Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zigrat on October 23, 2000, 09:54:00 AM
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When the wirblewind(sp) was much more common and would solve MANY of the gameplay issues with the ostwind.
4 20 mm cannon -- STILL a very pwerful A-A armorment, more than enough to protect armored columns
20MM cannon would limit it to AA and not anti armor attacks
was produced in relatively large #s compared to ostwind
so why the hell was ostwind put in?
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so why the hell was ostwind put in?
To give the Chog drivers something to do when their aircraft are being serviced? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Actually I would prefer a wirblewind, since it is very difficult to hit anything in the Ostwind that is not flying directly towards you.
Its x4 guns, with its much higher rate of fire 20mm's would make hitting an enemy aircraft much like it is in the M16, fairly easy, and the x4 20mm would effectively be even more deadly, than the single 37mm.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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exactly verm
it would be as potent or MORE potent then the ostwind but would require panzers to protect it from enbemy panzwers or it would be toast
would have been much more balanced
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I'm not really sure but I suspect that the 20mm cannons on the Wirbelwind were MG FF or MG 151 cannons. Well, if so, then I don't see how it could be even close to Ostwind or the M16 in what comes to AA capability.
You can hit planes in the ostwind at 1500 yards (though probably only if they are moving your way) and with M16 you can hit planes to 1000 yards. The Wirbelwind could efficiently hit and harm planes up to 600 yards or so, probably.
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SageFIN
"The wolves are gathering, the stars are shifting...
come, join us in the hunt!"
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SageFin, they were neither the MGFF or the MG151. The Wirbelwind used the Flak 36 20mm, a dedicated AAA gun.
Here is a link to an informative site on the Ostwind and Wirbelwind.
http://home.inreach.com/rickylaw/heer/flakpanzer/wwind/wwindtka.html (http://home.inreach.com/rickylaw/heer/flakpanzer/wwind/wwindtka.html)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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The wirbelwind works for me. I think the osty is too much for the game balance. It is far more useful as a tank killer than an AAA gun.
Mav
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I dunno about that Maverick. I've yet to see a fighter survive a hit from the Ostwind. But I've seen plenty of tanks that were impervious to Ostwind fire. If you hit the soft spot on the front lower hull they die quick though.
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Well I for one consider the Ostwind play balance for the oversexed F4U-C (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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If the Ostwind was difficult to kill I would say get rid of it but it's not so I won't.
A good tanker can kill an Ostwind before it get's into range to defend itself and a good AC pilot can kill 1 normally in 1 pass.
So what is the fuss? Is it because it can defend itself or that it can take out a base by itself?
These are not good enough reasons to remove it OR dummy it down IMHO.
The Ostwind made GV more of a threat and gave GV a chance they never had before.
It used to be it would take you 1/2 hour to drive to a base and if an AC saw you you were dead. No way of defending yourself. Now you can drive 1/2 hour to a base and even if you are seen you still have a chance of making it.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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You know what, when they introduced the flakpanzer It seemed so obvious to me that HTC would have chosen the Wirbelwind that I kept calling ostwind "wirbelwind" for a couple of days until I realized that ohmygod they had modelized an almost unknown vehicle. I agree with you all.
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Question was posted by Sparks in A/C and Vehicles BBS:
Just saw "Tanks" program on Discovery - reviewed the usage of Panzer chassis and dealt with AA versions. It said there were 3 variants - first one I forget name of but it had drop down armour plate sides so was no use. Second one was .... well it meant Whirlwind and had 4 cannon I think - was much better and many produced. Last was Ostwind which with big gun was much better but only 43 built. IS THAT RIGHT ?? there were only 43 built ????? If so - why do we have it here ?? - just my thoughts......[/i]
And answered by Pyro: Because a Mobelwagen would have been harder to model and with no defense. The Ostwind in AH has to cover that whole class of vehicles. Be glad we didn't model an M19.[/i]
So, deal with it. Man, you guys whining this much about uber this uber that, you're gonna HATE WW2 Online! (Or love it if your a habitual whiner, depends on your point of view)
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Not all that many Wirblewinds were produced either, fewer than 100. The Germans had lots of mobile light ack along the lines of the M-16, we should have one of those instead of the Osty 'Hog-C on tracks'.
ra
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In a b17 yesterday night, a Osty pinged me when I was at 9K alt. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I was impressed.
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the Mobelwagon and Whirlwind were pretty different.
The Mobelwagon was on an IV chassy, and had an armored "box" that had to be lowered in ordered to engage aircraft, leaving the Mobelwagon crew with no defense. The armor was to protect against ground threats (and it could not fire horizontally with the armor up)
The Whirlwind was an improved version with a small gunshield that housed all 4 20mm, shaped much like the larger Ostwind's turrent, and could fire one a whim without having to prepare. It was much smaller in comparison as well.
The Whirlwind has been done before too. Air Warrior had it. Purely speculation, but I assume that HTC creations wanted to try something new.
None of the armored flaks were produced in great numbers (The US M-19 and Russian GAZ's are a different matter though)
There were alot of SPW flak half-tracks and Pz38 flak conversions. But they only mounted a single 20mm flak gun.
- Jig
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For the life of me, I've not been able to find a picture of an M-19. Could you imagine TWO 40mm guns on one chassis? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/m19.gif)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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That illustration is clearly overmodeled. (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/rcain.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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hmmmm...
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that picture is cool looking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
would be cool as a perk!
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Pyro, what book is that out of? Is there a web site that has more info on that vehicle? It looks very interesting.
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Hedu, JG26, Warbirds and beyond.
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Hi
Basically the ostwind is a fine addition to the game. However something must be done to stop its use as a main force weapon in the ground war. Panzers are now escorts to the ostis just in case a tank comes up to defend. If the vh is down at an A base thats being attacked, you wont see a panzer approaching it, just half a dozen ostis as happend yesterday at A6. Second most of the problems also stem from the fact that the spawn points are so close to the A bases. this way the often impatient ostidweeb type doesn't have to be botherd in taking a long trip or, god forbid, have to climb a hill at 5mph to get into the action. If you look at the gameplay/feedback room there is a string where the wonderful and innocent ostidweeb faction started complaining that their runway vulching was being interupted by evil and very wrong spawn point vulching. So I think the solution to the current ostwind problem should look into increasing ostwind vulnerability-especially turret/guncrew issues, reducing its ability to destroy strat targets and panzers(the ostwind's ammo load is apparently at least equal to 24,000 pounds of bombs) ,panzers should be used to kill strat targets and airfields, and finally the spawn points should be moved back far enough to double travel time to A bases. This way they have to work a bit to get to field and if they are killed they have to take a longer time getting back. Thus there will be fewer ostiswarm attacks and their magic little spawn points won't be vulched by those evil, mean and nasty folks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Big problem with the Ost is its protection. Still too much. It would need 150mm of turrent armour to be as safe from panzers as it is. It had 25mm. A panzer can kill its turrent at beyond the horrizon range. Here a turrent hit from a 75mmL48 will not kill at 50m. Address that issue and then reevaluate it.
And Mighty, any credible airdefence vehicle would do what you say. It dousnt have to be able to reduce a field and duke it out with panzers.
The fact that something more dangorous exists doenst change the fact that the ost is the most signifigant single object in the game. I guess we should be glad its not a flak panzer gepard.....
If someone works out a good reticle for this thing(some have I think) it will complete its horrible work and the game will cease to be even interesting.
The freindly con mission proved it. 60 ft guys with autocannon pizza and beer arms were no match for the ostwind. Not even close.
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I've got a question...
How come ostwinds aren't vulnerable to strait down attacks by ANY caliber of ammo? It's got an open top, so unless he has his gun trained directly on you (which means he has some armor protecting his face, i think) , if you strafed the top of the turret with machine gun fire, you'd almost certainly nail the human gunner, wouldn't ya?
Is my thinking flawed somehow? Or maybe this is already the case, and I just don't aim that good? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I do know you can pop those 'lil bastards with a properly placed 250 from a nik (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SOB
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Cheesuz, that thing looks vicious. That picture makes a fine exclamtion point to your prior post Pyro about modeling an Ostwind and not an M19. Thank you for the scan! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-23-2000).]
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Yes.. spawn points and bases really are too close.
If you see vehicle come up to a spawn point near field, you barely get to the edge of your field from the VH (if its threat from A3 to A6), when you can already start shooting at the tank.
Though, Ostwinds turrets are easier to pick now, but sometimes those turrets doesn't seem to go off at all, no matter how much you'll waste hispano or m2 rounds.
..but then again, some spray & pray guy can get turret from ostwind at 800 yards in a german plane.
Sob,
I tested that with 7.92mm guns from straight above and nearly almost rammed the Ostwind while shooting into its turret - turret was still up. (and this was testing in h2h..)
Another interesting test result is that M3 Halftracks doesn't suffer from top attacks anymore either than Ostwind!
Or would they suffer of 7.92mm, which against they were still vulnerable.
So.. if complains of open turret of Ostwind, go complain about halftracks also.
Halftracks should be able to be blown up by 7.92mm machinegun, after a few hits. (needs about 400 or more hits to get even wheel off.. and you can't even harm its open gun)
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The picture is just a scan from the technical manual.
The turret should be easy to take out if you can get your bullets angled down into it. Unfortunately, we haven't got anything in there at the moment to give you any indication that you've done so. There's also some things happening in vehicle damage that we can't yet account for and are still looking at.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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The ostwind looks fine to me but some of the spawn points ARE a little to close.
I can't remember which bases they are but they seem to be going to an Abase. I think most of the spawn points going to a Vbase are ok.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"