Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Furball on May 16, 2003, 09:30:26 AM
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I was wondering what you Americans think of the death penalty in your country?
Don't get me wrong this isn't another bash America post, im just curious as it seems most other, if not all western nations have abolished the death penalty and wondered what you think about it.
Personally - i think letting someone rot in jail for the rest of their lives is much better punishment than just killing them.
Although i agree that some criminals deserve to die - as slowly and painfully as possible (child abductors and paedophiles come to mind).
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Against
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I am not in it to torture people. If an animal is deranged you put it down.
I don't trust our legal system or prison system to keep some of these animals in prison "for life" even the term "life in prison" means 10 or so years. I have never seen an executed man kill anyone after being executed.
So.. why should someone in prison be sujected to this guy just because he broke a law? I mean... these guys kill AFTER they go to jail. Nope... put the guy out of his misery and do everyone a favor. Better luck in his next life I say.
I would like the burden of proof to be higher and when there is evidence such as dna... the execution process streamlined.
lazs
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Furball: Personally - i think letting someone rot in jail for the rest of their lives is much better punishment than just killing them.
At who's expence?
Who covers the risk of their escaping or being freed by some legalistic twist, some change in politics, governour/presidential parole, etc?
Do we want terrorists attacking our state with impunity since once it falls, they will be freed? Wouldn't that invite more attacks by reducing risk/increasing reward for them? Isn't that exactly what happened with Nelson Mandela and his comrades? Jewish terrorist in pre-Israel days?
How about Vadimir Lenin in Russia?
He was "punished" with exile to the countryside few times by Romanovs. Do you know what he did with Romanovs when their dynasty falled and thousands of bolshevics - Stalin among them - returned from lavish imprisonment and exile? What they did to Russia? How they punished their enemies - real and imagined?
miko
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For the death penalty.
Death penalty and of course, guns!
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Against but for only when complete guilt or admittion of guilt is the case. It costs a lot to keep the F%^ks alive. And i for one get sick of paying for it. Not to mention these fools also get to be on the "organ reciever" lists to keep the alive longer, Which takes away from the pool of Good citizens who need these.
My 2 cents
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Im for it if its premeditated murder or murder resulted from criminal action (aka robber with gun and his gun goes off accidentally and kills somoene), rapists (again, i'd say premeditated rape... if a girl is dead drunk and the guy is drunk too and they nasty, thats not exactly premeditated rape) and child molestors
It is those 3 that become repeat offenders oftenly after serving their decades long sentences. And its those 3 that completely destroy lives.
Imo, the last 2 murder the soul and should be treated accordingly.
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Tough question...
It's very expensive to keep someone in prison for life. But how can you weigh cost against a human life in some instances.
However, Pedophiles are by their own admission incurable. Serial killers are the same way. Should they ever be released or escape, they will continue to follow their urges until the day they die.
I think these types of people should be executed as they serve no other purpose than to be a menace to society.
As far as some of the other types of individuals on death row, I'm not so sure they should be executed. It's a tough call.
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very much for the death penalty, but they need to fix the system.....
have a system of checks and balances. double check, and triple check to make sure they are really guilty, and limit the appeals, and time in jail, and the death penalty will be MUCH less expensive then life in prison.
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Originally posted by BEVO
very much for the death penalty, but they need to fix the system.....
have a system of checks and balances. double check, and triple check to make sure they are really guilty, and limit the appeals, and time in jail, and the death penalty will be MUCH less expensive then life in prison.
The system already has all these checks, that's why it can take decades to put a varmint to sleep.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
The system already has all these checks, that's why it can take decades to put a varmint to sleep.
ra
And there are still over 100 cases of innocent men on death row over the past 30 years.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
And there are still over 100 cases of innocent men on death row over the past 30 years.
how many guilty people on death row in the last 30 years (what percentage of death row inmates are/were innocent in the past 30 years?) how many of those over 100 were executed before they were deemed to be innocent?
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What percentage of innocent deaths would you deem significant?
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GrimCO: But how can you weigh cost against a human life in some instances.
Easy. Wealth is conducive to life. You spend money on saving lives (hours lost per year) in one area untill marginal efficiency of each dollar spent drops below that in other areas. Then it makes more sense to spend money in different area.
You can spend on nutrition, childcare, jusisial, drug research, safer cars, better public transport, prisons, better houses, etc.
Saving one live at expense that could have saved several lives if spent elsewhere is plainly criminal.
Resources are limited and you have to move them around. Saying that no cost is too great to save a human life is demagogery on politician's part - especially if that cost to save one human life involves loss of several human lives.
However, Pedophiles are by their own admission incurable.
Chemical/surgicl castration.
miko
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US highway motorists kill more people in a single week than the US has executed in the last 30 years.
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midnight Target: And there are still over 100 cases of innocent men on death row over the past 30 years.
How does that compare to the traffic deaths? Should we abandon cars and airplanes? What human undertaking is perfect?
miko
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What human undertaking is so easily perfected? We could reduce the number of innocent executions to ZERO easily.
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STARKE - Newton Carlton Slawson (http://news.tbo.com/news/MGA2L3J5SFD.html) , convicted of killing four members of a Tampa family and a fetus, was executed by injection Friday after a 13-hour delay while his mental competency was questioned.
Slawson, 48, was convicted in the April 11, 1989, shooting deaths of Gerald and Peggy Wood, who was 8 1/2 months pregnant, and their two young children, Glendon, 3, and Jennifer, 4. Slawson sliced Peggy Wood's body with a knife and pulled out her fetus, which had two gunshot wounds and multiple cuts, court records show
14 years living off the tax payers sweat is about 13 years 6 months too long for me
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Originally posted by midnight Target
What human undertaking is so easily perfected? We could reduce the number of innocent executions to ZERO easily.
I would love for it to be zero. At the same time, though, I cannot condone letting people who murder families live out the remainder of their natural lives on my tax dollars. If you can give me an alternative to capital punishment where truly guilty multiple murderers do not suck state/federal dollars for the rest of their natural lives, I'd be more than happy to back your alternative.
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Executed Despite Doubts About Guilt
There is no way to tell how many of the over 750 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some of those with strong claims include:
Roger Keith Coleman Virginia Conviction 1982 Executed 1992
Coleman was convicted of raping and murdering his sister-in-law in 1981, but both his trial and appeal were plagued by errors made by his attorneys. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to consider the merits of his petition because his state appeal had been filed one day late. Considerable evidence was developed after the trial to refute the state's evidence, and that evidence might well have produced a different result at a re-trial. Governor Wilder considered a commutation for Coleman, but allowed him to be executed when Coleman failed a lie detector test on the day of his execution.
Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction 1986 Executed 1997
New DNA blood evidence has thrown considerable doubt on the murder and rape conviction of O'Dell. In reviewing his case in 1991, three Supreme Court Justices, said they had doubts about O'Dell's guilt and whether he should have been allowed to represent himself. Without the blood evidence, there is little linking O'Dell to the crime. In September, 1996, the 4th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals reinstated his death sentence and upheld his conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review O'Dell's claims of innocence and held that its decision regarding juries being told about the alternative sentence of life-without-parole was not retroactive to his case. O'Dell asked the state to conduct DNA tests on other pieces of evidence to demonstrate his innocence but was refused. He was executed on July 23rd.
David Spence Texas Conviction 1984 Executed 1997
Spence was charged with murdering three teenagers in 1982. He was allegedly hired by a convenience store owner to kill another girl, and killed these victims by mistake. The convenience store owner, Muneer Deeb, was originally convicted and sentenced to death, but then was acquitted at a re-trial. The police lieutenant who supervised the investigation of Spence, Marvin Horton, later concluded: "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." Ramon Salinas, the homicide detective who actually conducted the investigation, said: "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." No physical evidence connected Spence to the crime. The case against Spence was pursued by a zealous narcotics cop who relied on testimony of prison inmates who were granted favors in return for testimony.
Leo Jones Florida Convicted 1981 Executed 1998
Jones was convicted of murdering a police officer in Jacksonville, Florida. Jones signed a confession after several hours of police interrogation, but he later claimed the confession was coerced. In the mid-1980s, the policeman who arrested Jones and the detective who took his confession were forced out of uniform for ethical violations. The policeman was later identified by a fellow officer as an "enforcer" who had used torture. Many witnesses came forward pointing to another suspect in the case.
Gary Graham Texas Convicted 1981 Executed 2000
On June 23, 2000, Gary Graham was executed in Texas, despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available.
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midnight Target: What human undertaking is so easily perfected? We could reduce the number of innocent executions to ZERO easily.
It sounds tempting.
Your math is not accurate, though. There is quite a number of innocents that are killed each year by criminals released from prison.
Also a few extra million dollars that the state diverts towards maintaining an extra jail is bound to kill some innocents through worse road repair or less police on the street, etc..
You can raise taxes of course to cover both expences, but then families will have less money for food, healthcare, better housing and newer cars etc. and a few extra innocents are going to end up dead anyway.
Certainly you can raise taxes on rich only but that will cause them to reduce their entrepreneural activities and investing which will result in people losing jobs and having less money for food and healthcare and moving into crime-ridden public housing and some innocents are going to end up dead.
The amount of resources is limited and diverting them from productive use reduces the total number available for redistribution, no matter how tight you close your eyes not to see the side effects.
miko
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too bad they shut down ole Sparky (http://www.polkonline.com/stories/111299/sta_chair_flap.shtml) - think it made the animals last days alittle less enjoyable.. sumpin for them to thunk bout, instead of just falling asleep at the end.
(http://www.polkonline.com/images/111299/the_chairLR.jpg)
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MT
instead of killing them, can we ship their crazed tulips to CA to live off your nickel? how bout building a prison to house them within earshot of your home, sound good?
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I think murderers and traitors and child rapists deserve execution. But even one innocent person executed is too many. If we give them life without parole, at least we can release them if new evidence clears them of the crime. I'd be for the death penalty otherwise, but the statistics are just too ugly, particularly in Illinois. Too many innocent men on death row.
(In Illinois, since the death penalty was reinstated, 12 men were executed, and 13 men on death row were found innocent. I.e. the likelihood that a death row inmate would be executed was about equal to the chance that he was innocent. Completely unacceptable.)
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Originally posted by Eagler
MT
instead of killing them, can we ship their crazed tulips to CA to live off your nickel? how bout building a prison to house them within earshot of your home, sound good?
CA has the death penalty, Einstein.
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My math is accurate miko, your reading comprehension is wanting. I said zero INNOCENT EXECUTIONS.
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Ya know if we stopped putting millions in jail for victimless crimes (drugs), we wouldn't have any problem paying for life imprisonment for all the people on death row...
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Anyone remember a recent new article
About the company doing DNA tests to get guys off death row, was "accidental" contaminating evidence?
I cant remember where I read it, but they said it was all handles wrong and the guys that got off because of it where prolly guilty...
Anyone else here it?
Hey MT, if it was fool proof, and no one innocent would die would you be for it? I would.
But you are right, if we can not guarantee a person was guilty then lock them up for life.
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I read somewhere that a capital execution cost a huge amount of money, is that correct?
Someone have figures about it?
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midnight Target: My math is accurate miko, your reading comprehension is wanting. I said zero INNOCENT EXECUTIONS.
Oh, sorry. My mistake on not catching up to your little word play.
Once you count those faceless dead by government tax decree as "natural causes" or accidents and other specific people put to death death in prison by government decree as "executions", you can make a distinction and strive for "zero executions" - innocent or otherwise, while the rest of us picks up a tab in human lives lost.
We don't matter, right - after all we are not "executed", just killed by redistributive policies you propose.
If you are so cincerned with labels, I have a cheaper solution for you. Rename judicial killings from "executions" to something else and your goal of "zero INNOCENT EXECUTIONS" is achieved instantly. How about "terminations"?
miko
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" A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life imprisonment.
In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life imprisonment. "
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html
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I'm for the death penalty, for many of the same reasons miko is. If you've proven you can't co-exist with the rest of society, you shouldn't be able to. I also shouldn't have to support you.
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Lot of people saying how expensive it is to keep people locked up for life, but the endless appeals of Death Row inmates probablt costs as much or more.
I'm personally for the death penalty, however. Now, with DNA analysis becoming more and more accepted, I think the chances of innocent people being executed is steadily diminishing.
I'm also in favor of states temporarily halting executions where DNA samples from the crimes are available, but haven't been tested. Just a double check - test the samples and be 100% sure.
I also think rapists and pedophiles should undergo mandatory castration....
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Originally posted by midnight Target
" A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life imprisonment.
In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life imprisonment. "
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html
Interesting, if correct.
BTW, what I always tought about it can be condensed in 2 concepts.
First, as for my catholic education (even if I am no more a believer), life is sacred, being a person, or an institution to perpetrate it, a murder is a murder.
In my opinion a state cannot ask the people to not kill, and then being a killer itself.
Second, there's a fundamental difference between almost the entire Europe law enforcing concept, and US one, in the former the concept used is to recover the individuals to a social behaviour, in the latter the concept is punishment/revenge.
Wrong, right?
I dont know, I have "the feel" that death penalty is wrong, even if sometime the human evilness is emotionally shocking.
But a state cannot be "emotional", correct?
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Why not execute those that have deprived an innocent of their life, a parent their child, a child their parent, a spouse his or her spouse.
I can think of no good reason not to deprive someone of their existence if they have coldly and cruelly denied someone else theirs.
I have no qualms with pulling the switch myself.
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For the death penalty. However, I'm not completely sure we'll ever make it foolproof. And that's what it needs to be. I don't agree with just doing away with it forever. Every time some innocent person on death row is discovered, that tells me that the system of checks and balances is working. Just the same as any other innocent person in jail is released. But the system needs more work and more refinement. Things it will never get enough of. The legal system as a whole is an organism that is in constant refinement and change. Usually things get better. This is the goal we have to shoot for. I don't think we'll ever be able to keep innocent people off death row. Mistakes will be made. Just like we'll never be able to keep innocent people out of jail (and this comes from someone whose job it is to put people in jail). But we must work to make sure that if they are innocent, checks and balances exist to keep them from the gallows (so to speak).
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Originally posted by AKIron
Why not execute those that have deprived an innocent of their life, a parent their child, a child their parent, a spouse his or her spouse.
I agree with that, but unfortunately there are a lot of people on death row who don't fit that description.
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Dune, the problem today is that the "checks and balances" today tend to be from private sources like the ACLU or the SPLC.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I agree with that, but unfortunately there are a lot of people on death row who don't fit that description.
I don't about other places but in Texas you don't get executed without having been convicted of 1st degree murder, which I described.
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One of my favorite quotes is by FLA AG Bob Buttersworth:
"People who wish to commit murder better not do it in the State of Florida, because we may have a problem with our electric chair."
After several inmates caught fire while the chair was in use.
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There are plenty of people who are convicted of murder but did not do the crime. Do a google search for "illinois death penalty" if you doubt me.
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Originally posted by funkedup
There are plenty of people who are convicted of murder but did not do the crime. Do a google search for "illinois death penalty" if you doubt me.
None of those folks are exactly "model citizens" anyway.
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I missed the part of Constitution where it said rights apply only to "model citizens". :)
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The numbers show that often a trial's outcome has less to do with the defendent's guilt/innocence than it does the size of the defendent's pocketbook and their ability to afford effective legal counsel. So, until that changes, I am against the death penalty.
I can agree that some criminals are not fit to live. I can understand why victims (or their families) want justice and a sense of closure. I can understand why people don't want to pay to keep these criminals housed, clothed and fed. But those things come only as part of a flawed criminal justice system that sends some guilty people back out on the streets and some innocent people to death row. All the legitimate executions are not worth a single wrongful one, imo.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I missed the part of Constitution where it said rights apply only to "model citizens". :)
I added that in later. I'll send you a copy.
You get what I'm trying to say, though. Basically, I won't shed a tear for a few mistakes.
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I honestly don't know what is right in regards to this issue....there must be a rule of law regarding convicted criminals....just not sure I would want to stand in judgement of such an issue.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
" A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life imprisonment.
In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life imprisonment. "
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html
you believe that I have some land to sell you when the tide goes out ...
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Originally posted by funkedup
I missed the part of Constitution where it said rights apply only to "model citizens". :)
Shoulda stayed awake in Civics Class then huh?
;)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Ya know if we stopped putting millions in jail for victimless crimes (drugs), ...
In 1991, more than 60% of ALL crime reported in the state of Ohio was drug related (burglary, theft, assault). How is the drug industry a victimless crime?
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Said it before and likely will again, I'm all for eliminating the death penalty just as soon all cold blooded murderers are eliminated.
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"burglary, theft, assault"
There is nothing "drug related" about those crimes. Perpetrators of those crimes should be punished just like any other criminal.
As far as victimless crimes...
If a person chooses to consume a chemical or plant that the state doesn't want him to consume, how is he victimizing anyone?
If a person grows a plant in his backyard that the state doesn't want him to grow, who is he victimizing?
If an educated consenting adult buys a plant or drug from somebody, fully willing and knowing the risks, who is the victim?
There are hundreds of thousands of people in jail for doing the things above. A national tragedy and a horrendous waste of resources.
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midnight Target: " A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life imprisonment.
In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life imprisonment. "
Now you are talking sense! If those numbers are true, my arguments become invalid and imprisonment more efficient. BTW, both exacution and imprisonment seem awfully expensive. How much is it for "killed while trying to escape"? :)
Would it be OK with you if a public collected money in some exceptional cases to cover that $2.6 million gap between imprisonment an execution? Like charity, only the other way? :D
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
[B How much is it for "killed while trying to escape"? :)
[/B]
Yeah - and here in California (especially Sacramento) the jails keep getting sued for not preventing inmate suicides....
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Originally posted by midnight Target
" A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life imprisonment.
In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life imprisonment. "
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html
streamline the process. It shouldn't cost more to try a murder suspect if the sentence asked for is death vs life imprisonment. The trial costs should be the same. Though I guess the argument is it's ok to have the guy with life sit in jail for awhile before we attempt to exonerate him. He's got nothing but time.
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lol wtg furball
can always relie on a fellow brit to stir things up ;)
what can i say?
in the last few years here in the uk we have had people freed from jail for crimes it was found they had'nt commited.
these people would have been hung if we still had our death penalty.
we are supposed to have one of the best legal systems in the world.
we have a woman holding a sword in one hand a scales in the other and she is blindfolded.
it means that justice is blind to who you are or what you are and that the evidence will be weighed and justice will be given.
and there lies the first contradiction.
we all know that there are two laws not one.
and the justice and punishment you receive depends on your standing within your or someone elses country.
i believe child murderers should be executed. but in that case all murderers should be. murder is murder the victims are just as dead child or adult.
in these days of dna evidence there should be no mistakes made.
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I'm for. I have had to deal with some of these "people". I have had to deal with the results of their actions and the survivors. I find there is a definite guarantee of no recidivism on the part of those who are executed. I find there is all too much recidivism on the part of those who are not executed. I find there is no such thing as escape proof and for those with nothing to lose there is no reason not to kill again. Nothing to lose cuts two ways, it can mean no hope or no fear of further penalty. Either way makes it no deterant NOT to kill again.
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I'm for the death penalty, but I am against Lethal Injection, Electroction, and Gas.
The most environmentally friendly method is a Hemp Rope.
Its reusable, recycleable, emits no greenhouse gasses, (as the production of electricity can cause) and no poisonous substances are used which could leech into groundwater.
The body remains relatively undamaged, so the remains can be parted out. You can't donate the neck skin, but who needs a neck skin transplant anyway?
I'm sure this is the preferred method of Greenpeace and the Sierra Club, but I am uncertian about Amnesty International.
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The death penalty is just wrong. There are people on death row who shouldnt there. Their life isnt worth risking to satisfy the vengeance of the surviving victims in another case.
As MT stated
And there are still over 100 cases of innocent men on death row over the past 30 years.
Most of these have been identified by 1 small group with a limited budget. Imagine if they had the same resources as the folks who sent convicted umm.
Life imprisonment maybe brutal for the wrongly accused but you havent killed him.
Most of the money spent on convicting crimanals in death penalty cases is spent by the prosecuters.
I would agree some people just need to be killed but how many innocent folks should be killed along the way?
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"We gown ta give ya a fair trial, then we gown hang ya."
-Judge Roy Bean