Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Terror on November 25, 2001, 09:54:00 AM
-
After teading a recent post about someone not being able to loose enough speed to be able to do a landing flare without gaining altitude, a question came to mind "3 Point" or "Wheel" Landing?
Since most of these fighters are taildraggers and are close to the rear CG stability limit, the planes should have a higher landing speed and be landed "flat". Trying to do a full stall, 3 point landing in most of these planes will just lead to a quick ground loop and damage to the plane.
So my recommendation, Use full flaps, use a powered approach (no idleing!), keep the speed up, do a nice flat easy landing flare, and use all the runway ya need.
Any opinions???
Terror
-
I always throttle waaaay back on the final approach, cross the controls (ailerons one way, rudder opposite) to bleed E till I get to about 190-200mph. I'll also lower prop RPM's to about minimum and when I'm less than 200mph I dro pthe gear, that drag helps alot. No problems landing in AH at all. Sometimes I use flaps if I get too slow. However if it's a fast put down that I need (vulchers hovering or on thier way) a couple of low speed barrel rolls, no throttle and one final flare with full flaps works pretty good too :)
Practice with a Zeke. Then once it's under the belt and second nature transition to planes with a higher landing speed.
Westy
-
I always land in a flared, nose up attitude, even on tricycle wheeled planes and buffs.
The *only* time I land "flat" is on CV's (which is probably wrong, but it works).
I find the biggest problem isn't E management, but "bounce management", as I've a bad habit of using flaps as speed brakes (which they're not), so I probably come in a bit hot and then get extra lift on full flaps from ground effect.
Also, a lot of planes will nose stand on the brakes which I think is a bit naff. If a Mustang on full throttle won't pull the nose over against the brakes, then how come full brakes at 20 MPH lifts the tail?
-
I always use full flaps. if im comming in too hot i circle around to bleed off E. My bigest problem is when i land i bounce, and i try to corect it and i go into a wobble and then my plane flips. Eather i blow up or just bust the wings off the damn bird.
another good landing is the ever great belly landing. :D
-
Well, historically they were supposed to land on all 3 wheels. You can check this in certain books or web sites. Even though I could only land fast and on two wheels was all I could manage. Belly landings, no prob...3 point landings...no luck.
-
You can land these things???
Heck, I should try that sometime, I always die fighting. :D
dago
-
Three pointers are easy. The only time I do wheel landings is when I have flap or elevator damage. The only plane I ever ground loop is the Hog, and I think there is a bug with it because it seems to just happen randomly.
If you want challenging landings download the demo of Il-2. I still can't survive a P-39 landing consistently there.
ra
-
I usually chop power to idle or even shut the engine off.
Full flaps with all planes, gear down ASAP, (anything under 400 mph in the Hog).
If I am in a hurry, I usually lang gear-up.
Even the hog has good ground handling on belly landings.
eskimo
-
errr...I just thought of this. Wasn't one of the reasons for recommending doing a 3 point landing because most of the landing fields were just grass strips and bumpy, so if you hit a molehill or a ditch, the prop would get damaged. But with the nose up, the plane would just bounce.
-
Slipping will help you get the plane down faster (rudder one way, ailerons the other) but be careful not to induce a cross-over stall.
The only planes I nose-high in is the Arado, Me262 and F4. The jets use a lot of runway otherwise and the F4 just loves to ground loop so I bring it in on the stall horn. The rest, just slam in there on all 3.
-
3 pointers are no problem. Just pay attention to the stall horn.
During WWII landing on 2 wheels was pretty common. There are a lot of films, photos, and pilot anectdotes describing such landings.
-
er...yeah I'll have to agree with Funkedup. I've seen a lot of footage from those rebuilt WW2 fighters like the Spitfires ot Hurri's at airshows and they nearly all tend to do a two wheel landing. I don't know if it's through lack of skill, the tarmac instead of a grass strip or something else. But I'm pretty sure WW2 pilots were trained to land on all wheels.
-
You can land ANY plane by going to 1k AGL , slowing down to 200 mph , lining up., lowering elevator almost fully down, full flaps down and cut engine, do a glider landing.
-
I don't know if Westy realizes it or not, and BD5 certainly should, but what these two are describing is known as the 'forward slip.' It is a manuever designed to steepen tha angle of descent. If you're looking at the runway and realize you are too high, just cross-control by dropping a wing, and pushing opposite rudder. There is almost no penalty for using full rudder, so the more the merrier (sure helps get the speed down with the jets). The forward slip is actually a nose low manuever, but you can scrub more speed by holding your nose level, or slightly high. Just be careful, as BD5 pointed out, as this can lead to accelerated problems.
The reason you have full flaps is so you can use them in landing. You shouldn't be able to use full flaps for takeoff, as the drag is excessive, but you can get away with it (your procedure becomes more critical, though).
If, you want to do a three point landing, find out what speed your plane stalls at, first. I recommend offline, or the TA for this. Then, in order to find a safe threshold/approach speed, just add thirty percent to the stall speed. As you come across the threshold pick your nose up a tad bit, and watch your speed. With some practice you can get to the point where the stall point and three-point contact coincide. Be careful though, as stalling anywhere below fifteen-hundred feet and above one foot, is very bad!
Also, it is very important that you remember that throttle is altitude, and pitch is airspeed! On approach you don't want to get these two mixed up!
These and other suggestions are available (with film) at the upcoming "unofficial Strategy Guide for Aces High." Web site to be announced.
[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Voss ]
-
Just a note... what I have found works best for the F4U when landing at a field is to try and keep the tail up as long as possible and stay off the brakes until the tail drops.
-
"these two are describing is known as the 'forward slip.'"
Ahh. Thanks. Wasn't sure what it was called but I figured it wasn't anything I'd invented :)
westy
-
if you REALLY need to slow down once you touch your wheels down wrench the yoke hard over and your gear collapses and you slow down REAL fast :D
seriously though 3 point landings are easy for all aircraft for me but to be honest i dont remember how hard it was in those first few weeks in the beta days.I seem to remember it being hard to get a kill(gunnery skills) but the flying side was never a problem as far as i can remember.
-
I don't have the patience to slow down for a 3 point landing, I'm coming in 220-200 real low untill just under 200 and lower gear than gently touch down flat and hit breaks. It is for me the quickest way to land and I have a clear view on the runway.
Works for all planes except the f4u for me, I need to come in slower (160), flaps out flat land it and let it roll to under 100mph before I hit the breaks. If I hit the breaks too early in f4u I spin around.
-
well then, it's wrong, cos the max you could extend gear in a spit was 160mph..on a Hurri it was 120mph...i have the 109 speeds in kilometers and not bothered translating em...
heres the a list:
109 Gustav- 250 kph...(i guess thats about 180 mph)
Spitfire mk9- 160 mph
P-51D- 170 mph
these are all maximum speeds...not recommended :)
-
I think the one thing that makes landing somewhat difficult in AH is bleeding off speed.
I can land an ME-262 as easily as I can land any of the propeller-driven fighters. As far as I can tell there's no difference in landing the jets versus the piston-engine planes. It seems like you cannot use the propeller to create drag and help slow you down.
In real life, we know this wasn't the case--the 262 was known for being tougher to slow down and land than conventional planes because it had no propeller.
J_A_B
-
I do find it more difficult to slow the 262 than other planes in AH. In fact, my only 262 loss has been from a landing prang when I set it down too fast, ran out of runway and ground looped trying to avoid going over the edge of a hill... 200 perkies gone when I should have done a go-around. :(
Landing in AH is difficult at first because each plane has different landing characteristics.
P.S. Westy, to get more drag you should leave RPM as high as possible with engine idling, this gives more drag than a low RPM or stopped prop.
-
3 wheels landing is a must !
It kill me sometime but well ... I don't care :)
-
If I have to land fast with cons around I don't lower the gear at all.
I do a flat approach with the throttle at idle and put the plane into the wind to get the speed under 150mph
(dont know the english expression for full rudder and opposite aileron).
I use full flaps and just before the touch down I stop the engine.
After 3-5 secs of belly skating I have my full stop.
To be honest its the only way I can land a F4U-x :rolleyes:
This is also a good way to ditch between the f*cking trees and sheeps :D
tofri
-
"I don't know if it's through lack of skill....
lol. They're flying (landing) the actual plane and you think somehow you'd be qualified (from experience with pc flight sim/games) to make that comment? Good grief.
Westy
[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
-
FUll flaps, 110 MPH, Fly the length of the runway about 10 feet and then throttle down about 100yards from the re-arm pad. Touch down and roll to a stop.
If that guy can't figure out how to do it (the whiner from the other post) then he should read more about aerodynamics.
-
What I can't understand is what the fuss is either way. You can 3-point, you can land on the mains, it works both ways. You have to understand that in order to bring a plane down in a perfect 3-point and keep it down takes a bit of finesse. You have to balance all the forces involved so you wind up in a stall right at ground level combined with a low sink rate. It is harder to do precisely than a wheel landing which is exactly why most people DO wheel landings.
-
Pulling that stick back into your virtual lap after landing in the Hog will prevent ground looping as well as prop strikes on the deck of CV's.(Make sure you're under stall speed and wheels on the ground)
[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
-
where's the rearm pad? :confused:
-
Ripsnort,
That just doesn't always work in the Hog. I've lost control both during landings and takeoffs, with no warning. It just acts like it has no V-stab or something. Never happens with any other plane.
ra
-
3-point landings are no problem. Upon touching down in a near-stall condition, I apply full aft stick to keep the plane on the ground (same as in real life). For wheel landings, on the rare occasion that I use them in AH, as soon as the mains touch down I apply enough *forward* stick to keep them planted, maintain directional control with the rudder, and allow the tailwheel to make contact with the ground when it's ready.
For landings where I plan to re-arm, I'll 3-point it right on the threshhold, then apply enough throttle to fast taxi tail-up to the arming pad.
-
Originally posted by FlyingDuckSittingSwan:
where's the rearm pad? :confused:
At each end of the runways.... if you go to: http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/maps.html (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/maps.html) and download the field maps, the exact position of the rearm (supply) pads are shown for each size of field. :)
If you are not aware, if you park your plane/vehicle on one of these it will rearm/refuel it to the same loads as when you started - very useful if in a hurry. :D
-
Very well said, Voss, very good.
Almost sounds word for word what my Jeppersen manuals describe it as :) I thought for sure Frenchy, the local CFI, would voice in!
262s are a lot harder to land than the Ar 234....234 has wonderful visibility and you can cheat by getting an outside view by hitting F3. I spent a lot of time doing touch n goes with the 262 and found that riding 180 to the end of the runway then chopping power comlpetely worked best for me.
The nerve bitting thing is doing this at an airfield where no cons can dive in and get ya! It takes quite a while to get these birds under 300mph.
How about carrier landings, guys? I know its a bear with the F4 and its big nose. I try to keep an eye on the con tower antenna, peek over the nose and chop power there. Sometimes it works, sometimes I swim! Any good carrier landing tips for the F4's? Sea Spit is a cinch, as is the TBM.
-
There's another cool technique I learned about in "Stick and Rudder" (good book) that works amazingly well in AH. It doesn't really have a name. On approach, if you need to lose more altitude, and you already have full flaps down, pull back on the stick and start riding the edge of the stall (audible warning) and hold it there. As much as possible, control the tendancy to break to one side or other with rudder. But if you think you're about to enter a full stall, push forward just barely enough to avoid it. In this state, you'll have the plane under control, but you'll be dropping like a proverbial rock (absolute minimum airspeed with maximum rate of descent). Maybe falling like a leaf would be a better way to put it. You won't be able to see the runway, so make sure you're lined up before starting this maneuver (use a point on the horizon as a reference). When you're at a point where you think you should start thinking about landing, push forward to see the runway and gain enough airspeed to make a soft landing. If you do it right, there will really be no flare, per se. You'll already be in the right attitude for a 3-point. Just use throttle to adjust rate of descent so you don't rip the gear off (or worse).
I guess a name for this might be "Stall/mush glidepath control".
Very useful (in addition to side-slips) for planes with no flaps.
-
i do 3 pointers if i can be bothered to take the time to setup properly. Just as often, I get impatient and just try get it down asap. Both work, however a nice 3 pointer is better for braking once down, and making it to the rearm pad.
SKurj
-
Originally posted by Blue Mako:
P.S. Westy, to get more drag you should leave RPM as high as possible with engine idling, this gives more drag than a low RPM or stopped prop.
Actually, that's not quite true. Think of the propellor pitch as angle-of-attack. Higher angles-of-attack present more drag, not less.
-
Then why do they feather props on dead engines?
-
Power off is another situation altogether. In order to achieve the least resistance you feather the prop on a dead or shut down engine.
Come to think of it this is one area I have not investigated within the confines of Aces High. I'm wondering, now, if I can improve on fuel economy...
Has anyone toyed with this?
-
"to get more drag you should leave RPM as high as possible with engine idling, this gives more drag than a low RPM or stopped prop."
Now I'm getting cornfused :)
I figured less prop rpms' meant less air being pulled/pushed past the aircraft by the propellor. And hence low rpm, less air being acted on giving decreased forward movement.
Now prop pitch I could see how that would fit in (unless in AH they're linked to rpm in whihc case I'm all discombobulated) in that higher AOA's (going from edge on to the air until it was flat against the flow) would offer more forward resistance under a low rpm setting.
I wish AH guncam films would allow the player to hop into the aircraft "live" at any point and take the controls. Sure would make testing these thoughts out more easily.
westy
-
Originally posted by Voss:
Power off is another situation altogether. In order to achieve the least resistance you feather the prop on a dead or shut down engine.
Come to think of it this is one area I have not investigated within the confines of Aces High. I'm wondering, now, if I can improve on fuel economy...
Has anyone toyed with this?
See in my multi-engine training, I was told right out that an engine out produces a huge amount of drag and to visualize it like a large disc or round sheild out there in the airstream....very draggy. Feather the props and its all better.
I've played with it some, in Aces, I'm assuming the engines are automatically feathered when dead. Oddly, though, the jets, despite being very close to centrline versus the buffs, yaw tremedously. Go grab a 262, shut down an engine, and try to taxi...you yaw steeply in the direction of the off engine. Strange...I wouldn't expect it to be so drastic.
-
Dead engines aren't auto featherd.
Go up in the ride of your choice, set speed to any value, kill the engine,wiat for it to stabilize in the glide and note the ROC.
Now reduce RPM to minimum, and see what happens to the ROC.
-
In a 262? Not surprised at all. Those pylons are located halfway down the wing. In an F-14 or F-18 you would probably notice it only barely.
-
If there is a way to independantly vary the prop rpm on seperate engines, please let me know, as I haven't discovered it. AH does not appear to be programmed to that extent. Further, I don't see an economic benefit of tuning RPM for cruise. It looks like prop rpm's are limited in their effect.