Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bfreek on May 20, 2003, 07:40:51 PM
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You are bound to get all sorts of answers referring to lack of skill and imagination, that it isn't sporting, that it is lame, etc. Most people only hate the HO for one reason and one reason only: they get shot down. Some people can't accept the fact that they actually got shot down in a game.
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Here's a quote from Hasse Wind's fighter tactics lectures. Wind was the second highest scoring european non-German ace with his 75 confirmed victories. You can find his lectures here: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html
It is not wise to try a head-on attack, because the hitting possibilities are the same for you and the enemy.
Camo
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I am just reading Osprey Book's "P-40 Aces of the MTO" and early on it describes how the pilots were trained to do head on passes, since the P-40 wasn't going to win any manuevering contests with the Me109s they were facing. But, they were tough and had good firepower.
Interesting, huh?
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Maybe that's the reason no P-40 pilot ever got 75 kills?
:D
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Seriously though, I think most complaints about HOs come from people confusing front quarter shots and 'true' HO shots.
If the enemy plane managed to shoot you in your face/cockpit area, when you haven't brought your own guns on him yet, simply, he out-maneuvered you. It could be due to luck, or careful judgement by the enemy pilot - nevertheless, the result is he out maneuvered you. There can't be any complaints.
If it was a true HO shot, where both opponents have their guns aiming towards each other's face - then this situation is almost always avoidable. Nobody forced anyone into an unwilling HO - No complaints in this case, either.
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...and then I learned about victory through superior firepower.
When I'm in a FW190A8 or a 109G10 with my Juggernaut Package, I embrace the HO if the other guy is dumb enough to pull into an HO on me (I sure ain't gonna be able to turn away in an overweight, overgunned Luftwaffe plane). When I'm in a Yak9U or 109F, I'll avoid the HO, but in the G10 or A8, I'll embrace the HO attack like a warm, fuzzy blanket on cold, wintry night.
Spitfire IXs, LA7s, and Mustangs seem to try the HO shot a lot more against me than other plane types, but I blame that on the other pilot's lack of experience or overaggressiveness.
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Only time i actually go for the HO is when i see the plane shooting at me from 3k out and i know its a newb.
Or when im upping at a capped field, the way i see it is it only takes me 10 seconds to up again if we both die. They have to fly all the way back to base.
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Originally posted by oboe
I am just reading Osprey Book's "P-40 Aces of the MTO" and early on it describes how the pilots were trained to do head on passes, since the P-40 wasn't going to win any manuevering contests with the Me109s they were facing. But, they were tough and had good firepower.
Interesting, huh?
Wow, very interesting. Finnish Air Force faced a similar situation. The Brewsters were less maneuverable and climbed worse than the I16s and I153s they faced. They were marginally faster though. Wind's lectures were especially intended for Brewster pilots. "How to wage war in the BW"...
The FAF solution for "not going to win any maneuvering contests" was classic BnZ tactics. Attack from above and use the element of surprise. TnB was a big no-no, and head on shots were to be avoided.
Interesting differences in philosophy between the different air forces!!
Camo
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As a defensive tactic i find nothing wrong with it. When you are in a poor turning AC with a higher and/or faster enemy, it's the only move that's gonna alter the situation in your favor. If the other aircraft commits to the HO he makes a bad judgement. A good shot can also HO for obvious reasons. If you seem to lose these engagements you should avoid them. If you still HO you have only yourself to blame. I love HO's btw and rarely "loose", mostly because i also love the A8 :D
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I use the HO (or threat of one) to fight back against the higher/faster fighter when I'm heavy, or slow, or low, or all three.
I think guys that complain about the tactic are simply frustrated that I won't turn away, and take it up the tail so they can feel like "real fighter pilots". :rolleyes: There are ways to avoid the HO, and both pilots have to "agree" before an HO can take place.
A few weeks ago I got into a situation while flying a low, slow, light A20 where I was being attacked by two 109s. I shot both down by flying for a head on with them. It worked. Not my usual performance, of course--I get shot down a lot.:(
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Most people dont like face shooting situations because they are dependent more on twitching movements and luck than any perceieved "skill."
Why would anyone want to fly 20 minutes only be shot in the face without even twisting the stick?
They are easy enough to avoid, and from that point forward you can probably assume your opponent is SOL because he needs to actually gain position on you.
From a mathmatical standpoint, if Im going to engage a con, I dont want the chances to be 50/50 for which one of us goes down (especially within seconds) - I'd much rather the odds be 100/0 in my favor - and if his guns are pointing at me, that isnt the case.
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I fine with someone coming head on and shooting me down. No problem with that.....the thing that gets me is when someone comes Head on and crashes into me, ripping a wing off and not getting himself killed
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Originally posted by bigUC
As a defensive tactic i find nothing wrong with it. When you are in a poor turning AC with a higher and/or faster enemy, it's the only move that's gonna alter the situation in your favor. If the other aircraft commits to the HO he makes a bad judgement. A good shot can also HO for obvious reasons. If you seem to lose these engagements you should avoid them. If you still HO you have only yourself to blame. I love HO's btw and rarely "loose", mostly because i also love the A8 :D
thats fair enough if you are in a bad turning plane and with heavier armament, its the fault of the attacker getting in a HO in those situations
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teh hedon shotz are teh 5uxx04.
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If I am in an aircraft that has a marked performance advantage (manuverability in a Spitfire or A6M, or speed, climb and acceleration in a Bf109G-10 or Fw190D-9) I'll avoid the HO and manuver for the kill. If I'm in a Mosquito or an IL-2 without an E advantage, I'll go for the HO every time.
That said, the whines I see are most often from people who mistake a front quarter shot for an HO. People who never had a firing solution on you, or were actively avoiding obtaining one in the hope that doing so would deny you a firing solution.
Another big group are those who attack inferior air-to-air aircraft (Mosquito, Bf110G-2, IL-2) and expect you to hand them a free kill. They then get upset when you use the tools at your disposal to give yourself the best shot at survival and pull it off.
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Wow, very interesting. Finnish Air Force faced a similar situation. The Brewsters were less maneuverable and climbed worse than the I16s and I153s they faced. They were marginally faster though. Wind's lectures were especially intended for Brewster pilots. "How to wage war in the BW"...
The FAF solution for "not going to win any maneuvering contests" was classic BnZ tactics. Attack from above and use the element of surprise. TnB was a big no-no, and head on shots were to be avoided.
Interesting differences in philosophy between the different air forces!!
Camo, that's probably more a case of apples and oranges. If the Brewesters had x6 .50 cals and heavy armor, and was used mainly in low altitude ground attack, then perhaps Finnish tactics would have been closer to those with the P-40 :) At the time (mid war), the P-40 had a marginal turning(?)/rolling advantage over the 109/190 but no speed or climb advantage. It also didn't have the numbers through much of the early Med. and when used for ground attack was even less likely to have an advantage in either surprise or altitude.
The ultimate philosophy chosen to overcome the P-40's limitations by the US Air Corp was the P-51, P-47 and P-38. I believe the Me-109G was the ultimate solution for the Finns, combined with those tactics. Of course, having some operational discretion on when to engage and when not to engage makes those tactics even more valid :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Furball
Only time i actually go for the HO is when i see the plane shooting at me from 3k out and i know its a newb.
Or when im upping at a capped field, the way i see it is it only takes me 10 seconds to up again if we both die. They have to fly all the way back to base.
Ditto.
Basically, If they don't HO I won't either. When it is over a base melee, anything goes and I understand it. When I am in a 3 on 1 and they have La-7s, hey don't need ot face shoot me and that stuff is for rutabagas.
I have had guys maneuver for the HO when I was in a Val and a Kate--that is pure ***** there.
But if a guy is faced with HO or die, I don't begrudge him the shot.
Sakai
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from what i've seen the 50cals have the best advantage in a HO if they fire early enough like at 1.5-2.0k depending on closure rate, but once into under 1k multi cannon arms obviously rule.
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I don't hate the HO. If someone is in your sites, he is fair game and so take the shot...no matter the aspect ratio. I never take them though, I'm a poor aim and fly the 50-calibre aircraft and it takes too many hits to do any real damage meanwhile I'm most likely headed towards a cannon-equipped opponent. I avoid them. But more power to you.
If you really hate HO's, fly some game with early F-4 Phantoms. No guns and you HAVE to get on someone's tail to fire the Sidewinder. Now that's dogfighting. None of this sissy HO guns WW2 "dogfighting." :D
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I welcome the HO. It gives me a stable target to shoot at. I will go for the HO due to my ACM stinks! Am I embarrassed by this? No. I dont look for a fair fight, just a bad guy to shoot at. I do not try to get into a long ACM dog fight with someone. If I detect my opponent has superior ACM skills I get out of Dodge, fast.
I will shoot at an enemy in the sight ring regardless of aspect. I maneuver my plane's nose toward an enemy to shoot him. If it happens to be an HO, so be it.
If I die in a HO contest, then I die. It is no different form dying in any other type of melee. I send a "Nice Shot!" in the text and take off again.