Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hogenbor on May 19, 2003, 09:07:39 AM
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Last weekend I did a bit of flying. I noted on several occasions attacking Jabos, mostly P-38's, P-51's but also a lone Hellcat who really didn't know their stuff.
On one occasion I took off all alone in a 109G-2 and saw 4(!) P-51's attacking my field. Within seconds three of them bore down and crashed straight into the ground without hitting anything or even (visually at least) releasing bombs. 3 proxy kills without doing hardly anything! The fourth just fled... and I saw more crashes that day that went like this, sadly without proxy kills for me :D I know of suicide dweebs but aren't they supposed to hit something instead of the ground?
Unrelated but great was the time when a guy made feint attacks from 3 and 9 o'clock on a formation of B-26's while calling over vox that 'maybe I could sneak on his six'. Like heck I would! I approached out of reach of the tail guns, pulled up and blasted them all three to pieces within 5 seconds. I love it when that happens :D
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I'm going to take this opportunity to endorse the 109G10 with 30mm in the nose and 20mm on the wings. Fast enough to catch bomb-toting Mustangs and has the firepower to knock out a bomber on 1 pass.
And I love the number of HO kills I can get with this thing without trying, because of the number of new guys that fly straight at me, thinking I only have a single 20mm cannon. :p
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i always see it with p38's attacking a field, a typical sortie goes like this : -
Dive in on airfield from 15k, drop bombs and miss. Then they either pull up and get annihilated by a hoarde of fighters, or never pull out of their original dive and create some nice Moon stylee craters on our nice field.
Don't think i have ever seen one survive a jabo raid! :D
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Is this Goin' Somewhere? Hope you guys don't get hurt patting yourselves on your backs?
1st - The P-51's seems to compress more easiliy here than in any other SIMM. Right?, Wrong? Who knows. The newbies gonna take a while to figure this out.
2nd - Glad you like the G10.
3rd - The P-38 is my favorite JABO ride. It do take some practice to dump da stuff though.
4th - Been here 5+ months. Came from Warbirds after 6 years there. The air is thinner here. Radar is misleading?? I have seen huge red bars and no enema. Consversly as you have seen, one can start his Jabo run and suddenly find TOOO many cons where you didn't think there were many or any.
It would be great if you guys addewd some Newbie tips to this thread.
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Ok, here are some tips:
The P-51 is fast, real fast, with great visibility. But in the Jabo role, there are better planes out there.
My favorite jabo ride is the F4U-1D. You get the same bomb load-out plus 2 more rockets, and its easier (and safer) to aim rockets than to divebomb. 8 rockets will take down a vehicle hangar. If you miss a rocket or two, the F4U-1D's six .50cals can finish the job. The F4U-1D is also more durable than the Mustang and less prone to being shot down by ground fire.
Runner up would be the P47D (the silver version). 10 rockets, 3 bombs, 8 machine guns. Its a single engine bomber.
Compression is the leading cause of death in new guys doing jabo attacks. One way to avoid this is to chop your throttle as soon as you go nose down. I also like to drop 2 notches of flaps, as the sound of the flaps being retracted automatically when you start to get fast acts as a sort of overspeed warning claxon.
When you go in on your run, make sure you release your bombs first, since they weigh more than rockets. If you try a hard pull-out with a pair of 1,000 pounders on your wings, you're liable to self-destruct. Also, if 1 bomb hits and the other misses, you can bat clean-up with a rocket or two and use the other rockets against any ground vehicles that might have upped to defend the field.
When attacking a fresh field, I leave my bombs at home and just bring the rockets. My first run over the field is to take out the flak. The next run is to fire the rockets without worrying about flak. Or, if your target is the vh, then strafe the vh flak on your initial run-in and fire your rockets as you fly past the hangar. You should be able to kill the flak and take down the hangar in 1 pass. After this, work on taking out the AA guns near the runway, then take out the guns at the city (if there's a base capture imminent, otherwise just leave them be).
Don't do a hard pull-out after your run because you'll either pull off your wings or loose too much speed or both. Extend out with a long, sweeping climb to conserve your speed.
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What's up with Jabo newbies?
You sure they weren't just MAWs?
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"You sure they weren't just MAWs?"
Yup !!!
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heres a few tips for jabo on 190s:
Basically if youwant to do a high speed dive without the high risk of compression then start your attack from @10k. From this alt its pretty difficult to compress unless you take a shallow full power dive. This however makes you more vulnerable to interception due to you lack of alt but if you arrive at 10k at a good turn of speed you can usually dodge defenders and punch through.
The 190 is a great aircraft for avoiding ack but you have to get used to jinking in your dives then at last minute rolling level for stable drop.
I prefer to use a long fast shallow attack with 190s but they are also very good for vertical dives. If you want to try the shallow dive make sure you build up a great deal of speed. This way the bomb when realeased has more chance of hitting where you aim and not fall short.I basically dive at 40 degrees nose down, go full power with wep, gently weave in and out of the tracer from ack.As i get close i level my wings (still in dive) steady myself for a stable platform aiming the recticle slightly above the target (never use rudder here it doesnt aftect the direction of the bomb but can fool you into thinking youre on target) pull up slightly and release then extend weaving again and eventually if area clear reverse for second pass. If you are in the 190a8 use 4x20mm but set the guns at a convergence 50 to 100 yards apart.This creates a wider 'box' of hits and means poor accuraccy isnt such a problem.If youre a good shot this doesnt apply much.
A 190a8 with 1x500kg+4x20mm can take down a hanger and still be left with almost 200 rounds of 20mm, its quite a usefull field deacker due to its excellent roll capability.Barrel rolls are usefull on egress from acks too.
Its not to effective with guns vs panzers and flak but 500kg will kill anything, even tiger if you're lucky.
basically its a good hit and run aircraft but it can be used as a vultcher just as easily.
Try burning off your aft fuel tank first with it as it handles much better in the vertical i find when i do this.
Oh bad thing though, get used to landing with half a wing and expect oil damage regularly ;)
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Best Jabo in the game is the Ju88.
It comes complete with dive flaps and carries a bigger load than the B17...
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P47-D, get level speed at 17-18k alt, your very likely to get in, its tuff as nails, holds Alot of firepower & basically doesnt compress. Its so tuff I have reached deck of NME CV on numerous occasion.(ship has been sunk) 8)
Anton
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i dont think 8 hvar rockets will kill a hanger alone, that is only about 1200 lbs of explosives
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Originally posted by gofaster
I'm going to take this opportunity to endorse the 109G10 with 30mm in the nose and 20mm on the wings. Fast enough to catch bomb-toting Mustangs and has the firepower to knock out a bomber on 1 pass.
neah, I don't agree, the 20mm gondolas spoil the G10s main advantage: enuff speed to get the heck away from those La7s ':)
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I guess he was talking about a Vbase hanger. 10 100lb rockets= 1000lbs. Just enough to take out if all of them hit.
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Originally posted by ccvi
Best Jabo in the game is the Ju88.
It comes complete with dive flaps and carries a bigger load than the B17...
Shhhhhhhhhh, don't tell them about the dive brakes;)
And for those of you who might ask, the Ju88 really had dive brakes in the war. At the time it was designed, all bombers were required to be able to dive bomb.
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Dracon, if you see nme darbar and then no dar bar, that most times will mean the nme are attacking an area, and have gone in low to hit the field. Same for seeing no nme in an area, getting low, and running into a boatload of nme Nikis, La7s and spits. They will have just taken off or are circling around their field acks.
Gravity sucks in this sim, and therefore, you will pick up speed very fast on a jabo run. Simply avoid diving straight down onto a target; always go in at least at a 45 degree angle with chopped throttle and (if yer plane has em) dive brakes.
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Originally posted by RightF00T
I guess he was talking about a Vbase hanger. 10 100lb rockets= 1000lbs. Just enough to take out if all of them hit.
Still wrong, VH takes 2k+ and the F4U-1D only carries 8 rockets anyway
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VH at a V-base is 1,000 pounds. VH at an airfield is 2,500 pounds, just like any other hangar.
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Help file states vh at base requires 3,000 lbs.
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Originally posted by Urchin
VH at a V-base is 1,000 pounds. VH at an airfield is 2,500 pounds, just like any other hangar.
This is right.
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Just dive bomb in the 'true' fashion.
Fly over target, observe the target by banking a little bit, and then, roll over 180 degrees, pull stick and go into a split-S.. dive at 70~80 degrees angle - you can confirm the angle by looking out the window. In this angle, all you have to do is put the target directly at your gunsight, and it will hit.
At first, this method actually seems harder than the method where you observe the target, push the stick forward and enter 0G or -G to set up the bomb run. But after a bit of practice, you'll soon realize that this method is a lot more efficient, safe and accurate as well.
The aiming process is far easier - just Split-S over target, aim target at gunsight center, and then fire. Also, if the initial dive angle is correct(which, can be assured through a bit of practice), you don't have to wait for the plane to dive down long.. just a couple of thousand feet dive is enough - no excessive speed caught, not much alt loss, and no need to worry about ack.
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If I understand this correctly, this "Jabo" process is where you put those hangy things under you ride ??????
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WOW!! Now this is Great! I learned a lot!
Kinda glad I jumped in and asked :)
I really appreciate the advice. I hope others do too. It makes giving it even more satisfying.
All
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Originally posted by dracon
WOW!! Now this is Great! I learned a lot!
Kinda glad I jumped in and asked :)
I really appreciate the advice. I hope others do too. It makes giving it even more satisfying.
All
Dracon, there are many MANY old fart WB'ers here, mention your and old fart WB'er and you'll get loads of help.
-vlkn-
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Get your hands on Mino's Jabo sight, and watch your previous 'drop em and hope' turn into surgical precision mayhem.
I just checked the Gunsight Gallery, and Mino's sight isnt there, but there are several that are similar, and no doubt just as effective.
Read the help file for how to use custom gunsights.
Blue
PS I agree with Vulcan, if you're an old fart WBer, and havent spent years bagging AH at every chance, you will get loads of help here.
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Hi dracon
go practice jabo off line, the s/w gives you an aiming point which remains where your bombs will hit.
wipass
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Originally posted by dracon
WOW!! Now this is Great! I learned a lot!
Kinda glad I jumped in and asked :)
I really appreciate the advice. I hope others do too. It makes giving it even more satisfying.
All
Dracon, TA has bombing help available. That is green thing which points where actually your bombs/rockets will hit if you release them. Will help you to get an idea of angles/aim after some practise.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
Get your hands on Mino's Jabo sight, and watch your previous 'drop em and hope' turn into surgical precision mayhem.
I just checked the Gunsight Gallery, and Mino's sight isnt there, but there are several that are similar, and no doubt just as effective.
Read the help file for how to use custom gunsights.
Blue
PS I agree with Vulcan, if you're an old fart WBer, and havent spent years bagging AH at every chance, you will get loads of help here.
Hehehe! As I said above spent 6 years in WarBirds. I downloaded the first AH beta and several there after. Never bagged the SIMM but didn't care much for it. I just got tired of false WBs promises, warps from hell, like totally zero strat. when the numbers finally went to under 50 most nights and I was having to switch sides for balance, then get cussed for doing so I said ENOUGH!! Heard there was almost always 500+ online here so decided to give it a look. Don't know what version made the huge improvement but after 2 days of the free trial I quit the best squad in WBs and closed my account. Been here since. the offered me a free trial month to come back. I asked some now ex-squaddies what had changed. They said NOTHING! E-mail deleted :)
The only thing I miss is the whining on AGW:) Yep, hear a few on this BBS but noting like AGW
I will search for mino's sites
Txs again,
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Originally posted by Boozer
Still wrong, VH takes 2k+ and the F4U-1D only carries 8 rockets anyway
I've taken out the vehicle base south of A214 on Trinity with an F4U1D rockets-only. I don't know what the lethality of a rocket is nor what the armor rating of a vehicle base is, but I've done it. Maybe it was already soft and I didn't know it.
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I read a great article on the P38 on one of the training web sites a while back, and it has helped me survive the dreaded "P38 death dive" effect. My hit rate when dropping bombs still sucks, though--I need to work on getting a STABLE dive going.
Here's the method. Get the plane about 12000 ft. AGL over the target, then:
1. Pull power back to idle prior to going into dive.
2. Dial in full NOSE UP trim. This does 2 things--combat trim goes off, and you get an "auto pull out" effect--the bird will pull up before compression locks you up. You will need to use considerable forward stick to keep the plane in level flight.
3. Dive flaps on.
4. 2 notches of wing flaps on.
5. Wing over or nose over below 200 IAS, preferably below 150.
6. Line up, using NO RUDDER, get a stable dive going at a consistent angle (this is where I screw it up).
7. Drop at 3-4000 AGL.
8. Pull out, extend in a gentle climb. Cycle combat trim to retrim the plane, but turn it back off ( I hate combat trim in the P38).
When I follow my own advice, I hit stuff and survive. If I stay in the dive too long, the plane will accelerate and PULL ITSELF out of the dive.
This method doesn't work well when there are a lot of enemy planes around at the initial altitude; they shoot when you're slow. I guess the fix for that is to bring a friend with a spit.
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Originally posted by rshubert
I read a great article on the P38 on one of the training web sites a while back, and it has helped me survive the dreaded "P38 death dive" effect. My hit rate when dropping bombs still sucks, though--I need to work on getting a STABLE dive going.
Here's the method. Get the plane about 12000 ft. AGL over the target, then:
1. Pull power back to idle prior to going into dive.
2. Dial in full NOSE UP trim. This does 2 things--combat trim goes off, and you get an "auto pull out" effect--the bird will pull up before compression locks you up. You will need to use considerable forward stick to keep the plane in level flight.
3. Dive flaps on.
4. 2 notches of wing flaps on.
5. Wing over or nose over below 200 IAS, preferably below 150.
6. Line up, using NO RUDDER, get a stable dive going at a consistent angle (this is where I screw it up).
7. Drop at 3-4000 AGL.
8. Pull out, extend in a gentle climb. Cycle combat trim to retrim the plane, but turn it back off ( I hate combat trim in the P38).
When I follow my own advice, I hit stuff and survive. If I stay in the dive too long, the plane will accelerate and PULL ITSELF out of the dive.
This method doesn't work well when there are a lot of enemy planes around at the initial altitude; they shoot when you're slow. I guess the fix for that is to bring a friend with a spit.
First off, never use Combat Trim in the P-38. It will hinder you more than it will help you. Second, there is no need to dial up full positive elevator trim before you start your dive on the target. All this will do is force you to apply more forces to keep your nose down on the target without increasing your chances of a hit on the target. As your P-38 speeds up in the dive, you'll have to increase forces on the stick to keep the nose 'level' that you will likely more often than not, improperly line up on the target and either get a near hit or miss it entirely.
The best thing to do is find the approximate neutral trim zone and dial that in. In the P-38L, it is approximately around the the bottom part of the L on the Elevator trim indicator. I agree that you should start your dive around 250-200mph (IAS) and with only rudder movement as necessary to line up on the target (works better in shallow dive bomb attacks rather then with dive bomb attacks). Before you start your dive and you're P-38 has been trimmed to approximate neutral position, engage the dive flaps and roll in on the target and keep your throttle on idle. Pickle your bombs on target and pull out and you'll find your egress from the target to be a lot easier and you didn't waste any energy with any unnecessary trimming.
If you find your P-38's controls start to stiffen up because you've allowed your speed to get too high while in the dive, decreasing throttle will usually be the only thing needed to regain control of your plane (see Zombe's Driving the P-38 thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84898) in the AH Training forums for the proper explanation of compressabililty in the P-38). If in extreme dire cirmumstances, then only a couple of notches of positive elevator trim would be all that is needed to pull you out of a high speed dive when your controls are unresponsive and all the other things have failed to pull your plane out of the dive.
Remember that in the P-38, compressibility is only a danger above 20,000ft and a minor irritant below that altitude.
Ack-Ack