Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Technical Support => Topic started by: guttboy on May 07, 2003, 06:24:07 PM
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Hi Guys....
Skuzzy spoke with you today and got the H2H setup by enabling ports 2000-5000 on my computer. That works GREAT...my only problem is that when guys are in the H2H map I have setup we cant use vox.
I am using liteflite and had Artlaw run an identical map. His vox works and in my room it does not.
Any clues as to why it wont work in h2h?????
MA vox works fine.
Regards....
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Guttboy,
This won't help you, but I thought I'd mention I'm having the same problem and same symptoms
Config
Cable modem -> linksys -> WinXP static Ip 192.168.1.2
I setup up Linksys port forwarding for UDP & TCP ports 1025 - 65535 (out of desperation) , no joy on VOX
After that didn't work, I put the Xp box's Ip in the DMZ host entry, still no joy on VOX.
Only other clue I have is ppl are telling me that I don't have a ping rate in the selection page, but they can connect, download map, play along, and text chat, just no VOX!
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks
James Lerch
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James,
Someone has to know the answer out there. I have enabled the ports 2000-5000 so that the game can be played but alas no vox.
Hopefully someone can help us out!
Good Luck....
SKUZZY???????
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Try running your room with your cable connection directly connected to your computer and see what happens.
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Skuzzy,
I'd could try that, and it would probably work, but I have 3 web servers, a unix box, and 2 wireless laptops on this lan asides from my workstation. Plus the thought of pluggin my MicroSlop XP workstation directly into the Inet sends shivers down my spine ;)
I'm a pretty good network guy, and I know my way around an IP stack. I setup some sniffers and didn't see any obvious Incomming/Outgoing packets getting dropped, or the NAT not rejecting data from the Lan/Wan....
If I knew a little more about the tech behind VOX, I might be able to figure out what's up. Got any links handy?
Thanks
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Here's another idea I tried that still didn't work.
Turned on the UPnP service on the Linksys Router
Installed XP's UPnP network service
WinXP now shows my Linksys BEFSR81 router in "My Network Places" (Isn't that special!)
After reading the white pages on Direct Play Voice (assuming that's what you guys use for Voice control), I saw a mention on UPnP, and that during Direct Play peer to peer, UPnP would be invoked if possible to auto-configure the router.
In any event, no joy on VOX.
Here's what I still get for the following situations
No Port mappings: (with & without UPnP)
Main Arena, Dueling, training, and Special events all work as advertised.
I can join H2H sessions, and VOX is fine
I can NOT host a H2H session
Manual Port mapping for UDP/TCP 2-5K or put Priivate IP in DMZ:
Main Arean et all work as before
I can join H2H session, and VOX is fine
I can HOST an H2H session, but NO VOX
This is starting to turn into one of those "OK, so it won't work, but WHY won't it work" Answer: "Its your Firewall" My Responce: "What about the firewall makes it not work" :)
I once spent WAY to many hours learning all the ins and outs of FTP servers using non-standard ports, Firewalls, and when (or when not to) use the PASV command. I finally came to an understanding of how all that worked, and in some cases why it didn't!
FYI,
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We do not use DirectPlay. I suggested taking the router out of the loop just to verify it may be the problem.
It seems some Linksys routers work and others don't, which points to possible firmware issues regarding the NAT implementation and UDP.
Here is my thought. If you have 2 computers behind a NAT, which attempt to establish a UDP connection from the same port number, it may fail. As UDP is stateless, there is no way for the NAT router to build a table back to the originating system, due to the same port being used.
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Skuzzy,
Tried taking the router out of the loop and no success.
VR,
TG12
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Skuzzy,
During a few minutes of 'High Pucker Factor' I plugged my naked XP workstation directly into the cable modem after disabling file and print sharing and turning on DHCP (BTW, port 135 & 139 still had listeners even after rebooting, Freaking MS products!)
Setup the H2H session, got a squadie to join, and YUP Vox works!
OK, so its something to do with the firewall, before I get on the phone with Linksys, I need a little more info.
The below is all in regards to H2H hosted sesions
#1 I see a TCP session for each player, I assume this is for managment of "where" each player is, and all their pertinent data. Is this TCP session also used for Text communications?
#2 For VOX, UDP is the protocol used I assume. For the moment, lets just say a simple VOX transmission fits inside one UDP packet. Since we don't establish a session with UDP, my voice is digitized, the data is assembled into a UDP datagram with a Source port, Destination Port, Length, UDP checksum followed by the data. For each user on the channel, a copy of the UDP packet is sent to them via IP.
At this point, lets assume just 2 players, me and guttboy both with NAT firewalls. I've keyed the mike, AH made the UDP Packet, addressed it to guttboys IP, and off it goes out of my Computer. Now, lets follow this IP/UDP packet, and see if I got this idea under control.
#1 The packet leaves my computer with a destination of guttboys public IP
#2 The packets first stop is My Nat, where my Nat strips out my Private IP addy from the Source IP field, and replaces it with the Nats public IP, then forwards the packet
#3 The packet traverses the interenet
#4 The packet arrives at guttboys Public IP, where his Nat receives it.
#5 His Nat looks at the UDP destination port, compares this to the port forwarding rules, and based on the rules decides to forward it to guttboys private IP.
#6 guttboys NAT, strips out his Public IP from the Packet destination IP field, and replaces it with his Private IP, and forwards it to his computer.
#7 His computer gets the IP packet, where the AH listener (hopefully listening on the right port number) digests the data and converts it back into Audio.
Seems pretty simple, the only place I can see this breaking down is "How does AH Know guttboys IP address?" As I see it there are only two answers:
#1 AH knows guttboys IP address based on the Source IP address found in the on going TCP session. If this is true, The source IP will be his PUBLIC IP.
#2 AH knows guttboys IP address based on data encapsulated inside the TCP session data, in which case AH might be saying guttboys IP is his PRIVATE IP, in which case the addressing will get all screwed up.
Now, to totaly confuse stuff, I really wonder how this works when playing in the main arena... Since I never setup any port forwarding rules on my NAT during Main Arena play, just how could a UDP packet make it all the way to my private IP? Obviously something else is going on, Maybe its going through the TCP session, Maybe some type of UDP 'Session' is established, even though UDP should be connectionless, implying that no session exists, I can image that my NAT is setting up some type of UDP sesion table, and forwarding the incomming UDP packets based on this sesion table..
Somethings getting screwed up, I just wish I knew exactly how all this worked! :)
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There are things I simply cannot discuss in regard to how our network code works.
But let's make it generic. You made some assumptions about NAT.
First of all, a NAT router has to build a translation table internally so it can track what computer on the private side gets an incoming packet.
The translation table consists of the MAC address of the local private system and a port number. The router replaces the source address of the outbound packet with its own IP address.
This is how the packet will get routed back to the router.
In some NAT routers, the router will supplant the port number as well, but some don't. I would be surprised if the Linksys routers did this.
Bottomline is this. If it works without the router, but does not work with the router, then I would have to say the router is either not able to handle UDP NAT packets or is not setup correctly, or has a bug in the firmware.
I cannot go into more detail about how our code works.
Guttboy, something is blocking a port or your computer is flat out of resources (I doubt the latter). Make sure everything is shutdown on your computer that can be shutdown and try it again.
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Linksys 4-port router most certainly has problems...
Not only can I not support HtH VOX on my home computer, but the one at work has issues with allowing our server to provide FTP support to our Atlanta office. We actually had to go back 3 firmware versions to get it to work at all, and of course we have all the problems the later versions were supposed to fix :mad:
Linksys PCI ethernet cards also caused problems with hosting HtH games on my 4 computers at home. Their tech support could only suggest things I had already tried. I switched to D-Link PCI cards and everything worked great.
So, overall, I am not the biggest fan of Linksys at this point.
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Skuzzy,
Here's some additional interesting data I've found.
Setup
Cable mode -> Linksys Nat -> Packet Sniffer -> Xp Host
In the above config, I have NO NONE NADA outgoing or incomming UDP packets while trying to transmit to someone on VOX channel. AH is supposed to use UDP for VOX, YES??
I have a bunch of TCP packets flying back and forth between all the H2H connections, but the pattern of flow doesn't seem to change when VOX toggled (IE Number of packets, nor size of packets seems to be changing..)
Going to go back to the direct connect config, and re-sniff for UDP packets...
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OK, this is really Odd :confused:
When Direct connected to Cable modem, my XP box hosting H2H generats LOTS of UDP traffic to/From IP addys of ppl I'm speaking with on VOX (which works). The Traffic is directly related to WHEN the mike is keyed..
When Behind firewall NO UDP traffic is Ever generated (Ok, on a recent scan, I did get one UDP packet for a DNS query...)
So why would AH not even TRY and generate UDP traffic when behind firewall? Very weird.. I might understand if AH were producing Mal-formed UDP traffic, but its not making ANY UDP traffic.....
ALso, with AH producing NO UDP traffic, I'm less likely to suspect the NAT, since the NAT can't NAT something its not getting.....
Very weird IMHO....
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Skuzzy,
I understand the need not to speak about your network code!
Let me ask this, has Anyone ever been able to host an H2H session WITH VOX, while behind a NAT Firewall and using an IP in the Private Range (192.168.x.x)?
If so, has anyone been able to do it on an XP home edition machine?
Thanks,
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Skuzzy,
One last bit of info before I call it a night.
With the firewall in place and no-port mappings AND while in the Main Arena, I have UDP packets flying back and forth from AH and Myself while VOX keyed.
So it would seem in this case the router/firewall can handle UDP traffic...
Really weird :)
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Skuzzy,
Shut everything down and just AH running with direct connect to modem....no vox. Really unsure on this ....at least I can get the room running and hopefully someone in my squad can host for vox.
PS....I always shut everything off while running AH. Really strange that I dont have vox in H2H but I have it in MA.
Regards!
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Lerch and Skuzzy:
I have EXACTLY the same situation when I host, but I am using a Netgear router connecting to the Internet via DSL. I can use AH voice in the main arena and in most H2H arenas, but not in my own H2H arena. Many players in my arena report that AH voice does not work for them there.
I can add some more information which will raise the mystery to new levels. I have been troubleshooting this for several weeks. Among my experiments, I subscribed to a second, separate ISP via a modem, so I now have 2 completely independent ISPs.
While hosting H2H from my main computer thru my normal Netgear NAT router and DSL connection.....
I have a second computer on my LAN and I bought a modem for it. When I use the modem to dial in to this second, remote ISP, that computer gets a new IP address, in a different subnet (exactly as you would expect). From that second computer I can fly AH in H2H mode and everything works just great in the Main arena and in most H2H areas.
In fact, I can use both computers to fly AH in H2H mode simultaneosuly, and I can use AH voice on both of them simultaneosuly when I go into the Main Arena or into most H2H areas.
As an experiment, I used my second computer/ISP (the modem one) to access my own H2H arena (the Netgear/NAT/DSL one). I can fly in my own arena without problems. At first I thought I had no AH voice in that situation, but after probing further, I found I can ALWAYS get it to work if I begin by tuning directly to another player using his handle. After I've done that once for any given player, I can then speak with that same player on any shared channel. This is so wierd that I've done it dozens of times just to convince myself that I'm not going nuts. It works reliably, 100% of the time, with good audio quality. Never misses. My two computers can converse in my arena with AH voice til the cows come home! And the host is behind my Netgear/NAT firewall.
(As I write this I realize perhaps I should disconnect the ethernet cable from the second, modem-equipped computer, just to make sure I've eliminated every possible back channel. I haven't tried that.)
I've encouraged others in my arena to try the same thing (tuning directly to me by name), and NOBODY ELSE can do it. But it works EVERY time for me, between my two computers, each connecting to each other through separate ISPs across the Internet.
Does that shed any useful light in Skuzzy'z fertile mind?
Regards,
Peabody
(My setup is described in great detail in this slightly out-of-date web site:)
http://www.geocities.com/rjbosen/fslab.htm
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OK. I have the results of another experiment and I think the new information is significant.
I disconnected the Ethernet from the SECOND (modem-equipped) computer described in my posting immediately above. With the ethernet disconnected, AH voice QUIT working. When I reconnected the ethernet cable, AH voice began working again within a minute or so. This was while using 2 computers with 2 separate ISPs to access my H2H arena, hosted behind a Netgear NAT firewall router and DSL connection.
As described in my prior post, I have been able to get AH voice to work between these 2 computers, but I now conclude that the AH voice logic was using the ETHERNET connection between them even though the remainder of the AH logic was using the modem connection.
As is usual and customary in NAT situations, the two computers, each equipped with Ethernet adapters, normally negotiate IP addresses within the class "C" 192.168.0.X subnet, and they can communicate with one another directly, with no need for an intervening router. Evidently AH Voice uses that nonrouteable connection by some kind of default. I conclude that when AH voice in one computer wishes to communicate with some other AH voice node in another computer on the Internet, it gets addressing information from some kind of "discovery" logic that found the ethernet back-channel between my two hosts until I disconnected it. Evidently this AH address discovery logic is independent from whatever logic finds the IP addresses of other AH nodes in support of the other components of AH.
I don't know how this AH Voice discovery logic works, but for some reason it appears to be incompatible with NAT.
Repeating an earlier question from this thread:
"Has ANYBODY ever hosted an AH H2H session from behind a NAT router and had success with AH voice?"
Maybe the AH voice protocol is fundamentally incompatible with NAT?
Regards,
-Peabody-
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Actually, it is NAT and UDP, which is the problem. NAT has never liked UDP, especially async UDP where the computer behind the NAT does not initiate the connection.
Thanks for the details bbosen. It helps. I'll get a look into this a bit further tomorrow.
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I have tried tuning to people directly to talk to them but no avail.
I can, however, Tune to my handle and talk....is there something odd with that????
:confused:
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I too can always tune directly to myself and hear my own voice, echoed back to me from within my own computer, while hosting H2H from behind my Netgear NAT firewall. I think this is further evidence that the problem has something to do with NAT's well-known limitations when trying to map UDP packets, since the echo path never hits the NAT router in this case.
It is becoming clear to me that AH use of UDP in support of AH Voice is different (and less robust) than AH use of UDP in support of other functions. Although I wish that were not the case, I guess we are just lucky that AH works in this setup at all..... ; )
Note that some of my squadmembers use "Roger Wilco" simultaneously with Aces High when we want to converse via voice while I host my arena. This works quite well so long as the Roger Wilco host is NOT behind a NAT firewall. Sometimes I host Roger Wilce from my second computer (the one with the MODEM) using my second ISP (No NAT). That works splendidly, but it's a bit of a hassle to set up and I can't just leave it set up all the time because it ties up my phone line.
(Hint..... is AH voice really a repackaged Roger Wilco derivative?)
-Peabody-
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Sigh,..AHVoice is 100% developed by HTC.
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Just a thought...Could it be that some of us have been denied Vox in AH becuase we might have said something we shouldn't have? I am an ex-Marine and I have the foul language to prove it. While I do honestly try to control my poor language I do slip up from time to time. My Vox never had a problem until just recently. With and without my Linksys. Understanding one of my failures returning to civilian life the thought has occured to me that I might be Permi-Squelched by AH so I can't pollute tha airways anymore. I can't remember saying anything but I'm sure it has happened. Could this be a reason, Skuzzy for some of our problems? My current AH ID is Wyvren.
Thank You,
Jougal A.K.A Wyvren
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Well.... No.
I am absolutely certain that my problems are not related to the foul word filter.
-Peabody-