Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: jEEZY on May 13, 2003, 09:00:24 AM
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Hi all,
I just played Forgotten Battles; Wow. A very well done sim--lots of things about it just seem right: gunnery, aircraft management, light effects, etc. Perhaps its just the novelty, but I really like the feeling of that game over AH. In fact AH feels more like an arcade game after Forgotten Battles; wish it was Massively Multi-player.
Anybody else think that the FM and such seem more realistic?
jEEZY
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Originally posted by jEEZY
In fact AH feels more like an arcade game after Forgotten Battles; wish it was Massively Multi-player.
I agree. Much of it is due to the easier gunnery, icons and graphics.
Oleg has said he is hoping to do a MMP flight sim based on the IL2 engine.
Anybody else think that the FM and such seem more realistic?
[/B]
The individual plane FMs are much more balanced in AH. Gameplay balance is the key issue, AH is much better there.
There are some FM issues in FB, but overall, FB gives a nice "suspension of disbelief". The overall difficulty level is higher in FB, good for the challenge. :)
Camo
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FB is really cool graphics but them guns I tell ya. Ill go through all my ammo and lucky if the plane ahead goes down. The damage model is really great to but I havent played it enough to find all the jewls in it.
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played it online for the first time last night. My first shot with my jug 25 blew apart a 190 in a full crossing shot. I was supprised after my single player experiance.
As to the flight models..dont know. the fundimentals are there to have an extraordinary game. The models the graphics the sounds the terrains. Increadble. But online the stutering is pretty bad. And standalone the campaign is pretty farcicle. The pieces are increadable. But the overall is less then the sum.
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The Flight models in FB's do indeed have "Issues." Please don't confuse difficulty w/ accuracy. Some elments in the Flight Models- like slow speed flight- are done better in FB's. The rest of the "Flight Envelope" is much much better in AH.
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In my eyes AH have better multiplay regarding getting multi pilots playing at the same time and exelent Vox communcation.
But I have to say that FB is a more detailed/challanged and more realistic game then AH at the moment;).
AH gets more Arcade game after you tested FB;)
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...until AH2 comes along!
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well, its not a super multiplayer game like aces high is, but it pretty much hands down beats it with the exception of the view system.
When, and if forgotten battles, or a game with that engine comes along, and is a multiplayer like aces high, well aces high better look out.
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Originally posted by OIO
...until AH2 comes along!
I doubt...
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Are you joking, right? FB is a nice offline sim, with a beautiful 3D engine. However, his CEM is full of bugs and the whole sim needs a ton of fixes. A patch is inbound but, as for IL-2, it probably wont fix all the bugs and inaccuracies. Why? Time is money and next 1C projects needs manwork.
AH's FM is, generally speaking and IMHO, much better.
Take a look at the SimHQ BBS and read what even former beta-tester say about FB and his FM. You really should have been a beta tester to understand.
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It would be nice if AH2 planes have historical cockpits and historical engine managment... But I doubt
AH1 version 1.11P4 vs IL2FB version 1.0? Wow!
Thats bit straight forward, eh?
Well, IL2FB can offer lot more plane simulator even todays state than AH1 ever.
I like them both
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Seems to me that the FM in FB is better tthan AH based on my experiance flying planes and gliders. Albeit the planes I have flown were not 300mph fighters--but the basic sensations and such are the same. The basic flight characteristics such as landing taking off, coordinated turns, straight and level, seem more realistic in FB--Like I said above, AH feels more like an arcade game, perhaps it has to in order to be a Massive Multiplayer.
Futhermore, the gunnery in FB is more difficult to master--I think in this area FB beats AH hands down. In AH it is not unusual for a single plane to down a b-17 on a single pass--this should be the exception not the rule.
jeezy
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AH will never have to worry about IL-2FB. The "Why?" has been pointed out time after time.
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Originally posted by Xjazz
It would be nice if AH2 planes have historical cockpits and historical engine managment... But I doubt
AH1 version 1.11P4 vs IL2FB version 1.0? Wow!
Thats bit straight forward, eh?
Well, IL2FB can offer lot more plane simulator even todays state than AH1 ever.
I like them both
You mean unreadable cockpit and hysterical engine management ? :D
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Originally posted by straffo
You mean unreadable cockpit and hysterical engine management ? :D
Yeah, that I mean :D
No no, FB kind of cockpits with AH snapview setup system plus native TrackIR support plus terrible hysterical engine managment :p
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quick lists of things wrong with FB- things which makes you realize what HTC does right :D
-No stall Horn ( your supposed to tell stall limits by screen shaking or Force Feedback, BAH!)
-Worst view system this side of the Pecos (no 6 view, yet allows 'no cockpit')
-Crappy netcode (compared to AH) warp is handeled badly IMO
-Stutters while loading objects (I have 128 MB vid card and 512MB sys mem-shouldn't stutter)
Pro's that make FB's worth seeing
- Eye Candy,
- gunnery (but with crappy view system this can be a con too)
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Have to dissagree with you jeezy. The gunnery system in AH is better and feels more realistic except at the extremes of range. Ah makes 700 yard + shots too easy. FB makes 200 yard shots too hard. But overall AH feels more right to me. And B17s were indeed shot down by 4 cannon interceptors in single passess. Quite regularly.
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Maybe its just me but I feel no difference in FB's P-47- fully loaded or unloaded. Take a different amo-load in AH and you will notice. FB's flight models are way overrated. I think some of the slow speed elements of the model may be better in FB's. One thing about FB's. Get slow-drop flaps and gear. Ok-now go full throttle-hell-even dive! What happens? Nothing! You speed will not change very much. Like gear and flaps are magical speed breaks or somthing. Crappy flight models really. FB's has attracted a lot of "johnny come latelty's" with all the eye candy and all of a sudden-they become experts in FM's. A joke really!
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-Worst view system this side of the Pecos (no 6 view, yet allows 'no cockpit')
Do you have TrackIR or a mouse? Good grief.
Il-2 fails marginally in the 6 view as it doesn’t compensate for torso movement in the hat views, as where AH exploits it, and doesn’t support mouse or TR at all. Yet you benchmark AH in comparison?
Your wrong, and HTC is right for catering to the gameplay tastes of the masses. I’d like a realism change however, and more features like IL-2 provides.
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i dont think the view system is that bad as long as you fly on servers where you cant turn off cockpit. you can increase speed of snap view in ini file so it is very similar to aces high
i think gunnery is not too bad it takes getting used to. i am a pretty good shot with the taters now in the 109, took a while to get used to though.
i agree the pauses (only online) suck. i think it has to do with loading a new skin. mabye i need more ram or mabye that wont even help. well 512 mb of ram is only 40 bucks now (isn't that just sick)???
the FM is adequate I would say. aces high hits the numbers better IMO but feels a little too much like you're on rails, i think il-2 has a little more dynamic feel to it.
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Am I the only one that finds that there is no torque in FB? Just kick full throttle while on the ground and there you go, straight ahead and no sign of torque.
Daniel
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When do I get off Probation?
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There's quite a few issues with FB's FM... hopefully they'll fix it by the first patch, considering most of the omissions are in Il2, it's annoying to see they were either removed or not linked in the FB FM calculations.
No Torque, too little drag on certain planes, too much drag on others, apparently no weight with ordinance and no drag with external ordinance, and a couple other issues I've seen I can't remember right now.
I hope these missing features are from bugs or will be put back in during a patch.... and not a move towards the CFS series type of FMs.
Especially considering their are difficulty settings that can be toggled: "Torque and Gyro Effects" and "Gyro Effect" for things that aren't working in the game...
-SW
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I like both games for what they are...games. I don't profess to know exactly what a WW2 fighter or bomber flies or shoots like. I do however see the pluses and minuses of both games. For instance someone mentioned making a single pass on a B-17 and shooting it down in AH. Well I have tried that several times in F4U-1's and been successful in downing an entire 3 plane cell with less than 60% of my ammo gone. I have done it with P-47's in AH as well and used roughly the same ammo on the kills. I have noticed torque when running up the engine and have to compensate with the rudder on roll out.
The one bad thing about FB is this for me. With a 128MB video card, 512MB System RAM and the options not turned all the way up (just a couple clicked off for graphics speed) I still get pauses in gameplay when the enemy aircraft first pop into my views. Then I get a couple of others when either me or the enemy open fire the first time. I have had pauses last as long as a full minute or as short at 3-5 seconds depending on the terrain. I have noticed sound stutters as well and I know what that is caused by in my system.
System is as follows:
AMD 1.4 T-Bird
512MB PC2100 DDR
GF4 Ti4400 128MB
ASUS A7V266
IBM 13.6GB 7200 rpm
Maxtor 80GB 7200 rpm
Diamond MX300 (getting very long in the tooth with this one)
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WHEN DO I GET OFF PROBATION??????
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I enjoy AH for what it is: a balanced game. However, at times AH's graphics (eye candy to some) seem dated, its gunnery a bit too easy to master, and FM that don't feel right (slow speed approaches is when it feels most unrealistic). I play both and enjoy both, perhaps in a few months FB will fade--which it will--but I will still play AH because I enjoy the human element (and lots of it). BUT, imo AH has some issues that should be addressed that would increase its future viability.
In response: I doubt there was ever one instance of a b-17 exploding into thin air on one pass--perhaps being mortally wounded yes, but total and abrupt destruction no? Perhaps with a well placed 88mm flak shell or a direct hit on an O2 bottle--but please total destruction? Sorry I dont have the time to research this more to flesh out this issue a bit more would make an interesting paper: B-17's Survivability and the Leathality of the Luftwaffe Cannon: A Study. But alas my thesis was on Car Culture and its effect on American Armour tactics in the western front 1944-45.
FB is not the valhalla of games, but neither is AH--both have thier short comeings and strengths.
jeezy
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Are you saying planes don't go up in balls of fire in FB after a single pass?
I've gotten pretty good at taking He111s, Pe2s and Pe8s(The closest thing to a B17 in FB) out in a single pass with a Fw... the A4 or A5 model.
Just hit 'em in the bomb bay, and there's nothing left of 'em... sometimes they'll take out nearby Pe8s, your wingmen and you if you get too close.
There's plenty of accounts from WWII of B17, B24, B25, and B26 pilots watching their group or element leader, or wing elements disintegrating during fighter attacks. Flak never fired at bomber formations when fighters were attacking...
-SW
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YES YES- When You get Slow !!! Thats where FB's is good and AH is arcade like. The rest of the flight envlope is much better in AH........................WHE N DO I GET OFF PROBATION???
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I HAVE SOMETHING REALLY AMAZING TO SHARE WITH THE COMMUNITY AND I WANT TO POST IT. I CANT WHILE ON PROBATION. PLEASE TAKE ME OFF PROBATION OR SOMBODY CAN POST IT? ITS AMAZING FIRST_HAND ACCOUNT OF FRIEND IN SAUDI DURING BOMBING!
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Originally posted by MoMoney
I HAVE SOMETHING REALLY AMAZING TO SHARE WITH THE COMMUNITY AND I WANT TO POST IT. I CANT WHILE ON PROBATION. PLEASE TAKE ME OFF PROBATION OR SOMBODY CAN POST IT? ITS AMAZING FIRST_HAND ACCOUNT OF FRIEND IN SAUDI DURING BOMBING!
WHAT?! you drunk/drugged up crazy bast! :D
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**** i hereby anounce that the drunk is no longer on probation****
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There's plenty of accounts from WWII of B17, B24, B25, and B26 pilots watching their group or element leader, or wing elements disintegrating during fighter attacks.
Please let me know where I can read about these thanks.
Ken
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"The American Airmen In Europe" by Roger Freeman
"Clash of Wings" by Walter J. Boyne
"The Great Book of World War II Airplanes" by many authors, ISBN: 0-517-16024-2
"The Wild Blue" by Stephen Ambrose
Those should get you started.
-SW
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Furball your Just angry that I shot you -down.
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"The Fortunes of War -- a history of the 492nd Bomb Group on Daylight operations" by Alan G. Blue
It can be obtained from Cliff Bishop at East Anglia books, nr Bishops Stortford, England.
During this brief eighty eight day period the 492nd suffered heavier losses than any other B-24 Group which eventually led to the decision to remove the 492nd from daylight operations. And as part of the 14th Combat Wing, 2nd Bomb division , the 492nd were to find themselves on the 7 July mission on the end of the first mass Sturm assault carried out in Gruppe strength by a Luftwaffe Sturmgruppe .
The Luftwaffe, in fact, was well organized on 7 July 1944. Liberators especially equipped to monitor enemy fighter frequencies actually heard the attacking ZG 26 (410s) pilots ordered to hit the "third formation" (i.e., the 14th Wing) as the "first formation" had too many escorting fighters protecting it.
The main enemy concentration from Magdeburg plus reinforcements from Southwest Germany, as many as 175 single engine and 125 twins in all, unleashed their attacks against the center of the column. Although one squadron of the leading 389th Group moving into Halle lost three bombers to enemy fighters when it strayed from the parent force, and the 489th lost one over Aschersleben, the majority of the attacks were hammered against the 14th Wing attacking Bernberg. As noted earlier the 44th Group was flying directly behind the 392nd at a three minute interval. At the IP (the 44th noted in its mission report) "FOUR GROUPS OF B-24'S CAME IN FROM THE EAST AND IT BECAME NECESSARY TO SWING TO THE RIGHT... FIGHTER SUPPORT WAS EXCELLENT." In other words, the 492nd was now exposed to attack from the rear, and all local escort had gone with the 44th. Thus was the fate of the 492nd again sealed.
From six o'clock the enemy fighters fell on the Group's low left squadron like a sledgehammer. Capt. Ernest E. Pelkey's B-24 was hit, spun and then exploded with everybody still inside. Lt. MacMurray and crew went down for the second time under an enemy fighter's guns but without a trace of the luck they had experienced on 15 June ( MacMurray and his crew had been Priller's 100th victim over Normandy in June but had been able to make their way back to American lines and home to North Pickenham )
S/Sgt Francis Larrivee, gunner, Lt Raymond Pascual, bombardier and S/Sgt Walter Schlosser, gunner. Three members of Lt Dave MacMurray's 856BS crew . A 'tough luck' crew, they had suffered much in the run up to 7 July 1944 . Losses amongst 856BS crews had been particularly heavy on the 20 June mission to Politz. The crew is still listed MIA and the wreck of their aircraft which lies near Magdeburg has never been formally identified. (Info courtesy Russell Ives, photo from Bill Beasley's 492nd journal The Happy Warrior)
The battle raged up to and over and beyond the target, with the route marked by the wreckage of the Liberators of Watson, Harding, Jacks, Kilpatrick, Newman, Steneman, Frank Haag, Smiley and Bocksberger.
All twelve persons in Harding's lead aircraft managed to bail out but were badly beaten, and one killed, by German civilians when they landed. Everybody but the nose and tail gunners left Jacks' B-24. The latter was dead, but Sgt. Vince Bradeka, trapped in the nose turret by fire, was far from it.The aircraft circled for five minutes before it crashed, while enemy fighters continued to make passes. Bradeka was seen shooting until the end.
Events aboard Frank Haag's aircraft were equally grim. The copilot and radio operator were dead on the flight deck, which was a total wreck. Two gunners were dead at their stations, and there was a fire in the bomb bay. Meanwhile in the nose compartment the following was taking place - quoted verbatim from what must be one of the classic action vignettes of World War II. This was written by Haag's navigator, Lt. Ralph Goloven, upon his release from POW camp in 1945:
"When leading a mission I always found it best, after definitely establishing the IP and target, to ride on the nose wheel doors, giving the bombardier complete freedom of the little space in the nose. We had always flown B-24J's whose nose wheel doors open upward. This time we were flying a B-24H, whose nose wheel doors open down-wards, and I had forgotten this, otherwise I would never have been on them. After bombs were reported away, I heard the pilot say rudder control was lost, and though there was much firing I didn't think it was anything serious. Interphone was shot out soon after, and about two minutes past the target I noticed that the nose gunner, who always was so careful about shooting in short bursts and handled his turret very smoothly, must have been hit for the turret suddenly and violently slewed around to the right and the ammo tracks leading to the turret from the ammo boxes in my compartment were running wild. I started to get up from the wheel doors when I noticed the bombardier look out one window, then the other, rip his flak suit off and snap on his parachute. I still didn't think too much about the matter but took my flak suit off in order to move more quickly into the nose to help the nose gunner. Something prompted me to reach for my chute which was on the catwalk to the right and (I) had just started to get from my knees to climb into the nose when the bombardier hit the emergency release, and out I went with chute in hand. Later the bombardier told me he saw the plane completely on fire in the wing section and, fearing immediate explosion, thought only of getting out fast.
"After falling I managed to hook the left side of the chest pack and, after pulling rip cord with no result, ripped the chute pack open by hand, coming down with only the left side fastened. I still believed nothing serious had happened. Next day I found out our ship had exploded in mid-air."
George Haag, flying in the lead squadron, watched his brother's plane go down.
The 492nd lost one other at Bernberg - the only aircraft lost from the lead squadron. Small deviations in routes and timing had placed the 453rd and 492nd on a collision course. As the formations, both under fighter attack, approached each other Major Heaton, sitting between the seats of Konstand's lead B-24 as Command Pilot for the mission, nudged the pilot and pointed to the on-coming Liberators. Lt. Konstand, an utterly dedicated officer whose only intent at that moment was to bomb his target, acknowledged their presence with a single comment: "They're empty and we're full. Let them move over!"
Just then the aircraft flying deputy lead for the 453rd, which actually was a PFF Liberator supplied by the 389th, was hit and veered toward the on-coming 492nd with its right wing on fire. The events that followed are again quoted from the mission diary of Lt. Crowley.
"Lt. Cary was flying on our right wing - his wing tip practically in our side window. I was called to the back of the plane by Sgt. McCarthy whose heated suit had shorted and was burning him. I tried unsuccessfully to fix it and finally sent him to the flight deck to keep warm while I remained in back to man his window gun. I took over the gun facing Cary. Suddenly Sgt. Coomer, the nose gunner, started quite a fuss on the intercom as he saw another plane thundering in on us head-on. We all floated about 2 feet off the floor as O'Sullivan put it into a steep dive. Just as he did I saw the two planes come together. It almost seemed like slow motion; Cary's wing was sheared off, the plane seemed to stay in level flight as the gasoline poured out of the wing just as though someone were emptying a tumbler of water. Then it started to go all directions at once."
Both B-24s spun in, leaving a single parachute in their flaming wake. Underneath the canopy was the collision's only survivor, the navigator from Cary's crew....".
I can post a bunch of stories like this. The lw never attacked an entire bomber stream.
A bomb group had 18 bombers in 3 6 man flights. Each flight had 2 3 ship elements. See pics below.
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Info/formation.jpg)
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Info/FormHead.jpg)
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Info/FormSide.jpg)
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Info/FormTop.jpg)
Each Group was seperated by mile. A 1000 ship raid would stretch 100 of miles. The escorts patrolled specific points along the bomber stream. The lw would have scouts out to pick elements along the bomber stream that had little escort. When they attacked they tore those bombers up. They formed "gefetchsverband". See pick below
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Info/sturm.jpg)
The allies learned that they could send fighters ahead and attack the lw while they were forming up in these gefechtsverband.
1 group could loose 1/2 their ships. The lw mostly had 1 pass to attack before the bombers called in their little friends. But when the lw attacked it meant bombers would be shot down. On many occassions the lw had large kill counts.
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fyi I agree with SW. I can kill bombers (he 111 pe 2 tu 2 pe 8 sbms etc) with 1 pass. In il2 shot placement matters. I can nail stuff with those taters much like I can in ah. But again where you land those hits matters.
Bombers in ah are easy to kill but if you ever watch a film of "3 ships going down in 1 pass" count the number of rounds in each bomber.
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unfortuantly have read wild blue...
have the big book...
will check out the others thanks
for armour buffs check out Belton Coopers Death Traps--probably the best book on Shermans in WWII.
jeezy
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the more I play FB the more issues I find...Its good and imo better than AH in many repects...but alas the exterior has started to tarnish a bit...
jeezy
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best thing about IL2/FB is it makes you better in AH ... way better.
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The American Airmen in Europe is a somewhat small book, about half the pages of Wild Blue, but is nonetheless a good read and gives good insight into the guys who flew in WWII.
The others are more documentaries, except the Great Book of WWII Airplanes is actually about a select few airplanes with detailed analysis of their development cycle and several anecdotal passages regarding each plane in their respective sections.
It's a good book with terrific pictures and fold outs.
Like Batz said, in Il2 downing planes in a single burst is all about shot placement and also hitting at your convergence range. You can literally saw planes in half with the P40 or P47 if you hit them on a certain spot with a quick burst at your gun's convergence points.
The differences between Il2 and AH are too much to really compare one to the other. AH uses the method of each bullet doing a damage point based on size of round, distance travelled, explosiveness of round and relative durability of the aircraft. Once a certain point is reached, the part falls off. Also, all bullets seem to effect a certain structure in the same manner... so regardless of the two rounds hitting the outer inner wing and 4 rounds hitting the inner part of the inner wing, the damage is culmulative to that part and can result in that part reaching it's maximum damage value and coming off.
In FB it's much the same with having certain steps in between where damage graphics are progressively made to look worse. It also appears that a 20mm hitting the outer side of the inner wing will do damage to that area and the outer wing, and a hit to the inner side of the inner wing will result in damage to the wing root/fuselage and inner wing. So hitting the same area in close proximity twice (or more, depending on the round) will typically result in the part being destroyed.
All in all, FB is fun as hell and there isn't a single thing like it out there. AH is fun as hell and there really isn't a single thing like it out there of the same calibre. (Sure there is WB3.... but........)
Can't go wrong playing and enjoying both. :)
-SW
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Originally posted by Eagler
best thing about IL2/FB is it makes you better in AH ... way better.
It has made me better in 109's for sure. I never was able to fly them well at all in AH. I played FB for awhile, and when I flew 109s in AH after that, I was more successful in them, especially against the La's and Yak's in the Eastern Front setups. I even had a good run in a 109 during a Squad Op against La's and Yak's. :)
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I spend 90% of my time in FB in outside view mode on long missions just digging the views and planes. In AH, I spend 90% of my time on long missions on the internet or doing chores.
Weird.
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There's your problem Creampuff... you fly with externals on, give it a go with "No externals" and "Cockpit always on". I find myself doing the same thing in FB as I did in AH: Watching my bellybutton and scanning for dots. On long coop missions I concentrate on fuel conservation and keeping my engine cool, which is something AH doesn't offer to the dimensions FB does.
-SW
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Originally posted by Creamo
-Worst view system this side of the Pecos (no 6 view, yet allows 'no cockpit')
Do you have TrackIR or a mouse? Good grief.
Il-2 fails marginally in the 6 view as it doesn’t compensate for torso movement in the hat views, as where AH exploits it, and doesn’t support mouse or TR at all. Yet you benchmark AH in comparison?
Your wrong, and HTC is right for catering to the gameplay tastes of the masses. I’d like a realism change however, and more features like IL-2 provides.
IMO you need a view system like AH .. I mean we're looking screens about 20 somethign inches or less with max resolution of 1600x1200 ... further limiting your ability to see is just stupid IMO
I can turn around in my chair right now and look behind me... with 180 degrees of vision! I think HTC understands this... I hope they do anyway in makeing AHII
Originally posted by jEEZY
In response: I doubt there was ever one instance of a b-17 exploding into thin air on one pass--perhaps being mortally wounded yes, but total and abrupt destruction no? Perhaps with a well placed 88mm flak shell or a direct hit on an O2 bottle--but please total destruction? Sorry I dont have the time to research this more to flesh out this issue a bit more would make an interesting paper: B-17's Survivability and the Leathality of the Luftwaffe Cannon: A Study. But alas my thesis was on Car Culture and its effect on American Armour tactics in the western front 1944-45.
AH planes tend to explode because of pilot kill.... try shooting the cockpit sometime
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last time I checked a plane won't explode mid-air when pilot dies.
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with trackir the 6 view is the there. You just cant shift your torso or head to "press against the canopy" (or in some cases in ah put your head through the canopy) to see around obstructions.
The only thing I dislike are he grey specs. They stay the same size until they render. I also hate the way some planes disappear into the terrain when you play no icons.
I enjoy no icons but my eyes arent that good. Even with a 21 inch monitor.
Most hosts on hyperlobby do the external view thing but I prefer it off. The jump out the plane to check 6 is pretty bad but you can also jump to other planes.
Some of the coops I have flown matched any event or scenario I have been in. But when they are bad they are friggen terrible.
The scripted dogfight servers are ok. But you get tards like in ah that avoid fighting and go after reseting the map by bombing enemy fields.
But whats good about fb online is if 1 host sux I am not stuck with it. In AH the main sux and the CT has gone to crap.
Except for the Niemen event and the current Guadalcanal: Operation Watchtower event I wouldnt fly ah at all. I am not doing much flying in these events either being on the command staffs for both.
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Mandew, please. Like I said, Il-2 limits the 6 in a bad way, only because it doesn't compensate for torso movement in the Hat view. Its mouse and TrakIR are very realistic.
You can spin around in your chair sure, aren't leather captain chairs with ball bearing swivel bases sweet! But in a fighter, you can't do anything but look back till your neck stops. Then add in aircraft construction frames.
Try it, you cant see but what Il-2 simulates in the mouse view. Lean, and you see my gripe with Il-2 hat switch views.
AH on the other hand, lets you linda blair your way around the gaming platform, and view what you JUST CAN'T in a real fighter. I like it too, but if it was changed to be realistic, that would be cool.
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My eyes, right now anyway ;) , are pretty good so I can see those grey dots even in Hazy conditions. I use an optical trackball mouse affixed to my joystick to act as my hat, and this gives me excellent tracking abilities. Took several months to get used to, but even in a TnB dogfight I can swivel my view around real quick and locate the target. With a lil duck tape on the edges of the area the ball sits in, I don't have any jumps in the view due to extremely quick joystick movements.
Only reason I like no icons is because I have an advantage in the vision department over some people. (Who doesn't like an advantage?!)
Any fights that begin high I tend to push as low as possible, so I can better see aircraft moving against the terrain- multiple bogey engagements are still hard as hell with no icons, very difficult to track the one on your 6 and the one above you.
I agree with Batz, the coops are fukin great in FB... it's like having a scenario event readily available (okay, mostly in the afternoons/night EST), occasionally there's a good dogfight server.
Last night I flew 4 coops in a row, all of them were great setups with good missions (all by DR_Hangar I believe) and cool people. I dunno if they can compare to large scale events in AH, but they were definitely a whole toejamload of fun.
-SW
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I agree Il2 had some serious FM flaws. WIth 1/2 elevator and most of the vertical stabilizer shot off I could fly the 109 without any hindrance. That just doesn't seem right-at least in AH when you lose the vert stab you buy it if you try to bank the aircraft just a bit. No such thing in IL2. I haven't tried FB yet-but if it didn't address this problem yet IMO it is a piece of crap.
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I'm telling you the FM's really sux bad in FB's. Oleg has changed the FM's more than a Schizophrenic on crack. Look at the first verson of the FM's in Il2. Then look at them after the first and second patch- major changes. Now look at the FM's after FB's and we have even more changes! Many of the changes are for the worse!! I hate the long load times and the studdering- I have a very high end system and I still get studdering. CFS3 +patch and mods is much betterf than FB's. I'm serious! FB's is the most overrated sim ever. I didn't even mention the uber Russian planes- hell the I16 there is like the La-7 here. He completely porked the P-47 and now people are waiting anxiously for the P-51- no thanks.
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Originally posted by MoMoney
I'm telling you the FM's really sux bad in FB's. Oleg has changed the FM's more than a Schizophrenic on crack. Look at the first verson of the FM's in Il2. Then look at them after the first and second patch- major changes. Now look at the FM's after FB's and we have even more changes! Many of the changes are for the worse!! I hate the long load times and the studdering- I have a very high end system and I still get studdering. CFS3 +patch and mods is much betterf than FB's. I'm serious! FB's is the most overrated sim ever. I didn't even mention the uber Russian planes- hell the I16 there is like the La-7 here. He completely porked the P-47 and now people are waiting anxiously for the P-51- no thanks.
So, expect you perfect code from version 1.0? Well, I guess, are god like coder who knows how to do perfect FM/DM in first try.
BTW When your sim is coming out?
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Originally posted by MoMoney
I'm telling you the FM's really sux bad in FB's. Oleg has changed the FM's more than a Schizophrenic on crack. Look at the first verson of the FM's in Il2. Then look at them after the first and second patch- major changes. Now look at the FM's after FB's and we have even more changes! Many of the changes are for the worse!! I hate the long load times and the studdering- I have a very high end system and I still get studdering. CFS3 +patch and mods is much betterf than FB's. I'm serious! FB's is the most overrated sim ever. I didn't even mention the uber Russian planes- hell the I16 there is like the La-7 here. He completely porked the P-47 and now people are waiting anxiously for the P-51- no thanks.
This could be the most retarded post ever, but let the Yahoo Swingers thread go it's due course.
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I'm serious! FB's is the most overrated sim ever.
Perhaps the real reason for his anti-FB posts. I just wanted peoples comments about how features in FB could make AH a better sim. I don't think FB is overrated--look at the comments in this thread people are able to critize it and AH objectively. We need more objective critism of the games and less hyperbole.
Jeezy
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Il2 has a few issues, of which are to be adressed with the upcomming patch.
I look forward to the dedicated server software that is being created for Il2 as well.
Momoney: you are an idiot.
:)
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Originally posted by straffo
You mean unreadable cockpit and hysterical engine management ? :D
learn russian letters before you fly Lavochkin La-7:D
Cyrillic letters
(http://www.pbs.org/weta/faceofrussia/reference/img/cyrillic-alphabet.gif)
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All you Sheep keeping kissing the buttox of Oleg.......its a overrated sim-and this isn't ver 1.0. Oh ya- did I mention the Exploding P-40?
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I agree that it's overrated. FB looks like beta, not a finished product.
Btw creamo if there's no torque/gyro effects, what on earth keeps flipping me around if I pull on the stick too early on takeoff?
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The sillist thing about forgotten battles is the name. what a snively name. wha wha what. you forgot our battles
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IL2 FB a very good game. Graphics engine is very well done. FM imho in comparison to AH....well.......trim seems to have little if any effect in FB. Gunnery close in comparison. Views go tho AH hands down.
IL2FB rates high with me. If one plays it first then logs onto AH you seem to do much better in the gunnery department. Tried to encourage some squaddies to do some co-operative missions in FB....but not many squaddies have it.
FB is worth the money....get it.
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Most people dunno what they are talking about in regards to the FM in FB. Or FMS ingeneral
For instance you hear folks talk about their inability to reach top speed.
1st to reach the publish top speed figures you need to be at the right alt and have the right power settings. Also they fail to realize that if say they are at 3000m with the speed guage saying 400k/mh that that is IAS.
Theres an IAS/TAS conversion chart on the 2 nd FB disc. At 3000m 400IAS = 479TAS K/mh, (roughly 300mph).
People say the p47 is porked. The 1st time and only time I flew it online I had 8 kills no deaths.
Straffo thinks every french or Russian plane is porked in every game that has french and russian stuff. He complained that the French stuff in wwiiol was porked on purpose when everyone knows thats false. Now in il2 I bet he flies Russian planes and claims the CEM is biased. Well all the Russian planes in FB have a contant speed prop. Just leave rpm at max and even in the steepest, fastest dives or steepest, slowest climbs the russian props wont over rev. Some dont over heat. Russian rounds in that game hit harder then any type. The only prob with the russian planes is the pilot sits right against the dash so you cant read the guages
People say the i16 is to tough but I never any prob out flying them. I do believe the dm needs tweaking because they eat a ton of ammo unless you place your shots in to the eng or canopy.
The ack is bit to uber compared to il2 and the ai gunners in veteran or higher are better snipers then what we see in ah.
FB has bugs The 190s are complete dogs in terms of manuvering. They feel like the old wbs 190s with any bit of back pressure on the stick they bleed energy big time. Other planes bleed no e at all.
Heres the last AAR I posted on my squad board. I dont have the sturmlog jpg any more but 5 a2a kills no deaths, hit % was 19%.
I enter in the only Full real room I see and its got decent numbers and a decent map. I decide to fly a g14.
I pick a second line field because I dont wanna get vulched if theres action over the front line field. I prime mw 50 and I take off NW and turn Ost. I climb to 3000m and reduce throttle to 70% and set prop pitch at 30%. Cruise speed is 300kmh IAS(@3000m = 359kmh TAS; about 225 mph)
I head Ost toward our Front Line airfield and spot ack tracers. I drop down to 2500m and accelerate to 500kmh IAS (@ 2500 582kmh TAS; about 360mph TAS). I spot a lone grey speck moving N away from airfield with the 88 flak burst tracking him. Hes about 1000m. I nose down and accellerate to 600Kmh IAS (@ 1000m 620kmh TAS; about 385mph TAS).
I am closing on him fast. I have him centered in my revi and slowly he grows larger until his wings fill out the circle. I fire a 4 round burst of 3cm. 2 hits landed. His left wing and left elevator and blown away and hes spirals in.
Kill 1.
I look back and see hi 88 flak bursts back toward the field. I goto the deck and head back west into the sun. I am hoping I am unseen so I can regrab. I get lucky as I am able to extend away and regrab NW of our front line field. I climb up to 3000m again but keep my speed about 400kmh IAS (479kmh TAS; about 300mph TAS). I turn back toward the field and see nothing.
I head Ost out toward the closest enemy Airfield. I spot 2 low dots headed west at 2000m. I slip past them and split esse onto their lo 6. I spot their profiles and see they are p39s. They are line a breast so it will be tough to get both but I line up below the 6 of the left one. I close rapidly and zoom up at his belly and fire multiple 3cm landing at least 3. He rolls over and dives into the ground.
Kill 2.
His wingman breaks hard and I dont follow him but zoom up. I loose site of him for a minute but then I spot him. He did a 180 and was running back toward his af. I drop in behind him and he barrel rolls and I shoot by turning a bit to the left and zoom. He dives down to the deck and I reverse my zoom and dive in on him again. He sees me and pulls a hard right break. I break off my dive and yoyo and roll to match his break.
Now hes out of e completely. I slip on to his 6 pop 2 notches of flaps to keep from overshooting and unload numerous 3cm into him. He promptly catches on fire and a few minutes later he explodes.
Kill 3
Then over the text channel he calls me a ***** BnZ'r. He and his wingman are coming back in el gays to teach me a lesson.
Well I am thinking this ought to be fun. Instead of reclimbing and waiting on him. I goto full throttle otd and race south of his airfield and then turn North so I am Ost of field. I then grab to 2500m. I am carefull to stay out of ack range.
Soon I see 2 specs climbing east. I imagine they wanted to grab before they turned west to "get me". I circle through some clouds until I am between them and their airfield.
They are line astern with 1 guy trailing quite a bit behind his lead. I wait for them to be far enough away from their ack and dive in on tail end charlie. I dive right at him and fire placing 3 or 4 3cm hits on his eng and canopy. Hes smoking and arcs off to the right into the ground.
Kill 4
I am hauling arse and I level and run down the leader. He doesnt even move and I am able to zoom up underneath him and hit him numerous times with 3cm. His tail pops off and he spins into the ground.
Kill 5
Then the tard starts screaming how I cheated and "warped 30km" to kill them. He said there was no way for me to cover that distance from where I first killed both of them.
Dude went nuts I typed back "try MW50 tard" and dude was like "more like dilithium cystals" (geek check)...........
I was lmao and rtd'd and logged.......
Was a fun day
Heres a couple of tracks. The first is a k4vrs an el gay 7 double ace
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/films/acedeath.zip
The next is a a k4 vrs an el gay 7 ace but with icons on to show a squad the range at which I shoot at.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/films/La7ace.zip
None of the bugs in FB are game killers and can be easily overcome by adjusting your tactics to how the planes currently fly in the game. Just like AH.
Most of these bugs will be addressed in the next patch and a bunch of new planes.
Just check the FB haters scores in ah to see the planes they fly and their K/d. They suck in AH no wonder FB is too hard for umm.
AH beats il2/FB in instant action. The only I dont play ah any more is ther pork n auger land grab game play. IMHO its just not fun.
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I cant seem to find any fun playing IL2 online - it seems there are just a bunch of quaker no cockpit types on hyperlobby. And frankly I had my fill of those "hosted" flight sim fights when I flew janes WW2 fighers - I like AH arena setup much betterbecause of the freedom it gives you and the huge size of the map.
Like everyone else I love the graphics and atmospherics of IL2.
But I hate the following:
Huge muzzle falshes - oleg seems to think all cannon have the 6 foot fireballs that loose tolerance russian cannon had in the war and after. This is false, I have seen shots p39 firing all its nose guns in a pitch black environment and the muzzle blast was not 1/2 of what they have in Il2 in the middle of the day. This is most obvious when firing the MK108 30mm, hell if it produced such a muzzle blast there would have nbeen no propellant to left to move the shell. :)
Which brings me to the second point, MK108 is neuterd in the game. I have seen fighters take numerous 30mm hits in that game and merilly go on like nothing has happened. Hell just look at batz's videos that La7 is rolling, looping and jinking like mad after he got blasted by 30mm two or thrre different times. Sorry I just dont buy that the DM in that instance - I have simply seen and read too much about MK108 effect to belive that.
Then of course there is the view system - its way too limited. They should just copy the AH view setup primarily in the adjustabvle head position but not the full exent of the linda blair AH 360 degree six view which I belive is a bit too generous. We should be able to look back over our shoulder and be able to see straight back and not just the tiny 90 degree side/rear view it gives now.
The FW190 series seems really poor in that game, it flies like crap and feels lethargic.
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Why does the P-40 explode suddenly ?
Why can you still drop flaps at any speed and cause overshoot?
Why does the Stuka outroll the P-47?
In Il2- trim could be used instead of aleron/elevator control- now trim has litle/ no effect?
No difference to FM loaded or unloaded.
E-bleed is all wrong.
Roll rates generally all wrong.
Engine management all wrong.
Damage model generally wrong.
Russian planes uber/ German-US planes porked.
Overrated Cartoon like textures.
Wants to re-write history with regard to VVS performance. See Lock-on as another example.
ON ON and ON and ON................
Serious simmers can see FB's for what it is- a gimick.
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Define any speed? Do you know how to convert k/mh into mph?
p40 has a bug it will get fixed. Do you know the a6m2 tail fails off with slighhtest bump in ah. Do you the ju88 fuel consumption is about 1/3 of what it should be. Do you know that ah has auto retrtacting flaps that in some cases dont match historically. I can list 1000 ah bugs.
The stuka was very manuverable:
In his autobiography, Hans-Ulrich Rudel recalls how his Ju 87 once came under attack from an excellent La-5 pilot:
"I just can't understand how he manages to follow my sharp turns in his fighter aircraft," wrote Rudel. Rudel started preparing himself for the final end, as he suddenly heard his rear-gunner, Stabsarzt Ernst Gadermann, cry over the R/T: "Got the Lag!" Rudel continues: "Was he shot down by Gadermann, or did he go down because of the backwash from my engine during these tight turns? It doesn't matter. My headphones suddenly exploded in confused screams from the Russian radio; the Russians have observed what happened and something special seems to have happened... From the Russian radio-messages, we discover that this was a very famous Soviet fighter pilot, more than once appointed as Hero of the Soviet Union."
That VVS ace was Lev Shestakov
Trim has an effect. It works fine for me. IN il2 you could actually fly the planes just with trim. Folks would map their sticks to throw full trim in the direction they moved it to get better manuverability.
AH has combat trim....
e bleed is wrong on some some planes.
Remember the chogs ability to 90 an instant 180 at 3 gs then run ya down?
How about the shallow climb bug in the spit and niki as documenteed by kweassas tests?
the 190 roll rate in ah is wrong. Try the 109e....
What do you know about eng management?
Theres is none in ah...
The damage model is still better then what we have in ah.
German planes porked? the 190s have a few issues but the 109s are incredible. I have np killing vvs planes piloted by humans or ai.
I agree about Cartoon textures some what but some of the skinning over there is incredible.
Ever see an ah 190 cockpit?
rewrite history? What do you know about history. You struggle in ah and theres no doudt that you would struggle in FB.
Stay in your p38 and hogs and dont worry about il2.
Gruen if you hit cntrl f8 (turn on manual view control: hit esc youll see it) whe watching that track and you see 3 3cm hits. The plane flew on. I was timid after that because at the time I disnt know how much damage he had. After a few rolls and loops he bails.
In the second track 1 3cm hit (i think it got his control cables) and he bails.
Theres bugs in all these games. FB AH WBS wwiiol and any other game you can think. Theres only 1 game where the bugs were so bad I wont ever play again. Thats wwiiol.
AH used be fun for me. I enjoyed logging in and finding some quick a2a fun. Now its about war winning and land grabbing. Its not my cup of tea. When AH2:ToD opens up I'll be back in an instant. Bugs and all.
I actually still have an ah sub until Operation Watchtower Frame 4 ends today.
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Originally posted by Batz
Straffo thinks every french or Russian plane is porked in every game that has french and russian stuff. He complained that the French stuff in wwiiol was porked on purpose when everyone knows thats false. Now in il2 I bet he flies Russian planes and claims the CEM is biased.
Nice tirade but full of bull****.
And still pretend the French tank sight are ON PURPOSE porked in WWIIOL and NO OPEL TRUCK of any sort can do 100km/H off road.
Should I go further ? and continue the list of error in WWIIol equipement ,it's not the WWIIol BBS here.
Now you are assuming I have IL2 and FB it's right ,butthey are covered with dust cause I've not any time for this games.
And worst you are assuming I'm a sort of Russianwhiner.
I'm pretty pissed by your post.
For the future instead of posting what you think are my though it would be intelligent to ASK ME BEFORE .
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I have read your whines about the french in wwiiol, I have read your vvs whines in niemen. I know you fly a yak. Your last post was:
You mean unreadable cockpit and hysterical engine management ?
Its logical to assume that in a thread about FB the whine above would be about fb. The only cockpits in FB that are unreadable are some of the vvs ac.
2 + 2 = 4
I see now that your reply was a random undefined whine about something you have no experience with. How silly of me.
2 + X = Y
As for being pissed
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Batz....Your what I mean by "Johnney come lately." I never said the Stuka shouldn't out-turn the P-47- I SAID ROLL. ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course the Stuka will out-turn the very highly wingloaded P-47!!! THE STUKA OUT ROLLS THE P-47 in THAT CRAPPY GAME too. I have two things to say about that survey sim: STUDDER- and LONG LOAD TIMES!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Batz
I have read your whines about the french in wwiiol,
And where they unfounded ?
I have read your vvs whines in niemen.
There was only one intended as a joke I posted by error in a wrong forum.
I know you fly a yak.
I know you also fly lw plane and so ?
Did I whine in this BBS about the performance of the Yak9U/T ?
Your last post was:
You mean unreadable cockpit and hysterical engine management ?
No my post was :
Originally posted by straffo
You mean unreadable cockpit and hysterical engine management ? :D
It's a bit different especially when you look at the ":D" at the end.
Its logical to assume that in a thread about FB the whine above would be about fb. The only cockpits in FB that are unreadable are some of the vvs ac.
2 + 2 = 4
I see now that your reply was a random undefined whine about something you have no experience with. How silly of me.
2 + X = Y
As for being pissed
I'll let the other judge your (IMO flawed) interpretation.
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So, what are your system specs MoMoney?
You haven't posted them here, yet state you have a "high end system" and get stutters & long load times.
I don't have either of those problems, and I don't have a "high end system":
Athlon XP 2000+
768MB PC133 SDRAM
GeForce 4 Ti4200 (300core/545mem)
SB Live!
Win98
Game runs flawlessly, except on the Finland map for several reasons, at the highest detail settings across the board, except not "Perfect" landscape, and at acceptable frame rates... as in above 25.
Do you have roll rate figures for the Stuka vs the P47? Were you fighting AI or humans?
The P40 exploding is a bug, all software has bugs, so why bring up known bugs that are going to be fixed as a point as something sucking? Makes you look kind of like a... well... a dolt.
As for the rest of your rant: Do you have facts and figures pointing out these inconsistencies? If not, then you really have no basis for any of your points.
Oh yeah- and CFSIII sucks a mean d!ck, that's all it does.
-SW
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AKS\/\/ulfe is my new hero.
:D
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CFS3 does sux..out of the box anyway. Since its completely modable. The community has developed some very nice mods and the 1% team has created wonderful Fm’s to replace the crap that was shipped. With all the mods installed- FB does only one thing better than CFS3- slow speed flight-as on approaches and takeoff. I have a AMD 2600 with ½ gig ram and I got the stutters. Lots of people over-there have got the stutters (according to forums). And I will say this again-FB’s is not a ver 1.0 product. Hello is anyone in there??? This sim is Il2-FB ver 1.3. and I’m so glad that Oleg guy is trying to ram the eastern front down everybody throat. I could give a crap about commies vs nazi’s. Give me N. Africa, BOB , Med, hell give me the pacific. 20 versions of the Bf109 and Yak doesn’t do it for me. The sheep over there are so mesmorized by the candy that THEY even think they like the E.Front. Hell- these sheep (more like slaves) are now working on new planes for Oleg. They do the work- he takes the work and sells it. Nice business model. Every time time I fly FB’s I feel like I’m in a Roger Rabbit cartoon. When you fly at 15k+- the cartoon sky is just a joke.
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Oleg told me that he was disapointed and had alot of work remaining.
He also fears HT's ability to not only outcode him, but to whip his arse in Texas Holdem.
What a total europutz!
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"The sheep over there are so mesmorized by the candy that THEY even think they like the E.Front."
You arent seriouly suggesting that they dont actually have an interest in the estern front, it was the biggest combat theater of the war by far and some 3/4 of the war's total casualties took place there and most of the largest ground battles and many of the larger air battles...
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The game isn't the problem with MoMoney, he obviously got it up the butt from Oleg and is pissed he didn't get the obligatory reach around.
-SW
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This sim is Il2-FB ver 1.3. and I’m so glad that Oleg guy is trying to ram the eastern front down everybody throat. I could give a crap about commies vs nazi’s.
Why did you buy the game in the first place? If you don't like the E Front seems ridiculous, or irrational to spend money on it--unless you get a perverse pleasure from being let down.
We have heard your substinitve arguments about the game. Please spare us your rants about everything else.
Anybody create any cool missions for FB. I tell you I love the strafffing action in the game--taking out a coulmn is truely fun. As for the FM I am getting used to them.
jeezy
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Set a camera up near your column and record the track. Set the column up with lotsa trucks. I pretty to see all the little soldiers running away.
The FMB is easy as heck to use.
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I bought Fb's because I knew all of the slaves were hard at work making addons. "Can I have some of Dat CornBread Master OLEG?" I'm hoping sombody will do justice to American Iron. I've seen the work -so far- on the P-47. Sad really- worst pit in the game and a horriable FM.
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I think the creators of both FB and AH have done a great job.
The 2 sims are the 2 leading onlins WWII sim on the net.
The 2 have its + & - like us pilots;).
To give constructiv feed back is well know as big help for the developers. I think they deserve at least that;).
I love the details and sound in FB;).
But no one can beat AH multi player function and mission alonge with its exelent inbuilt vox in the game;).