Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: llbm_MOL on January 14, 2001, 08:31:00 PM
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Pure suicide.
I want the old WB's auto instead of this b29 uber guns crap. Tired of it. If a buff is coming to base he's got a free pass from me. Not ever attacking one again untill the guns are changed. I dont wanna hear about all you uber buff killers cuase I think your full of it. Ive tried every suggestion made to kill a damn buff and some of them work ...about 20% of the time. Not good enough odds for me. If you get one frigging ping from a buff gun thenyour getting hit by every 50 cal that can "see" your plane. Pure roadkill.
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!
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come high right at around 350, makes for a hard shot for buff, after pass climb and repeta, thats all ive got.
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Yup - I've made that same vow myself...more than a few times.
That is, unless I'm with a wingman or two, or a few other guys are there also going after it... or I'm feeling just plain suicidal. Ya really need to coordinate your attack with someone else.
Fahgett otto though! Just bring a friend.
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Hey, llbm, I graduated from Clear Creek H.S.
Adjustable otto or super-duper fire control. Hobb's choice.
[This message has been edited by Gadfly (edited 01-14-2001).]
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Bahh!
Buffs are easy. From tour 11....
hblair has 7 kills and has been killed 2 times against the Lancaster III.
hblair has 9 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Ju 88.
hblair has 11 kills and has been killed 3 times against the B-26B.
hblair has 10 kills and has been killed 4 times against the B-17G.
...and I don't consider myself good at it. As good as LLBM is in a fighter, he'll come around on the bombers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 01-14-2001).]
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
come high right at around 350, makes for a hard shot for buff, after pass climb and repeta, thats all ive got.
wobble ive been 400ias+ and i diving, curving
attack and didnt make it past 900 out.
buff guns are BS, along with thier 40k alt ability. if a p47 had the leath of 8 50s like
8 50s of a buff, it would be more gun poweer thena chog.
whels
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Hi
I dont care how many of those "50" cals
shoot at me, as long as they make them Golly-geen 50cals like on the fighters. Killing out to 1.4, killing with 1 ping, fankly those are not the 50cals as on fighters. So buff drivers make a choice real 50cals and B29 aiming, or buff super "50"cals and some other aiming system. Otherwise I want "gameplay" adjusted gun setting for my figher when the computer realises im attacking a bomber - lets say Hispano balistics and 30mm warhead explosive power. Sounds good to you guys?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I too am trying to avoid bombers as of late. Please Re-evaluate how the whole buff gun issue is handled, I know that the buff guys have some valid points but the current solution is both unrealistic and considering the destruvctive effect and 100% accuracy a lone bombers has- very unfair to defending fighters.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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There is a trick to kill buffs.
Once you learn it no buff will kill you as long as you have patients.
EYE
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welcome to the club, LLM. I've been there, done that since Tour 3 more or less.
I've attacked the occasional spawning ackstar, but few things more...
ah, forgot...and Ju-88s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Gadfly as in WB's Lizard King is from Clear Creek!!??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) AWWWWWW toejam! hehehee No wonder your such an Ahole (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Your just as bad as me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I graduated from Dickinson bro (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LLB OUT!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by llbm_MOL (edited 01-14-2001).]
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B17's and B26's and TBM's are the only turbolaser armed buffs. Lancasters and Ju-88's have ok guns. It takes a HELL of a lot of lead to down a ju88 and a lanc, and the buff does ping you like mad, sometimes kills, most of the time damages your systems, etc.
American bombers with their turbo.50cals need some serious tuning down.
As said above, there IS a trick to kill bombers, and that is to spin around the buff's flanks so that the pilot/gunner is so busy switching between guns that they wont be able to track you.
I took b17 and b26 last night for some sorties and its UNREAL how easy it is to kill a fighter. I killed several at d1.3. They were trying to get in front of me by flying at a distance parallel to my buff. I just squeezed one tracer every sec to see where the tracers fell, then when I thought it was close I let out a long squeeze... one ping and that fighter was a wreck. The second fighter came from the top-right doing the same thing.... same trick... 2 pings, that plane blew up in a spectacular fireball. and yes, at d1.1+ range.
This is absolutely ridiculous. From both a fighters point of view (which ive squeaked about from a lot) and from a buffs point of view. Those crying to keep their turbolasers are just seeing themselves forced to fly in some kind of formation or getting a wingman. Hell, if I need a wingman or a "gaming" trick (aka, swoop around buff so gunner is busy switching guns when I fire at it) to down a buff then I sure as heck want to make that buff pilot get himself escorts OR a wingman to protect himself with.
Equality to .50's. Down with Turbolasers! LONG LIVE THE YAK! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Beurling has a good point, the best way to kill a buff is to kinda annoy it to death, sont just zoom in and attack, stalk it for a while, then get your self positiones to where the buff will NOT have a straight on shot at you as you approach dont bear down and fire till he dies, cut in fast fire a 2 second blast and turn before he can track in on you, it takes longer but you are likley to live and there is a good chance ya can run him outta ammo
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Sure Wobble, and you do that on 40K buffs?
and when they have "little friends" nearby?
I definitely let engaging on-the-way bombers since, in 1.01 I died on a high speed dive on the 1 o clock of a bomber, firing all 4 cannons of my Fw190A8.
The bomber survived. Me not. The answer I got to the message on the forums whas "you were facing 5 50 cals, buddy, is normal you died". 50 cals? lol. turbomegafluxlasers.
I still recall a mission loooong way back in 1.00 or 1.01, flying with JG2, I flew as gunner on a B17 mission to the Bish HQ (remember it as if it was yesterday) and achieving hits at 1.8K.
So, to the hell with that crap. Gameplay, and sorry, my prettythang. They already have the pinpoint laser-guided bombsight, dont understand why must they carry on board more firepower than the USS Excelsior.
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You don't know how easy it is to kill a buff. lancasters are easy, no botom guns.
B17's are the trickiest i think, but if you come in from the side high and roll, i get kill all the time with that. I don't see how u complain about buff guns. Maybe they gave buffs good guns because usually they are flying ALONE not like in ww2. Rarely do i get escort.Remember i was watching this thing on the Histroy chanel today, and they said to send out b17's in daylight was suicide without escorts. We get better guns cause we never have escorts.
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"Maybe they gave buffs good guns because usually they are flying ALONE not like in ww2. Rarely do i get escort.Remember i was watching this thing on the Histroy chanel today, and they said to send out b17's in daylight was suicide without escorts. We get better guns cause we never have escorts."
Sorry bud, but if I, the fighter require to have 2 or more buds with me to shoot your lone buff butt down, I sure as heck think its fair for YOU to get a wingman or 2 and fly in box formation or get an escort.
To get one thing clear, I truly believe the .50's on buffs ARE the same ones on the fighters, the difference is that the buff guns seem to have perfect convergence. If ONE bullet hits you, so do all the other guns that were facing you. So a lucky ping achieved while spraying the air around the con is the equivalent of having a P-38's guns hitting you without deflection.
Strato buffs are not as common now as they were before, but they are still out there... at 32k where fighters stall at the slightest pull of the stick (and aint that good for em turbolasers? heehee).
Heeey.. make the acks REALLY accurate at 22k+.. blast em cosmonauts hehehe...
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TBM and Ju88 gunners are very dangerous. TBM can turn like a Spitfire and fire at the same time, quite strange indeed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I saw a TBM firing while diving at 80deg and pulling up like a fighter.
I like buff hunting but yes, sometime is very annoying to be fired at from d1,2-d1,4 (depends on net-lag) with deflection.
The best way, imho, is coming down and make 2-3 passages, or coming down from high-6 and blow his tail-wings off.
Sometimes I attack from low, d1,2, zooming just into their belly, but its difficult and very dangerous, you end the maneuver just in front of their tail-gunner.
Best moment is just a little before drop, when he is aiming and doing adjustments (you can see it from those nice little rolls (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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Tell ya what LLBM
catch me one evening when the gangbang is in full swing (or when I'm not on ops for that matter) and we can fire up an H2H game and turn all the guns down to thier minimum lethality and teach ya how to track in on the various buffs.
Buff killing isn't like fighter killing, you can't just pull a fancy move, pull the trigger, and get instant gratification. It requires patience and finesse. Done right it's a little time consuming and slow, but you walk away w/o a scratch. Done in a hurry and.. well... they're notifying your next of kin
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Y'all always come here complaining about super guns on buffs. You want to know a good answer? Don't let the gunner get a good clean shot at you. No matter where you come in on him, if you're in a shallow turn or straight in, he'll kill you, simple as that. Jink, weave, bob, do whatever it takes, but don't give him a clean shot. If you can sneak up on him and light him up, good. But if he sees you, don't let him kill you. Get high above and in front of him, after you've passed him a good amount, turn to him and stay above him. Get your nose down a tad, and keep him below the nose. Roll on your back, then pull back a bit and light him up. Keep doing it till he dies. Otto would be able to follow you and kill you.
So, just don't give him a clean shot at you.
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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
"Fait Accompli"
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I have a feeling that buff guns dispersion were treated just the same as the fiters i.e. went to weighted dispersion.
IMO buff guns should have a lot dispersion to make it more realistic and to result something like hitting engine oil, wounding pilot etc...but not to saw wing off.
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Buff hardnes in this version is not the same anymore.. f4uc adjusted it seems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Wow LL! I have had just the opposite experience with AH buffs, 'cept the B26. I used to die all the time trying to kill the 'otto' in WB and gave up in frustation there myself. Here in AH tho the only one that gives me fits is the B26 when they are up to speed! Hard to make a high speed pass when they are hauling bellybutton as well, for me anyway.
Keep the speed up and attack from a couple thousand above them, trying to be in front of their flight path before starting run and make a vertical pass. Works for me. Nice hi speed arcing pass hard for them to get tracking shot from top turret. Hi speed lateral passes work quite well also, but usually takes me at least 2 or 3 passes doing that. Just make sure your speed is up. And like mentioned above, the Lanc doesn't have a bottom gun, and the only one with real puch on it is the tail .50 cals, the .303's don't seem to be to much to deal with. My experience anyway.
ts
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The key are : speed (around 350) the alt come frome the forward quarter and aim the root of the wing.
Il all the ingredient are here it should go without trouble.
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Bombers are popcorn.
I have never had one survive a single pass from me, unless he killed me before I could kill him. If I take my time to set up my attack I have NEVER failed to kill the bomber and live to land.
My kill death ratio against bombers is VERY heavily on my side.
You guys just need to learn how to attack bombers.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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I think the playablity as it is now regarding the relative lethalitys of buffs vs fighters is just fine.
I've done a lotta both.. killin buffs and gunning from 'em. Every tango is a toss up.. the edge goes to the buff on rear attacks; the edge to the fighter on highside frontal attacks.
Yah pays yer money; yah takes yer chance.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-15-2001).]
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Tac, the Ack IS accurate to 20k now..
Was flying h2h yesterday, couldn't get closer than 20k to field without missing a wing.. Downright deadly, first salvo - first hit and down the blackout evasive manouvering dogfighting yak goes from heavy aa fire..
In an arena with close enemy field I died every time I looped up in a dogfight.
Total of the arena: fighter kills 3
flak kills 6
It got to the point where I had to logoff and wait untill an arena with NO nearby enemy fields was available.. I don't even want to think about taking a field in Main..
Then again, the ack might be tuned down there. This new feature was introduced with the latest 1.05 patch and I've hated it.. It made no difference to my framerates, now I only get buggered by ack and my own gun leathality seems to vary from 0% to 100%..
Yesterday I spent my night pinging people with 3x20mm from straight 6 shot at 200 yard distance.. saw many flashes but not even flaps missing from planes. Frustrating, especially when I lost at least a wing every time I was pinged.. tail section, wing, pilot kill.. not even once I lost only a flap or aileron. Something has gone seriously wrong.
- MrSiD
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It is a simple matter of getting yourself mentally prepared to attack the buff, what I always do is try to imagine the other guy in his under where...so to help you guys out whenever you feel intimidated by a buff just picture this guy as the gunner that is shooting at you.
(http://www.uglypeople.com/uglymen/up-images/up-men-00394.jpg)
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-15-2001).]
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Wobble :-) Best post you've ever made, brought a smile to my face.
Although, looks like that guy is doing more than sitting there in his super sized diaper. Look at the expression on his face, appears to be an "Oh sh*t" expression. If that's the gunners I had to face, they'd be too busy trying to get that warm mess out of their extra large diapers to shoot at me and I'd have a free kill. Then again, if you got close enough to see a poor fella like that sitting in his tail turret looking at ya like that, I think I'd spin out laughing so hard and auger in myself. :-)
Works both ways I guess. Imagine him in his under wear, but if it's too damned funny, you're screwed. ;-)
-SW
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I was going to give a detailed account of playbalance, representation of the effectiveness of large bomber formations, and the greater use of JABO since beta, but since HTC has stated in the past they won't change the buff guns I'll say only this.
MY B26 OWNZ J00 ALL! PHEAR THE FORWARD 5 .50s!
:P
Can't wait till the F4U-1C is perked; the B-26 reign of terror begins!
Buff attacks are easy if you have patience (or a P38. Ever seen that episode of Star Trek TNG set with that Enterprise with the HUGE phaser that cuts through hulls? That's the P38 vs buffs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ). Every idiot does dead 6 attacks - I've news for you, this was considered suicidal in real life too. Deal with it!
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G'day all.
Just as an experiment, try this...
grab any one of the AH bombers offline, set the time to 12 o'clock, and while in level flight, jump in all the turrets and see if you can get the gunsight to centre on the sun.
Ya never know...ya might learn somethin' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S> Blue
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Actually most b17s that were shot down were shot down by planes coming up their six. The trick was to kill the tail gunner first, but gunners in AH are harder to kill than ammo bunkers and ammo bunkers don't shoot back. Yes the gerris allways tried to make the initial pass from 12oc high and break up the formation. But after that it was very difficult to regroup and time consuming to get in front of the bomber stream again . Compare how many gun cam films you,ve seen of b17s being shot down from head on to how many you've seen being shot up from the 6oc position .
I've been told that 50cals on buffs are no more powerfull than those on fighter planes . But how many times have we all killed fighter planes with 0.5 seconds of buff gunner fire . Furthermore you can fire a pistol freehand from an aircraft with more accuracy than you can fire a non-shoulderfired machine gun that is mounted onto a vibrating , moving aircraft .
[This message has been edited by Suave1 (edited 01-15-2001).]
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LLBM, I luv ya man, but you're all wet on this whine. Buffs can be killed, it just takes patience. A good buff pilot/gunnner is indeed a formidable opponent, but in an arena without massive bomber formations and handy escorts, that's the way it should be.
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I think the reason why we don't see bomber formations and escorts like in those other online games is because the buffs in AH don't need them .
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Heyas LL....
I fear buffs...having said that, if you want to kill one, remember three things...
1. No six approach
2. Stay hot
3. Be patient...again let me repeat...be patient.
Anything else, and it's a crapshoot. They are certainly harder to kill than they used to be...I suspect it's the change in gunnery that took place with the offering of 1.04.
Godspeed! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
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duma,
I am sure you've read about sturmgruppes? They would have 16 planes come dead six approach flying almost wingtip to wingtip. In AH that would mean the death of the whole formation - I don't mean the buffs though.
The armor these planes had when compared to to the normal versions of these planes does nothing to protect from the type of damages you die from when attacking an AH bomber, which are wings and stabs flying off.
// fats
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"3. Be patient...again let me repeat...be patient."
Heh. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I must concur,
dead 6 approaches on buffs has been hazardour to my health: furthermore, the 20 cal pings I've gotten have either been rubber bullets, or useless hits.
But I have had some luck of late with buff hunting- had one great kill of a lanc from a slightly elevated 2 oclock run, pinging at distance (+0.5k) with a 20 cal and rolling to the left. He disintegrated... but if you think about it, I was landing less shots into the engines and more into the wing roots and body. Lanc's are the easiest, bar none, but take the most ammo.
Getting above and trying for different deflection shots is definitely the way to go... just takes time.
*S* and regards,
Jay.
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Like I said I dont need tactics on how to approach line up and kill a buff. I've tried them all and all from WB's know who I am and how long I've been doing this. I think the Buffs hardness and armor are perfect. I DONT think the guns are right. Game play if BS in my mind as all the cards are loaded on the buffs side. If 8 50's all at conv hit you your frigging wing is coming off. Its not a maybe. 1 ping you MIGHT live. 2 Pings you dead. Pure roadkill. You dont stand a chance if they guy is good enough to hit the broadside of a barn. All he's got to do is spray and pray and your dead. So like I said buffs can come and go by me I'm staying away from them. Till the guns are fixed. If HT says he ain't fixing them, fine I wont ever hit a buff again.
LLB OUT!!!!!!!
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Works for me, LLBM. Guess that's one less person in the arena I have to worry about when I fly a buff. Not that it's going to stop the other 200 that frequently shoot my buff down on a regular basis.
The guys who are successful buff hunters have learned the correct approach angles, and it's both scary and interesting watching them setup the attack. It's definately an art form.
Suave, I disagree. If the buffs were made more vulnerable, I think that would lead to fewer people driving them, not more.
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Hi
I find that the Hispano or 30mm equipped planes can down a buff very easily (though Lancasters and Ju88s are tough birds). I tried a P51 last night, first time in awhile and I downed a P38 and two B26s. The last B26 did get me but only after I made a stupid mistake (he had a gunner on board!). I fly a lot of buffs and quite often a good approach will easily take a wing or vertical stabiliser off. When I'm in a B26 I actually like them to attack from the belly (rather than forward high or level) because you just bank hard 90-120 degrees and he falls right on your six. He 'might' get a shot in and he'll only damage you a lot if he's in a cannon plane. Having said that, as he's on your six you should be able to down him easy. I hate seeing the F4U!!
I have more problems going too fast when trying to shoot buffs down.... can be too easy to mistime your approach but when you time it right it's lethal!
As Ice said, patience is the key to downing a buff.
Regards
Nexx
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LL you just now figuring this out?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) Damn I learned that back before the beta ended.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I have no problems with attacking and killing a buff. I usually get overly impatient and make a 6 attack and get killed, but most of the times I do high speed passes from a HO or high angle approachs and have no problem killing them.
I do see a problem WITH the buff guns on the b17,b26 and TBM. And i'd like it corrected.
When a bomber needs one or 2 pings of .50 to kill a fighter there IS a serious problem there. Gameplay my arse. As I said above, if because of gameplay I have to resort to trick the gunner into switching guns so he cant shoot me (something that is quite idiotic since in RL all guns had its own human gunner) or dive at neck breaking speeds and HOPE that the buff gunner aint paying attention to me or that his aim is really crappy so that I can kill the lone buff then I dont see why I consider it a ww2 simulation. You are clearly "gaming" the game.
There is NO way a fighter will survive a pass on a buff if the buff gunner is paying attention to you. That is a fact. All the times ive been shot down in a buff have been due to the fighter twisting above and below my buff, staying out of sight or distracting me while his wingman flames my butt. Every time a lone fighter attacks my lone buff from a high speed angle you can bet your nuts that if I see him at d2.0 and aim my guns on him at d1.4 and start spraying, that fighter IS DEAD at the second ping.
Game the game or simulate ww2 attacks on a bomber? What are you guys paying for?
A few nights ago a group of 6 lancasters attacked our hq at 18k. They flew in formation. Their .303's are not single ping killing turbo.50cal's, but they are DEADLY when they are in a formation.
I wouldnt mind seeing OTTO with the same AI firing as the field ack. Just give the otto unlimited ammo, and let the human gunner take over the gun he wants. When the human gunner fires THEN he wastes that gun's ammo. This would allow formations of buffs to have a field-like AA protection and human gunners.
Perhaps HTC could give it a try in the test arena? I think this might work.
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I dont wanna hear about all you uber buff killers cuase I think your full of it. Ive tried every suggestion made to kill a damn buff and some of them work ...about 20% of the time. Not good enough odds for me. If you get one frigging ping from a buff gun thenyour getting hit by every 50 cal that can "see" your plane. Pure roadkill.
"Pure roadkill" about sums up all of these posts whining about buff lethality. HBlair beat me to the idea, but here are some numbers from tour 11...
* Wardog has 8 kills and has been killed 1 time against the B-17G.
* Wardog has 10 kills and has been killed 2 times against the B-26B.
* Wardog has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Ju 88.
* Wardog has 6 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Lancaster III.
26-4 vs Buffs.
* Hangtime has 10 kills and has been killed 5 times against the B-17G.
* Hangtime has 8 kills and has been killed 2 times against the B-26B.
* Hangtime has 4 kills and has been killed 2 times against the Ju 88.
* Hangtime has 7 kills and has been killed 2 times against the Lancaster III.
29-6 vs Buffs.
* Citabria has 11 kills and has been killed 0 times against the B-17G.
* Citabria has 25 kills and has been killed 4 times against the B-26B.
* Citabria has 12 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Ju 88.
* Citabria has 19 kills and has been killed 3 times against the Lancaster III.
67-8 vs Buffs.
And even me, the absolute crappiest AH pilot in the arena who is currently sporting a kill per death ratio of 0.4167...
* Gordo has 5 kills and has been killed 0 times against the B-17G (tour 11 & 12)
* Gordo has 10 kills and has been killed 4 times against the B-26B (tour 11 & 12)
* Gordo has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times against the Ju 88 (tour 11 & 12)
* Gordo has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times against the Lancaster III (tour 11 & 12)
17-4 vs buffs.
I guess not everyone is full of it if they say they don't have much of a problem with buffs. I don't have any tricks to dealing with them, only effective tactics. If you consistently get your bellybutton handed to you by buffs, it is your fault. Rethinking your tactics and working at them will be a lot more fruitful than coming here and whining for a completely unnecessary change. And who knows, you (the composite ever-whining you out there) might actually become as good as you think you are (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gordo
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 01-15-2001).]
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Being fairly new, I haven't figured out yet whether it's worth the risk and time to kill a buff vs just not bothering with them in favor of a good old furball. All the elitest types can point to there skill on the charts in numbers but it doesn't change LLB's point that is very much correct, Buff gun's are way too accurate. I don't think the excuse that "there aren't enough escorts" is a good one either, I always make it a point to escort buffs...for cods sake there is no easier way to kill fighters than to hang around a few thousand feet over and behind a buff lol.
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Seems like a fighter v. buff is a good fight, with no clear advantage for either. I respect buffs when I'm in a fighter, and respect fighters when I'm in a buff.
Of course, if you don't have the time or patience to set up a good attack, by all means...leave the buffs alone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 01-15-2001).]
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Originally posted by llbm_MOL:
........If 8 50's all at conv hit you your frigging wing is coming off.........
It sounds like the problem being described is not the guns by themselves, but the linked fire option, where all guns that can fire in the direction you are firing will go off.
I'm having a hard time figuring out if people in this thread are complaining about the turbolaser buff guns that shoot more accurately than the ones on fighters; lethality of the .50s; or the ability to link fire so multiple guns will fire at a target.
Personally, I have a difficult time taking down a buff. Especially if I hurry (which I usually do). Then again, I have a difficult time being a buff gunner, but I guess my aim just sucks either way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fury
<edit: yea, sucks is a good word, remind me to never look at stats again.
Tours 1-11:
vs. bombers 28k 29d
in bombers 29k 82d
my buff gunnery needs obvious help>
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 01-15-2001).]
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one problem is that you can´t fly as a fighter against a single gunner station of a buff. I mean if you attack 12 o´clock, the bottom turret shoots through the cockpit of the B17 at you, maybe the top turret also. A gunner can shoot through the wing and through the vertical stabilzer, too. So you always have at least 6-8 guns pointed at you in a fighter.
And sometimes i have the feeling that the bullet radius is bigger for the buff-guns, but this is my personal opinion, never did a test. But when you get multiple hits at 1.5k than something is wrong imo
niklas
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I didn't realize that your own guns could shoot through your own plane, that would certainly make a difference imho.
I did think that my buff guns could shoot through my buddy's buff (which I don't really like) instead of me killing my buddy or killing myself.
Fury
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Guys, this exact argument has raged in WB for years. At least with AH's system, a human must aim the guns. Sure, they are linked. But it was a "lesser of two evils" decision that Pyro and HT made. If they bring buffs defenses down to "historic' levels, then you will not see any more buff drivers in the arena. That you can bank on.
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I can tell that those B-17s are real fortresses in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Only time when I was in real danger to go down with my Fw190A-8 during my 270 kill streak, was when I attacked B-17 and he took my wingtip off and I took his.
I almost did fly straight into guns of another B-17 lower ahead when I couldnt control my plane enough..
At least with fighters you can avoid that guns head on situation when you attack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So, worst killer title goes for B-17 from that tour..
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all valid point in MHO on both sides. here is my take:
buff guns are hella destructive etc... but all this "i got killed at 1.4k" is dumb. the only way you can do this is if you fly, all dumbed up, in a straight line at or // to the buff. you do this, you deserve to get yer wings plucked.
and all those guys who said use strategy and annoy the buff to death> bing bing bing, you got it.. pick your kills like any other target and you wont die. make a pass then get the hell outta dodge. the whiny babies that say buff guns are way overmodelled are the guys who go all in on one pass, staring into the guns and hope they kill before they die themselves.
poopy pants mcgavin OUT!!!!
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I'd like to see the players talking about getting higher and diving on a buff do it on a 30+k buff. If you turn in a fighter you lose pretty significant alt. The buff (B17) can turn inside the fighter up there and not lose alt. Last buff I tried to get was over 32k and when I tried to get higher and ahead he simply turned into me as I was attempting to pass at a distance. The 17 was able to come nose on to me faster than I could turn the fighter.
The 50's on a buff are not the same as on the fighters. They are longer range and have higher lethality.
Mav
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If I am climbing up to reach a buff, its usually gonna be a bad run for me.. If I come across a lower buff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) he's mine. One short burst in dhog to outer engine of Lanc and down it goes. B17 aim fer the outer wing section. Damn b26... used to hit tail plane, not sure anymore...
Personally, I think for the most part buffs are pretty good. The weakspots they currently have are the thin line that keep balance IMO. Without them I'd be whining about em too.
AKskurj
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If a bomber is at 30,000+ feet, ignore him. The amount of time it took him to fly that mission wasn't even close to worth it. He could've caused much, MUCH more damage by doing a 20,000ft flight or by using jabo in a fighter. He could do 2 20,000ft flights and probably 5 jabo flights in the time it took to do the 30,000ft flight.
He has voluntarily removed himself from the game.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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The last I looked on tour 12 it had B17s with 2052 kills against being killed 2602 times.Thats a 4-5 ratio.What ratio should apply, 2 buff kills to 1 fighter kill ?
Most of the guys who posted had no problem killing me.The ones who say patience and high tactics are right.They get me doing a what I call a turret dance and lose their location.If you cut back on the buff guns any more than what they are,why bother buffing,who would fly in a death trap ?
Then there are us people who are new to interactive games like this and are new to flying any thing.We do not have your expertise.We envy you who have the talent and have the knowledge.To compete with you and stay in the game we need the help.As far as the guns go,some nights I can kill almost any thing thing that comes my way.Guns are lethal.Other nights it seems like I can't hit a barn door and get killed all night long.Guns suck.
In good faith
ET
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Popeye,
Try and setup a proper attack against a single bomber flying 35K+, while you are in a Fw 190.
Don't even have to be a Fw 190, almost any plane will do. If the buff pilot wants it can change headings so that you will have nothing else except low six approaches, and complete his bombing run once you are dead, out of fuel or out of ammo.
// fats
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Fats, yep that's a problem. But I don't think the solution is to neuter the buff guns. Rather, I'd like to see bombing accuracy toned down to make a 35K run a waste of time.
Personally, I won't fly a buff above 25K, or chase one above 30K.
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Originally posted by fats:
Popeye,
Try and setup a proper attack against a single bomber flying 35K+, while you are in a Fw 190.
Don't even have to be a Fw 190, almost any plane will do. If the buff pilot wants it can change headings so that you will have nothing else except low six approaches, and complete his bombing run once you are dead, out of fuel or out of ammo.
// fats
I've heard people complain about all these 35k buffs on the bulletin boards for a while. How many have you guys actually seen? Don't exagerate. I've seen all of maybe 4 or 5 since September of '99 (or whenever open beta started) Methinks a lot of the 15k-20k buffs get called 30k-35k after the attacking fighter gets killed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I've been in a formation where some dork was calling us 30k+ when we were actually at 22k.
Just some food for thought.
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Once again I don't care about your tactics. The guns on the Buffs should not be auto converged on the target. If they just point them all in the direction of the target not in auto-conv or have a way the buff pilot(JUST LIKE THE FIGHTER PILOT) has to set his guns convergence to a certain distance. Then it would make it even. The problem is that the guns auto converge at any distance the target is from them. Hence 1 ping is actually about 8 50's hitting you at perfect convergence. This is roadkill! Even the b29 guns didn't get perfect convergence. They should have more dispersion, period!
LLB OUT!!!!!!
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Originally posted by hblair:
I've heard people complain about all these 35k buffs on the bulletin boards for a while. How many have you guys actually seen? Don't exagerate. I've seen all of maybe 4 or 5 since September of '99 (or whenever open beta started) Methinks a lot of the 15k-20k buffs get called 30k-35k after the attacking fighter gets killed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I've been in a formation where some dork was calling us 30k+ when we were actually at 22k.
Just some food for thought.
EXACTLY!!! this is never a valid agrument, i have flown hundreds and hundreds (and also hundreds) of buff missions my alt was never even close to 30k let alone above it. i think i have seen one buff above 30k maybe two. both b26s,,nuff said
Gerome the Giraffe OUT!!!!!
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Originally posted by llbm_MOL:
The problem is that the guns auto converge at any distance the target is from them. Hence 1 ping is actually about 8 50's hitting you at perfect convergence. This is roadkill! Even the b29 guns didn't get perfect convergence. They should have more dispersion, period!
Erm, that's not correct.
HINT: in oder to converge on a target you have to a) know that target is b) know the distance. While Aces High has code for b) it has no code to work out what the hell you're shooting ac, at least as far as I know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You set convergence for bombers same as for any plane...
NB. The problem isn't too much accuracy ,but a nice shotgun type cone of fire making it easy to hit things. More dispersion wouldn't help, less might (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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Why bother chasin a 35k buff? he has just flown for over an hour to do damage to a base that will last no more than 30 mins. If he's planning on hitting your city or HQ.. 1 buff is hardly a threat. If he's at 35k by time u reach him he'll be empty.. Y bother?
Why even try give him a speedy return to the flight line to do it again? Lettim try land the thing, it will take him likely another 30 mins to do so.
AKskurj
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Buffs as targets for fighters are pretty poor food.. if what yer after is kills.
For the rest of us; engaging a buff is an evil necessity; something thats got to be 'done' when it's spotted on the way to it's target or over it's target.
Wanna improve your chances of success against a B17?? Stalk him till he goes on to his bombsight, or even better, force him off the target by keeping him on the guns and bag him when he trys to turn. This is when heavy bombers need cover and escorts the most.. on the target. In transit; they are very hard to get at if they travel in pairs or formations.
The medium buffs can be a more problematic than a heavy.. don't let the lighter armamanets fool yah. Watch out for 'ol facefull if you try to stalk a B26. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The chances of any buff surviving a paitent well positoned and executed fighter attack are next to nil.. likewize; a fighter pilot who's forced by circumstance or the the local tactical situation to attack from poor postion is likely to meet a sorry end.
War IS hell; yah know. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"
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Popeye,
Funny that they are implementing dispersion for guns and then have lazer bombs. It's not like there aren't any studies done how bombs fall...
hblair,
Not many. Same heading change stuff goes for lower alt bombers though. Impossible to set up HOs and such against an bomber unless they _want_ to be HOed. It's all waste of fuel to try down bombers, when I could barely spend all Fw 190 cannon ammo with full tank and a DT against fighters.
// fats