Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Silat on May 14, 2003, 11:16:20 AM
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Thanks AKAK:}
http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/p-38_lightning/p-38_lightning_3.asp
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Just doing my part to enlighten the masses :D
Ack-Ack
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'fowler flaps could be used out to 250mph'
baaaa HTC! :D
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I found the part about turning with 1 engine interesting!
Swapping ends?!? Turn on a dime?!?
Haven't tried a 1 engine turn in AH yet but hmmmmm...
Heard it made little difference!?!
Has HighTech seen this? An actual pilot evaluation done recently?
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quote: "Making tight turns and loops was so easy that I grinned involuntarily."" BY THE LATE JEFF ETHELL"
I grinned involuntarily whole time I was reading that artical. That would be a dream come true to fly one of them badboys.
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lol that was the name of the artical I didnt even see that A dream come true
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I never fly P38s, but I fight them. Some experiences from a Luftwobble:
- P38 outturns all 109s after the F. It outturns all 190s. You can hang in a turn in the 110.
- She outaccellerates the LW planes at low speed generally.
- She`s too slow for the 109G10 and all 190s.
This makes it a nasty experience to get caught by a higher 38. A lower 38 can, if it`s not Fester, easily be shot up with BnZ.
DO NOT GO VERTICAL BEHIND A CO-E 38 UNLESS YOU KNOW YOU`LL NAIL HIM. Nuff said.
She`s a tough b**ch, too - just killed one in a 190A8. 5 20mm and about 10 13mm hits smoked her right engine. The finishing blow was conducted with mgs only first - 100 rounds went into that same wing at 50yds. Before I overshot, I added the cannon for a half-second. Only then the wing ripped off.
The good thing about the P38 is that inexperienced Pilots can be suckered into a disatvantageos situation easily. Then you can proceed to BnZ it to death.
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Originally posted by akak
Just doing my part to enlighten the masses :D
Ack-Ack
Shhhh.... :D
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Tragic that Jeffrey Ethell was killed in a Lightning. But I suppose given the choice it's the only way to go.
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His engine managment seemed not to be that natural.
poor guy
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lastnight I was experimenting with the P38 and using multiple throtles, I could not find it to help me though. I was not sure how it could. All it would do is make the plane unstable or goofy to fly. Does anyone fly the p38 using multiple throttles and if do how do you do it or how do use multi control of the engines to an advantage.
FBsmokey
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Flying the p38 from 1.02 without dualthrotlle
never felt i needed it.
The p38 is a very good plane maybe the best in the MA.
Topspeed isn't everything
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Originally posted by mia389
lastnight I was experimenting with the P38 and using multiple throtles, I could not find it to help me though. I was not sure how it could. All it would do is make the plane unstable or goofy to fly. Does anyone fly the p38 using multiple throttles and if do how do you do it or how do use multi control of the engines to an advantage.
FBsmokey
I used a dual throttle for a couple of months to see if there was any benefit but I couldn't find one and went back to my Pro Throttle.
Ack-Ack
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it doesnt help in reversals? near flat hammerheads? offset HOs?
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dont listen to akak, he still thinks the C47 is a recon 38 ;)
Engines do help the P38 a lot, but its not like using 1 engine to turn will give you a super advantage.
Engine tricks with the 38:
-Turning: Lower throttle of engine on the side you are turning to 50% or lower while using rudder. This increases your instantaneous turn rate by about 10% and your continous turn rate by about 5%. Do not attempt this at speeds under 200mph unless you have your flaps out, the 38 will stall rather nasty in a sustained, 200mph or slower, no flaps continous turn.
-Sciscors: for some reason, lowering 1 engine to 50% or below while sciscoring (the engine on whos'e side you're twisting that is) gains you angles much faster. High danger of spinning though, attempt with 1 flap out at least.
-Hammerheads: Yawsh almighty! :D Trim elevator down to the "L" , point nose up 90 degrees, WEP the purty allisons and hang it to 10mph.. cut 1 engine to 0 throttle, rudder hard to its side with a little down-nose pressure, when nose points down cut remaining engine and put the other engine to max with a little rudder to counter your inertia, then put slam both engines to max. This makes your 38 literally flip sideways, without the dangerous nose-over that exposes your entire planform to the enemy thats stalling behind you. Extremely effective if done right, and best of all, since the 38 is a dragpotato, you can make "snap" hammerheads by cutting both engines and pointing nose up, flipping sideways and faceshooting that con that you just cant seem to get off your arse.
Note: The "snap" hammerhead is also very effective as a means to escape. The 38 will go from 400mph to 10mph extremely fast when engines are at 0 throttle and nose up, while any other plane in the set retains its energy almost twice as long. So in a fight that you *need* to get away from, you just dive to get speed, then snap-hammerhead ; the con in your 6 will not slow down, but will rather try and loop over to make another pass... which means that while he is going up and slowing down, your 38 is diving away at 400+ and by the time the con flips over the top of his loop, you will be at d1.8+ and have a good chance to get away. Priceless for a plane that can only outrun early war planeset :)
- Controlling engines also helps a lot when your 38 has lost a wingtip or has aleirons shot out. engines=aleirons if you get both aleirons shot out, and engine control+flap = a wingtipless 38 that can fly and land home safely.
- Stalls: In the RARE event that you stall your P-38 , you have the option of throttling 0% the engine opposite to your spin to regain control. Also, in a FLAT spin, a quick way to recover is to cut one engine, which makes the wing dip down and point your nose downwards.
Note: I have a training film of the hammerhead and "snap" hammerhead if anyone wants it.
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Anyone has real charts from p38s?
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F4UDOA and Widewing are endless sources of charts.
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thnx OIO
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By the way this guy made a videotape flying the P38 around. I have it at home; pretty nice.
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Originally posted by RatPenat
Anyone has real charts from p38s?
BadBoy (Badz) has a crap load of charts he made, think you can find those on SimCentral and or on NetAces.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by OIO
Note: I have a training film of the hammerhead and "snap" hammerhead if anyone wants it.
I'd like a copy of your films. My email addy is in my profile. Thanks :c)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Puck
By the way this guy made a videotape flying the P38 around. I have it at home; pretty nice.
I have that video too. He did a good job in remaking the original P-38 flight training film and is a must for any dedicated P-38 driver.
Ack-Ack
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U guys work to hard , just stay at 20k and zap the low flying bastages. All that throttle talk is giving me a headache.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I have that video too. He did a good job in remaking the original P-38 flight training film and is a must for any dedicated P-38 driver.
Ack-Ack
AKAK is that the film that teaches landing takoffs and manuvers in P38 you had put up. Think it was a old training film I rember was in black and white i think.
And the trottle thing gets me messed up more than it does help me. Ive tried and tried but end up stalling out more than ever lol. Only time its really helped me is with parts of my plane missing and if wanna do 360s on the ground. Thanks for the input though guys.
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Originally posted by mia389
AKAK is that the film that teaches landing takoffs and manuvers in P38 you had put up. Think it was a old training film I rember was in black and white i think.
And the trottle thing gets me messed up more than it does help me. Ive tried and tried but end up stalling out more than ever lol. Only time its really helped me is with parts of my plane missing and if wanna do 360s on the ground. Thanks for the input though guys.
Yep, that's the film.
With controlling both engines, you have to be careful when increasing throttle. When you are in a turn and you cut back on one throttle and then have to slam the throttle to full, you have to cut back your throttle for the other engine first and then advance both throttle to full at the same time. Otherwise you can enter into a viscious snap roll spin, or lose lift one the wing you slammed the throttle to full on. Which is one of the theories on how McGuire crashed his P-38. Don't know if this is modelled in AH but I'm assuming so and so that's what I did when I flew with a dual throttle.
Ack-Ack
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I'll email it tonight when I get home ackack.
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Ill take the film to OIO mia_389@hotmail.com
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Can I get the film also?
snorton@nortonfamily.net
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Originally posted by OIO
I'll email it tonight when I get home ackack.
Thanks. Remember it's the P-38 films I want, not the sheep porn but I'll take those too.
ack-ack
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nay worry. im fluffy!
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akak your profile says you do not want to be sent e-mails, no way to send it to you.
edit: *sigh* i hate hotmail, file size too large.
ill put it up on my geocities server and post a link. hopefully an .ahf file can be copy/pasted into the address bar and be downloaded.
edit2: NM, geocities is dead. Sent the emails using my private e-mail... except for akak, dont have his email. If I get junk from you, you weeeel dieeeee! =P
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I'll take it too OIO.
Here's my email.
richard.gauthier@cablevision.qc.ca
thanks in advance.
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OIO,
I sent you an email through the link in your profile. But, just in case you don't get the message, I would appreciate it if you would send me the 38 films as well.
Thank you,
F4i
butcherbird@adelphia.net
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sent. 2 meg file.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
His engine managment seemed not to be that natural.
poor guy
I have heard from a very reliable source close to Ethell and the guy who rebuilt the plane that it had nothing to do with engine management.
For some reason, the canopy was off, Jeff was out of his harness, and the fuel switches were in the wrong position. There was a fire in the center nacelle, where there should have been no fire. Evidence points to a fuel leak in the very modified fuel system (all the tanks had either been removed or replaced with plain aluminum tanks that were not P-38 type tanks) that starved the engine and also caused a fire. The ONLY reason to have the canopy off and be out of your harness is an attempt to bail. Jeff was at less than 1000 feet when he went into the flat spin. People who would know say Jeff was trying to get away from a fire.
Word has it that Bruce Pruett, owner of the plane Ethell was killed in, is suing Jack Erickson, the guy that rebuilt both Pruett's plane (it was natural aluminum finish) and the plane Ethell flew in the videos (an olive drab plane owned by Erickson). The deal was that Pruett bought one of the planes, then bought the other to use to learn to tear them down, intending to scrap the second plane. Fast forward 20 years, and Erickson sees both planes. Erickson makes a deal with Pruett to restore one plane in exchange for the other. Ethell learned to fly P-38s in Erickson's plane which was actually finished first, and rebuilt to original specs. A couple weeks or so later, Ethell came back to fly Pruett's plane, it was to be flown to the P-38 Assn Reunion, and then to the Smithsonian. Ethell was to be the pilot for both flights. There is evidently a dispute between Pruett and Erickson over the fuel system. Pruett specified that the fuel system be modified in the manner described, I understand the dispute MAY be over how well it was done. And the fact that Ethell was flying the plane and evidently unfamiliar with the modifications. A search of the FAA site will get you the crash report.
It is very ironic that if you read that article, you'll see where Ethell commented on the very mistake that killed him. It must be said, to be fair to Ethell, that he was familiar with the fuel system of the P-38, but not THAT P-38.
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Here's my email then if you can't get it from my profile.
josio1@cox.net
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
There was a fire in the center nacelle, where there should have been no fire. Evidence points to a fuel leak in the very modified fuel system (all the tanks had either been removed or replaced with plain aluminum tanks that were not P-38 type tanks) that starved the engine and also caused a fire. The ONLY reason to have the canopy off and be out of your harness is an attempt to bail. Jeff was at less than 1000 feet when he went into the flat spin. People who would know say Jeff was trying to get away from a fire.
I have a love/hate relationship with stories like this. Like in the FB thread with the story of the guy trapped by fire in the B-24 nose turret that kept on firing while his buddies bailed. Gives me goosebumps and I get a knot in my throat.
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Hi all,
Re: The use of differential power to turn a P38.
I know an old fella that is a P38 Ace.
I have asked him about this subject in the past.
He stated that they did in fact experiment with
the right combination of attitude ,airspeed and control inputs
to effect the "flip turn" of the P38.
He stated that they didnt actually use it very often.
BUT, when you got all the moves down right,
the 38 would go from a nose up climb for a rope a dope
and reverse direction so fast that it was usually a BIG surprise
for the guy on the bottom.
IF I remember correct he said they preferred to reduce power on
the left engine and mash left rudder to get the reversal started.
>S< Deviant
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see my film deviant.
its that move im sure ;)
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Im guessing the film is available by email only.
Send to flynvrtd@volcano.net
DV
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will send it when i get home.
BTW, those that received the film... feedback?
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feed back, cool film, I thought that u meant was an actual training film though. Like a black and white one.
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Originally posted by OIO
will send it when i get home.
BTW, those that received the film... feedback?
I never knew that a ewe could contort its body in so many ways.
Good film too. I wonder if Lowell did the same thing when he performed the cloverleaf maneuver to get inside that Spitfire Mk XI he had a mock dogfight with.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by OIO
BTW, those that received the film... feedback?
The file is in my email, but I haven't had a chance to look at it, yet. I'm looking forward to seeing it in the next few days. :cool:
F4i
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Tragic that Jeffrey Ethell was killed in a Lightning. But I suppose given the choice it's the only way to go.
It would have been preferrable if Ethell had not destroyed an aircraft that he was not legal to fly, and one he had not bothered to learn the systems operations on. Fuel management means learning how an aircrafts specific fuel system works, and then making damn sure you keep the engines running by not running a tank dry when flying low and slow.
dago
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what are you talking about akak? theres only hammerheads on that film.
And my bad, its an AH FILM "training" film for the hammerheads on the 38, not a WW2 training film from the army air corps.
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Originally posted by Dago
It would have been preferrable if Ethell had not destroyed an aircraft that he was not legal to fly, and one he had not bothered to learn the systems operations on. Fuel management means learning how an aircrafts specific fuel system works, and then making damn sure you keep the engines running by not running a tank dry when flying low and slow.
dago
I'm sure Ethell would have preferred not to crash a P-38 and die in the process. Suggest you read my post above. While Ethell was not at all without fault in the crash, it was also very likely caused by one or more failures in the plane related to its modified fuel system. Ethell was familiar with the fuel system of the P-38, but the plane he was flying (this was his first hop in that plane) did not have the original P-38 fuel system.
I have both the FAA report and the synopsis of same, without pictures. What it basicly says is that Ethell failed to get himself and the plane out of a bad situation. While it blames Ethell for running the reserve tanks dry, it makes no real mention of the fact that the fuel system did not operate in the way the normal P-38 fuel system operated. It does however make note of the fact that Ethell successfully operated the other P-38 in the simulated engine out emergency situation. You have to wonder why he couldn't operate the P-38 in question as well as he did the other P-38.
More than one person who is a pilot and would know, including one who was in a serious dispute with Ethell at the time of his death says the FAA seriously botched the investigation. One mentions the fact that there was fuel present inside the cockpit resulting in the fire, and that there is good solid evidence that this was the case BEFORE the actual crash, that the fire was in progress in the cockpit in flight. He further states that evidence suggests that the fact that the tank switches were in the reserve position only because that is where Ethell stopped in his frantic search for fuel.
He also stated that Ethell was in fact not in his harness and not attached to the seat, and that the seat was not torn out of its mounts. The fact that several witnesses state clearly that the plane fell nearly straight down, and the fact that the plane made little or no forward or lateral motion after striking the ground has led more than one expert to believe that Ethell could not possibly have been thrown forward and out of the cockpit as suggested by the report. Experts say it is far more likely that Ethell was trying to escape the fire rather than being thrown from the plane. Having been on the scene of several plane crashes and noting that it is in fact very rare for passengers or pilots to be thrown free of the wreckage in far more violent crashes in civilian aicraft I'd have to agree. The military harness and seat in a P-38 is built and rated to withstand far higher G loads than civilian private aircraft. To think that it completely failed in a zero G straight down crash ejecting its occupant through a canopy (without crushing his skull I might add here) to land several feet away is rather strange. I've seen Cessnas and Pipers crash going around 100+ MPH forward and down, and never throw occupants out.
There are far more questions left unanswered by the FAA investigation than were answered by it. While there is little doubt that pilot error was a major contributing factor, there were other factors involved that were not thoroughly investigated. And never will be. Several experts on the P-38 have been questioning what really happened.
The most damning evidence is that a P-38, which was clearly salvageable, was cut into tiny pieces and sold for scrap metal at a price of a few cents a pound immediately upon the FAA releasing the wreckage. There were P-38 owners seeking parts of that aircraft that would have payed ten times what the plane brought as scrap metal for single pieces of the airframe. You have to wonder why a relatively intact plane with a salvage value in excess of $250K was cut up into small pieces and sold for less than $0.50 per pound (around $4K is the price I've heard). Word has it the Kermit Weeks and the CAF offered a lot more money than that for it. I know for a fact that four fuselages and two tails, with no engines, one prop, a few guages, one control column, a couple of seats, and less than one full set of wheels and tires brought $70K+. Read the FAA report with regards to the condition of the plane and then ask yourself why it was sold in small pieces for scrap.