Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: scooby on May 03, 2003, 12:59:57 PM
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i was watching a program the other day and they said that the F22 was more Maneuverable than the SU37...
i was under the impression that the F22 was a better all round fighter, but the SU37 had better maneuverability....
which one has better maneuverability?
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On paper the Su37 should be more maneuverable than the F-22. A close guns furball between those two should be quite a show. It would definetly depend on the pilot cause the F-22 can do some nice maneuvers too.
But in the real would the F-22 would kill the flanker before the pilot even knew there was a raptor around.
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ok, ya, i figurd that the SU37 would be mroe maneuverable tho, plus i read somewhere that it was..
i mean it' has thrust vectoring on both engines right?
and they can go in opposite directions..or am i thinking a different plane?
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Originally posted by scooby
ok, ya, i figurd that the SU37 would be mroe maneuverable tho, plus i read somewhere that it was..
i mean it' has thrust vectoring on both engines right?
and they can go in opposite directions..or am i thinking a different plane?
Yes thats the Su37... and the F-22 also does thrust vectoring, just not to the extreme degrees the flanker can.
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I doubt that it really matter anymore does it? Todays missles are standoff weapons and it would be quite a surprise to see two opposing fighters get that close.
dago
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I've seen some footage of the F-22 doing high angle of attack thrust vectoring maneuvers that were incredible. When these things start doing airshows you are not going to believe it.
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plus russian equipment has been shown to be so effective.
This russian equipment stuff is a myth, it sucks. Even when used by russians, it sucks.
They steamrolled through afghanistan with it .:rolleyes: they steamrolled through chechnya with it.:rolleyes: Its the walmart gear of the defense world.
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Dnil,
To my knowledge Russians didn't use first class technology in cheznya.
Besides the wars against guerrilla forces are very different from the conventional wars between armies.
Like some might've noticed some examples of it in the recent Iraq war, although nothing comparable to afganistan or cheznya.
People were far more motivated against russians than americans in Iraq - where Iraq's own armies fled from saddams rule :>
If you want an example how it works against US, just look at the Vietnam war - how much good did the US technology do there?
There was a blend of guerrilla war and typical war armies vs armies.
Russians do have some impressive systems designed, that US doesn't, but does the goverment have money and will to utilize it to an extent that US does?
So far russian stuff has been more into simplificy (reliability) and lesser prices.
Where as US does everything opposed to that :>
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Originally posted by Fishu
If you want an example how it works against US, just look at the Vietnam war - how much good did the US technology do there?
You're right about the Russians beating us in Vietnam, but not militarily as you suggest. It was commie infiltration and subversion that created the anti-war hippie generation. That's why we lost that one.
Tongue-only-half-in-cheek.
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The russians could have crushed the chechens into oblivion but they are being held back by the UN and says that crushing them to oblivion is "an act of war crime"
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Originally posted by AKIron
You're right about the Russians beating us in Vietnam, but not militarily as you suggest. It was commie infiltration and subversion that created the anti-war hippie generation. That's why we lost that one.
Tongue-only-half-in-cheek.
Russians?
I'm not talking about russians there.
Its a pure example of that how technology becomes different issue under such circumstances like in vietnam, cheznya and afganistan, when people are less welcoming the foreign forces.
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My misunderstanding then Fishu, although you did use "Russians" in almost every sentence of your post. And of course the Vietnamese were supplied with Russian hardware and advice.
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The F-22 is already 13 years old with development begining in 1981.
I have heard that we have a few different supposedly super-secret, hypersonic air breathing fighter and bomber prototypes capable of reaching space.
Makes you wonder what these fighters and bombers and their missions will be like in 20 years time. Everything is changing so rapidly now. I feel that not many countries will be able to keep up with the the US in military hardware, technology or defence spending.
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woohooo look at the commie lovers come outa the wood work on that one.......:) I kinda like this :)
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Originally posted by Dnil
woohooo look at the commie lovers come outa the wood work on that one.......:) I kinda like this :)
If the commies don't want to hear it from me, they can find it on Pravda, circa 2002
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/11/05/39145.html
Secret American Space Planes to Dominate Planet Earth
The USA has been working on secret, new-generation space planes
The Americans invented a new aircraft, which is almost like a rocket. The new plane was invented by American defense scientists with an eye towards the future
Here, we are talking about totally new kinds of aircraft
In other words, America is working on the first ever space army, which would provide the United States with complete domination in near-Earth orbit. It will not be possible for any anti-missile defense complexes to hit such planes, as they will be completely out of reach. The American space army will be able to hit any target on planet Earth at any moment.
I doubt that Russia is ready to fight with these American space planes
I happened to read about these planes in a recent Popular Science magazine.
There is not much hope for any country keeping up the the US IMO.
forgot my fav quote :
Soviet engineers tried to challenge the Americans and designed a unique aircraft called the Buran. Unfortunately, the aircraft proved to be unsuccessful, and competition with the USA failed
yeah, that Buran was sure unique alright....a totally new looking craft that amazed everyone with it's awesome creative design :)
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Originally posted by NUKE
The F-22 is already 13 years old with development begining in 1981.
looks like F-22 will be like the JU-87. The Ju-87 was already obsolete when it enter service in WWII
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as for russian equipment sucking, last i checked their short range missles AA11 were much better then anything we had till Sindwinder 9x, which entered service something like 10 years later.
Also off boresight stuff they've done was way up there.
AA10 were supposed to be pretty hot **** too.
Overall gap ain't what it used to be, but they sure ran out of cash.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
looks like F-22 will be like the JU-87. The Ju-87 was already obsolete when it enter service in WWII
No it will just be 10 years ahead of anything from Russia, instead of 20.
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Originally posted by funkedup
No it will just be 10 years ahead of anything from Russia, instead of 20.
True, the SU-37 first flew 6 years after the F-22 and Russia hasn't ordered one ( as far as I know)
With our current "next generation" projects, the Russians won't even be in same arena.....literally.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
looks like F-22 will be like the JU-87. The Ju-87 was already obsolete when it enter service in WWII
ju-87 actually was pretty new when it entered ww2...and when did you see a "obsolete" destroy thousands of russian tanks...ju-87's could take a beating and more than once a rear gunner took out a la-5...
rudel survived the war in one so it couldent be to obsolete...
next time do your homework ike
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why compare the F-22 with the old Flanker?
The F-22 is older than the Flanker...why not?
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Originally posted by GScholz
YF-22 first flight, September 7, 1997
Su-27 Flanker first flight, 20 May 1977
Eh? ... Why do you persist in being so Cod damned uninformed?
I think they are talking about the Su-37...
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Originally posted by Animal
I think they are talking about the Su-37...
YF-22 first flight was in 1990, Su37 was 1996
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Originally posted by GScholz
Which is a modification of the Su-27. Just like the F-15E is to the F-15C. We're talking about a 25 year old design here.
SU-37 is total redesign, but nice try.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If the Russian active-plasma technology works as advertised any aircraft can be stealthy.
http://iron-eagles.tripod.com/articles/active.htm
If the US space planes work as Russia advertises, Russia cannot compete with us..... Like they could ever compete in the first place.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I wonder why the Indies are bying all this new stuff from the Russians. We might see something happening in that area soon.
You know what's interesting about India? they have more than a billion people, yet they can't build a modern tank or fighter.
Compair that with Israel for instance.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Nope, no more than the F-15E.
Sorry, this is just wrong.
The F-15E did not have improvements nearly as radical as full axis thrust vectoring and cannards. A better comparison would be the F-16XL
Wether it is a redesign or not, that is not the point. The Su37 first flew in 1996.
In a close furball, pilots with equal skill, the Su37 apparently has an advantage over the Raptor.
But still, the F-22 is the better plane. By far.
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Originally posted by NUKE
You know what's interesting about India? they have more than a billion people, yet they can't build a modern tank or fighter.
Compair that with Israel for instance.
Of course they can.
They just dont see the need to make such a HUGE investment in weapon development when they can buy perfectly capable models from a country which has more experience and manpower in that area.
Israel does have that need.
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Wow GScholz, you really have to heavily modify your perspective to keep so anti-everything-US now don't you.
The Su-37 was a redesign of the Su-27, not a modification.- wing area increase from 639 sq-ft to 667 sq-ft.
- fixed sweep outer wing section instead of the ogive one
- tip air-to-air launchers
- leading edge maneuvering flaps instead of fixed sections
- lower wing chord camber
- removal of ailerons and extension flaps for plain flaperons
- smaller canopy and canopy rear-slope
- smaller fuselage cross-section in front & rear of cockpit
- larger fuselage cross-section just forward of fuel tanks
- increased fillet radii between lifting body & forward fuselage
- smaller cross-sectional area of dorsal fairing
- engine accessory drive moved to the top to decrease frontal area, improved sectional area curve behavior, and to reduce aircraft wetted area decreasing subsonic & wave drag while lowering structure weight
- introduction of an extended fuselage stinger section between the engines to recover and increase internal fuel capacity
- engine intake screens for FOD protection and shutter suck-in doors under the inlet for additional air when needed
- movement of vertical stabilizers outboard of the engines and allowed the stabilator actuators fairings to be blended reducing wetted area and drag while increasing stability
- improved anti-flutter of horizontal stabilizers
- main landing gear given skewed main pivot joints
- air brakes were replaced with a single brake on top
- improved wing planform that decreased drag & improved lift
- a workable avionics suite that benefited from extended schedules and western technology finds
- improved static-unstable hybrid electronic/hydraulic flight control system
- high use of titanium to meet weight/strength requirements
- radar diameter increased and lengthened 680 mm
The number of points here isn't really relevant as the points themelves. New Wings, new fuselage, relocated vertical stabilizers, new engines, new what else? They don't take a Su-27 and turn it into a Su-37, they build it from scratch because its a different aircraft that was based on the Su-27. To say its no different than an F-15E vs an F-15D is pretty damn silly.
MiniD
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If the Russian active-plasma technology works as advertised any aircraft can be stealthy.
Isnt this -Venik- translator guy the sae one who provide all of us ignorant westerners with the GRU truth reports during the Iraq war?
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The SU-37 would require an absolute master, a 20+ year, highly experienced flight test veteran to beat a regular USAF GI in a F22.
Plain and simple.
Ever seen russian workmanship "up close"?
Airframe construction is frightening with those folks......
Im guessing that in a short but EXPLOSIVE war, it would cost 10 SU37s for each F22.
Problem is you could buy 12 SU-37s for each F22.
Go figure....................... ....
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Production price is 89mil for a F22 on an order of 200+. How much does an Su37 cost?
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Manned fighters will be obsolete, maybe in my lifetime.
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I agree suave. Many fighters can pull 18-20gs, but humans cant survive that for more than milliseconds.
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thats true suave.
In the future, AH pilots will be piloting unmanned F-22 in their houses and feel like as if they're playing Falcon 3.0 on PC
having an unmanned fighter aircraft can save USAF/USN $1,000,000 for each pilot who recieves training on how to manned F-22s
:D