Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BigBen on October 23, 2000, 06:29:00 PM
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To those of us who have decried the "unbalancing" impact of the Ostwind, N1K2, CHOG, G10, 190, SpitIX, StratoFort laser-guided bombing, and most other planes at one time or another...
AH is a fantastic sim, given the scope of what it is attempting to model. Sure, there may be some idiosyncracies here and there and minor problems that need to be (and likely will be) addressed. AH is still growing, as are we pilots, and the development team grows with us.
But consider for a moment the typical pilot of these splendid simulated machines.
How many of you firewall the throttle and keep it there until you dive in on your prey?
If Hitech or Superfly could snap their fingers and make everything 100% realistic, I'm will to bet that 90% of AH pilots would be swimming with the sheep before reaching 10K'on their first sortie of the evening.
90% of you... I include myself in this number... maybe even 95% or 99%... firewall the throttle at takeoff. We climb to 10 or 15 or 20 thousand feet and accelerate to max level speed at well above redline MP and prop RPM on our way to the fight. MAYBE we occasionally increase the prop pitch to shift into overdrive and save fuel. I usually do power back a bit at cruise.
I remember watching an F4U training film once. The F4U used some incredibly low power setting at cruise, like 25" MP and 1200 RPM. CHOG is my ride, so I better watch the film again and check. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But my point is this. We fly these birds, however well modelled, well above their normal capability. For the most part, we pilots are uber, not the planes.
The fact is, you simply CAN'T run a turbocharged engine at full MP anywhere within 2 or 3 miles of sea level for an extended period, especially when leaned for best power (which AH does automatically or not at all) without leaving cylinders as souvenirs for the children watching the dogfights from below. CHT and EGT (cylinder head temp and exhaust gas temp) climb far too high too fast and stress critical engine components. You literally burn up the engine from the inside out until metal melts or cracks under the stress and things go BOOM and stop in a hurry.
We all want realism, to one degree or another. I certainly do. But let's not put the entire burden on HTC. We make these planes do things they were never designed to do anyway.
Of course, it would sure be boring to cruise around at 150 KIAS in my C-HOG. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Frankly,I wouldn't mind seeing at least a slightly more dynamic modeling of engines and power settings. We really should be able to at least overheat and damage the engine if we climb for too long at full power and low airpseed.
Just my $.02. Nothing earth shaking at all!
PS if you want to see how these planes were REALY flown, you can watch WWII training videos on line at www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com)
Great stuff, I higly recommend them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) American planes only though.
BigBen
[This message has been edited by BigBen (edited 10-23-2000).]
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Ben, thanks for the link, Zeno's site rocks ! Very nice stuff.
Ket
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Good points BigBen. I do wish they would include overheating if at 100% power too long.
I was watching the F6F video from Zeno's this afternoon. Hope more folks get a chance to! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Hi
Zenos is a cool site I wonder if there are simmilar training films for non US planes out there for him to post. I agree 100% with you, some form of engine overheat modeling or something of the sort must be modeled, tho ill bet that German and Japanese planes will get an arbitrarely lower level of full power runs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
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I would have to agree with you BigBen. The majority of people "firewall" the throttle on take off and wonder why they have such horrendous torque roll on take off. I had that problem at first in here but that was way back in EARLY BETA and took some getting used to the different power settings and prop settings. Now I say BRING IT ON HTC!
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Maj. LJK_Reschke
Kommandeur Jagdbomber,
StaffelKapitaen I-31 LJK
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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But But But, HT has flown an P51 in real life <G,D,R>
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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I floor it, and leave it there, from takeoff to where ever. I kill power on landing. If a fight is a long ways off, I'll cut back to cruise settings and leave it be. About 5 minutes out, I'll floor it again and maybe punch WEP is the fight is coming my way.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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For what it's worth...
I would like to see increasing temperature when engines are held at high MP numbers and rpm.
delta
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Overheating w/ consequences (not just a WEP shutdown) would be a great addition- it would add strategy to the enroute portion of flying and also to extended combat operations. It would also be great if someone could compile a list of specs for for proper power settings and power management. Here's an example I found at Zeno's (and for proper credit - www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com) is the source and a GREAT SITE! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/F4U/F4USEC.GIF)
BB
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There are also some performance charts on the site... I'm going to try to validate some of them later this evening. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll report back my findings.
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ben, those are recomended settings. PW R2800 engines have been tested at full MP for hours at sea level. Overheating can occur and any use of wep or full throttle shortens time to overhaul but allmost any WWII engine could run 100% throttle for 20 min to an hour with a pretty fair chance of surviving. It certainly was not the best thing to do in a real war but it was possible. The arena with it's 10 minute sorties is the reason full throttle is no big deal IMO.
lazs
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Lazs,
I don't for a moment doubt what you are saying, but my point is just that people ought to keep in mind that while many are demanding realism and complaining about the slightest deviation, individual pilot technique tends to be least realistic of all. But it's all for fun and we enjoy it, so who cares? Even so, I think I'll try flying by the book for a couple of hours and see how I do against the uber-pilots. Just for laughs.
Later that night....
Knit A: "hey, who's that low slow C-HOG?"
Lo Slo C-hog: "BigBen of the MOL"
Knits A,B,C, and D: "Let's bounce him!"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BB
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The skills required to fly AH are slowly being dumbed down...
Remember the weak gear on AC in beta for example. Combat trim...
Need I say more +)
SKurj
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Yep ben.. you could but without 7 hour sorties it just doesn't make much difference. You will read lots of accounts of pilots running full throttle with no oil pressure or running wep till all the water was gone (10 min or so). These planes had to be thouroghly checked after such activities. Some had wire seals on the throttle that broke when wep was applied so that mechanics new the engine had been run hard.
I have an account of a Hog running for 20 min with no oil pressure, landing on an emergency strip, seabees fixing the holed oil tank and refilling with oil and him taking back off again. Numerous accounts of radials coming home with 1 or more cylinders shot clear off (not fuel injected radials).
lazs
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IMO, I think the FM was dumbed down to attract the WB groups over here to AH, strictly my opinion, and I'm entitled to my own opinion. Flame away.
<Don's blow torch goggles>
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In the online arena are we 1-for-1 in fuel burn and in distances? If we are then overheating due to a fire-walled throttle for too long a duration is not an issue. But if the fuel burn rate and terain distances are at a magnified level for playability sake then I believe we should have the effect of staying at 100% throttle modelled also.
-Westy
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I beleive there is some modeling of temp already. If you run WEP for a while temp gauge will redline. Does need some tweakin though. Another one of those realism/playability issues that causes so much angst.
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Hehe what if they somehow modeled "wear and tear" on your different planes? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Have it track how long you spent at mil power and how long at WEP. (Even if you get shot down.) Once you reach "overhaul time," if you try to select that plane, you get a graphic of a pissed-off crew chief, cigar between his teeth, saying "We're workin on it, college boy, fly something else!"
And you have to pick another plane.
I got a million of 'em! How bout "real" wind, "real" turbulence, and "real" landing gear strength. Not that anyone cares if they land or not, but what we're doin now is NOT "landing." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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westy... they model fuel consumption faster than real but they do not model time to spped or climb faster. distances are a moot point since they aren't modeled on anything. Surely tho.... if your engine were to be overstressed in such a short sortie environment as AH then climb and time to speed would have to be compressed also.
jedi? My jedi?
lazs
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I liked it better when the fuel burn rate modifier was set higher. The issue of fuel management came into play. This is not really a factor today.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
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Cc. I comprende' a bit better.
It just seems kind of goofy to be able to take a fighter aircraft, rev it to 100% on take off and leave it there till you meet a foe. And then watch a temp guage for WEP endurance.
-Westy
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yeah, but in such a compressed time frame I don't really want to be all that busy for the sake of being busy. i heard that the russians would routinely fly at full throttle when the action was close. In the pacific, some fields were only 70 miles away and pilots actually took off in Corsairs with less than full tanks and used full throttle for the entire sortie. It was not unknown to remove the tailhook and 2 outside mg's either. Boost could be turned up on PW R2800 for more than the standard HP. Anything that could be tried was tried at least once I bet.
lazs
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There's a whole host of things that would be neat in terms of improving the damage model for the engine. Right now, the engine produces full power or nothing. Oil leaks out in x time (aircraft dependent)everytime. We don't have to worry about cowl flaps, or mixture, or prop pitch. All engines are equally reliable. Outside air temperature doesn't matter. You can't overtemp it by climbing too steeply. None of the planes overheat sitting on the ground. The gasoline is always top quality.
OK, I could go on, but the question to ask is whether this is the best place to be spending the developers time right now given the current state of AH. My guess would be, no.