Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GrimCO on May 03, 2003, 09:46:15 AM
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As an avid amateur astronomer/physics geek, Einstein has always been one of my heroes. I found this article interesting. Pretty funny how the human mind works sometimes...
Anyway, here's the link for any of you who are interested in such things...
http://home.att.net/~ascaris1/genius.html
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neato
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I must be a low-functioning autistic. I spend all my time thinking about women's boobs.
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That is a very interesting article. It has given me a lot to think about, as it describes me to a T (except for being as smart as Einstein). We have been trying to diagnose my disorder for years; it never occurred to us that I could be autistic.
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Originally posted by Makofan
That is a very interesting article. It has given me a lot to think about, as it describes me to a T (except for being as smart as Einstein). We have been trying to diagnose my disorder for years; it never occurred to us that I could be autistic.
Makofan,
Maybe you could talk to a doctor who specializes in that area, or even contact the person that wrote that article. I know nothing about autism in particular, I just stumbled across the article while reading about Einstein. I know it would be quite a relief to finally find out what's been troubling you all these years. Best of luck to you.
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Hmm... While not knowing much at all about the subject, Makofan, (nor your situation)... I thought you might want to look into what's called Asperger's Syndrome. It's considered the cousin of autism... The reason I mention it is that this all reminded me of an absolutely mind-blowing article I read in Harper's magazine last year.
And.... cool... I found it posted on the net. If you (or anyone) has the time, I highly recommend giving this a read. An incredible story...
The boy who loved transit: how the system failed an obsession. (http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1111/1824_304/85882845/p1/article.jhtml?term=subway)
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Originally posted by Nash
Hmm... While not knowing much at all about the subject, Makofan, (nor your situation)... I thought you might want to look into what's called Asperger's Syndrome. It's considered the cousin of autism... The reason I mention it is that this all reminded me of an absolutely mind-blowing article I read in Harper's magazine last year.
Nash good point. I believe they were saying that Einstein had this very form of autism. Asperger's that is...
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I read up on Asperger's after reading that article.
All I can say is..WOW.
Its amazing thats almost exactly what I have.
When I was very young (3-4yrs) my parents and even some doctors thought I was autistic since I didnt talk or socialize with nobody. Then they bought me a dog and I couldnt shut my yap talking to the dog (apparently I started talking 'socializing' a few months after we got the dog).
One of the thing that I can't get into or handle is small talk. This has led me into having less than 3 friends throught my entire life. Put me a subject and i can talk your ear off, but start a conversation about irrelevant crap like the weather or what I did yesterday, or about the color of a t-shirt the girl across the street has... I mean, WTF?)
I dont, however, obsess over things (heck im uberdisorganized, careless and carefree. Just dont fuk with my DSL connection ;) )
Heck, just look at this passage :
"Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see. It's important to remember that the person with AS perceives the world very differently. Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior, and most certainly not the result of "improper parenting".
By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context."
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/
All the above literally applies to ME except the 'They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest.' part.
unbelievable. !
Thanks for the link!
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No problem OIO,
I just originally posted the link because I'm an avid reader about Einstein and his theories.
Glad it wound up helping a couple of people! I guess I'm good for something after all! LOL
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There are, of course, many other reasons to exhibit this behaviour besides having Autism (sp).
A couple of other possiblities are simply being anti-social and/or less than well adjusted (read maladjusted), drug use (especially Marijuana), etc
btw Grim, great story!
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
There are, of course, many other reasons to exhibit this behaviour besides having Autism (sp).
A couple of other possiblities are simply being anti-social and/or less than well adjusted (read maladjusted), drug use (especially Marijuana), etc
Don't forget a child could have been dropped on his head too. Geez...
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My son Daniel was diagnosed with AS. The description above fits him to a tee. He has an IQ approaching 130, but can't read another person's face or body language with a 9-meter telescope. Very frustrating to us as parents, but we love him just the same. He's 14 now and stuggling to try to prepare for re-entry into public school. My wife and I have to constantly remind ourselves that Dan is "wired" different.
Sabre
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Don't forget a child could have been dropped on his head too. Geez...
now you're describing me !
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Hey there Sabre,
I can't really imagine how I'd deal with that myself. Your son has the IQ of a genius. Do you let him go his own way? Or do you try to treat the social disorder part of it and take a chance of hampering something he might accomplish in the future.
Tough decisions...
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This may be a stupid suggestion/question, but has he ever had a dog?
BTW, my name is Daniel too.
Coolest name ever!
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This article is plain silly.
1. Autism is defined in the article as a character trait that inhibits interaction with other people.
Even assuming autism is treatable - I don't know if it is, why would improvement in ability to communicate with people reduce abilities in other areas? Why would Einstein become less smart if he was more of a people's person?
True, if he spent more time with people, he could have possibly spent less time on research. But for smart people the amount of time spent on a problem is not directly related to the outcome - that is discounting the fact that 99% of thinking is done subconsiously. One does not steadily advance to discovery by thinking about it "repetitively (or even obsessively)". One just thinks about it whenever he feels like it and then at some moment - even while the person is asleep - he gets a revelation.
If anything, talking to other scientists more may help a scientist to put his thoughts in order.
Also, the brain often works in such way that a person cannot make much progress being obsessed with a problem but once a distraction is provided - in the form of human contact or otherwise, the progress may occur rapidly.
Basically, there is no merit to the idea that Einstein would have been less smart if his alleged autism were cured. He could have chosen a different career path but by the same token some people could have chosen a life of science if they were not autistic.
There were plenty of geniuses with great personalities which had no problem dealing with people. Outstanding physicists, chess players, etc. are known for their sense of humor and the books with antologies of their jokes are great read.
2. What would have become of him if his parents had recognized the signs and sought intervention? How much of his greatness may have been jeopardized?
Even if curing him of autism would somehow make him less of a genius and deprive him of scientific "greatness", why does the author think he would have been less happy with his life? If I remember correctly, he did not have any children of his own while he produced valuable things for the benefit of others.
Does greatness of being a genius compensate for misery of dying childless? Maybe yes, maybe no - even Einstein does not know the answer, not being able to try each life. Certainly not the author of that silly article.
Would I agree to become the next Einstein and also cure all ills of this world in exchange for losing my son and not having more children? Not a chance.
One thing that is often confused with autism in very smart people is inability to tolerate or find common interests with dumb people. So he did not like to chat with his neighbours or even relatives, prefering to go to the office any chance he got. That does not mean he was working there all the time - maybe just talking and playing cards with other geniuses.
I am quite a people's person myself but during my military service I used to be known as antisicial. I am not a genius, but 30 point gap in IQ reduces desire fro human company quiote a lot.
miko
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Miko,
Einstein was VERY obsessive about his work. I've read books written by the man himself. He had no other scientists to talk to about his theories because they thought he was a lunatic. Time slowing down? Gravity not being an attractive force between objects? Space being bent? It was ludicrous at the time, and shook the very foundations of science when his theories were proven true. You've got to remember that this man absolutely stunk at mathematics and came up with his theories on pure thought alone. He had to have a mathmetician work out the equations, and only learned the math of his own theories later in life.
I have no argument with you about whether "curing" his autism and anti-social behavior would have been beneficial to him personally or not. I cannot come up with a good answer for that one. But I do believe had they messed with his psyche, his theories would not have come into being.
Would that have been better for him personally? Possibly so.
I just don't know.
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What? I thought Einstien was Mark Twain?
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GrimCO: Einstein was VERY obsessive about his work. I've read books written by the man himself. He had no other scientists to talk to about his theories because they thought he was a lunatic.
I read his books too. He never said he immersed himself into his work in order to avoid dealing with people - at least I do not remember getting that impression.
He was also quite interested in the issues of humanity, loved being with children, appreciated a good joke, etc.
But I do believe had they messed with his psyche, his theories would not have come into being.
Never fear. Someone else's would have come up with them within a few years. What Einstein started with on the road to special relativity was solving well-known problem of Lorenz Transformations prompted in turn by Michelson experiment.
At worst, the development of technology improved accuracy of devices so much that the relativistic effects would have been discovered soon and explanations sought - like the sum of the angles of a triangle not quite equal up to 180 or precession of Mercury's orbit.
miko
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Explanations are still sought to this day...
If space is curved by the mass of objects, what actually is being curved and what is space composed of? The ether? Still no explanation.
Would another scientist have come up with the same theory as Einstein because there were discrepencies discovered related to unknown relativistic causes? Possibly, but not probably.
We experience many phenomenon to this day that are unexplained by quantum mechanics and physics. Something is missing, and my money is on a radical thinker rather than an equation expert figuring it out.
Einstein was a lone soldier of thinking during his time, and it was this very quality that allowed him to theorize on relativity. I'm not so certain someone else would have "figured it out" within a few years without sharing the thought processes of a brain that was wired wrong.
I'm guessing membrane theory is on the right track. The right "crazy" guy just hasn't come along yet to figure it all out.
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Very interesting stuff Grim.
I was a science teacher at an experimental school for the developmentally disabled. Very hippyish back in the 70's, but we thought everyone needed to learn about heir environment / world / universe etc. I was asked to develop a science program for adults that ranged from 1st grade level to Jr. College.
One of my students was a savant. She would ask you your birthdate, and immediately tell you how old you were to the day, as well as the day of the week you were born, but she couldn't add 3 + 3 without using her fingers.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Very interesting stuff Grim.
I was a science teacher at an experimental school for the developmentally disabled. Very hippyish back in the 70's, but we thought everyone needed to learn about heir environment / world / universe etc. I was asked to develop a science program for adults that ranged from 1st grade level to Jr. College.
One of my students was a savant. She would ask you your birthdate, and immediately tell you how old you were to the day, as well as the day of the week you were born, but she couldn't add 3 + 3 without using her fingers.
First of all, a big to you for teaching. I think that is the most admirable profession in the entire world. If I had the opportunity to go back and do it all over again knowing what I know now, that is the career I would have chosen.
It's just amazing to me that with all the modern technology we have these days, we can't figure out how the human mind works. It is truly an amazing computer with a "mind" of it's own.
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Originally posted by GrimCO
Explanations are still sought to this day...
The right "crazy" guy just hasn't come along yet to figure it all out.
I understand it all completely... I just can't figure out how to explain it to anyone else....dammit
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I understand it all completely... I just can't figure out how to explain it to anyone else....dammit
LOL Holden,
Frustrating isn't it!
BTW, any relation to Phil McKraken?
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the genius to crazy is a hazy gray zone.......
some say ya got to be crazy to be a genius:D
some of the most prolific serial killers where actually considered very smart fellows.....
Einstien was a genius.....but his form of genius was thinking.....not everyday life.....ask his wife....only at the end of his days did he start taken care of his family.....in that spectrum...he sucked.....depends on your perspective :D
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GrimCO: Explanations are still sought to this day...
If space is curved by the mass of objects, what actually is being curved and what is space composed of?
Often right questions are theoretically proven to have no answers. But when you ask the wrong questions to start with, you are certain not to get any meaningfull answers.
The categories - and words in human languages - like space, time, "object", matter, "composed", etc. are inherent to human mind. They - language and concepts - evolved spontaneously as a result of darwinian and memetic selection in such way that allowed the certain breed of apes to survive and prosper.
In order to do so, those concepts must have somewhat matched the reality those apes inhabited - the reality of sense qualities.
At the same time there was no reason to believe that those concepts have any meaning when it comes to the real nature of the world. They are dealing with "world" way beyong that affecting evolution if primates, so they have to come up with radically new concepts.
Scientists often draw some analogies for popular representation of science - like comparing vacuum with emptyness or electron with a ball flying circles around the nucleus or time with distance, or interaction with movement, etc. That does not mean things are really like that and that scientists think like that doing their research.
In many cases they can find no possible analogy to be expressed in the human mind terms and all we have are systems of equations.
midnight Target: One of my students was a savant. She would ask you your birthdate, and immediately tell you how old you were to the day, as well as the day of the week you were born, but she couldn't add 3 + 3 without using her fingers.
The case of so called "idiot-savants" is really one of mental deficiency that gives affected people access to certain abilities at the expense of the higher-level abilities - unlike autism which is a lack of some abilities irrelevant to the function of other.
The miraculous things that savants do - intricate calculations, memorisation and reproduction of images, memory retrieval, etc. - we all have that. Our brains are extremely sophisticated computing devices that work 99.9999% of the time without us noticing.
There was good reason why we evolved in such way that we do not have concious access to those resources. In some people that layer of concious control is broken.
They can draw a picture like the best camera - not in a way a human would do it from general outline through detalisation, but like a mechanical prolling device - or compute something quick because they have short-circuit from conciousness into the relevant brain structure. But they have trouble ordering the other parts of their brain around.
GrimCO: It's just amazing to me that with all the modern technology we have these days, we can't figure out how the human mind works. It is truly an amazing computer with a "mind" of it's own.
According to some theoretical considerations, the problem of human mind understanding it's own operation is unsolveable. In the very least, it would involve a paradox of having to know more than one knows at any given moment.
Another one is that our concious thinking is just a miniscule fraction of our mind's though process.
We can understand some basic principles of mind's operation. We could conceivably write some detailed explanations of human mind working that would be model of that mind on paper and even allow to reproduce it in a computer. Even map every atom or cell, etc. But a human mind still would not be able to comprehend that as a whole.
miko
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lol grim.....so many question so few answers.
1st - de brain.....actually we do now how it works.....the real question that doc's don't know is how does the SUB-CONCIOUS work.
2- time is relative(dependin on distance)......space is composed of Helium(why are sun is big)....Hydrogen(fuel for our sun).....and many more kinds of Atoms.....some are even anti-matter.....when they say space is curved....its not actually curved...its the objects(planets...stars) gravitational pull that curves it.....
3rd an autistic playin chopin on the piano.....mozart playin piano at the age of 5.....freak of nature.....or natures way of sayin...figure that one out:D
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They understand a few of the basics concerning how the brain works. To say they understand how it works is stretching it.
Something to ponder when you're drunk/stoned/nothing better to do: How does the brain store music? Is it more like a wav or a midi file?
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Originally posted by OIO
This may be a stupid suggestion/question, but has he ever had a dog?
BTW, my name is Daniel too.
Coolest name ever!
Actually, we've got two dogs;), and I agree with you on the name. As for your more basic question, we're trying to address both. We want Dan to realize his full potential, but we don't want him to be a recluse either. All we can do is the best we can; the rest we leave in God's hands.
Our own (my wife and I's) frustration is nothing compared to what our son must deal with. One might argue that that frustration itself could be an inhibition to him reaching that full potential. Had Einstein understood early on what made him different, and developed a bit more social skill to deal with it, what heights might he have attained? Is it possible he could have won over more of his collegues earlier in his career, when the energizing effect of group enthusiam and synergy of great minds working together, rather than in isolation, could have produced truly miraculaous breakthroughs? Who knows?
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Sabre: Had Einstein understood early on what made him different, and developed a bit more social skill to deal with it, what heights might he have attained?
Or he could have turned his life into sheer hell by trying to behave contrary to his nature rather than find a lifestyle that fit his nature.
We want Dan to realize his full potential, but we don't want him to be a recluse either. All we can do is the best we can; the rest we leave in God's hands.
Sabre, listen critically to those that would advise pushing your child further than he can go. He may be willing to do more for you and your wife that is good for him. God alone knows his "full potential", so if recluse is what he is, the optimal strategy may be equipping him to be the greatest and happiest recluse that ever lived.
Oh, yeah - you can never have too many dogs! :)
Good luck.
miko
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Thanks, Miko...we can use all the luck we can get. What you say about Albert E might be true. I was simply offering the other side of the coin, so to speak. I never meant to imply the he or anyone should be forced to become someone they're not. I only suggested that had he and his parents understood his condition more, it might have eased some of the load for him, and that might have actually helped him in the long run.
It is indeed a delicate balance we must strike as parents. What my wife and I try to do is encourage, rather than push. We show our belief and support for Dan, rather than try to bully or cajole him. We're not trying to turn him into "Mr. Congeniality," just help him to learn to deal with others more effectively, and to understand himself better. Interacting with others is a skill that can be developed, just like any other. I believe in the end that those skills will be useful and valuable to Dan, as they would have been to Albert E.
Respectfully,
Sabre
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Originally posted by miko2d
Often right questions are theoretically proven to have no answers. But when you ask the wrong questions to start with, you are certain not to get any meaningfull answers.
In many cases they can find no possible analogy to be expressed in the human mind terms and all we have are systems of equations.
I fully understand the concept of not being able to express something in terms the human mind can understand. All we know and can relate to can be expressed only in human terms or mathmatically. Try explaining colors to a person who was born blind...
At any rate, I feel that many of the things we experience are but symptoms of something else that is occuring outside of our realm of sight and comprehension.
A good example is a two dimensional creature. He would be bound to a flat surface, and could see around him, but would have absolutely no concept of what up or down is because from his experience, this extra dimension doesn't exist and he can't see it. If a box were above him, he would have absolutely no idea it was even there. If it dropped down and landed in front of him, it would appear to him that a straight line had materialized out of nowhere because he would only be able to see the bottom of the box that was resting in his dimension.
There is no possible way he could explain this because his mind is incapable of visualizing something it is unable to see. He would simply say "Hey, this line just appeared out of nowhere", and people would probably think he was a nut.
I feel that many of the things we see and experience are just portions of what is actually occuring. Any attempts to try to visualize them or explain them is beyond our grasp. We are three dimensional creatures, and are bound by these visible dimensions. The fourth dimension of time is hard enough to grasp as being changeable and malleable, let alone any dimensions that may exhist above that.
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Hey Grim... CNN has a story about an Einstein website that's going online in about a half hour (3pm EST) today. Just thought you'd be interested.
" 3,000 digitized images of the Nobel prize winner's writings, Einstein Papers''
"The site also will provide a catalog of the 40,000 pieces of writing and correspondence that make up the body of Einstein's work, much of it written in the scientist's own hand, Buchwald said. "
The website is: http://www.alberteinstein.info/
and the CNN story is: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/05/19/einstein.online.reut/index.html
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Originally posted by OIO
I read up on Asperger's after reading that article.
All I can say is..WOW.
Its amazing thats almost exactly what I have.
All the above literally applies to ME except the 'They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest.' part.
unbelievable. !
Thanks for the link!
Put on the handbrake there... I hardly think you have aspergers based on your description, and being interested in yourself is a very "un-asperger" thing to do. I don't think Einstein had any kind of autism either, at least not diagnosable. Most autist, aspergers included, fail to show creativity and spontanity. They may learn something very well or have inherit abilities, but they cannot use knowledge in a creative way. They are usually stuck within the "paradigm". Most people who have worked with or diagnosed aspergers or any other form of autism would find it unlikely. Aspergers is a disabling developemental disorder - it's hardly a label you can slap on yourself or others. Be careful!
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Im aware of that. Im a bit relieved to know that this has been studied. All the info ive read so far says AS can go from 'very mild' (perhaps me? dunno, seems to me it mostly fits) to 'severe'.
As always, its one thing to say "hey this matches me" and actually having it. So yes, i guess ill visit a doctor and bring this to his attention. Worst he can do is give me a saline shot in the left 'nad and send me home for wasting his time ;)
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Thanks Nash!
Appreciate the link sir!
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GrimCO: A good example is a two dimensional creature. He would be bound to a flat surface, and could see around him, but would have absolutely no concept of what up or down is because from his experience, this extra dimension doesn't exist and he can't see it...
There is no possible way he could explain this because his mind is incapable of visualizing something it is unable to see.
Quite a few people claim to have no problem with the fourth dimention. I've never heard them being tested (by, say, giving them three orthogonal projections of that hyper-figure into 3-dimentional space and asking to draw the fourth one), but I would not be surpised if that could be done.
Now, visualising the fractional dimention is another matter...
bigUC: Most autist, aspergers included, fail to show creativity and spontanity.
As do most people. It makes sense if autism is just the lack of certain empathic abilities that allows people to avoid "distractions" of human interactions but does not improve other abilities directly.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Quite a few people claim to have no problem with the fourth dimention. I've never heard them being tested (by, say, giving them three orthogonal projections of that hyper-figure into 3-dimentional space and asking to draw the fourth one), but I would not be surpised if that could be done.
Now, visualising the fractional dimention is another matter...
Well, drawing in 4 dimensions is impossible. But I do believe you can see, or at least imagine 4 dimensionally to a limited extent. I myself have no idea what a hypercube would look like, other than the shadow projections in 3 dimensions. However, I have been able to picture simple objects (such as a hand for example) in 4 dimensions. This is accomplished by being able to picture the entire hand (both sides) simultaneously. Sounds weird, but it can be done. You just sort of have to "let go" of the way you've always seen things with your eyes.
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GrimCO: Well, drawing in 4 dimensions is impossible.
Certainly. What I was talking about was not drawing the object but its projections on lower-order surfaces. It was a common exercise in drawing to have top and front projections of some 3-dimentional object or an intersection of objects and teh student is required to produce the view from the side.
There was a technique to it but after a while my visualisation became good enough that I could draw it freehand and then verify the correctness.
The projections of a 4-dimentional object on 3-dimantional space would be 3-dimantional objects and there are 4 orthogonal axes rather than 3. Like imagine an object that viewed from "above" is a cube, viewed from the "right" is a cone, viewed from the "front" is a cylinder and now draw what it would look like from z-axis.
However, I have been able to picture simple objects (such as a hand for example) in 4 dimensions. This is accomplished by being able to picture the entire hand (both sides) simultaneously. Sounds weird, but it can be done.
I am not sure that would do it. As long as you can visualise a path from one point on your "hand" to any other point that would be in 3 dimentions, the object is 3-dimentional.
How about another analogy. Two jigsaw puzzle pieces are locked in 2-dimentions and cannot be disengaged unless you shift one in the third dimention - to a great surprise of any 2-d creatures. Now imagine that your limks on a chain are really projections of 4-d objects and you can disengage them without breaking them by shifting them into the 4th dimension. That would be an interesting exercise.
I'll try to program myself to visualise that in my sleep. not much hope though.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
How about another analogy. Two jigsaw puzzle pieces are locked in 2-dimentions and cannot be disengaged unless you shift one in the third dimention - to a great surprise of any 2-d creatures. Now imagine that your limks on a chain are really projections of 4-d objects and you can disengage them without breaking them by shifting them into the 4th dimension. That would be an interesting exercise.
I'll try to program myself to visualise that in my sleep. not much hope though.
Thanks for the engaging comments Miko... Sure do appreciate them!
Another good anology of 4 dimensions is surgically removing an appendix without breaking the skin. It could be done as easily in the 4th dimension as we could pick up a stick.
Try visualizing your hand and seeing it in it's entirety, all sides included. Work on it long enough, and you'll see it :)
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matter...
bigUC: Most autist, aspergers included, fail to show creativity and spontanity.
As do most people. It makes sense if autism is just the lack of certain empathic abilities that allows people to avoid "distractions" of human interactions but does not improve other abilities directly.
miko [/B][/QUOTE]
Autism isn't about "special abilities". Most autist, Aspergers included, never show any special abilities. (75 % of all autists are moderately or severly mentally retarded.) When they in rare cases are present they are not "useful" in the strictest sence. They usually anmass information about a subject, replays pieces of music or draw photographic reproductions. They cannot use these skills creatively, eg. making new music and express emotions through music or painting. I cannot argue with a notion of "autism light", but for all puposes, these diagnoses are functional eg. they describe a disability that prevents the person from functioning in school, work or social settings. Eg. without disability, there's no diagnosis of autism. The lack of communicating/social skills must be present in childhood, and is most likely a major cause of retardism (we develop through interaction). The best functioning autist (including those with "abilities") are generally also those who's social competence level was most adequate. For those still interested I include the diagnostic criteria for Asperger from DSM IV:
299.80 pervasive Developmental Disorder Not otherwise Specified 77
/ Diagnostic criteria for 299.80 Asperger's Disorder
A, Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity
13. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger dapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years).
F,. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.
F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.
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Hey there BigUC,
I feel that certain "traits" of Asperger's may be fairly common but go undiagnosed due to their lack of severity. Also, physicians these days are all to quick to diagnose children with depression, bi-polarism, or Attention Deficit Disorder, then proceed to medicate it.
I think many of the symptoms associated with these disorders are quite similar, and are therefore hard to diagnose. Perhaps some are actually the same disorder with varying degrees of severity. Who knows...
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Originally posted by miko2d
Now, visualising the fractional dimention is another matter...
miko
answer is easy........
SNOWFLAKES......under microscope show exactly that.....Fractions :D
was actually a frenchmans theory about fractionnal dimensions of space.....he used snowflakes to explain fractionnal space:cool:
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Originally posted by GrimCO
Hey there BigUC,
I feel that certain "traits" of Asperger's may be fairly common but go undiagnosed due to their lack of severity. Also, physicians these days are all to quick to diagnose children with depression, bi-polarism, or Attention Deficit Disorder, then proceed to medicate it.
I think many of the symptoms associated with these disorders are quite similar, and are therefore hard to diagnose. Perhaps some are actually the same disorder with varying degrees of severity. Who knows...
It's a good observation. However, symptoms between ADHD and Autism/Asperger are vastly different. The problem with these diagnoses are that they usually are under- or overdiagnosed in the population, normally because the practitioner fails to employ proper screening tests and other tools like CAST (Childhood Asperger Symptom Test), and instead relies on judgement or gives in to parent pressure. The etiology of these disorders is also quite different. But, as you point out, the severity varies and people diagnosed with a certian developmental disorder might or might not have the "proper" neurological abnormality for that given condition. A diagnosis of these disorders have a functional meaning (status,prediction, medication, outcome) and describes a (furture) disability. This is unlike a somatic diagnosis which also says something about cause/etiology. Having the "traits" of a disorder therefore says nothing of the cause of these traits or predicts other types of behavior. In fact, most of the criterions for any given psyciatric og developmental disease/state are present in every individual during their lifespan. It's having a certain set and the severity of these criterions, AND that they cause severe suffering/maladaptation/disabilities that validates a diagnosis. People really should look elsewhere for an explanation of their personality traits...
Sorry for hijacking and blabbering, but as you prolly guess it's in my field of work and i just can't let a good opportunity pass... :)
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LOL BigUC,
Glad somebody in here knows what they're talking about!
I get a bit frustrated at how quickly many doctors these days prescribe medications. I guess it's the quickest way to get the patients in and out the door and collect the money.
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bigUC: ...symptoms between ADHD and Autism/Asperger are vastly different.
Of course they are - considering that Autism is a real disorder while ADHD is just the term describing behavioral symptoms of a perfectly natural (unmedicated) boyhood.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
bigUC: ...symptoms between ADHD and Autism/Asperger are vastly different.
Of course they are - considering that Autism is a real disorder while ADHD is just the term describing behavioral symptoms of a perfectly natural (unmedicated) boyhood.
miko
Thats a nice opinion. Not gonna take that bait...
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:D Well, some of ADHD are probably legitimate cases.
But all of the cases of that I saw were description of my childhood to the smallest detail.
I was lucky not being raised here - I could have been medicated to the gills.
Only in my last two grades in school did I go from straight "C" to straight "A" and then two perfect G.P.A.s in two masters degrees.
Do you know what percentage of US kids are currently diagnosed with AD and ADHD and medicated? Do you know that school administrators rather than doctors or parents now make decisions concerning the need to medicate children as a condition of admitting them to school?
miko