Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on August 02, 2000, 11:30:00 AM
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Why not establish a default setup on the SEA that makes it possible to establish a Allied vs Axis arena with the existing resources??
Heluva nice facility just sittin there doin nothin for 160 hours outta every 168 hour week.
See the 'allied vs axis arena' thread.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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See my reply in the 3 questions thread.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Brzzzzzrrt.. not the same question!
Here's that other threads question and your answer:
>2)Is a HA under consideration?
Not on a full time basis. Additional arenas with the idea of full time participation are not viable with the current size of our player base. We have about 2 dozen CMs now with Vermillion chairing that group. They are currently in the process of getting organized and planning out a number of weekly events as well as scenarios. This is where these types of setups will be held.
As the SEA is just sittin there doin nothin for all but about 6 hours a week; why not estabilish a default setting for the SEA conducive to Allied vs Axis operations? That way when the CM's exit that arena after hosting a scenario or special event it's all ready to go.. no fuss; no muss.
Essentialy No risk psuedo HA trial arena.. we won't break the server. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Hmm... I *think* what Pyro is saying is not that there aren't enough players to have two arenas... but that with the player base the size it is, no encouragement should be made to split the existing base up into two arenas.
Erhm... that sounds wierd... lemme try this..
A small 20v20 in the SEA on a nightly basis would mean 40 less players in the MA. Perhaps there isn't the density in the MA right now to lose 40 players.
I love yer idea Hang... I totally wish we could do it. But I can also see Pyro's point. We gotsta get more bodies into AH.
And that's if I understood what Pyro is basically saying.. If not, well.. nevermind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Nash-
That is essentially the way I understand it.
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Right now the emphasis should be on having special events.
I am confident that *special events* will really start to take off in AH.
Yeager
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I like the idea too, but like said, the numbers probably don't make it viable, and can you imagine what a pain in the prettythang it would be for the CMs to clear the arena come scenario time? Even if they have the power to kick everyone out, I can just see the text buffer being filled with "WTF happened, I don't pay $30/mo for this", and "blah blah blah". I do look forward to a historical arena someday tho'.
I always thought of it as being an arena where you could have the super-duper realism mode with all the difficulty bells and whistles that people want, like no ammo counters, nasty sun glare, reduced/no icons, etc. The main arena would be a place for people who didn't want the added difficulty, and for newbies to start in without the learning curve being harder than it already is! Until then, the scenarios seem plenty fun to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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Originally posted by Nash:
Hmm... I *think* what Pyro is saying is not that there aren't enough players to have two arenas... but that with the player base the size it is, no encouragement should be made to split the existing base up into two arenas.
Hi Nash....
I agree, I think that's what he's saying as well, but I also disagree with his basic business premise.
It's flat rate, so who cares whether someone flies or not.
I haven't flown AH in over two weeks, albeit I have logged into the MA, looked around and left due to the same old fantasy MA environment, which forces me to fly and fight against planes of the same type I'm flying. I also have a short patience threshold (call me old and crotchety) for being mixed in with a whole bunch of new guys continually typing "what's this game all about". For me, it completely blows any kind of immersion into AH as a WWII air combat simulation. As a result of this, plus some other issues we've seen lately on-line on the BBS, I have given serious consideration to canceling my account on AH until (or if ever) someone in HTC realizes that multiple diverse arenas build a customer base, not necessarily restrict its growth. Scenarios or CM run events where I have to be someplace at a certain time and date, just don't fit well into the nature of my day job. I need the flexibility of being able to log into an arena on demand.
So, to get my virtual flight sim fix, I've actually been spending $2/hr flying the new WWII allies versus axis arena in WB, which is more of what I personally prefer as an environment setting. I've been having a great deal of fun and hope that they continue with the experiment as their numbers jumped dramatically when it came on-line.
A caveat......just because my personal needs are not being met with the current arena structure it doesn't invalidate HTC's marketing approach, except if over time they lose enough virtual pilots like me who decide that the generalized MA isn't their preference. If time drags on and they don't offer an arena as described, I do believe they will start to see a drain of members who want in essence what hangtime is asking for. I think his request is reasonable and if there was an arena here and now on AH, with settings geared to the WWII realism (allies versus axis), I wouldn't be typing this message contemplating resignation, but be flying AH instead of WB. Yes, the numbers probably would be smaller in both arenas, but overall I would bet the total subscription base would be higher. In business terms 2+2 could equal 5 with two arenas geared to different player skills and demographics. IMHO, I feel it's a shame that such a fine WWII based simulator with great plane/environment graphics, FM and gunnery modeling, plus a terrain editor coming on-line shortly, is wasted by only offering a single arena free-for-all approach. Even Quake and Unreal Tournament RPG on-line venues offer different environments for different tastes. Finally, it isn't that difficult to set up an arena that's already there and empty much of the time to fit this WWII profile.
Regards,
Badger
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[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 08-02-2000).]
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I see why there may be some hesitation from HTC, but how about 1 day a week! Call it something like, Firday Night Fantastic Historical Fun! (FNFHF) okay maybe not that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I find it difficult to attend the Events on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, and like Badger, I get pretty bored in the MA.
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Ayup Badger... Good point.
I guess it's a double edged sword for them though. If you split the player base into two groups, you get other people saying "I log on, have to fly a half hour to find somebody to fight....so screw it".
And yeah, currently I suppose they have to deal with people losing interest because of the done to death nature of the MA.
It's my opinion though that you can mess with different arena variants as much as you like, but never EVER mess with critical mass. If you do it's a pain to build that back up again. Slippery slope. So different arenas are a luxury you get if your player base can afford you that. If that isn't there, you get not one but two+ failed arenas.
I'm confident HTC would build new arenas if they felt they could. No Arena Conspiracy here <g>. But I don't think they have a choice right now. Hopefully they can channel some of their new influx of cash into marketing. Great sim... just need more people. With that will come viable alternatives to the MA.
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Originally posted by Camel:
I see why there may be some hesitation from HTC, but how about 1 day a week! Call it something like, Firday Night Fantastic Historical Fun! (FNFHF) okay maybe not that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I find it difficult to attend the Events on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, and like Badger, I get pretty bored in the MA.
Actually, the name hasn't been decided yet, but the concept is already slated to happen soon. Check the calendar http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/calendar/calendar.htm (http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/calendar/calendar.htm) and bookmark it, because you will have Snapshots, multi-frame scenarios, Tour of Duty, and whatever-it-is-we-call-the-weeknight-thing to choose from.
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I'm all for it, just not on a 24/7 basis. Once upon a time, I presided over a similar situation. I knew we didn't have the audience to keep the arena filled and that it would turn into a ghost town if it were always left open and once it turned into a ghost town, it would be even harder to get people to fly there. So I set it up where it was open two or three times a week during specified times. Because it ran at specified times, attendance was great and everybody had a lot of fun. But then it became the story of the goose and golden egg. Since some was good, it was surmised by some that more would be better. But not just a little more, the whole enchilada. I knew this would pretty much kill it and stated why that would be bad. Eventually the whining grew that I was just trying to keep that format down until one day(I must have been in a bad mood), I made a bad decision for both the players and the business and caved into the whining. It's not like I enjoyed being tied to having to manually operate that arena all the time.
So the arena went 24/7. The people were liberated at last. They now had freedom of choice. Or did they? While that arena used to enjoy large numbers of participants when it was open only during specific times, it now sat empty and proved a big task to try and get people to fly there. People would head to the main arena and do their utmost to recruit people to fly there, but with results far less than what it originally had.
Why was this? Because people play these games to play with and against other people. It's the overriding factor in where they go. Until such time that there are enough people logged in that you can choose from multiple arenas that are each loaded with people, the only practical choice is to go where everybody else is.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Thanks Kieren!
Just what I was looking for!
I am very grateful for the CM teams efforts, and will attend these events, Salute!
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With Flat rate there should be an Axis vs Allied arena, it doesn't cost anything to set up one. What difference does it make if the arena is populated by 20, 50 or 100?
I think its shortsighted to think the numbers can't support 2 arenas, instead I would be thinking about how an Axis/Allied arena could draw new pilots into the Sim.
The success of this arena in Warbirds should of opened some eyes, its what many historical oriented virtual pilots have been looking for. Its not perfect, but its much better then the free for all type arenas.
However, if Scenarios and events that feature Axis vs Allied are added revenue generators for AH then I can understand why it would not be set up as a standard arena.
You don't need CMs to monitor such an arena, the only issue I see is the limited plane set, but even with what there is you could make a nice late war set-up.
Ram1
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OK, so tell me. What's to keep you from going in there right now and flying axis and allies or any other setup you want?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Originally posted by Ram1:
I think its shortsighted to think the numbers can't support 2 arenas, instead I would be thinking about how an Axis/Allied arena could draw new pilots into the Sim.
The success of this arena in Warbirds should of opened some eyes, its what many historical oriented virtual pilots have been looking for. Its not perfect, but its much better then the free for all type arenas.
Actually, it would shortsighted to describe the new WarBirds arena as a success just yet. There's a good quote in the movie Pulp Fiction about celebrating success before you've actually succeeded. Give it two or three months and then come back and punt this topic.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Hi Pyro.....
You make some excellent historical points. <Salute>
We've been into this discussion on our business focus group under one of our mandated topics of "Product packaging, arena and player pricing options."
I commented there that "Perhaps it simply means that even if one likes AH for its program merits, it isn't the product I should be flying to meet my own personal entertainment needs. Whereas, WB is certainly not the current technology state program I want to fly, but I do find it enjoyable from an immersion and entertainment perspective. There's a business moral here someplace that these on-line game companies should get out of these kinds of discussions when they are designing their products."
It could be as simple as allowing time and maturity to build enough critical mass to justify separation of demographic interests by arena. After all, HTC has just gone through it's very first corporate anniversary and the actual product has only been in production code for approximately seven months. It does feel though like I've been given a Formula One car and then told that I'll be living in downtown Tokyo as a place to drive it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I used to train with a bunch of guys who wore an insignia that said "Who Dares Wins". I guess I've always believed that it is better to constantly engage in new and even repeated risks in business product development, as opposed to reflecting on the past as a bell weather indicator of what will happen in the future if one tries something over again in a different time and place. History doesn't necessarily repeat itself. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Best of luck.
Regards,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Actually, it would shortsighted to describe the new WarBirds arena as a success just yet. There's a good quote in the movie Pulp Fiction about celebrating success before you've actually succeeded. Give it two or three months and then come back and punt this topic.
In my best Arnold impersonation
"I'll be back" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ram1
[This message has been edited by Ram1 (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Sure ill agree that the player base might be an bit to small for an axies vs allied arena now...
But comparing the HA in WB to an eventual Axis vs Allies arena here? not much similarities there...
We got flatrate here + the zoom capability for an non icon environment (if it was gonna be no icons).
"OK, so tell me. What's to keep you from going in there right now and flying axis and allies or any other setup you want?"
The arena needs to say "Axis vs Allies" or something similar to get people in to it. Many people dont even know what "Special Events Arena" are for.. in short we need an describing name for such an arena to draw an crowd...
Well also if i go in there right now, the fields would not be set up for axis vs allies right?
So one of the reasons why we who are fed up with the fantasy arena concept, dont get this second arena is because we have to entertain the ones who still thinks the fantasy arena are fun?
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Good points, Pyro. I recall the circumstances you describe.
I don't have a solution.. just a suggestion.
On peak hours; with more than 100 people on main; my connects get screwed with micro warping, serverlag, textlag, and the disco situation gets critical. I see and talk to many others having the same issues... and it seems relative to server loading. Regardless of the reason.. it seems that more than 80-100 people get on the Main Arena server; conditions in the main get dismal.
This happens virtually every friday and saturday night; and most sunday nights till about 2:00am Eastern.
Why not get the SEA configured for allied/axis operations on a trial basis on these three days?? It'll take some of the overstocked Main Arena pilots into SEA; and really; the SEA will probably only have 20-25 pilots in it; making the MAIN a pleasure to fly in agagin.
Just a thought.. and thanks all for your considered replys.
Hang
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Hi all,
Sorry Pyro but I have to disagree with ya on the HA in WB. Yes it was full when you had it only a couple of days a week and empty when it went 24/7. The reason however is very plain to me and others and has been (sorry raml) ignored by the folks that run it.
The problem with the HA is the icon settings. Noone wants to fly all over hell looking for a fight and then when they find a con blow all their alt and position only to find they are attacking a friendly. The HA is empty because it is just to much of a pain in the ass. Additionally with the issues of a lot of the LW plane set in WB it's very hard to get a good showing by the LW.
As for the WWII arena, or whatever it's called now in WB. Sorry again pyro, but it's going to kill the MA now and forever. All the great features of the HA without the icon hassles. Especially with Sick's generations scheme in place, the only possible thing I could see hurting the WWII arena in WB is still the disparity in AC performance issues, both in FM and fire power between the Axis and Allied aircraft, especially in the late war era.
I could see the arguement that AH doesn't have the player base to support two full time arenas right now, (don't think any sim ever will. People will fly where everyone else is flying) so just toejamcan the MA and set up a Axis vs Allies arena and call it good.
OK, so tell me. What's to keep you from going in there right now and flying axis and allies or any other setup you want?
Because like you said with the MA already established people will gravitate to the arena with the people already in it. I submit to you that why not this? Dump the arenas (kick everyone out) set the Main to Allied to Axis, make it the default log in arena and set the SEA to the current MA setting and see how many people move to the SEA.
Pyro, you know I support you guys at HTC 100% and think your doing a great job with a great sim. But at the same time I think the time has come to break out of the old mold of the MA and move to a more historical environment.
Sharky
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Heh, being a European, there are often not more than 30 guys online. 30 seems minimum for fun.
I've still managed to find fights. Some of the *best* fights have been when only 30 people have been online.
Why is this? Well, two forces take off, meet, tangle and that's it. No reinforcements, no person vulching in as the figh is just about over, only to be vulched in turn. Or at least not to the extent that it happens when 100+ players are online. Also the reason I like the SEA; concentrated battles between group, not individuals.
But, in general, the more the merrier.
HT will give us an historical arena with time, I have no doubt. And, SEA is really kicking off now.
I'll give HTC time. They've come so far in such a short time that they've deserved it.
If they only could look into or reply to my 109 "prop drag side effects" question (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Wow! great discussion!
It is refreshing to see the game developer active in discussions on the bbs. S! Pyro.
I re-opened my warbirds account to fly the new setup. I am enjoying it, more so than flying aces high, even though aces high is a better product.
I am considering closing my aces high acount. I had been waiting and hoping that a historical arena would be set up, but it looks like that will not be the case.
I realize that there are special events. But I prefer to fly in a historical type arena in an informal manner, when I want, as opposed to having to be there at a set time and being assigned a specific task.
Just my 2 cents ($29.95/ month actually)
gospel
[This message has been edited by gospel (edited 08-03-2000).]
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This whole discussion would be moot if AH(or any other online sim) had started from day one with the main arena configured as an "Axis vs. Allies" arena, just like the real WW2 was configured.
To this day, I fail to understand why the fantasy "Spitfire vs. Mustang vs. Corsair" setup was selected to represent a war in which none of that existed.
Furthermore, I find it interesting that those who prefer historical matchups are considered "heretics", when in fact all we want to do is be true to history.
<shrug>Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by banana:
To this day, I fail to understand why the fantasy "Spitfire vs. Mustang vs. Corsair" setup was selected to represent a war in which none of that existed.
I think the reason is so that you don't have to switch countries to fly a certain plane type. Could you imagine the hell all the squads would go through? Someone's flying LW in a Axis vs Allied arena setup, then another squad mate comes on and he wants to fly a Spitfire. Well, now that's no problem if either one switches to fly with the other... BUT we'd still need one of those country switching timers so the ever-so-common numbnutz that love to switch sides every few minutes to figure out where a big raid is going and then go spoil it don't fudge the game. So, you've got a team mate on LW, and a guy on allied in the same squad. The LW guy switches allied, and he flies two or three sorties with his squad mate, then his squad mate leaves. He wants to go back to LW, OOPS!, he's on a team switching timer and still has 30minute to an hour to go. Now he's got two choices, log off, or fly allied(which he didn't want to do in the first place) for 30mins to an hour.... Well in an hour he has to go to the bar and get blitzed with his buddies. There goes his LW fun for the night. :-( Anyway, I *BELIEVE* that's where the setup came from. AW pioneered it I think, and it was highly successful.. so why dump a successful setup? CK/WB followed suit and when the same guys that created CK/WB experienced first hand how well it worked, they recreated it here.
Both a ETO Axis vs allied and PTO axis vs allied theatre would kick booty, but I like the MA too. It's a place to go to get your kicks. Besides, I think flying this "fantasy" setup as you described it, is very fun. It also leaves you feeling "I wish there was more". Then you get a special event and *BAM* it's like doing ecstasy after you've spent all your time doing a depressent. :-)
That's the best analogy I can figger out. :-)
Just one thing to think about.. Today we have an MA, tommorrow that MA may become MA Axis vs allied style, but what about next week? Will we beg for a one life to live Axis vs Allied MA? "someone just raped your sorry butt without ky jelly, you must log off for 3 hours before you can fly again!" Extreme, but it's very possible. :-)
*Digs around for his kevlar flame resistant suit*
-SW
AKSeaWulfe+
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I see your point, AKSeawulfe, and it would help me to understand this even more if someone can show me an example of an online sim that started out with an "Axis vs. Allies" setup, and failed.
Is this what happened to AW? Was it a failure with historical matchups, so someone came up with the "Fantasy" setup(I apologize for using the term "fantasy", but I don't know what else to call it), and that was a sudden success?
If so, well...then I guess I'm in the minority. If not, then it has never been tried before as a historical matchup from the beginning.
If the latter is true, then WW2OL will be the first real litmus test on whether the majority of the people really want to re-create history, or whether they merely want to use historical airplanes in an "anything goes" arena.
My whole point is that had HTC decided to start AH right off the bat as an Axis vs. Allies type main arena, it would still be the same success story that it has become now. In fact, I dare say that all those people flying WB's WW2 arena right now might have been HTC customers within a few weeks of going live, even such famous nay-sayers as "Mr. Aces Hobbled" Stiglr.
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No sim has started out with a axis vs allied arena. But if it did, who's to say you we wouldn't be in the same position we are right now... asking HTC for a new arena because we are bored of the old. Not to mention, we don't have quite the aircraft we'd need for a axis vs allied arena. N1Ks and Zeros vs F4Us, P51s, P38s and Jugs?(not many P51s or Jugs flew in the pacific as P38s or F4Us.. BUT they flew there) Then we have Fw190A8s, Fw-190A5s, Bf-109series, but no bombers and no plane(Ju52) to capture fields with, against P51s, P38s, Jugs, Spitfires, La5s, Yaks, B17s, B26s and allies have two forms of troop transport.
So, still want that there axis vs allied arena right now, today, yesterday? :-)
I just think unless you are going to be doing pure dogfights in that arena, the germans and japs would be SOL once they start losing territory. :-)
-SW
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"Is this what happened to AW? Was it a failure with historical matchups.."
A major problem was with the Axis not having a good heavy bomber to compete in the land grab "fest". And than later on the Allies did not have a good weapon (actually the online pilots had a lack of ability) to combat the ME-262. The REAL reason it was such a hogwash was it was catered to the relaxed realism crowd who are predominately "gamers." The atmosphere and over all attitude was the equivalent of "The Banana Splits GO Europe!" When the B17s or the ME-262's were finally limited to a certain number per day as a comptimise some of the "hAxoR cOolDuDeZ" decided to have a member of their "squat" change coutnry sides and purposely auger the B17s or ME-262's to remove them from service. Stakcing the deck in favour of the other side. And in AW you can change you online handle so they would do it "incognito."
Honestly? The Axis need the ME-264 heavy "Amerika" bomber or the HE-177/277 to compete with the B17, B24 or Lancaster. You can forget bringing the B-29 to an Axis-Allies arena unless you give the Axis the "Shinden" or TA-152.
-Westy
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So, still want that there axis vs allied arena right now, today, yesterday? :-)
Well, I would have preferred it on day one when AH went live. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As far as your plane comparison argument, I'm sure HTC would've altered which planes were created to ensure some form of equity, had there been an Axis vs. Allies setup initially.
I agree SW, nobody knows if we would be in the same boat right now had they started with Axis vs. Allies. Sure would've been an interesting gamble, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Just for the record, I'm not arguing against an Axis vs Allied arena, just offering opinions on why it would or would not be possible to create now. Also why HTC went with the fantasy main arena. I agree banana, wouldn't know unless they made it and wouldn't know how it would of been unless they had done it. Unfortunately they didn't do it, so we are only left with pondering it's success and entertainment value if they make it. It would be awesome, but I think some things would need to be slightly altered to make it more enjoyable than simply an MA with specific plane types per side. Icons ranges being a huge factor(reduce them like they said in another thread with different stages), then add more targets that require missions to take them out, etc.
Anyway, we're stuck with what we got right now so lets make the best of it.. nicely created scenarios! :-)
-SW
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Hello everyone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nice discussion going on here .
Pyro, what if you opened a Allied vs. Axis Arena on the weekends? Because of the flat rate and better features, it could be a thing of beauty. Also, the weekends could give more European guys time to fly with those of us in the States.
I understand you need to concentrate your player base. However, perhaps using an Allied vs Axis setup on Friday/Sat/Sun could be an excellent weekend draw.
Man.. Mission planner, developing ground game, excellent planes... it could somthing special (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-=Silo=-
AVG "Flying Tigers"
**WoOF!**
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Sharky, you're comparing two different things. While I agree that the HA would have been more popular with different icon settings, the point is that with the same settings, the arena flourished on a limited basis and floundered on a full-time basis.
The one thing I do find interesting in the Axis/Allies setup is why some people think it will be less boring. It may not be boring when it's new and different, but if you think having to fight the exact same few matchups day after day isn't going to get boring, I think that's naive.
Also, some people consider that setup a success in WB because it moved people from one arena to another. That's not success though, real success will manifest itself in the important numbers if it proves to be more than just a temporary change of pace. That's why I say punt this back up in two or three months.
Another game with this setup is FA but they're in a much better position to do it. In their case, they have enough people that they can add that arena and have it be added value, not just pleasing some at the expense of others.
banana, I do enjoy what-if matchups. I don't look to the main arena as much semblance to historical combat regardless of what the matchups are as that's just one factor among many others that can't be succesfully duplicated IMO. I find books like Brown's "Duels in the Sky" interesting. I like being able to compete with someone on equal ground as well. I'm also a history and aviation nut. On the flip side, I also like historical matchups too and know they have a big place in the game.
I've never seen a game where design decisions were not criticized. That's an inevitability because everyone has different tastes and you can't make something that pleases everyone. Design decisions aren't just made on what you like and dislike though. You can like everything and want to do it but that doesn't make it feasible. It's all a matter of weighing pros and cons and taking the best course of action that you can.
With that in mind, try this. Put yourself in the mindset that you have to sink all your money and effort into making this succeed and then take a look back at our development and tell me what you would've done if it were up to you. What decisions would you have made on what features and planes you would implement? Keep the work level comparable to what we've done and follow our development timeline.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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I don't have a WB account anymore, so I won't comment on that.
I really prefer to fly historical matchups, but without the old WB no-icon HA setup. The icon ranges in MA are good. And as Pyro said, I really don't want to fly the Spit IX vs. the 190A5 ALL WEEK.
I didn't get enough advance warning on last weekend's Operation Overlord matchup, but a couple Pigs showed up and said turnout was a big disappointment.
So, I guess what I would like to see is the equivalent of WB's Fletchman show up. Somebody to run weekly organized events. Wed night, Friday and Sat nights. And have a European one for those hours, and an Asian one as well.
Now, having suggested it, I'm going to say I'm sure not to go volunteer. It's a LOT of thankless work, and you get a lot of squeaking as payment. I've talked to Flet and Snak and a lot of CMs, who will go on and on about how much thankless work it is. You may get an award at the Con, but for me and alot of others, I don't have the time. I just want to play different what-ifs every week that are historic, and want somebody to set it up for me.
If I could retire and had several million, I would do it, and offer to pay 1 month free to the top 3 buffers for those scenarios. That would encourage buffing. But, unfortunately I am up to my neck in work, and am not a millionare.
We need an Angel CM, like HTC's recent Angel Investors. :-)
XX
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Dosequis, as of a couple of weeks ago, there is a full compliment of Aces High CM's.
And before that there was a volunteer group that performed that function.
The Scenario Corp runs two Snapshots a week (as an ex-WB's pilot you may think of them as SLs) one during US/Euro timeslots and the other in Japan/Oz timeslots.
As of this week, we are running an event (unamed at this point) for 4 hours on a weekend night that is a historical Axis vs Allied setup, similar in concept to AW's Warnight or WB's Weekend Warrior. This weeks was the first, and we didn't have time to advertise heavily, but after the cries of "WE WANT A AXIS vs ALLIES ARENA" we decided to go ahead with the concept ahead of schedule.
And this doesn't even count our Armor Events and some other things we have done periodically.
If demand goes up, we will expand our current program to include more dates/times. But right now we average about 25-30 players per event.
The Events are there, its up to the players to use them.
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Vermillion
Senior CM, Aces High Scenario Corps
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 08-07-2000).]
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To further what Verm said, I wouldn't read too much into the light participation. There are still things that we need to get into place like event advertising and a section of our website for events. That will be happening soon, but the important thing is that the ball is rolling.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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With that in mind, try this. Put yourself in the mindset that you have to sink all your money and effort into making this succeed and then take a look back at our development and tell me what you would've done if it were up to you. What decisions would you have made on what features and planes you would implement? Keep the work level comparable to what we've done and follow our development timeline.
Well, that's a daunting task for me, because my expertise is not in game development, it's LAN's and WAN's and some trumpet playing, too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But, since you asked, here's my best shot:
If I were Pyro and HT, coming off that wonderful experience of being bought by IMOL<insert shudder here>, I would've conceived AH thusly:
I would've conceived AH as an online SWOTL to begin with, complete with a planeset starting at late 1945(or even early 1946). Some of the initial planes would have been:
P-51K
ME-262
Spitfire XIV
DO-337
P-80D
P-47N
F8F
Ki-84
FW-190D-9
BF-109K-4
Yak-3
Tempest
That would be the initial planeset. No bombers, no strat. Just pure, unadulterated late/post WW2 dogfighting, with only two countries...Allied and Axis.
My next version(s) would be dedicated to creating multiple layers of strategic(oil fields, cities, ports) and tactical(railyards, bridges, truck/train/ship convoys) targets, along with a new type of "main objective"(including, but not exclusive to, airfield capture). The following bombers or attack aircraft would have to be released within these same versions:
B-29
HE-229
A-26
JU-88A4
This, obviously, would take a long time to implement, and would probably bring us well into the second year(to be done fairly completely, anyway).
After this setup was established and had some time to shake the bugs out of the strategy model, I'd work on "completing" the late/post war planeset, being careful to balance aircraft for both Allied & Axis sides.
Then, I'd continue on and start going backwards in time and start filling out the mid-war, then early-war planeset.
In order to do this, I would decide not to include ground warfare until at least after the strategy system is in place(which would, of course, take into account that there indeed would be ground units in the game, eventually).
Well, that's my overall design for AH if I were Pyro & HT. I'm sure the things I've mentioned would require more time than AH has currently been in development, but I was taking that into consideration.
I can't prove that this design would've worked as conceived, or that it would generate substantial revenue, but it might. nobody has tried it.
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-07-2000).]
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You missed some of the point banana would you personaly stake a million on your listing?
Or is it just an idea you would like to see if it would work?
HiTech
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Ok, I get the point. Sorry, wasn't trying to be flippant about this.
It's your game and your risk. I'm just one customer expressing my opinion of what I'd personally like to see AH become. In the end, I'll either remain a customer or end up spending my money elsewhere.
That's the logical, business part of me speaking. The passionate, aviation lover in me is the one you saw posting above about things that would be nice to see eventually in AH.
It's not my intent to second guess or criticize you guys. I just like to debate about things I have a passion for. And, for as long as you're willing to tolerate my ramblings, I'd like to continue to congratulate you when you do great things, and point out some places for improvement.
Hope I'm not being too big of a pain in the keester, guys. I respect you and your work.
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-07-2000).]
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Not a pain at all banana and I wasn't trying to be flipent.
Just wan't to empisize the differance between wanting to try somthing and staking somthing on it. I.E. it's very easy to say well lets give this or that a try when you have nothing at stake. You look at things very differntly when you have your livly hood riding on it.
And that's pretty much what pyro was asking for look at it from not just what I wan't to play but also from the point what will keep the company growing.
HiTech
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Hi guys, I've been an occasional lurker here (still playing WB after all these years), and thought I'd drop in on this thread. I have to say, that although I'm the biggest reality/strat potato going, I can't argue with anything you've said. Given the responsibility of starting the business up from scratch and woo prospective customers, I can't say I would have done things too much different (interesting plane choices wink,wink, nudge, nudge).
I would like to ask however, that assuming you reach a certain level of customers do you have a vision for how the gameplay can possibly evolve for those players looking for a little more than an MA experience?(outside of SEA type events).
I would also say that although I LIKE the WW2 arena in WB, I would not want to see the MA die completely, variety being the spice of life and all that. BTW, Thanks for engaging us in this thread.
Lugnut
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banana, the part about succeeding or failing wasn't my only point but that's certainly the final factor as you have no longer have to make any decisions if you're out of business. Our decisions are also weighed with a lot of information that is not available to a speculative outsider. If this business was failing, then we'd have to look at what we're doing as clearly wrong, but that's not the case. Some people seem to have a pretty big bone to pick with us because we don't share their vision of what we should do(I don't mean you btw). I suppose they don't like the fact that their favorite sports teams don't confer with them on drafts and trades either even though they may be season ticket holders. <shrug>
Anyway, back to what you would do. First of all, try to imagine how people would react to your scenario if this is what we did. Would this make everyone happy? Do you think this would make more people happy? Would those people be happy for long or get bored even quicker? Would I just be having this conversation with somebody else who thinks we should have done it the way we did in reality?
On more specific issues, look at the planes you've selected. Is it fair? Does it bring parity, or is there enough of a mismatch to it that makes one side very unpopular to fly? What would you do if you encountered a mismatch that you didn't see coming? How would you introduce these planes? The order in which they were introduced would become critical and they would have to always be introduced evenly between the sides.
Other issues would be how you would handle a large scale two sided war from becoming a huge constant furball in one location? Would delaying all other aspects of the game except furballing for over a year be able to provide you with enough customers and cash flow to keep you going? Or would you have to get more cash to keep the company afloat, thereby diluting your ownership or even have to forfeit controlling interest in your company. What if you couldn't get more money and all your hard-earned money and effort went poof? How would those issues affect your decision making?
I mention this stuff just because it is necessary to consider. It's great that people tell us what they want to see because we can often implement those things. Other things we can't, because we can't be all things to all people and are smart enough to know that. But I do get a kick out of some of the pundits we have out there. I really have no idea what their major malfunction is, but it's probably something I can't pronounce. I love the we don't listen to our players because we don't implement every suggestion(read theirs) that is given us and when players suggestions (read not theirs) are implemented, it's because we're pandering. That stuff is priceless. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations