Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dago on September 16, 2000, 04:39:00 PM
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I dont know why, but there seems to be a very big increase lately in the use of foul language in the game.
I almost always squelch Ch1 now, but I am seeing vulgar talk on the country channel much more than normal. In the last 24 hrs, I bet I have seen "fxxx" at least 5 - 10 times on country channel.
Now, I am not a prude by any means. I swear in real life plenty, but like most I know there is a time and place for it, and I always have to consider the audience that might hear what I say. I do not believe the buffer in Aces High is any place for it.
Frequently, when I play my youngest son pulls up a chair and watches, and more often lately I let him fly a few flights. Another guy complained about the language because his granddaughter was watching him play. Those of us with kids watching dont want our kids to get the idea this is acceptable.
Cuss all you want, yell and scream, but please do it in your house to yourself, please dont type it for the rest of us to endure. It only reflects poorly on the person doing it.
Thanks
Dago
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Not everyone can speak english.
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I agree 100%. At any given time there is likely to be at least one child online or watching. I do all my swearing outloud or on the squad channel.
eskimo
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I agree dago. My 6 yo boy loves to fly my "Airplanes" and likes to put on the headphones and listen while watching me play.
He's getting where he can read pretty good so all the curse words thrown up make me wince. Some words I don't care about but mainly S**t and F*** are uncalled for imo. If it was a verbal channel and the outburst was made I'd have a different outtake and ppl make outburst all the time. But you have to type these words so you know well what your saying.
Most ppl I've seen will kindly apologize once said, but theres just a much that FU just cause u asked them to watch their lang.
Wingnut
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My son and daughter often watch me fly, both are beginning to read. My daughter is old enough to read 4 letter words, and more.
I always have and always will find it offensive when others lack the consideration that children might be watching or flying. Unfortunately much of the time when I point it out to the "offenders" I get a screen full of more and I have to squelch them out, but not before I take a pic and send it to HTC's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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CM, CO, daddog
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
Snapshots (http://events.hitechcreations.com/)
Check 6! (http://http://events.hitechcreations.com/)
CM Schedule (http://www.ropescourse.org/cmtimes.htm)
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cdaddog.jpg)
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy.
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My question is WTH are you doing exposing yout child to this envoirment, if you are so concerned about profanity.
I know that seems a little harsh on my part. I am not advocating profanity, but people wise up.
Fact: Players are NOT going to stop using profanity.
It is not going to stop, don't even pretend that it will. This is not Sesame Street High, this is Aces High. It is a big persons game. Big people rightly or not, will use profaninty in varying degress of repetition.
IMHO the child cares only very slightly about such and such cuss word if at all. It is the parents reaction that highlights and provides this negative reinforcement to the child not vice versa.
If the parent reacts then the child will learn this reaction and it will actually give the word meaning. Whereas it has no meaning, other than that someone got mad. How the parent acts so shall the child.
Don't react negativly and the child most likely could care less, they just want to play. Just like anyone else. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
For the rest of your points, I agree. The use of profanity is really not necessary in the slightess, but it will occur. Do not kid yourself.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Who's next?"
Naso
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My question is WTH are you doing exposing yout child to this envoirment, if you are so concerned about profanity.
This isnt the playboy website, its a game. I shouldnt have to tell them "dont come in here, I am playing a game with a bunch of low class jerks".
It is not going to stop, don't even pretend that it will. This is not Sesame Street High, this is Aces High. It is a big persons game.
This is a big persons game? I guess I missed that on the HTC webpage. There are plenty of guys who play this game, with their own accounts who are still minors. You better tell HT to cancel their accounts.
It is the parents reaction that highlights and provides this negative reinforcement to the child not vice versa.
I dont agree with you at all on this. To not provide a negative reaction to the vulgar langauge is to reinforce that this kind of talk is just fine. Imagine a young child saying "Hey Grandma, I dropped my fxxxing fork?". When questioned she says "oh, my Dad thinks its okay to talk like that, his friends on the computer do it all the time and he thinks its okay".
The use of profanity is really not necessary in the slightess, but it will occur. Do not kid yourself.
Behavior only exists in our society, including the online society, if it is tolerated. AH is a private game, operated on a privately owned server, and I feel it is well within the rights of HTC to establish and enforce a standard that they feel is appropriate and acceptable to their customer base.
Refraining from typing a few of the most objectionable words is not a huge burden to bear for anyone. It is not a slip of the tongue, it is a delibrate act to enter language into the game and expose all those playing to that language. I dont think it is necessary and noone has the right to substantially detract from the game the enjoyment that others might have by their crude, tasteless and low class behavior.
Dago
[This message has been edited by Dago (edited 09-16-2000).]
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How about a squelch list that persists from sim session to sim session? That way you don't need to keep re-squelching people that have proven themselves offensive.
Another alternative is the Carlin Filter. And let people whine about it all they want.
[This message has been edited by Renfield (edited 09-16-2000).]
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That would work with me ok Renfield but I'm with Dago 100% on this. I couldn't expand on anything he wrote but I just want to add my voice to the support on this issue. We do not need nor have to have any morality police here. I do think the community needs to draw a line and then stick to it. Back each other up without causing a ruckus online. AH doesn't need to dragged down to the lowest common denominator.
It takes less key strokes to ALT F4 and go take a breather than it does to type in any swear or stream of spew. And everyone is all the better for not having to endure this unfortunately increasingly common crap.
And it folks squelched the annoying terds then they would not get the attention they want and either shape up or they'll find someplace else to haunt. They do want attention otherwise why on earth would they go through all that effort to "verbalize' it via the keyboard if not for the sake of everyone seeing thier displeasure on some trivial bellybutton moment they just had?
-Westy
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Well said Dago.
People will swear everywhere. But that doesn't mean that we have to put up with it, or that we shouldn't do what is needed to prevent it.
eskimo
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We gotta protect the children!!! Who knows were the parents are... its up to us to protect other peoples children from the way people talk outside of Springfield. We gotta tell the Gov of Texas to stop using vulgar language in front of the lil' childrens!!
yeah thats it... Ban the Sopranos!
10Bears--
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My God people !
This is a adult game !!
Swearing is nothing...any loser does it.
I have heard people call other people ^%$@#@# and I think that's OK. Some people even shoot other people, thats what those adults do. There is no point in berating them for it.
Just leave them be. It's NORMAL behavior.
***END FAKE POST HERE***
REAL THOUGHTS:
Any behavior that is tolerated, slowly becomes less offensive.
If 60 years ago you learned about a drive-by shooting or some other crap,it would have been a worldwide news event.
Unfortunately the lowest common denominator seems to rule now.(The Jerry Springer Show almost made "heros" of total idiots)
On the other hand
If you squelch or "call" these people, the crap will stop because they will not like being the "odd man out".
I used to work in a very,very high stress environment with a lot of HUGE egos, but even there, professionalism is expected or your reputation and career quickly die. I laugh when people say that AH combat is stressful and that excuses rudeness. (stressful..give me a break..)
Regards,
Snoopi
As they say...
"Better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you are an idiot, than open your mouth and confirm it."
[This message has been edited by Snoopi (edited 09-17-2000).]
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Anyone who goes through the trouble of typing out several curse words into the keyboard on their 'puter needs professional help. As if that gives any relief.
The only good way to cuss is to yell them out loudly and smartly, (gotta check six for kids of course) you know, emphasizing the F in f***, etc. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
People who *type* curse words to their *virtual* opponents are light weights in real life. Real 'puter nerds.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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let me get this strait . in a game where the adverage player is 30 is male we cant cuss cause yall might have you kidds on you knee. cause cussin is gonna cause um psycological damage or offend YOUR sense or morality. while 80% of these little girls will be molested by daddy or a uncle or close family freind .
you got more to worry about in my oppinion than grown men playin a war game cussin, you wont agree i know . but really you just want to control the atmosphere of the game and use you bleedin children as a undefetable argument to do so( also my oppinion ) if that is the case the feelings i have for you would be best expressd in thos same objectionable terms that your children will know by heart in preschool.there are no bad words just silly people
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crap ,shit , squeak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) on the radio , even the FCC rules it ok.
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We need:
1. Permanent squelch command.
2. HTC to enforce terms of service.
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Originally posted by -towd_:
let me get this strait . in a game where the adverage player is 30 is male we cant cuss cause yall might have you kidds on you knee.
Even though I'm behind a computer screen, if I'm in the arena, I act like it's a public place. Now I curse a lot when I'm around my friends, but I don't in public and don't in front on my child or anyone elses. Do you sit down at ur local Italian place and start, "I can't believe this F)@(% pasta...".
There's really no need for it and it just shows the mentality of some. I do things that I'm sure ppl would disagree with but if I know it might offend or might not be called for I'll pass. I still think the same way I'm just more considerate of others.
It's not about controlling.it's about consideration.
Wingnut
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We are all adults here (mainly), so from time to time you see profanity in the buffer. People aren't going to stop using it, and honestly it would be a bad idea to implement total filters on language throughout the game.
Here's my idea, if it's possible for HTC to do:
Perhaps HTC could make it possible that the game engine searches for certain text strings and replaces them with *s. These words you wish to filter would be placed in a simple text file in your Aces High Directory. (It would also be nice to have a squelch text file too.) This would allow each individual user to selectively censor any word or person of their liking. (Files would be kind of like the .forward and .plan files used in Unix systems in setup.) I really have no idea how hard it would be for HT to write this, but I know I wrote something similar for a C programming assignment in a couple hours. (Nothing like shooting yourself in the foot if HT ends up saying it would be too big of a performance hit or something. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
How does that sound?
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I like the Carlin Filter idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I came to WB's to late to get to play with the one they had in there in the early daze.... I heard it was a blast. The buffer just full of the alternative words just so everyone could have a good laugh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)You Farging Icehole!!!!!!!1
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by llbm_MOL (edited 09-17-2000).]
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LOL you should hear our squad channel!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) it's Cit fault too!!
One thing tho "DAGO" how is that pronounced??
Your handle sounds awefully close to a racial slang term referring to Italians?
I always wonder about that everytime I see your handle.
The drag is ppl who constantly yell foul lingo, BUT when I hear a pilot that I respect friend or foe and see him swear and rant it's kewl because the SIM brings out such emotion in all of us!!!
*<cough> ziggy*
THX HTC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Towd-
Never brought my kids into it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I find the behavior offensive to me. And as has been alluded to by many others, to stand by and be silent is tacit approval. We then all become insensitive, spurring us on to greater efforts to shock those around us.
I have the right to walk down the street in any town and not have you hurl profanities at me. If you harrass me enough, you can be arrested. I can sue you, and you will lose. All this in the country where people (including yourself) cry aloud about "censorship" and "free speech". The fact is, your freedoms end where my backyard begins. If your exercise of free speech interferes with my rights as a citizen I have the right to ask you to stop.
And for all the chest beating about the words employed- well, I don't really think that is what this is all about to me. The words used are only the manifestation of the utter contempt some of us hold for everyone else. When I see someone using abusive language, I watch how it is being used. If it is someone just blowing up at himself, as in "Shi*, I can't believe I did that!" I have no problem at all. OTOH, if a person says "You are a cheater, and you eat shi*!" then I see an attempt to denegrate another player. This is what I find to be particularly offensive.
I do find it tasteless to use many of the stronger curse words in a public forum, but I find it far more offensive to attack people verbally, with or without the curse words.
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Originally posted by Wingnut_0:
It's not about controlling.it's about consideration.
Wingnut
My old Ops Officer used to say "Profanity is the first refuge of the truly unimaginative."
He often proved it by chewing you to bits without ever raising his voice or using even one slightly off-color word. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I agree with Wingnut.
This is simply about the respect and consideration you show your fellow players and the game.
If you choose to not to show it...that's your choice, of course.
I would appreciate some permanent "squelch" capabilities and "delete word" file.
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"FOWL LANQUAGE": quack,quack, quackcaa-quack.
Can't see paying 30 bucks a month to get cussed at. Just too many 'quake heads' out there and the responsible folks like many that posted here dont get listened too. H2H has degenerated into a first person shooter. Its simple. The people that cuss or purposely screw up a game should get kicked. You dont have to be a Buddist monk to figure that courtesy and good language are important-for adults as well as children.
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I am pleased many of you have expressed in many threads your concern for bad behavior in Aces High.
In fact ever since I left WarBirds and joined AH, 3 months ago, this excessive behavior from many is the one thing I have found most difficult to accept (it seems to me it was never that bad in WB, but I can't affirm it, since because of the higher price tag I never flew as much as I'm flying in AH). To the point that I am constantly questioning the wisdom of paying US$30 a month only to get yelled at by immature and irrespectuous individuals.
I play to relax and have fun, not to be bullied around by frustrated people.
I was even accused of having a "pole out of my ass" because I was strongly and publicly advocating on channel 1 the squelching of individuals who are only capable of showing contempt for their fellow players.
Now I just shut up and squelch those individuals, or just plain squelch 1.
Seeing this growing "revolt of the meek" and the response from HT and Pyro gives me renewed hope in this community.
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DrSoya
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
Part of the Northolt Wing (http://www.raf303.org/northolt) (First Polish Fighter Wing)
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Carlin Filter eh
hmmm.. put it on the client end instead of the server, and let the user create a custom list of unacceptable words. These words are then replaced with **** in the buffer, all work done on the client side (server has enough to keep up with =)
This whole thing can turn into a 1st Ammendment fight. I've seen it happen before. The problem is that what some find offensive others find perfectly acceptable. And you can forget about any words that the FCC will let on the radio etc. They're not "patently offensive", cause if they were the FCC wouldna let'em be used.
And I gotta agree with Towd about the kids. I'm a parent myself, as everyone knows. I would be kidding myself if I thought my kids wouldna be exposed to foul language.
Who has kids and HBO? When you get rid of your HBO (and any other premium move channels) then come talk to me about kids and foul language in AH. A couple I know complain about the launguage thier kids see on the net, then turn right around and let the kids watch skinemax (cinemax). It's sad really, double standard kind of thing. Guess cause they're saying the words on the TV/movie screen they aren't real enough, but since it's a "real person" saying it in AH it is real enough.
Since I know my kids will be exposed to it I'm going to teach them how to swear. I'll teach them there's a time and a place for it, and sometimes you just dinnae do it. Mino made a good point about the rents' reactions to things. Kids are drawn to things to that pull a strong negative reaction from the parents. I know I was, cause I'd get some more of mom's attention, and the forbidden things just seemed like more fun. Educate your kids, dinnae use them as excuses. And if you're the offended, you're free to use the squelch command and ask HT to add the Carlin Filter (I think an iteration like above would be best, but that's me).
I'll not tell ye how to live your life, so please dinnae tell me how to live mine. And if that attitude is rude, so be it.
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What cavemanj said.
Except.
Skinematics should be called ViolentOMatix. Far too much violence, far too little skin.
What's with you Americans and violence/nudity? Why is the former ok on tv, but not the latter?
Oh, I forgot, violence don't kill people, nudity does.
Be Another Incredible Thread.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Hmm Foul Languages.
I've been away from AH more than a half year, (well, since beta days,)
And before AH, I've flown in WB(handle was, -lyun-), Last month I've
registered AH and one thing I've feeling particular on radio is...
yes. I was thinking about posting the same Title ; Foul Languages.
It is far worse than anytime before.
it maybe just my feeling, but it seems that others also felt like this, too.
Maybe I'm so young and weak :) to tolerate those bad words, but even as a
foreign language, bad words are so bad for me. I really don't feel good, and
don't know how to react. yes, I just squelch them and ignore, but always have
a feeling. why? why more 'suckers' are around, what have been changed?
Are there any reasons, or environments, or phenomenons that can explain why
these days 'radio enviroments' are so harsh?
When I'm trying to help someone, and only his reaction is 'foul language' is... eh,
you know how it feels. ... Eventually this gonna discourage communities
attitude about each other...
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what can be done?, if we try? sever side 'catch' of foul language
won't help, IMO. I've seen some other Online-system, they started using
a way around, (e.g. e, instead u, on 4 words, etc etc) ..
Enforcing Policy of HTC will surely help, but it won't affect
2-week free-testing newbies.
maybe 2-week unregistered testers use bad words because of their frusturation,
we may be able to make more detailed, 'enforced' manuals or follow up on-line
tutorial to ... eh, forget it, I know this can't be.
Anyway, I can't solve this, ;) just being frustrated on
those 'foul languages'. my follow up posting(this) is just a sign of my
frustration. you know, some of us (like me) so sensitive and can be hurt
so easy :) If you can't shoot down a person like me, just say bad words on
me :) then you will see me logging out, saying 'sigh'.
"TailLights" Tae-Gil,
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Go Dago go! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
First of all, let's get one thing straight: This is a privately held game, and company. HTC determines what is acceptable behavior and language for their game. Don't even think of trying to hide behind the 1st amendment on this one. This is not the public domain, so get over it.
One thing I'd like to know, from those who defend the profanity, is how profanity and rudeness enhance the gaming experience? I'm serious. What am I missing by not swearing and taunting over the open channel?
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 09-18-2000).]
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Having to use foul language online in my opinion says this about someone:
~ They have a lower IQ than the rest of us that can control ourselves in mixed company.
~Someone who cannot control their temper.
I swear, but in the confines of those who know me(if online, it will be private text), and certainly not around kids. If someone swears outside the confines of friends, then it means they are afraid of something...
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-18-2000).]
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All the more reason we need a permanent squelch list. It would not solve the problem, but perhaps could be a good compromise. BTW the fact that whoever is being squelched does NOT recieve a message stating that fact is an improvement over brand Ws ignore command. JMHO
aztec
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heheheh I remember when they put the cuss word filter in WB a few years back. I have a squadie, his handle is Asso. That poor dude got NO six calls after the cussing filter. It always read a##o 6666666666! Poor guy is from Europe and didn't understand. He thought people had stopped talking to him LOL!
If you read this Asso, we miss ya buddy!
Udie
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I very seldom get so frustrated as to use foul language online--mostly, I'll cuss out my PC. Still, unless it is being used for the sole purpose to make people mad, I don't care about it. people get frustrated and, if cussing helps, fine.
However, I think it is wrong to force everyone to "be nice".
Why should an online game be forced down to the standard of what is acceptable for a 6-year-old? Little kids sure as heck don't pay the bills.
Cussing is bad because its pointless and rude. I don't give a <.....> what your little pre-schooler thinks. YOU'RE his parent, not me. I won't change how I act to conform with how a 6-year-old should act.
If you don't want your kids seeing bad language, don't let them play. You know foul language is present in AH--so if you let them play and they see F***, it is YOUR fault, not the game's. It is not our responsability to only say things fit for a child. It is YOUR responsability to keep your child from things he/she shouldn't see.
When I was growing up, not very long ago, the world didn't try to pander to the needs of a little kid. Parents weren't obsessed with trying to change anything not fit for a child. Instead, I simply wasn't allowed near things which weren't fit for a kid. I think that approach worked pretty good.
If your kid wants to fly a plane and you don't want him/her seeing foul language, don't try to force all of us to change. Buy your kid an offline simulator. We aren't your kids' parents--YOU are.
That said, foul language is bad, it is coarse, and it is unnecessary. But I don't think what a kid should see, has any relevance to an online game aimed at people decidedly older than 6.
J_A_B
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The prevalence of foul language in AH is all the more reason we need a permanent squelch list. It won't solve the problem but I can't help but think it would be a step in the right direction...JMHO
aztec
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Dago;
Don't get me wrong, I am with you 100% in theory and in a perfect world it should work.
Sorry, I'm a realist on this issue and it just ain't going to happen. IMO this issue is just a point of discussion. Never the less, I salute your efforts to minimize profanity.
I am a father myself and I never condoned my children swearing, nor did I overly pursue the opposite. If I exposed them to what I considered an un-healthy envoirment, I took them out of that envoirment.
Simply, it was an effective way to change what I could change and not change what I could not change.
If my kids cussed in front of my Mother or anyone else, I told them to "Knock it off!". In any case I never made a "Big Hoopla" out of it. This strategy worked really good as now when my nearly adult children hear me cuss they provide some feedback exactly the same way.
"Hey Dad, Knock it off!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Who's next?"
Naso
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J_A_B said:
However, I think it is wrong to force everyone to "be nice".
It's not about asking people to "be nice". It's about asking people to "be reasonable".
Honestly, J_A_B, I can't tell what side of the fence you're on here. First you say that you don't like Profanity, then you go on to say that it's the parents' fault for allowing their children to see the profanity.
I do monitor what my child sees, thank you very much, and I generally don't let him watch Aces High. But, I gambled the other day and hoped to give him a couple minutes to see what daddy was doing. And it figures, we couldn't have five mintues without the "F" word in the open buffer. He is still too young to know what that word is, but it made me angry to see that kind of crap on the open channel.
I don't see why this game can't be a game for adolescents and adults. As long as everyone follows the same set of guidlines for behavior, it should be fun for the young and old alike.
I still think Dago's orignal post at the top summed it all up very eloquently. Most if not all of us use profanity from time to time, but there should be places where it is not used. The radio buffer in AH is one of them.
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What banana said.
I take my kid to a football game, for entertainment. So the guy next to me is using F words yelling at the QB. Can I do anything about it? Nope.
I let my kid watch AH from time to time, for entertainment. So the idiot in the text box is using the F word, can I do anything about it? Maybe.
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
However, I think it is wrong to force everyone to "be nice".
J_A_B
The child part of this is a minor issue. I use my situation with my child as an example only.
The real issue is consideration of others....and public behavior. Is it forcing someone to be nice? Well i guess it is, but to keep an online community healthy it's up to it's members to set the standards, etc... If it's members don't try to appeal to everyone in cordial manner it will soon lead to more and more. Will it stop it completely? No..but if ya don't try then it will degrade itself to the point where cursing is the least of someone's worry. I've seen it before as I'm sure some here have....
Wingnut
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I am sorry for sounding ambiguous before. I will try to clear up how I feel on this issue.
I personally don't like bad language. However, a certain level of such language is to be expected in a tense environment such as Aces High. I feel it is not fair to the community as a whole to ask them to only use language that is fit for a little kid. If Aces High was a "children's game" then things would be different. But it isn't.
For example, you can take your kid to see an R- or PG13 rated movie. However, you know that certain things in the movie might not be fit for children.
A movie rated G would be another matter. You would be totally shocked to see cussing in a G movie. Are you surprised to see cussing in a PG13 or R movie? I doubt it.
Same thing applies to Aces High. It is not marketed towards children, hence it may not always be suitable for children.
*I* don't like cussing either. I can live with it, though, because I expect it--as I would with a PG13 or R movie.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
However, a certain level of such language is to be expected in a tense environment such as Aces High. I feel it is not fair to the community as a whole to ask them to only use language that is fit for a little kid.
Why?? Seriously, Why should we expect that?
Look, I'm no prude and will use this language, but not in a public forum, or in a restuarant, or in the office.
And why shouldn't we ask some in the community to show restraint and personal self-discipline.
I mean, look at it, its not like its just uttered spontaneously, one actually has to make a deliberate effort to type it out! Hell, curse all you want at home, who cares, but if you think all of us are on the edge of our seats just waiting for those profanities to come dribbling off your keyboard, you're wrong. And how is the equation Profanity=Adult....I think its Profanity=Juvenile, Unimaginitive Thinking.
And this isn't some sort of thought-police type issue. Think whatever you want, just refrain from bunching it out on the keyboard and hitting enter.
Cobra
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One of the funniest things I've seen in AH was some loser cursing everyone and everything on ch. 1. HT was on and politely asked him to stop, only to get the reply "F**K YOU HT!". Channel 1 then filled with "uh-oh's" and the guy came back from being dumped a few minutes later to apoligize. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
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Such language is to be expeted from time to time, because humans have emotions. And, those emotions sometimes get the better of us.
J_A_B
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This is concept that many people have no understanding of.
Originally posted by Cobra:
And why shouldn't we ask some in the community to show restraint and personal self-discipline.
Cobra
[/B]
The thing that always gets me about the internet is that if a person said some of the stuff on channel 1 to a person standing 3 feet in front of them, most of the time it would lead to a fight. 99% of the time they would not say those things to create the situation that leads to getting punched in the mouth.
I get frustrated, we all do. Guess what, its only a Game. The world will not stop rotating on its axis if you log off and go do something else.
If it is more than just a game to you, go get a harder job, or for some of the players here, go do your homework.
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JG 2's current cannon magnet
Milo
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J-A-B has it right. Context is the key here. Holding children up as your "shield" is naiive; this *isn't* a G-rated game (what WARgame is??), and I for one, refuse to edit my language or conduct for a G audience, unless I'm IN a G environment. I'll gladly refrain from cursing if I go near a elementary school, but otherwise, I'm not a "Disney hypocrite" and won't act like one.
Now, I cuss online *occasionally*, and admittedly never really feel good about it (I do it at my monitor all the time, especially after a pilot kill!). I tend to use the "****" tactic mostly. If I ever get totally out of control, I apologize for it.
After all's said (!!) and done, I agree that the Carlin filter would be the best, most elegant solution. The "persistent squelch" is likewise a good idea, especially for those who want a vanilla-tongued AH experience.
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Not sure about all the kids watching stuff, seems odd if you have free time and kids around you'd be playing a computer game but whatever.
I have found something interesting though regarding a buffer filter. Try typing "blow me" and enter. It will lock you off posting for like 15 - 20 seconds, really.
So when I then try to type "...a kiss" later Im locked off the channel 1 buffer and people really get pissed.
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Actually, those who swear while online are being about as realistic as the flight model in the game "Blue Max". You don't swear on military radios...you don't, you don't. It hampers communications, it doesn't pass any information, it wastes times, and it isn't professional. They didn't do it in WWII and they rarely do it now...and those that do certainly hear about it.
Ape
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
Carlin Filter eh
hmmm.. put it on the client end instead of the server, and let the user create a custom list of unacceptable words. These words are then replaced with **** in the buffer, all work done on the client side..
HT, PYRO.........
Is it "do-able"?
I like this solution. It is solely based on my personal standards of behavior and no one else will even know that I have done it.
Seems to fill any need on the "language" question.
...and then if I could have "persistent squelch" that remains until I change it. That way I can just squelch the guys that fill my buffer with "*****************"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously, both of these things would improve the game more for me than even an Bearcat!
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I thinks its so inappropriate that 5 years olds should be exposed to such fowl language while the parents teach them the merits of spraying C47s with 20mm and chute shooting.
p.s. I showed my 6 year old nephew the Ostwind guns and now he wants a 37mm for his birthday, anyone know where I can pick one up cheap?
<sarcasm mode off>
I hope you guys boycott the gun-shops that don't cater to smaller hands...
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Just dont get mad cuase no one called your six! thats much worse than cussing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!! heheheheheeh u know what I mean.......
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IMO every man (and woman) could do without cursing on common channel. It seems so futile to shout F*ck on ch1... it just lets everyone else know that you are pissed of something.. some people will get offended by the language and there will build another word war.
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IMO every man (and woman) could do without cursing on common channel. It seems so futile to shout F*ck on ch1... it just lets everyone else know that you are pissed of something.. some people will get offended by the language and there will build another word war. As someone said.. its a grown up sim, grown ups can live without swearing.. no matter how pissed they are.
Dusk
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Apeman:
I have a .wav file of the engagement between American F-14's and Libyan MiG's.
Check it out. After a while, the intensity of the combat is so thick ya can chew on it. You can hear one RIO screaming "SHOOT HIM FOX 2!" and the pilot returns "I DON'T HAVE A diddlyING TONE!". Think you can hear the dreaded f word three times.
Maybe he should have cranked up the volume on that Sidewinder tone thingy.
You can find the wav file here, it's a big file, 7 megs or so, 6.09 time total. Interesting listening: http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/F14COMBT.WAV (http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/F14COMBT.WAV)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Did they squelch him ?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 09-19-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Apeman:
I have a .wav file of the engagement between American F-14's and Libyan MiG's.
Check it out. After a while, the intensity of the combat is so thick ya can chew on it. You can hear one RIO screaming "SHOOT HIM FOX 2!" and the pilot returns "I DON'T HAVE A diddlyING TONE!". Think you can hear the dreaded f word three times.
Maybe he should have cranked up the volume on that Sidewinder tone thingy.
You can find the wav file here, it's a big file, 7 megs or so, 6.09 time total. Interesting listening: http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/F14COMBT.WAV (http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/F14COMBT.WAV)
StSanta, at the time he uttered that he was intercom and not broadcasting to the whole world, only to his pilot. Big Difference.
Cobra
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Cobra, I was responding to:
you don't swear on military radios...you don't
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again"
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StSanta,
I know. And he did not say it over an open frequency, only on his internal intercom. Again, thats a big difference. So I don't believe he said those words on a military open frequency. Splitting hairs here, I know, but don't hold that up to refudiate Ape's original statement.
The FAA also frowns upon vulgar language. If you ever swear over an open ATC or Tower Frequency, don't ever give your N number!
And lets face it, the issue here is vulgarity and showing respect and restraint. Its not about freedom of this, or kids watching that, or we are adults so that means we have the privelege to act like juveniles, or we are emotional and that gives the excuse or intolerance regarding this. And even though you are setting in the privacy of your home (or office, hehe) you are still interacting in a public setting. To most that may mean something, to others probably doesn't mean anything.
Cobra
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Perfect. There ya go! Use VOX when swearing. Not text.
-Westy
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I can understand someone swearing in frustration or anger (shucks, I do), but it amazes me when they take the time to TYPE it. Seems sorta stoopid. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
popeye
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Originally posted by Apeman:
Actually, those who swear while online are being about as realistic as the flight model in the game "Blue Max". You don't swear on military radios...you don't, you don't. It hampers communications, it doesn't pass any information, it wastes times, and it isn't professional. They didn't do it in WWII and they rarely do it now...and those that do certainly hear about it.
Ape
?????????????????????????
I can't let the last part of this go by: This has to be one of the most absurd statements I've ever read. They didn't do it in WWII??
Apart from *easily* refuting this (eg. Douglas Bader was told off (<--Correction they turned of the broadcast so the WAAF's couldn't hear it - skeet) because the WAAF's plotting intercepts could hear his quote 'ripe' language), are you *seriously* suggesting that *no-one* *ever* got stressed enough to swear on the radio? Not even an eensy weensy bit?
<goes away shaking his head>
Yeah right ...
(Oh, for the terminally unable to understand plain english, the above doesn't defend it).
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skeet - out
Aces High - Fight Stimulator
[This message has been edited by skeet (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Strange.. I've seen more swearing in a thread about/against swearing than I've seen in the arena all month.
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I hear ya cobra (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just kind of telling wha happens in actual combat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Or on JG54 rw channel:
"OOOOAWW <10 seconds of static> OOOOAAAAAAAAAAARG
SCHEISSE!" - Mojack
"AAAAAAAAAAAAFFAAACK!" - Kirin
"This dude is running lo...aaawFACKFACKFACK" - StSanta
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again"
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fek me wrong thread doh....chit....doh....
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Saying something over a squad channel, or a private RW channel is something entirely different from spewing things out over channel 1 or 2.
It is starting to get ridiculous lately.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Hey you diddlyin double moralists, i am free to use any words i want.
Freedom means more than carrying guns and sometimes you have to pay for the freedom.
You are free to ignore or retune this channel anytime if you get "offended"
Even Saddam used childs as shields, lol
Macchi
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Macchi, in the U. S. we have freedom of speech, but that freedom carries responsibilites with it. You cross the line when that freedom comes at the expense of others.
I. E. You can stand on a corner in any city in the U. S. (note: some cities require you get a permit) and preach any gospel you like, but if you start shouting profanity to the masses, you can become subject to fines and/or arrest.
I may be wrong, but I do not know of any city in the world where you could get away with this type of behaviour, without incurring some legal expense (financially or otherwise).
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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I have to admit, the "F" word I can handle, and its easy to explain to any youngster looking over your shoulder that someone that uses it consistently is of lower IQ since they cannot control themselves in a mixed crowd of folks they do not know personally...however, its the racist word (i.e. nigga, etc) that REALLY offend me...saw quite a bit of this on Monday nite.
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Originally posted by Macchi:
Hey you f**kin double moralists, i am free to use any words i want.
Freedom means more than carrying guns and sometimes you have to pay for the freedom.
You are free to ignore or retune this channel anytime if you get "offended"
Even Saddam used childs as shields, lol
Macchi
I have no more idea of the internal politics of your country than you do of mine. For that reason I wouldn't generalize everyone with your address as a nazi- no more than you can reasonably classify me as a double-moralist.
BTW, I find your tone more offensive than the word you used.
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 09-20-2000).]
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Because I know it's coming, let me head off the "I can cuss because it's my 1st Amnd Right!" posse.
"The only speech that is protected is protected speech."
What does that mean? It means that the Courts or Congress can restrict speech if they feel it necessary. It has to pass a balancing test.
From law school Constitutional Law I:
- Does this law necessary?
- Does it serve a compelling state interest?
- Does the law reasonably accomplish the goals?
If those questions can be answered "yes", then you can regulate speech.
Same thing goes for this game. Just like a resturant can refuse service to someone who doesn't have shoes, AH can prohibit or kick you out for using profanity. The reason is they are not discriminating against you. The rule is the same for everyone, regardless of color, nationality, sex, etc.
So don't say you have a 1st Amdn. right to cuss in AH. You don't.
(Side note): It is interesting to watch people preach responsibility in things like lawsuits and such, be the same that refuse to control themselves in something as silly as a game.
And I will say this, watching a 60+ post on whether or not you should be allowed to type profanity on the common channel makes me happy I fly WB. Yeah, we whine and squeak as much as you do, but at least the subjects aren't as ridiculous.
You really have to be kidding me. "I want to cuss and I don't care who I offend. As a matter of fact, it offends me that you are offended by my behavior! I can act any way I like and if it bothers you, #@$% off!"
*Sniff sniff* What's that I smell? Ahhh yes, community.
*giggle*
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
[This message has been edited by Dune (edited 09-20-2000).]
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Originally posted by Dune:
And I will say this, watching a 60+ post on whether or not you should be allowed to type profanity on the common channel makes me happy I fly WB. Yeah, we whine and squeak as much as you do, but at least the subjects aren't as ridiculous.
*Sniff sniff* What's that I smell? Ahhh yes, community.
*giggle*
Well, Dune, some like me are glad you stay in WB's with your arrogance, since you have no idea what went on Monday afternoon, with a 2-week freebie account guy saying F this and Nigga that...so, when 150 people got a text buffer full of that, including watching HT dump the guy from the arena, the post was born.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Well, Dune, some like me are glad you stay in WB's with your arrogance, since you have no idea what went on Monday afternoon, with a 2-week freebie account guy saying F this and Nigga that...so, when 150 people got a text buffer full of that, including watching HT dump the guy from the arena, the post was born.
Really Rip? Hmm...wasn't it Taillights who said,
Hmm Foul Languages.
I've been away from AH more than a half year, (well, since beta days,)
And before AH, I've flown in WB(handle was, -lyun-), Last month I've
registered AH and one thing I've feeling particular on radio is...
yes. I was thinking about posting the same Title ; Foul Languages.
It is far worse than anytime before.
it maybe just my feeling, but it seems that others also felt like this, too.
and Dago who said,
I dont know why, but there seems to be a very big increase lately in the use of foul language in the game.
I almost always squelch Ch1 now, but I am seeing vulgar talk on the country channel much more than normal. In the last 24 hrs, I bet I have seen "fxxx" at least 5 - 10 times on country channel.
Hmm....it seems that other people feel that is more than just an isolated incident. However, either way it does not change my opinion. And this is the same type of thing that would drive me away from WB if it happened there.
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
[This message has been edited by Dune (edited 09-20-2000).]
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Yeah, we whine and squeak as much as you do, but at least the subjects aren't as ridiculous.
Apparently Dune hasn't read the "Please do not put Peril's plan into the MA" thread on AGW yet. Ridiculous? hmph!
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Dune,
I look at this as the community openly debating what sort of standards it would like to adopt. So it is not so much a waste of BBS space as it is a community negotiating and coming to a consensus in an open forum.
It is afterall only a year old (even though the vast majority of the players are not new to online sims, with alot from WB (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ).
Cobra
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Originally posted by Dune:
And I will say this, watching a 60+ post on whether or not you should be allowed to type profanity on the common channel makes me happy I fly WB. Yeah, we whine and squeak as much as you do, but at least the subjects aren't as ridiculous.
*Sniff sniff* What's that I smell? Ahhh yes, community.
*giggle*
Yes, Yes. Thank You Dune for pointing this out to us inferiors. After reading your reply, I thought I'd go over to AGW, and key myself into these cutting edge subjects on the BBS. I scrolled back over the last week to find the most popular subjects.
<drumroll please>
A refreshing positive thread about a new (er old as hell) subject...
#3 "Anti-LW conspiracy ?" (73 replies)
Er, this game?...
#2 "Just tried AH 1.04" (80 replies)
Errr, this game again??...
#1 "AH playability v. WB" (84 replies)
Yes, we could learn a lot from our forefathers at AGW. If we would only listen to their wisdom.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Dune, you must not have played WB that long. We had the same problem there and even implemented a language filter at one time.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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FWIW, USAF squadrons come up with creative ways to deter pilots from swearing on the radio. Once you say sh*t on the radio, you can't take it back, like cussing in front of your mother (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Penalties range from buying any controllers on that freq a case of beer to buying a keg for the squadron, or worse. In 3 years of flying F-15E's, I remember only about 4 times when people cussed on the radio and each time anyone who heard it gave the perpetrator a bunch of good natured hassling.
If I recall correctly, 3 out of the 4 times involved something like:
Lead: Are you ready yet 2?
Wing: I can't get this piece of sh*t to work
Followed shortly by a dozen beeps on the radio as people hit the TONE button on their radios.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Dozen beeps?!? Wow! Thats alot of beer he bought!
<S> Eagler, for serving our country.
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I serve your country too, rip.
You need an enemy, now come get some.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
eagl, did ya hear the wav where F-14's engage Libyan MiG's? Three kegs there, no doubt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Oh, my...what a mess...
wow...
Let's say I really share StSanta's position in this post...
And to start this thread because kids watching AH running...oh well...when you turn the PC off and go to watch TV I'm sure you squelch the bad language there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
hehe...sorry but I can only feel amazed by the lack of coherence in some people's arguments.
Said that, I used to jump on people a lot of time (coward, HO dweeb,etc), but rarely you'll hear (read) me saying bad words. It has happened 2 or 3 times, and one of them was that big error with the "nazi" thing.
Still I find this funny from a point of view and incredible from the other.
I can't see how a F word can hurt a kid too much, still I see clearly how does a violent image on TV, or weapon-liking society, damage Kid's morale from very young ages.
But of course this is a simple opinion from a 22 year old ignoratn (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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There has to be somekind of cultural wall between Europeans and Americans ?
Open TV and you'll see/hear about war, murders, blood, violence etc... Same with newspaper and radio.
You know; Real life (tm) really sucks.
There's no such a thing like "Perfect world"; Better be accustomed with that.
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You're right, Staga. There is a wall.
Some of the people here are talking about the words. Others are talking about respect. Whether or not a tirade contains vulgar words is secondary to the ill-intent of the message.
You don't want to be called a nazi (though in my culture that isn't a vulgar word). We (Americans) typically don't want the buffer to be filled with vulgarity. You may not understand it, but it is clearly the desire of most people to not have to see it. In that manner you are disrespecting any individual who states they have a problem with it if you make light of the concern.
See, no kids in the argument! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can't explain the craziness of Americans; still, we are no more crazy than any other nation. Many of us have made you aware of our societal taboo with vulgarity. Whether or not you choose to respect it is up to you, but it is insensitive to say "get used to it".
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Yikes!
FYI, I'm "eagl", not "eagler" or any other "eagle_" ident combo. I've been "eagl" since early WB.
Ok, please continue discussing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Kieren,
You don't want to be called a nazi..
Heh...
I really dont care if somebody wants to call me a Nazi... (which I'm not btw... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
In fact few years ago some of our workers (I'm their overseer) called me like that but like my friend say "You can't please them all".
Too long story (broken bones,almost lost my left eye etc... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) to tell but guess I have enough self esteem to be invulnerable to words (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Staga
(our slang word for (baseball)Bat,Stuff,Stick (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
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Been out of town, interesting how this thread has developed.
For those that defend "their right to swear anytime, anywhere and in front of anyone" they please, I wonder this:
Would you care to post your Mothers/Wifes/Daughters phone number in this thread so everyone would feel free to call them and exercise their same rights?
Swear all you want, I dont care, heck, stand in your home and scream out all the swear words you want. All I ask is this, is it really necessary to type it into the buffer in AH? What you do by that act is force that language into our view, into our game, and into our homes. Where do your rights end and ours begin?
Oh, to those that might argue "everyone uses the phone but AH is for adults, not kids", I suspect if you did some research, you would find telephones were originally considered to be communications tools for adults, not play things for kids.
I personally dont care if you type shxt, damx, and such things to much. Its really words with a stronger connotation like fxxx that I think the game could do without.
Dago
As defined in the dictionary- (dago - a person of Spanish, Portugese or Italian descent)
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Fellow squadies singing disco music on the JG2 RW freq is fowl language...of sorts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously, I don't give a damn any of you guys swear. If you Eurotypes don't like it, don't read it and don't respond to it.
On a side note I've never heard anyone swear up there where the air is rare. The little transmit button is just funny that way, it makes you think twice.
I hate to say it, but if you want to cut down on swearing you need to make everyone buy a boxed version of Aces High, in the box you can put an electronic breathalyzer that'll plug into everyone’s serial port. If your BAC goes above .04% (7.0% for Germans and Russians), no Main Arena for you!
Boy am I going to get flamed for suggesting that...
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Thanks alot amazinhunks
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Look like some folks got thier nuts cut off. If swearing helps you feel like a man then do it for real. Go to your local pub/lounge/dance hall, walk around spouting your words of 'manhood' and stand by as all the single women looking for 'real' men gravitate toward you.
-Westy
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Originally posted by eagl:
Yikes!
FYI, I'm "eagl", not "eagler" or any other "eagle_" ident combo. I've been "eagl" since early WB.
Ok, please continue discussing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pffft! Yeah right! I'm SOOO sure! The next thing you'll be telling us is that you got the name "eagl" because you used to fly f15's. Yeah that's the ticket!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie
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If your BAC goes above .04% (7.0% for Germans and Russians), no Main Arena for you!
Boy am I going to get flamed for suggesting that...
OH...MY...GOD.
Major Tom... please don't start a anti-alcohol witchhunt.
Next thing you know, professional BBS "ANALisers" will be plowing through thier thesaurus's making wildly long community enhansing suggestions on how I should live, and how booze is awful and makes yo swear.
Then there will be a set of cones you have to fly through to get to the main arena, and if you fail the sobriety course, your booted for 10 minutes.
It would cost me $30/month for HTH.
[This message has been edited by Creamo (edited 09-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by JoeMud:
Thanks alot amazinhunks
Por nada, mi Amigo! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by skeet:
?????????????????????????
I can't let the last part of this go by: This has to be one of the most absurd statements I've ever read. They didn't do it in WWII??
Apart from *easily* refuting this (eg. Douglas Bader was told off (<--Correction they turned of the broadcast so the WAAF's couldn't hear it - skeet) because the WAAF's plotting intercepts could hear his quote 'ripe' language), are you *seriously* suggesting that *no-one* *ever* got stressed enough to swear on the radio? Not even an eensy weensy bit?
<goes away shaking his head>
Yeah right ...
(Oh, for the terminally unable to understand plain english, the above doesn't defend it).
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Originally posted by Westy:
Look like some folks got thier nuts cut off. If swearing helps you feel like a man then do it for real. Go to your local pub/lounge/dance hall, walk around spouting your words of 'manhood' and stand by as all the single women looking for 'real' men gravitate toward you.
-Westy
Yeah, what he said. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
Luftjägerkorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Por nada, mi Amigo! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hehe kieren, it is:
De nada , Amigo mio (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(hehe love to seem a smart a## (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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If we made people fly through an obstacle course we wouldn't have any newbies to dust and the JG2 would be reduced to a 1:10 kill ratio on a whole.
One has to view the demon beer like one views the demon handguns. Sure beer causes a lot of violence, but not nearly as much as would be caused if there was no beer. People can't hit as hard or shoot as strait when they are loaded up on 34 gin rickies, minus the ricky. Just as Handguns prevent far more crime than they cause in the US.