The auxilary stage was a turbo and engine stage was mechanical. The turbo just keeped constant pressure in the manifolds between auxilary stage and engine stage up to it's critical altitude ie to altitude where the turbo reached it's max safe spinning speed.
It should be noted that in the mechanical supercharger system energy of ehaust gases can be used for propulsion.
gripen
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Heres a kind of strange question- Why didn't the Air Force use F4Us and P47s instead of the A1D skyraiders in Vietnam?
Think payload.
The A-1 could carry seven or eight thousand pounds of external fuel and weapons. The heavier WWII-era fighters (such as the P-47 and F4U) could typically carry about four or five thousand. More importantly, the Skyraider had 12 wing stations and 3 fuselage stations for external ordnance, as well as its wing-mounted 4 x 20mm. Most WWII fighters had only three or four stations, and could only get up to maximum payload by using two of them for 2,000 lb. bombs. The A-1s had a lot more flexibility when deciding what loadout to carry for ground attack.
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plus the skyraiders were still in warranty
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Did some searching, apparently a ground attack variant of the F4U was made, but it was a dog. Called the F4AU-1
AU-1
The AU-1 was a ground-attack version based on the -5NL. It had a R-2800-83WA producing 2800Hp. It featured increased armor overall, and carried 4 20-mm cannon, each with 231 rounds. Additionally, 10 stub pylons, up from 8, were fitted under the outer wing panels for the carriage of 5 inch rockets. However, it was a poor flyer, and 111 were built during production from February to October 1952.
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Let me see the P38 out turns out accelerates and out climbs Jug.
How does it win handsdown from a P38?
Must have been the pilot i guess.
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I think in game a P-38 is better, it might not be better up really high (like 30k), but lower it is better.
But the P-47 is cooler :).
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Its also beter looking than the P-38. Additionally, its WW2 history is deeper than that of the P-38 (step child sent to Afrika).
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I'd say different, don't know about deeper. The P-38 was a great plane in the Pacific, the P-47 was mainly Europe.
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What place stands the first P47 ace in USA WO2 ranking?
At least the first two where P38 pilots and ground kills didn't count on them.
;)
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
What place stands the first P47 ace in USA WO2 ranking?
At least the first two where P38 pilots and ground kills didn't count on them.
;)
Gabreski comes in third, I think, with 28 (30.5 or 31 including ground kills - not sure on that one).
Charles MacDonald (P-38) and Robert Johnson (P-47) tied in fourth with 27.
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as far as ace standings between planes, not a good comparison by itself. At the time guys like gabreski and johson were slugging it out the the luftwaffe the p38 had already been shown to be the wrong plane in the wrong theatre. Out in the pacific the 38 scored well because its range was superior to the 47 and the opposition was far outclassed by the p38's speed and alt performance. Another reason the 38 was appreciated in the pac was the insurance policy of the 2cnd engine, although takeoff and landing on one engine was apparently a real trick.
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Originally posted by bockko
At the time guys like gabreski and johson were slugging it out the the luftwaffe the p38 had already been shown to be the wrong plane in the wrong theatre.
I don't know about that on either count.
Gabreski and Johnson both started their P-47 careers against the Luftwaffe in mid-1943, well before the ETO P-38 Groups (20th and 55th) went active.
As for "the wrong plane in the wrong theatre" - the P-51 certainly proved itself a better aircraft for 8th Air Force, but 9th Air Force's P-38s did good work well into 1945. 474th FG in particular specifically insisted on keeping the Lightning, and flew the type up until V-E Day.
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Actually P-38's were in the ETO in mid 43 along with the first P-47's. Gen Eaker made a descision to send them to Afrika. There was a huge push to defeat Rommel there and it was given priority. It was a matter of circumstance and politics why the P-38's were sent south as opposed to the P-47s.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Actually P-38's were in the ETO in mid 43 along with the first P-47's. Gen Eaker made a descision to send them to Afrika.
Are you sure about that mid-43 part? The 1st, 14th and 82nd FGs deployed to England in 1942 with P-38Fs, but all were transferred to North Africa by the end of the year.
The 78th FG remained in England with P-38s, but by the end of January had converted to P-47s, their Lightnings sent to North Africa to fill the shortage.
In any case, it was not until the 20th and 55th FGs went active that the well-known problems with the Lightning in the ETO (which bockko commented on) were realised.
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I think you are more correct than I am. I do know that P-38's were in the ETO prior to and at the time the P-47 arrived in England.
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O yeah and first USAF fighter over berlin.
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The P38 meight be better, but in the war there just where to few planes, he biggest part of all the kills was made by the Thunderbolts
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Originally posted by frank3
The P38 meight be better, but in the war there just where to few planes, he biggest part of all the kills was made by the Thunderbolts
The P-47 Groups certainly comprised the backbone of 8th Air Force's fighter strength well into 1944, and were instrumental in attriting and pushing back the Luftwaffe.
Nonetheless, the P-47's limited range was a serious problem. Although the P-38s didn't do so well in terms of kills (and the persistent engine failures exacerbated the "too few" problem), their presence was important to fill the gap in long-range escort until P-51 numbers could be increased.
While we're on the topic of having too few P-38s, spare a thought for the poor MTO units, who were at the back of the queue for upgrades - one particularly beloved P-38F was retired with flak damage in late May, 1944, after 17 months in combat!
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Lets not also forget that the P-47 groups were up against a mighty LW in late 43 on till the demise of the LW. They didn't have a checklist on how to defeat the 109 and the 190 there in the UK waiting on them, they had to create their own tactics and fight that healthy LW. That in itself is a significant tribute to the P-47 and the FG's that employed it.
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When pilot after pilot repeats the same story time after time, it still is anecdotal? HARRUMPH!
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Depends.
Pilots repeated stories of bouncing .50 bullets under the bellies of tanks to destroy it.
However, that is nothing but one of those "war tales" that is spread from pilot to pilot, mouth to mouth - which everyone believed it to be true, until now.
...
Objective examination of what pilots have to say, and what might have caused them to say such things, is always necessary. Their comments may be absolutely true, or may be relatively. It could also be partially false or absolutely false.
To historians, first hand experience is actually the trickiest of historical data to handle.
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Originally posted by Stegahorse
This is Directly off the Thunderbolt Pilots assn message board:
The Corsair's and Evansville Built Thunderbolt's wing ends were built by the same company in Evansville. Their primary manufacturing was the Higgin's Boats.
It just ain't right!!!
Off subject, but I live in Evansville. We are going to be visited next month by a real, live WW2 LST. Y'all come on down!
BTW, the Republic factory is still here--it is now owned by Whirlpool, and they make refrigerators. The Kaiser Aluminum plant is also still here, now owned by ALCOA. The LST shipyard burned down under mysterious circumstances in 1946, and the site is now a pharmaceutical plant.
shubie
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Originally posted by Shiva
Turbochargers and superchargers both work by compressing the air entering the engine, allowing more air to be driven into the cylinders on each stroke. Essentially, hooking a high-pressure pump over the air intake. Superchargers are directly driven by the engine itself; turbochargers work like the compressor and turbine rotors in a jet engine -- the hot exhaust gases spin the turbine, which spins the compressor to push more air into the engine.
Turbochargers are inherently more efficient, because they use wasted energy -- the hot exhaust gas -- to drive the compressor. However, they also add back pressure to the exhaust, reducing the efficiency at lower RPMs (less boost at lower RPMs compared to a supercharger), and 'turbine lag' (the time between punching the throttle and getting boost from the turbocharger) limits its responsiveness to sudden throttle changes. Superchargers don't suffer from turbine lag, being driven directly by the engine. However, they're more complicated to make and maintain.
Only one disagreement--the hot section of a turbocharger is sometimes the source of problems, with oil cooking, blade degradation, and high temperatures. Mechanical superchargers have only a compressor section and a clutch (usually), so they are less prone to heat damage.
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Turns out that the 47D-11 may have been a Pacific fighter
42-22864/23113 Republic P-47D-11-RA Thunderbolt
22896 (35th FG) lost Mar 11, 1944, SW Pacific.
22920 (35th FG) lost Mar 14, 1944, SW Pacific.
22949 (8th FG) lost May 12, 1945, New Guinea.
22953 (58th FG) lost Apr 11, 1944, SW Pacific.
22963 (69th FS, 58th FG) crashed on takeoff Mar 6, 1944, Padzap, PNG Mar 6, 1944.
22979 lost in controlled flight Jun 16, 1944 and pilot bailed out 20 mi off
Hehehehe
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Whats crazy is look at the dates... all 1944. A rolling plane-set would absolutely gut the US fliers.
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An RPS would likely cause me to delete my account.
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One of the best planes in AH, also one of the most underestimated. Easy kill when a newbie or even an average pilot flies it. Put an experienced pilot in it, specially one who has flown energy planes before such as 190, P51 or similair and he'll be able to outturn most things aswell as outfight them using any technique available, not one of the easy planes to fly, it is however, one of the very best.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
An RPS would likely cause me to delete my account.
Just out of curiosity, Why? It would be different, granted, but is different neccessarily bad?
shubie
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Actually the P-47 isn't that good. For the MA, the P-51 and P-38 are better than the P-47 for any kind of fighting. I'd take a 190A-5 over a P-47 also, and any of the 109s (although the P-47 has a lot more firepower). The La-7 is markedly superior in all respects, the Spit IX is superior at everything other than top speed, so is the N1K2. So yea, you can put an experienced pilot in a P-47 and he'll do ok, but he'll do better in any of the above planes.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Actually the P-47 isn't that good. For the MA, the P-51 and P-38 are better than the P-47 for any kind of fighting. I'd take a 190A-5 over a P-47 also, and any of the 109s (although the P-47 has a lot more firepower). The La-7 is markedly superior in all respects, the Spit IX is superior at everything other than top speed, so is the N1K2. So yea, you can put an experienced pilot in a P-47 and he'll do ok, but he'll do better in any of the above planes.
Listen to urchin, he's the clever one:p
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Because I want to log in and fly what I want, when I want. The P-47 is my ride of choice, however I do fly other AC. All the P-47's in our planeset were introduced into theatre 1944 or later.
I am a full time father, husband, USAF member, and college student. I dont have alot of time to spare.
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I agree with ammo, RPS would suck big time.
As for P47, it will outturn 190 easily, D11 will outturn P51 too most likely. P47 accelerates like the devil (although IMO it doesn't accelerate good enough), firepower like a 190 but thanks to 50 cal it's easier to hit. I'd take a Jug over a niki or spit or LA7 any day.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
P47 accelerates like the devil
I'd take a Jug over a niki or spit or LA7 any day.
You sure as heck don't have a clue of what you are talking about:o the rest, I agree. Except the D30 will not outturn the A5.
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hate to let the secrets of the jug out, but they've been touched on already. here's some load-out ideas that work for me.
maybe "don'ts" will be useful . . . 1) don't take 8 50's with 427 (or what ever it is) per gun. 1a) try the 6 50's w/267's rounds per gun. if after several sorties, you find yourself bingo ammo & still in good shape wishing you had more ammo, move up to the 4 50's w/267. if you've turned into a killing machine, then opt for the 6 50's with 427 rounds per gun. IF you've become the juginator, then the 8 50's with 426 rounds is your ticket. mostly, i opt for the 2 smallest gun packages.
2) don't take 100% fuel. 2a) try 50% with dt. it's just a smidge less than 75% fuel. 3) don't loadout 2-1,000 lbs bombs, 10 rkts, AND the 500lb bomb. 3a) if you're a divebombing pro try for the 3-500lb'ers. if you dive bomb poorly, grab 10 rkts. if you're a "tweener" w/dive bomb skill, 10 rkts, 1-500 lb bomb, 3-50's w/267 per gun 50% fuel.
last idea which some may HATE. if you like the idea of flying the jug on fiter sorties, take 50% fuel & a dt, 4-50's 267 rounds per gun then on take-off empty 1/2 your ammo load. yes, it will fubar your hits average. but if you don't care, you'll find the jug gets can get amazingly agile.
flaps are your friend in a jug. 1 notch is usu enough to help turn nose down & around in a low yo-yo.
i agree with kweassa
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Originally posted by Urchin
Whew, I thought it was just me that thought the P-47 in IL2:FB was modelled kinda like a flying brick.
Yeah if it ain't Sov it probably sucks...
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Originally posted by Stegahorse
For all the advice, no one seems to understand. The P-47D-11 was able to EAT the FW-190A series for Breakfast. It is not reflected in Any arena save one that I've been in and it was an offline game. Nothing out dove it, yet in AH everything Does. The P-47 M was what the 358th Fighter Wing Got when they demanded to keep the T-bolt. The F4u was first flown by the Brits , and first launched of Carriers by Brits. They Proved that the corsair could not compete with the German Aircraft. They admired the Thunderbolt so much, that they ordered 500 of the P-47N models when the war was moved to the Pacific. The War was over before any could be delivered. The F4u fights so well and the P-47 fights SO POOR BS!
And I meet and had a very interesting convesation with the man that winged Gabby, R Johnson, Zemke and most every other T-bolt ace in Europe. His Exacy words"Nothing could beat a Thunerbolt above 27,000 ft."
When we going to see that?
You'll begin to see this when people actually FIGHT at 27K and not dive out when they see a co alt con at that alt. Furthermore, I suggest you read barret Tillman's "Corsair," book. He openly talks about messing with Jug pilots at 15-20k, then giving the 47 pilots the bitd, and rolling away when the Jug pilots hold up their oxygen masks, and gesture to climb out.
And I have to agree with other statements. Plane ability is only as good as pilot knowledge. any skilled pilot can win with a substandard ride, but an inexperienced pilot cannot be trusted even when flyig the finest aircraft in the sky. Just sitting in some rides, especially the Corsair and Jug, will not make you an Ace.
Regards,
Gainsie
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Originally posted by Stegahorse
"The F4u was first flown by the Brits , and first launched of Carriers by Brits. They Proved that the corsair could not compete with the German Aircraft. "
What the Brits proved is they didnt know how to fly Corsairs :D
Gainsie
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If you think taking 2 less guns in the Jug is gonna help you any, you're already doing something wrong...
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Because I want to log in and fly what I want, when I want. The P-47 is my ride of choice, however I do fly other AC. All the P-47's in our planeset were introduced into theatre 1944 or later.
I am a full time father, husband, USAF member, and college student. I dont have alot of time to spare.
Oh. ok. I didn't see that side of the discussion, before. Thanks.
shubie
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damn this thread is long!
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What about the Ki-44 Shoki? If it were introduced, would it match the P-47 and Corsair in terms of speed and altitude?
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Originally posted by Steve
A well flown 47 is one of the toughest planes to shoot down, IMHO. I'd love to learn the evasives those guys use...Fantastic flops and barrel rolls. If I get someone to teach me, I'll fly that thing full time!
I don't use evasives in a P-47 other than the deflection-shot dodge. You know the one - the LA7 or SpitIX dweeb is climbing up to you, so you show him your wing tip to lure him closer ("Here dweeby, dweeby, dweeby.") and go into a climbing turn so he'll pull on his stick and bleed more energy. Then, as he finally reaches up to you and starts to wallow from his lack of speed, you pop a notch of flaps, go into a nose-low turn, and cap his plane with eight .50cals chattering away. I've tried the same maneuver in a P-51B with mixed results. It works better in a -47. The worst that's happened to me in a P-47-D30 is I'll lose a gun if the guy actually manages to land a shot or two into my wing. Even so, seven .50cals are sufficient to get the job done. :p
Everything else is pretty much the same as the -51, except the -47 has a better chance of surviving the HO merge.
And my MudFlapGirl-gunsightv3 really helps my aiming in the -47.
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Originally posted by RightF00T
If you think taking 2 less guns in the Jug is gonna help you any, you're already doing something wrong...
I agree. I always carry all the guns, with max rounds per gun. If I want to do any weight adjusting, I'll do it with fuel load-out.
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I read somwehere that Republic had already destroyed all the tooling for the plane so they couldn't supply parts. The P-51 was used instead even though it was not as good a fighter bomber.
-Blogs
Originally posted by davidpt40
Heres a kind of strange question- Why didn't the Air Force use F4Us and P47s instead of the A1D skyraiders in Vietnam?
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A Composite of Numbers for the P-47 Thunderbolt in WWII
Year 1942
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Delivered 1 - - 5 10 26 38 61 67 66 116 142
Planes on hand 1 1 1 3 3 5 30 59 177 226 326 442
Planes overseas - - - - - - - - - - 30 104
Difference 1 1 1 1 1 5 30 59 177 226 296 338
In Europe - - - - - - - - - - - 88
Year 1943
Delivered 170 151 232 244 307 307 382 434 496 496 549 660
Planes on hand 378 528 678 913 1118 1272 1716 1975 2381 2796 3235 3765
Planes overseas 187 199 235 325 307 478 653 951 1197 1543 1910 2147
Difference 189 329 443 588 811 794 1063 1024 1184 1253 1325 1618
In Eurpoe 120 176 203 263 307 341 421 653 811 1005 1261 1215
Pac. Island Hopping - - - 250 - 59 114 107 149 235 367 391
In Med. Theater - - - - - - - - - 79 119 299
Far East - - - - - - - - - 60 74 83
Year 1944
Delivered 651 633 648 623 601 600 600 600 594 494 377 644
Planes on hand 4349 4687 5041 5297 5446 5317 5483 5375 5413 5353 5047 5100
Planes overseas 2646 2989 3451 3665 4033 3878 4050 3982 3889 3961 3702 3454
Difference 1703 1698 1590 1632 1413 1439 1433 1393 1524 1392 1345 1646
In Europe 1348 1630 1920 1985 1870 1632 1706 1768 1840 1942 1890 1735
Pac. Island Hopping 522 534 741 941 1043 1133 1116 1129 1089 1020 961 865
In Med Theater 348 379 368 350 371 544 649 697 618 535 545 509
Far East 97 111 178 224 235 265 254 236 232 240 236 211
Year 1945
Delivered 480 544 539 591 528 415 305 157
Planes on hand 5011 5133 5306 5346 5595 5595 5408 5308
Planes overseas 3329 3318 3628 3621 3696 3521 3372 3111
Difference 1682 1815 1678 1725 1899 2074 2036 2197
In Europe 1735 1959 1931 2053 2012 1942 1789 1749
Pac. island Hopping 811 757 887 932 1047 1094 1226 1329
In Med. Theater 550 360 352 298 280 241 40 -
Far East 205 181 330 428 562 553 40 19
Notes:
Delivered is the number of planes the USAAF accepted
On hand is the number of planes USAAF has in total.
Overseas is number that have been shipped out.
Difference is the estimated number of planes still in USA or in transit.
4 theaters are described by USAAF record plus the 20th AF.
The 20th AF numbers in individual plane types is neglible to the total numbers.Not forgotten.
Notes on other Planes.
P-40 in Europe. USAAF reports 15 on hand in Feb. and March of 1943. USAAF had no others in Europe at any time.
P-40 was in Med. to Aug 44, in Pac. Far East, Burma and China through Aug 45
Production of P-40 stopped in Nov 1944.
P-38 does not appear in China and Burma until Jul 43
P-51 numbers in Europe did not exceed P-47 until after Aug 1945.
P-51 Numbers on hand did not exceed P-47 until May 1945.
RE deliveries by Year 1941-1, 1942-516, 1943-3026, 1944-3901, 1945-1562 =9006 total
RA deliveries by year 1942-10, 1943-1131, 1944-3078, 1945-1997=6225 total
Curtis made 324 trainers.
P-38 was most expensive, P-47 then P-51 least expensive to USAAF of the 3
First OFFICIAL USAAF sorties in ETO was Aug42,Med-May42
Info From AFHRA: http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/
Wordpad document and does not fit in here well. Will email better copy if needed
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William M. Wheeler
Tuskegee Airman
332nd Fighter Group
302nd Fighter Squadron
Lo and behold, along came the Jug! Weighing in at 14,000 lbs., stripped, it outweighed the Warhawk by 3700 lbs., stood 4 feet taller and was faster by more than 100 MPH! What a monstrous fighter! I was assigned to the Jug at Walterboro Army Air Base, Walterboro, South Carolina, where I took advanced combat training. I adapted very quickly to this giant with its "built like a brick (out)-house" fuselage; massive, seemingly impervious construction; ultra-wide landing gear; and its huge Pratt & Whitney radial engine, which could generate 2525 "horses", twice that of my erstwhile love, the beautiful, suave P-40.
That plane took off with so much power and torque, I had to practically stand on the rudder to hold it straight. However, once in the air, it was smooth and responsive and provided so much stability and confidence that I felt invincible and challenged every plane I saw near me. I especially sought out the Vought-Corsairs flown by the marines stationed at nearby Parris Island. They could out-turn me -- but I could outmaneuver THEM. That's where I really learned combat tactics!
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Originally posted by Stegahorse
Year 1944
Delivered 651 633 648 623 601 600 600 600 594 494 377 644
Just curious, do you know offhand why there was such a sharp production drop in October and November?
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Stegahorse,
Would you like me to post ten stories that say the opposite of what you posted?
That's why they call those stories annecdotes not facts.
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The was was going so well in fall 1944 that "I'll be home for Christmas " ws more than a dream. They really believed that the war in Europe was one. The Battle of the Bulge was a rude wake up call.
The F4u was for all intent the same plane as the p-47. Both weighed in their normal combat weights about the same. The R-2800-10 in the Corsair had a normal out put of 1680 hp and 2000 wep, the P-47 D-25 had a normal output of 2000 hp and 2300 wep. The below the fuselage swept wings gave the corsair a higher instantaneous initial turn rate, but made it very unstable at slow speeds. While The turn rate on the p-47 was less that the corsairs, the roll rate was greater than any of any US aircraft and /or european. Pilots of neither plane were taught to turn fight yet the Corsair IS represented as a turnfighter.
Anyone who has experience with Turbo chargers or Superchargers can tell you that in Combat theaters, neither was set to factory settings. The were all tweaked as far as the cheif mechanic would dare. Republic took 2 R-2800 C type engines, place them on test stands and tweaked them to the max. they output 3600 hp and ran for 250 hours. Republic had a Major campain throughout WWII to have the P-47 regarded as the best. You don't suppose that the results of those tests would have been kept secret ? What is advertised is what Republic would Warranty to the US Military, not the whole truth.
Even 51 pilots concede that the 47 was a better high alt fighter, what makes Corsair pilots think they are better? The Corsair was cinsidered out classed at high alt in Europe, by the British.
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Originally posted by Engine
Just curious, do you know offhand why there was such a sharp production drop in October and November?
Probably tooling up for the N model.
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Originally posted by joeblogs
I read somwehere that Republic had already destroyed all the tooling for the plane so they couldn't supply parts. The P-51 was used instead even though it was not as good a fighter bomber.
-Blogs
There were hundreds of P-47s (mostly Ns) in service with Air Guard units in 1950. No one in the Military has yet to state why they were not deployed to Korea. Most Air Guard units flying P-51Ds received deployment orders within weeks of the N. Korean invasion.
Personally, I'm convinced this was the result of the "Mustang Mafia" being in command at the time. As a ground attack and close support aircraft, the P-47N was superior to the P-51, not only in lifting ability, but in reliability and range. Yeah, the P-47N had a greater combat radius than the P-51D by about 100 miles.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
As a ground attack and close support aircraft, the P-47N was superior to the P-51, not only in lifting ability, but in reliability and range. Yeah, the P-47N had a greater combat radius than the P-51D by about 100 miles.
My regards,
Widewing
Not only that, but the P-47 is just classier, and much better looking..and I am NOT bias.
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The P-47 N was not chosen because:
There just were not enough of them left in the USAF and
Most of the pilots that went to korea like the 51 better until they realized that the prop planes were doing ground support
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P-47N was designed to escort the B-36's wasn't it?
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Originally posted by frank3
P-47N was designed to escort the B-36's wasn't it?
The first flight of the XB-36 took place Aug. 8 1946. A wee bit late for a escort P-47N. The P-47N could not have escorted the B-36 to its target, just like the P-47D could not escort the B-17/B-24s to most targets in Europe - lack of range.
The long ranges (at the time) in the Pacific were what the P-47N was designed for.
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Stegahorse,
Are you making this stuff up or did you really read that somewhere?
The P-47 had a very average roll rate compared to most contemporary fighters with the N as a possible exception. However I have never seen roll data on the N.
As far as the F4U being a stall fighter it wasn't in comparison with Japanese A/C. But compared to American Fighters it turned very well, inside the P-47 with ease as well as the P-51. The F4U had a stall speed roughly 20MPH below the P-47.
BTW, I have the British AFDU report on the F4U and F6F. I don't remember reading anywhere about being out classed in Europe.
Have you ever read the reports testing the F4U-1 vrs the FW190A5 or P-51B?
Also your HP ratings are way off.
The F4U-1 used the PWR2800-8 or 8W with water injection.
That engine put out 2,000HP at sea level with no water and 2,150HP in the early -1A and 2250HP in later F4U-1A/1D.
The P-47 with no water also put out 2,000HP and anywhere from 2300HP to 2600HP in later than the D27 model.
Even with that a 14500LB P-47D30 with 2600HP still has poor power loading compared to the F4U-1D at 2250HP.
P-47D-30
14,500LBS/2600HP= 5.57
F4U-1D
12,175LBS/2250HP= 5.41
Wingloading for turning is even worse for the P-47
P-47
14500LBS/300SQFT=48.33
F4U-1D
12,175LBS/314SQFT= 38.77
Hence the very high stall of the P-47.
Take a look here.
F4U/F6F vrs FW190 (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index1.html)
P-51B vrs F4U-1 (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index2.html)
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I stand corrected. I have no idea why someone would take a P51 for a ground attack roll when a P-47 is available.
-Blogs
Originally posted by Widewing
There were hundreds of P-47s (mostly Ns) in service with Air Guard units in 1950. No one in the Military has yet to state why they were not deployed to Korea. Most Air Guard units flying P-51Ds received deployment orders within weeks of the N. Korean invasion.
Personally, I'm convinced this was the result of the "Mustang Mafia" being in command at the time. As a ground attack and close support aircraft, the P-47N was superior to the P-51, not only in lifting ability, but in reliability and range. Yeah, the P-47N had a greater combat radius than the P-51D by about 100 miles.
My regards,
Widewing
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I've dug through the Arcives, sifted official USAAF/USAF documents both in National archives and USAF history archives. Here are the results:
P47-total built
B----170 none left USA
C----602 a few went Europe
D--11,543 in total
D-11---750
D-25---383 Actual built
D-25,26,27,28-3120 grouped as D-25
D-30---2000
D-40---1285
G------354 Curtis built trainers
M------1025
N------1800 and about 300 after VJ
B+C+D+G+M+N=15,500 and USAAF reports
recieving 15,585. Therefore these numbers
are in line.
D-25 becomes a low numbered variant. I added the ones from 25 to 28 because they were likely called D-25.
Maybe that 170 Ms went to Europe, they appeared in Euro in Jan'45 and On the line by Feb '45
The rest went to Pacific, but I have no info as to their delivery.
Could be most were swept off the carriers before delivery.
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Euro P-47M's were flown solely by the 56th FG in 44-45. I forget the site at hand but somewhere in the books its also listed.
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Yes, 355th fighter Group, 354th, 357th, and 358th squads.
The oddity is that HTC won't allow low production variants and the D-25 technically is one of them.:p
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Stega said-
Yes, 355th fighter Group, 354th, 357th, and 358th squads.
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I am 99% positive that you are mistaken about the P-47M in action. The ONLY unit that I know of that flew the P-47M in combat were the three squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group, 61st, 62cd, and the 63rd Fighter Squadrons.