Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Andy Bush on August 02, 2000, 04:44:00 AM
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Want to try a little cooperative A2A? See the latest BnZ article in the Air Combat Corner at SimHQ.
AH screenshots were used extensively in the article.
This article gives you academic background on mutual support offensive tactics as well as suggesting ways to fly these in your favorite sim.
Andy
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can you provide URL?...
tks..
Ex
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http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom4/index.shtml (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom4/index.shtml)
Awesome article Andy !
Just one thing could the pics be set to open in a seperate window please ? everytime you hit the back button from one of the pics you're on top of the document and have to scroll down to where you were... ahh i guess that only applies to the Netscape i use at work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
DW6
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 08-02-2000).]
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http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom4/index.shtml (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom4/index.shtml)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Mitsu
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Ouch! Mitsu has been shot down by Duckwing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Mitsu
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SimHQ is getting better and better. Great work guys! Off to print to read later!
-Westy
(heee heee hee. I meant the above. But just a n elbow in your ribs kind of thing, just how is that AW(x) interview coming along. They promise it in "two (more) weeks"? You'd figure after making you wait three months they'd give you something with some meat and potatoes in it!)
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Very good article. We use your writings to better train and fight.
GATT
4°Stormo Caccia
"F.Baracca"
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/macchi2.gif)
(Courtesy of Lem)
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Duckwing, we tried doing the "shots open in a new window" thing once and got complaints about it. The easiest way to do it is RIGHT CLICK on the image and then select Open in New Window. I've gotten into the habit now, even with MSIE.
Westy, I don't know what the hold-up is, honestly. I send them an email every once in a while to remind them, and they still say it is coming. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) But thanks for your concern. LOL Someday we'll run it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com
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Does it really take lessons to learn how to gang bang. Does he have "bottom" printed on the soles of his shoes.
Now an artical on how to win a 1v2 or 3 engagement would be interesting.
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Originally posted by easymo:
Does it really take lessons to learn how to gang bang. Does he have "bottom" printed on the soles of his shoes.
Yes, I've been saved many times in 2v1 or 3v1 fights because they didn't use wing tactics. Many fights I should have died after the 1st turn, but manage to beat the odds because there was never an article like this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now an artical on how to win a 1v2 or 3 engagement would be interesting.
I too would love to see an article on this subject, heck I'd even go as far as to offer some tecniques that have saved my arse over the years... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Originally posted by easymo:
Does it really take lessons to learn how to gang bang. Does he have "bottom" printed on the soles of his shoes.
Well, I'm obviously biased about the article, but.....yeah, of course it takes lessons to learn this stuff, which is much more than a "gang bang." As Udie said, I've seen many "pairs" really screw up their attacks. Real-world combat crews spend hours upon hours upon hours working on pairs tactics....for good reason. I just finished "Wings of Fury," about jet combat since Vietnam, and I'd guess 75% of the encounters described required coordinated actions of a pair of fighters. Same was true in WWII. That's just talking about getting a kill.....I'm not even referring to real-life where a pair not coordinating turn into a flaming wreck.
One of the things I wish were different in most online flight sims, AH included, is a real lack of emphasis on pairs. I'm not the most experienced pilot, nor probably in the top 90% of the people who write here, but I can count the number of times I've been killed by an actively-coordinating pair on one hand. Most of my encounters here, in Warbirds, etc. have been 1 on 1, or if there are nearby fighters, a gaggle on 1.
For me, the real fun is with fighter pairs.....I wish there was some arena or some ladder or some system that could ensure you could log and on and consistently find pairs fights. I guess you can if you join a squadron or something, but I don't see it enough. 2v2 is really a hoot for me to experience, and is the essense of what air combat is about, in my mind. It's what raises games from the mentality of the loner-shooter-out-for-himself to a game where real-life coordination and practice pay off....that sounds wrong, but I can't think of a better way of saying it.
Maybe it's just me.
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John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com
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The artical was on 2v1. Why didnt you write one on 2v2? Not a flame. Just wondering.
Udie. Ill take you up on that. Ill toss my 2cents worth in.
As the bangee, you have to fight in a reactionary way. So I can only offer guidelines. First, never panic, and never, ever give up. This is what takes out most bangee,s. Second, attack them. They are going to come after you anyway. So you might as well start it.
The best way I can think of to give some idea of what im getting at. Would be to describe my las 1v3 fight.
They were more or less in a stright line. 2 close togeather. 3d a trailing dot. I had a lot of e. So i rolled between 1 and 2 As if to take out 1. I figured 2 would think he had an easy kill after I got 1. At the last second I rolled level uder 2 and pulled up hard/ I took off 2,s tail. This left me in a good positing for a nice gental loop. I saw out the top view that 1 had split S under me. tale view showed 3 (a P51) had closed to 9.o k. Plenty of time for an easy kill dropping down on 1. Unfortunatly 1 would not cooperate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). He started making some very good evasives. And by the time I killed him, I was low on ammo and out of E. Mr. 3 was on me by then and I figured I had no other option than to take the bastard with me. I set him up for an HO and he took the bait. I got lucky and got the kill. But he took off my wing tip and I had to ditch. So I guess this is not a good one to brag about, since I didnt land it. But it does demonstrate some of the things I mentioned.
OK. udie. Your turn.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 08-02-2000).]
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right, flying as a pair is fun, for sure. when fighting another pair. 2on1 is just not a challenge. I should add tho, that im not the best person to comment on these types of articles because *personally* flying air combat is more by feeling than thought, i dont really think of what move or whatever but rather its all like a big geometry puzzle. But anyways, i appreciate your hardwork for the community so <S> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Zigrat (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by easymo:
The artical was on 2v1. Why didnt you write one on 2v2? Not a flame. Just wondering.
The only article I could write on air to air combat as it relates to AH is "How to find a place to crash land" or "Skydiving: HALO or taking a casual ride down." Andy or one of our other writers are the guys to ask. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Besides, you wouldn't be able to cover 2v2 in an article...it would have to be a series. Just too broad a topic, IMHO.
I understand the article was about 2v1, not 2v2. The basics of pair combat is what excites me...that was my point.
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John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com
[This message has been edited by Spoons - SimHQ (edited 08-02-2000).]
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easymo
Regards your question on a 2v2 article...
Spoons is correct. The addition of another bandit adds another dimension to the complexity of multi-plane combat. Our articles in the Air Combat Corner are intended to help folks fly their sims...they are not meant to replace other RL texts.
Putting aside all the factors that would drive how a 2v2 is flown, let me summarize it this way.
Most 2v2s result in one of two outcomes:
1. One bandit is killed at the outset, and the subsequent maneuvering resembles a 2v1.
2. Or, the bandits split resulting in an eventual pair of 1v1s as the SF is forced to break formation with the EF to honor the other bandit.
In RL, the 2v2, like the 2v1, is a scripted training mission. The mission objectives are effective comms and flight path coordination.
These missions teach EF/SF coordination skills that then are applied to a multi-bogey environment. In a RL furball, it becomes very hard to maintain the cohesion of the two ship. To do so usually requires 'hit and separate' tactics...also known as taking 'shots of opportunity'. We taught that turning more than 45-90 degrees to take a shot should be avoided at all costs...it ate energy, made the pair predictable, and decreased effective lookout.
What if the pair disregarded this in a M/B fight? They tended to end up as singles fighting separate 1v1s...and getting shot as a result.
All of this is pretty advanced for the typical simmer. View effectiveness and comm limitations combine to degrade sim mutual support for anything more than a 2v1.
Shaw has some good RL info on 2v2s. If someone just has to know, they need to head over there. He says it better than I ever could.
Andy
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Originally posted by Spoons - SimHQ:
I wish there was some arena or some ladder or some system that could ensure you could log and on and consistently find pairs fights. I guess you can if you join a squadron or something, but I don't see it enough. 2v2 is really a hoot for me to experience, and is the essense of what air combat is about, in my mind. It's what raises games from the mentality of the loner-shooter-out-for-himself to a game where real-life coordination and practice pay off....that sounds wrong, but I can't think of a better way of saying it.
I'm currently recoding our current H2H Ladder and in the process adding both a 2 on 2 (Loose Deuce) and a Squad vs Squad Ladder. Check it out, I think you'll like it. http://www.mikeangel.com/ah/news.php (http://www.mikeangel.com/ah/news.php)
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Udie
The general idea behind a 1v2+ is to maneuver to force your opponents to split up. Your objective is to get the bandits in separate pieces of the sky. Then you may have a moment or two to make a move on one before the other can get around to being a threat.
For the single attacker, a couple of no-no's apply. Never get slow...never get tied up in a turning contest with one of the bandits. Now a few yes-yes's...stay fast, fly in straight lines as much as possible, honor any threat that is nose on and behind your 3/9 line...and when in doubt, get out of Dodge.
Against a well flown pair, a single is at serious risk.
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Udie
The general idea behind a 1v2+ is to maneuver to force your opponents to split up. Your objective is to get the bandits in separate pieces of the sky. Then you may have a moment or two to make a move on one before the other can get around to being a threat.
For the single attacker, a couple of no-no's apply. Never get slow...never get tied up in a turning contest with one of the bandits. Now a few yes-yes's...stay fast, fly in straight lines as much as possible, honor any threat that is nose on and behind your 3/9 line...and when in doubt, get out of Dodge.
Against a well flown pair, a single is at serious risk.
Andy
My fav response in a gangbang... take it low, the ground can be the best wingman a pilot could have :-).
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Originally posted by easymo:
The artical was on 2v1. Why didnt you write one on 2v2? Not a flame. Just wondering.
Udie. Ill take you up on that. Ill toss my 2cents worth in.
As the bangee, you have to fight in a reactionary way. So I can only offer guidelines. First, never panic, and never, ever give up. This is what takes out most bangee,s. Second, attack them. They are going to come after you anyway. So you might as well start it.
The best way I can think of to give some idea of what im getting at. Would be to describe my las 1v3 fight.
They were more or less in a stright line. 2 close togeather. 3d a trailing dot. I had a lot of e. So i rolled between 1 and 2 As if to take out 1. I figured 2 would think he had an easy kill after I got 1. At the last second I rolled level uder 2 and pulled up hard/ I took off 2,s tail. This left me in a good positing for a nice gental loop. I saw out the top view that 1 had split S under me. tale view showed 3 (a P51) had closed to 9.o k. Plenty of time for an easy kill dropping down on 1. Unfortunatly 1 would not cooperate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). He started making some very good evasives. And by the time I killed him, I was low on ammo and out of E. Mr. 3 was on me by then and I figured I had no other option than to take the bastard with me. I set him up for an HO and he took the bait. I got lucky and got the kill. But he took off my wing tip and I had to ditch. So I guess this is not a good one to brag about, since I didnt land it. But it does demonstrate some of the things I mentioned.
OK. udie. Your turn.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 08-02-2000).]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's been a while since I've had a 3v1 fight, the last one I remember it was me vs. 3 of the 13th TAS. (yeager, rude and I forget the 3rd, sorry). I was lucky enough to be at 21k and them at about 18k when I spotted them.
I knew who I was fighting because they had just killed a squadie of mine in that area, which is why I was headed that way. I just didnt know there were 3 of them, I thought there were 2. When I first saw their dots I was suprised to see them so high and to see 3 of them. I though of running away at first but then remembered that I was "hunting" them so I pressed the attack.
I knew my only hope was to keep my alt and speed advantage, I was at about 375 ias at the merge. I went pure vertical at the merge to save as much E as possible. 2 of them (al in p51's me in an 190a5) came up after me and the 3rd extended and circled. I kept the fight a climbing fight as long as I could, but the 51 is SOOOOO much better up there than the 190, so they were able to slowly gain on me.
This is when it got scarey for me, I knew I was about to die soon. As our energy states got closer to parity they started getting more aggressive. I used this to my advantage. They started attacking me one after another, with the 3rd still orbiting. They'd turn hard after each pass to try and get around while I was evading the wingman. This went on for about 2 or 3 minutes until I finaly worked it to a situation where I was making HO passes at each of them when they attacked. I finaly got yeager in a HO and down he went, but in doing this I had to fly straight a bit too long and gave his wingman very good shape on my 6.
I had to brake hard to dodge his attack and burned my energy, but he had been orbitting too far away from the fight so it was taking him a while to get to me. This gave me the time I needed to get into an E parity state w/ the 2nd 51. I then got a lucky snapshot on the 3rd as he entered the fight, leaving just the 2nd 51 and myself to duke it out. Rude is a good pilot and it was a damned good fight, but I finaly got him down on the deck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now this next statement is not ment to be an attack on Yeager or any 13th TAS, they are some of the best pilots online. BUT had they been using sound tactics I should have been dead within seconds of reaching energy parity at about 24k. I think what happened is they got over confident and didn't realy worry about wing tactics. After all what 3 p51's are scared of a 190 over 20k? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
That is one of my best fights EVER and the only thing that went wrong was I forgot to hit record b4 the merge.
That what your looking for easymo?
Udie
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Heck of a fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). In a gang bang. P51 is about the only plane in the game that has to really F up to lose. About all you can do is take front quarter shots on them. If they are smart they just peck you to death. BnZ you over and over.
I would say nik is your best bangee plane. If someone practices. They can turn with anything out there. Adn it has the acceleration when needed.
P51 is the banger,s best choice. Hands down. All they have to do is run away if you get the upper hand. If they avoid the HO at all costs, you never have a chance.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 08-02-2000).]
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Andy,
Thanks very much for a well written and most informative article. Great graphics and easy to follow with a very organized out line. We need more like that out of the training you reeived from "Uncle". Please bud, spread the wealth! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mav
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/mav13.jpg)
No Mercy Asked, None Given, Just pass the ammo
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-02-2000).]