Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: straffo on May 13, 2003, 08:05:44 AM
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Even if I was disagreing strongly (and even if I still disagree) with some US guys here.
I won't mean I'm supporting this kind of act :
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030513/wl_mideast_afp/saudi_blasts_030513120942&e=1
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/030513/3/36yvw.html
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Sorry Straffo;
While I am sure your condolences are well meaning, they are, at best, hollow lip service. You see, what America has learned is that there is no middle ground. There is no safe route. There is no half way. There is no containment. There is no appeasment.
We, as a nation, are against terrorism in all instances and are willing to do whatever is necessary to wipe these putrid scum off the face of the earth. As our W said, you are either with us, or with the terrorists. If you (not meaning you Straffo) are with the terrorists, in any way shape or form, that means you support our enemy. If you support our enemy, you become our enemy. Our enemies will be eradicated.
So, while I appreciate your sentiment, what would be more appreciated is solid international support and real assistance in the war on terrorism. We, all of us in the free world, have to eliminate this scurge lest we eventually be eliminated!
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Sorry Straffo;
While I am sure your condolences are well meaning, they are, at best, hollow lip service. You see, what America has learned is that there is no middle ground. There is no safe route. There is no half way. There is no containment. There is no appeasment.
We, as a nation, are against terrorism in all instances and are willing to do whatever is necessary to wipe these putrid scum off the face of the earth. As our W said, you are either with us, or with the terrorists. If you (not meaning you Straffo) are with the terrorists, in any way shape or form, that means you support our enemy. If you support our enemy, you become our enemy. Our enemies will be eradicated.
So, while I appreciate your sentiment, what would be more appreciated is solid international support and real assistance in the war on terrorism. We, all of us in the free world, have to eliminate this scurge lest we eventually be eliminated!
Amen
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1st off syz...the french have been dealing with terrorism LONG before you ever did...and they still are.
2nd your friend Straffo is extending a hand in friendship.....and you say its hollow.....at least he had the galls to step forward.
3rd your appeasement comment kinda sucks......lets take Saudi Arabia for instance......the have a very very bad human rights record...the teach hate the jews religious school...they spawn freaks that fly big jets into buildings.......yet since they are your biggest oil friend....trust me...appeasement was part of the process when you found out 15 where Saudi's.
blablabla so on so forth.....:cool:
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Originally posted by SLO
1st off syz...the french have been dealing with terrorism LONG before you ever did...and they still are.
2nd your friend Straffo is extending a hand in friendship.....and you say its hollow.....at least he had the galls to step forward.
3rd your appeasement comment kinda sucks......lets take Saudi Arabia for instance......the have a very very bad human rights record...the teach hate the jews religious school...they spawn freaks that fly big jets into buildings.......yet since they are your biggest oil friend....trust me...appeasement was part of the process when you found out 15 where Saudi's.
blablabla so on so forth.....:cool:
Slo, don't be so Slo witted. I wasn't slamming Straffo. I said I appreciated his sentiments but, especially after what happened last night in Saudi Arabia, we, the world, and that even includes you and yours Slo, don't need condolences. We need to go kill the m#ther f#ckers. Plain and simple. :D
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ya can't kill em all bud.......even though I kinda agree with ya 1000%.
they will APPEASE your sentiments...trust me....they'll say"my American friend....5 cents a barrel instead of 8":D
all will be forgotten wery wery quickly:p
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We need to go kill the m#ther f#ckers. Plain and simple.
I agree. It's working wonders for Israel. The Palestinian extremists don't attack as often anymore and they certainly don't seem to have any grass root support.
In fact, I can't remember the last time someone strapped explosives to their body and decided to kill dozens of women and children. But then I have a very short memory span - about a week. Which is very convenient in this particular case.
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Syzygyone I don't think I able to understand your post fully as you know I'm not a native english speaker and I'm unsure I'll get all the subtilities.
But be sure on my individual level I NEVER supported any form of terrorism.
@SLO j'ai essayé de traduire le post de Syzygyone mais je ne suis pas sur de le comprendre correctement et je ne crois pas que ce soit le le moment de démarrer une polémique.
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Straffo.
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Originally posted by straffo
Syzygyone I don't think I able to understand your post fully as you know I'm not a native english speaker and I'm unsure I'll get all the subtilities.
But be sure on my individual level I NEVER supported any form of terrorism.
@SLO j'ai essayé de traduire le post de Syzygyone mais je ne suis pas sur de le comprendre correctement et je ne crois pas que ce soit le le moment de démarrer une polémique.
Actually Straffo, your english is pretty good. I do not deal in subtleties so there are none to read. I don't for a second suggest that you have ever supported terrorism. All I am saying is that all the wailing and nashing of teeth isn't going to stop terrorism. It's a WORLD WIDE problem and it needs WORLD WIDE cooperation to wipe it out.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I agree. It's working wonders for Israel. The Palestinian extremists don't attack as often anymore and they certainly don't seem to have any grass root support.
In fact, I can't remember the last time someone strapped explosives to their body and decided to kill dozens of women and children. But then I have a very short memory span - about a week. Which is very convenient in this particular case.
Dowding = Neville Chamberlain = Appeasement = Death to the appeaser! Get a clue!:eek:
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il apprecie le sentiment que tu lui a transmis....mes sans fondement selon lui.....il dit qu'il sera mieux de faire quelque chose de tangible comme les supporter contre le terrorism.....il dit qu'il sera temps de vraiment les mettre sur la table ces fanatique musulmans.....en autre mots....les confronter ensembles.
il ne te descend pas du tous.....excuse mon francais mon ami.....mes mon education ces fait en anglais :D
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Originally posted by SLO
il apprecie le sentiment que tu lui a transmis....mes sans fondement selon lui.....il dit qu'il sera mieux de faire quelque chose de tangible comme les supporter contre le terrorism.....il dit qu'il sera temps de vraiment les mettre sur la table ces fanatique musulmans.....en autre mots....les confronter ensembles.
il ne te descend pas du tous.....excuse mon francais mon ami.....mes mon education ces fait en anglais :D
ROFLMAO:D :D
Sorry SLO, I only had two years of Latin in High School and two of French in college and that was way way long time ago and I really only took French because all the hot chickies did also. So, with that background, I only get the vaguest of sense about appreciating the sentiment, and being against terrorism, and fanatical muslims, excuseing your French by friend, and your english and .... Well, anyway, you get the point:confused:
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well syz....I was tryin to give straffo a more accurate translation of your thoughts...he was a little confused.
no put downs...promise:cool:
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@SLO : thanks for the help.
Originally posted by Syzygyone
Actually Straffo, your english is pretty good. I do not deal in subtleties so there are none to read. I don't for a second suggest that you have ever supported terrorism. All I am saying is that all the wailing and nashing of teeth isn't going to stop terrorism. It's a WORLD WIDE problem and it needs WORLD WIDE cooperation to wipe it out.
I know it's world wide and I think/hope despite the media agitation our intel work a bit together.
I personnaly think that undercover operation work better to fight terrorism than mediatic war (here is our difference) but I undertand Bush need for some scalp to calm public opinion.
I can explain a bit deeply my position but then we will have to switch to french so I'll be sure to write exactly what I want to.
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Originally posted by SLO
well syz....I was tryin to give straffo a more accurate translation of your thoughts...he was a little confused.
no put downs...promise:cool:
Wasn't worried about that. I just thought, how interesting that a Canadian needs to explain to a Frenchman what an American is trying to say and the American doens't understand what is being said about what he said. Just strikes me a pretty funny, especially in the context of what's been going on for the past few months.
LOL I guess we have to take over the whole damn world! j/k
Thanks for interpreting!
:D :D
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NP bud....pas probleme straffo.....its a pleasure.
hmmm syz says direct confrontation....
straffo says NO direct confrontation....
but both say something should be done.....
there lies our differences......which is minimal in the big picture.
sorry syz....my education was in english.....but my writing abilities are none existent when it comes too puttin down what I think.
not much of a writer...like reading more.
the thought process between french and english can get tricky at times.....think in french and write it done so an englishmen can understand.....trikky I say:eek:
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Originally posted by SLO
ya can't kill em all bud.......even though I kinda agree with ya 1000%.
they will APPEASE your sentiments...trust me....they'll say"my American friend....5 cents a barrel instead of 8":D
all will be forgotten wery wery quickly:p
SLO,
That is where you are wrong. We are no longer interested in forgetting. We are interested in GETTING the (can't even think of a word strong enough :mad: ) creatures that breath and live terrorism. Frankly that means we as a nation are flat out pissed off and will be kicking some prettythang.
Time for saudi to step up tp te plate and get serious.
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I would love to be proven wrong here, but I have been saying all along that the co-dependant relationship between Osama and Dubya meant that as soon as Iraq semi settled down it would be "their" turn to shed blood. We're up next. Who'll it be, Iran or Syria? Gotta keep things going so Osama and Dubya can continue to gain power and increase their control of their respective clans.
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I hear ya mav.....actually I always did:D
but trust me....when this talks $$$$$.....everyone listens.
but now that you got Iraq bringing some...Saudi Arabia becomes a little less important.....that means spit out more $$$$$
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Dowding = Neville Chamberlain = Appeasement = Death to the appeaser! Get a clue!:eek:
Actaully, in that case the appeasers won...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Actaully, in that case the appeasers won...
Tronsky
Poor attempt at a troll Tronski, you can do better.
They didn't win by appeasing. Ol'e Winston made sure of that now, didn't he. They won by willingly sacrifiicng hundreds of thousands of their young men in order to kickthe bad guy's ass!
It's a terrible price to pay but sometimes it has to be paid.
If your refering to the French, they didn't win anything! The allies just brought them along for the ride!
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Originally posted by Dowding
I agree. It's working wonders for Israel. The Palestinian extremists don't attack as often anymore and they certainly don't seem to have any grass root support.
In fact, I can't remember the last time someone strapped explosives to their body and decided to kill dozens of women and children. But then I have a very short memory span - about a week. Which is very convenient in this particular case.
Yes, only about 1 week since the last suicide bombing in Israel and it was nothing but luck that "only" tree died this time.
Regards Blitz
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Originally posted by blitz
Yes, only about 1 week since the last suicide bombing in Israel and it was nothing than luck that "only" tree died this time.
Regards Blitz
What are the Germans doing to help the situation?
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Syzygyone: It's a terrible price to pay but sometimes it has to be paid.
Come on, you do not believe that. It's not really terrible as long as someone else rather than you has to pay it.
miko
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Originally posted by Martlet
What are the Germans doing to help the situation?
Giving short prison sentences to those who aid, abet, and assist the world's worst terrorist murderers. Yeah, that will deter a lot of terrorism.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Martlet
What are the Germans doing to help the situation?
Nobody likes this form of terrorism and i'm sure all good people will regret that massive loss of lifes.
We won't stop things like that with violence only, though.
It's just like criminalismn, you can't stop that with more violence.
Political solutions are needed too and wise politics.
And we need to stop supporting terrorism ourselves when it fits our interests.
Germany helps the US with warships in Africa and troops in Afganistan and we try to help find a solution in Palestine.
Won't help much, though. Only America can stop the violent rassisimn from Israel and the bloody suicide bombing answers from palestinians. Israel won't hear anyone except it's money spender.
Regards Blitz
btw Our intelligence helps yours best it could
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Giving short prison sentences to those who aid, abet, and assist the world's worst terrorist murderers. Yeah, that will deter a lot of terrorism.:rolleyes:
It's called justice in Germany and counts for everyone, that's the difference. Doesn't fit perfectly all the time but it's the best we got.
Regards Blitz
We don't need places away from public control, doesn't work for us.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Syzygyone: It's a terrible price to pay but sometimes it has to be paid.
Come on, you do not believe that. It's not really terrible as long as someone else rather than you has to pay it.
miko
It's called "The Bravery of Being Out of Range".
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Straffo.
My ignore list grows. :)
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Originally posted by blitz
Regards Blitz
btw Our intelligence helps yours best it could
Then you and I can probably agree that the intelliegence services have failed miserably once again!
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Originally posted by funkedup
Straffo.
My ignore list grows. :)
Humph!
Another pathetic hollow threat!
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Is that a death threat?
Bring it on Ayatollah.
And I didn't even have to write a book...
FWIW I was pointing out where the fire and brimstone and oversimplification of a protracted issue gets you - ask the average Israeli how successful their government's policy has been. I believe several Americans on this board are cultural supremacists who would love to follow the Israeli lead. Unlike Israel, there are more than enough Americans who don't. For now.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Is that a death threat?
Bring it on Ayatollah.
And I didn't even have to write a book...
FWIW I was pointing out where the fire and brimstone and oversimplification of a protracted issue gets you - ask the average Israeli how successful their government's policy has been. I believe several Americans on this board are cultural supremacists who would love to follow the Israeli lead. Unlike Israel, there are more than enough Americans who don't. For now.
To whom are you posting?
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Dowding = Neville Chamberlain = Appeasement = Death to the appeaser! Get a clue!
I was taking the piss.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I was taking the piss.
No Dowd; I wasn't threatening you! Sorry if you thought that.:(
I just thought your post about the appeaser winning WWII was ridiculous and thought that you should get a clue that those who appease end up dead!
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No, I didn't seriously think you were issuing a threat of any kind. But what you wrote was a little OTT.
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Originally posted by Dowding
FWIW I was pointing out where the fire and brimstone and oversimplification of a protracted issue gets you - ask the average Israeli how successful their government's policy has been. I believe several Americans on this board are cultural supremacists who would love to follow the Israeli lead. Unlike Israel, there are more than enough Americans who don't. For now.
I'd like to see some hard stats on what the people feel Dowding. I bet you'd be surprised at how visceral the reaction is. What would the situation be like if Israel wasn't hard lined. The Israeli Jews that I know all, uniformly, are in support of the settlements and Israels' right to exist. Consequently, they all, uniformly, hate Palestinian terrorists.
I see it this way. People have tried negotiation with these radicals for decades, going back into the 60s. Lest we forget, Israel has been in some sort of war ever since it was created by the UN. Still the Palestineans murder innocents. Lots and lots of innocents. The only way to protect yourself is to kill the enemy that would kill you. If you appease, you die. Maybe not you personnaly, but your countrymen die.
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Originally posted by Dowding
No, I didn't seriously think you were issuing a threat of any kind. But what you wrote was a little OTT.
Not over the top at all I fear. If you think it was over the top, then you need to re-read your history lessons.
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WW2 was nothing like our current situation. Everything was compartmentalized into easily discernible parties. It was easy compared to the current situation, which involves an organisation effectively with no fixed abode. That recruits not by the draft, but by conviction of ideology.
We'll have to think smart on this one. Heavy handedness gets you nowhere with terrorism. Take a lesson from us on that one.
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
I'd like to see some hard stats on what the people feel Dowding. I bet you'd be surprised at how visceral the reaction is. What would the situation be like if Israel wasn't hard lined. The Israeli Jews that I know all, uniformly, are in support of the settlements and Israels' right to exist. Consequently, they all, uniformly, hate Palestinian terrorists.
I see it this way. People have tried negotiation with these radicals for decades, going back into the 60s. Lest we forget, Israel has been in some sort of war ever since it was created by the UN. Still the Palestineans murder innocents. Lots and lots of innocents. The only way to protect yourself is to kill the enemy that would kill you. If you appease, you die. Maybe not you personnaly, but your countrymen die.
Don't ask him to get the facts. The easiest way to stay on the "I hate America" bus is to find a few nuts then attribute that to the whole population.
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Originally posted by Dowding
WW2 was nothing like our current situation. Everything was compartmentalized into easily discernible parties. It was easy compared to the current situation, which involves an organisation effectively with no fixed abode. That recruits not by the draft, but by conviction of ideology.
We'll have to think smart on this one. Heavy handedness gets you nowhere with terrorism. Take a lesson from us on that one.
Well, I recently have spent some significant time with Brits who had lots and lots of experience with terrorism . I even worked with the Britain's leading forensic bomb expert. I truly marveled at their resolve. With those that I met, it's not a matter of if, but of when.
I think though that you are mixing the probelms of searching for terrorists with what to do with terrorists once you find them. I agree that finding them is very very hard. You'll just have to trust that I know how hard it is. Yes we have to think long and hard and smart to find them.
But! Once you find the bastages, you milk them for as much information as possible, by whatever means necessary and then you off them. That's justice for these scum and what they do! (even in Germany Blix)
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There was no progress in the NI peace process until a dialogue was opened with the terrorist leadership.
Is that possible with Al Queda. I doubt it.
Is that possible with those that support Al Queda? I think so.
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Originally posted by Dowding
There was no progress in the NI peace process until a dialogue was opened with the terrorist leadership.
Is that possible with Al Queda. I doubt it.
Is that possible with those that support Al Queda? I think so.
Why did you guys want NI anyway. All that green everywhere and Blarney and stuff! :D
I certainly can't speak knowledgably about the GB's problems with IRA terrorists and the like. Basically I've read and seen TomClancey's Patriot Games (joking here) and talked with a few intel and law enforcement types. So, I don't pretend to lecture GB on how to handle their terrorists.
But, I do have a serious question. I note your statement about opening a dialogue with terrorist leadership with great concern though. It seems that doing so only emboldens other terrorists to think that terrorism can acheive political goals. Don't you just propagate more terrorism by agreeing to and then negotiating with them? What does your public feel about that?
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"1st off syz...the french have been dealing with terrorism LONG before you ever did...and they still are. "
Dealing? You got it right! The French are potatos to them. They sell them protection in order to be protected from them.
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The majority of NI wants to remain part of the UK - for economic reasons mainly and patriotic. Most of the industry was concentrated up there too.
The negociations were done in secret at first by John Major. For years the line had been "We don't negociate with terrorists", as had been proved over and over (the Iranian Embassy attack by the SAS being a good example). It seemed like the killing would never end. Everyone was tired of it. By reaching out to the moderates, you take away the support for the extremist nut-jobs. Compromise was the key.
The road has not been smooth. The Real IRA, essentially the hardcore elements of the group, refused to accept the IRA ceasefire and continued murdering. This culminated in the Omagh bombing which killed 38 men, women and children and injured hundreds more. There was disgust and outrage from all quarters. The Real IRA essentially had cut its own throat - there was now real feeling that there had to be way of resolving the issues at stake, real motivation.
The Good Friday Agreement was borne, which allowed for power sharing and decentralisation of government. NI itself would take on some of the roles that had previously been restricted to London.
In a referendum, 89% of the population of NI voted for this agreement. I think people simply wanted to live in peace.
The road is long, and the power-sharing executive is at the moment dissolved because Sinn Fein (political wing of the IRA) had spies within Stormant (where the NI Assembly is based) spying on the Unionists. I'm sure this will be resolved. It's what the people want.
I'm no expert, but this is my understanding of the situation in brief. :)
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Can you recomend any good books on the whole IRA mess?
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Syz, I do believe this here pot has been well stirred. :D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Syz, I do believe this here pot has been well stirred. :D
!Chaos, Panic, Confusion, Disorder! My work here is done!
Next!
:D :D :D :D :D
Actually, Dowding's most recent posts are enlightening. How to deal with terrorism is an interesting dilemma
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2slow......eat me biatch:D....your assuming too much.
I think I know where dowdin is comin from.......
ya can't use ultimate force to deal with a religious ideology or fanatics.....
ya gots too educate the mass...not destroy em:)
but at some point dowding...syz is right....ya just can take so much of that chit.....
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Originally posted by SLO
but at some point dowding...syz is right....ya just can take so much of that chit.....
Heheh if I were God, I'd start over with that flood thingy except I'd save the Swedish Bikini Team too!
Ooops, I prolly pissed off that Iron Chef guy! :eek:
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Originally posted by Dowding
I agree. It's working wonders for Israel. The Palestinian extremists don't attack as often anymore and they certainly don't seem to have any grass root support.
In fact, I can't remember the last time someone strapped explosives to their body and decided to kill dozens of women and children. But then I have a very short memory span - about a week. Which is very convenient in this particular case.
Sure Dowding,
We'll just give them a hug and try to talk it over like rational people do. Perhaps they're just "misunderstood".
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Sorry GTO - I haven't really read any books on the matter - it's just what I've picked up over the years starting with school history lessons and watching recent events unfold.
GrimCO - you miss my point entirely.
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Poor attempt at a troll Tronski, you can do better.
They didn't win by appeasing. Ol'e Winston made sure of that now, didn't he. They won by willingly sacrifiicng hundreds of thousands of their young men in order to kickthe bad guy's ass!
It's a terrible price to pay but sometimes it has to be paid.
If your refering to the French, they didn't win anything! The allies just brought them along for the ride!
Actually I think Dowding put it best
I was taking the piss.
I just love watching how all directions always point to the easy appeaser angle
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Dowding
GrimCO - you miss my point entirely.
Nah, I didn't miss your point Dowding. Was just making a sarcastic point like you were.
I'm not even remotely on Isreal's side with the Palestine issue. I just strongly disagree with Palestine's tactics, and they seem to be working. Although they're absolutely correct in my opinion for wanting an end to Isreali occupation, I cannot dismiss their tactics as being a just cause.
This issue goes all the way back to biblical times, and is not merely political in nature. They think different than we do over there, and standard negotiation or reasoning does not apply.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Sorry GTO - I haven't really read any books on the matter - it's just what I've picked up over the years starting with school history lessons and watching recent events unfold.
GrimCO - you miss my point entirely.
What you've picked up over the years? You're a freaking kid. I'd love to be around when you get some age, maturity, and life experience under your belt, then realize what a fool you were.
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Then you and I can probably agree that the intelliegence services have failed miserably once again!
The problem can't be solved with intelligence services, police and military only.
They are needed but political solutions are the only way that will really help.
ex. Had the war on drugs been won in any country of the west?
Takes me 1 hour to get every drug i like to get .
There was huge police resources spent to won tho, but it's useless because political answers are needed the most. Education, employment and such.
Regards Blitz
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They think different than we do over there, and standard negotiation or reasoning does not apply.
Sounds like the carte blanche the Israelis believe they have.
Most Palestinians want to live in peace. Give people something to live for and maybe they won't strap explosives to their bodies, or even support the people that do such things. Indescriminate killing radicalizes the whole population - the small number of radicals grow. The best way is to use the moderates to control the radicals through genuinely attractive incentives. The previous proposed peace plan didn't do that.
The Israelis believe they have found a solution. The key performance indicators of that particular solution - number of civilians killed - shows it's seriously not delivering. I think it's time for a new approach; and I hope all parties are held to the new road map.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Sounds like the carte blanche the Israelis believe they have.
Most Palestinians want to live in peace. Give people something to live for and maybe they won't strap explosives to their bodies, or even support the people that do such things. Indescriminate killing radicalizes the whole population - the small number of radicals grow. The best way is to use the moderates to control the radicals through genuinely attractive incentives. The previous proposed peace plan didn't do that.
The Israelis believe they have found a solution. The key performance indicators of that particular solution - number of civilians killed - shows it's seriously not delivering. I think it's time for a new approach; and I hope all parties are held to the new road map.
Dowding, I was in no way implying that all Palestinians are incapable of rational thought. However, you must remember that this conflict has been rooted into their psyches for generation upon generation dating back to biblical times. It's not just an issue to them, it has become an actual part of their culture.
The very nature of being "radical" precludes anyone from controlling them. I doubt some moderate Palestinians who may come into power will dissuade these radicals from their former ways, and convince them to follow this road map. If Isreal pulls out of Palestine (which I sincerely hope they do), anytime something doesn't go their way thereafter, I'm pretty sure these radicals will revert immediately to their old ways of strapping bombs to their chests and taking care of business.
Palestine must make a legitimate effort to punish and put these types of people in jail. Not just "discourage" them from using these tactics by telling them they shouldn't do it.