Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: OZkansas on May 25, 2003, 10:05:56 AM
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Today I was listening to a discussion regarding healthcare on C-Span. Someone called in and suggested that the Department of Defense budget be used to provide healthcare for everyone. The way he suggested this you could detect in his voice the distain he had for the military. I for one don’t want to send anyone into harms way in anything except the best!
I just don’t understand how it is some of our citizens don’t understand that the strength of our military is the key to the blessings our nation has had.
Healthcare for everyone is a noble idea. But it will never happen. Our government should be doing all it can do to help the private sector solve the healthcare problem. The government shouldn’t be directly involved as it only increases the costs as Medicare has demonstrated. The limitations the government places upon the practitioners of healthcare only decreases the quality of healthcare.
It isn’t the responsibility of the government that every citizen is covered by a healthcare program, it is the responsibility of each and every citizen! Everyone has to plan for how they will provide healthcare if they become unemployed. That is the first thing I did when I became unemployed. As a matter of fact I had prepared long before I quit one job. I just don’t understand how some think it is their right that the government provide for their healthcare needs!
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Hehe, agreed OZ :)
As one who works in the Healthcare field, I think there is a role for the government, or some umbrella organization, in the area of controlling the rollout and usage of new technologies and standards of care. The new high-tech stuff keeps rolling off the shelves, all the users of healthcare want it, and all the payors won't pay for it. We need a way to curb utilization of healthcare and the practical applications of new widgets, or our costs will continue to spiral out of control and the government will HAVE to take over ;).
Cya Up!
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Originally posted by OZkansas
I just don’t understand how it is some of our citizens don’t understand that the strength of our military is the key to the blessings our nation has had.
Public education = captive audience for an un-opposed leftie indoctrination. Leftie government controlled schools yield leftie government friendly alumni. Unless the parents watch of course.
Healthcare for everyone is a noble idea. But it will never happen. Our government should be doing all it can do to help the private sector solve the healthcare problem. The government shouldn’t be directly involved as it only increases the costs as Medicare has demonstrated. The limitations the government places upon the practitioners of healthcare only decreases the quality of healthcare.
of course! and ... exp(i*t) = cos(t) + i*sin(t)
Unfortunately our public school educated public knows neither. They are lucky if they can read and write.
[/b]
It isn’t the responsibility of the government that every citizen is covered by a healthcare program, it is the responsibility of each and every citizen! Everyone has to plan for how they will provide healthcare if they become unemployed. That is the first thing I did when I became unemployed. As a matter of fact I had prepared long before I quit one job. I just don’t understand how some think it is their right that the government provide for their healthcare needs! [/B]
Again. Of course. It's common sense and a bit of thinking, but then again. My fellow citizens owe me...
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Originally posted by Dawggus
Hehe, agreed OZ :)
As one who works in the Healthcare field, I think there is a role for the government, or some umbrella organization, in the area of controlling the rollout and usage of new technologies and standards of care. The new high-tech stuff keeps rolling off the shelves, all the users of healthcare want it, and all the payors won't pay for it. We need a way to curb utilization of healthcare and the practical applications of new widgets, or our costs will continue to spiral out of control and the government will HAVE to take over ;).
Cya Up!
When I was younger, under 10 years, now 55, there wasn't any government or insurance involved in healthcare. You could afford to go to the doctor as the market place set the price. As a matter of fact the doctors even made house calls. I remember the doc comming to my room as I was sick with the flu or something that made it hard to go to his office which was in his house.
The government being involved in any way other then encouraging the private sector to solve the healthcare question will only jack the prices higher. The market place will tell which of the new hightech healthcare machines or procedures is worthwhile. I believe that their costs will come down as the market place will set the prices not the insurance companies or government. With that 3rd party, insurance or government, being involved makes it hard for the person using healthcare to understand the real costs as the users only are billed the difference. This allows the users not to care and maybe even abuse the healthcare system.
I think that if we the people don't pay attention regarding healthcare we are going to have a systems that is expensive and produces poor quality healthcare. If the Dems get their way and the government is the sole provider then be ready for the worst healthcare system the world has ever seen!
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I agree that the government should stay out of health care except for a minimal safety-net involvement.
I'm not so sure about insurance though. Insurance in the private sector should prosper or wither according to the free market. They have a right to be in business.
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Originally posted by OZkansas
I think that if we the people don't pay attention regarding healthcare we are going to have a systems that is expensive and produces poor quality healthcare. If the Dems get their way and the government is the sole provider then be ready for the worst healthcare system the world has ever seen!
Well said Oz. I agree that further government involvement into our healthcare system, other than standards and enforcement, will only hinder and thereby worsen an already ailing system.
I, through my employer have an insurance policy, but when I worked for myself, I had just catastrophic (everything covered over 5K) and payed everything out of pocket. Sometimes even taking a year too pay off one incident, but, I was happy in knowing that I was covered should any major illness or injury occur. If more people realised that they can provide healthcare for themselves reasonably priced, then less will fall on the government to subsidise. Thus lowering the costs for everyone involved.
Anyways, it is such a pleasure to have a decent topic on this board as opposed to all the bashing and nonsense that has been going on as of late.
Kudos to you. ;)
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no one has dissagreed
when somone does then you will bash them.
p.s. i dissagreed but you wont listen no matter what i say. so no point getting bashed.
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I think health care is one area that the government SHOULD be in. Nothing wrong with a nation providing for the health of its citizens. Hell, take my SS payments and apply them toward health care...I'll worry about my own retirement.
SOB
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my god we agree. now im really scared.
jesus keep the working man working.
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Must...... bash......... SOB...... orders........ from .......LDV.........
Must...... bash......... SOB...... orders........ from .......LDV.........
Must...... bash......... SOB...... orders........ from .......LDV.........
Must...... bash......... SOB...... orders........ from .......LDV.........
Must...... bash......... SOB...... orders........ from .......LDV.........
Must...... bash......... SOB...... orders........ from .......LDV.........
Must...... bash......... SOB...... orders........ from .......LDV.........
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Originally posted by SOB
Nothing wrong with a nation providing for the health of its citizens.
well, how is healthcare different from
* food
* roof over your head
* phone service
* transportation
* a bottle of booze when you need it
* an income (note I did not say a job)
* success in life
* cable TV
* success with women
where do you think the ratchet would stop?
If we can have "free" healthcare why can't we have "free" everything?
I want all of it, I want "free" everything, I just don't feel like working. I tried that and must tell you, work sucks big time.
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Oh, and one more thing
I do not want to get cancer, so why don't we get congress working on that ASAP.
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Mietla, you are an idiot.
SOB
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lord dolf vader,
Seriously, lay down your arguments so exchange is possible. I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your message and your view-point.
Please do reciprocate.
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Originally posted by SOB
Mietla, you are an idiot.
SOB
SOB said so, I afraid I am.
On a serious side, do you think that it is possible to provide an "everybody is eligible", sustainable and high quality healhcare in the USA?
Explain how?
How much do you think it would cost (percentage of the GNP)?
Who would pay for it (because it is obviously not free)?
How (and if) would you stop the rest of the world coming here to get it?
It's not that I do not want "free" healhcare. I would love it, but whatever you say it is not free. All you can do is to shift the burden from the user of the service to "the other guy" (who is probably filthy rich so who cares).
If you are talking about pooling the resources and averaging the risks, it is called insurance.
If you are talking about everybody gets a treatment he wishes to get, I'm out, you are dreaming.
Right now we have a minimum for everybody, and a premium care for those who can afford it. No one, I mean NO ONE (legal or illegal) is denied medical care. But, if you want a tummy tuck, you pay for it.
You'd rather have a system where everybody is eligible for everything, but no one gets anything because of collapsing system? I do not.
Been there, tried that. Fails every time.
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Your actions speak much louder than my words. No need to listen to me.
SOB
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Actions?
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The act of posting like a retard. I know it well, and we can spot our own!
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I thought the dept. of defense IS healthcare .
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LOL...kinda :D
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Care to respond in substance?
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Perhaps if you had started out like you wanted an honest discussion. But, as it is, you're just being retarded. Besides, I doubt I could begin to answer some of the questions that would face someone designing a system for nationalized health care.
SOB
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The problem with Healthcare is the economic model in which we operate. How many other industries separate the consumer (patients) from the buyer (employers/government). The consumer has little incentive to control their utilization, unless they have a catastrophic policy like someone mentioned earlier.
We want providers, Hospitals in particular, to operate in a free market mode, but saddle them with the above anomoly, plus the requirement to treat all emergent cases regardless of payment source. We are happy to do this, but the economics just don't add up.
My Hospital is celebrating it's 75th Anniversary in May next year. If you do the math, you will see that the Hospital opened 5 months before the Stock Market crash and great depression. We survived on the barter system, receiving produce and labor in exchange for services. We'd pay our employees what we could and issue IOUs for the balance ... that would surely fly today???
The fact is, our economic model is more like that of a utility than normal, for-profit business. Don't get me wrong, I want as little government involvement as possible too, and I surely don't have the answer to the dilema (if I did, I'd be rich ;)). In any event, some good discussion!
Cya Up!
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thanks for the reasoned responce sorry if i was flippant before but my lack of grammar and spelling combine to make me back out of some arguments i feel strongly about. much as a stutterer would avoid arguments in a unfreindly situation. that said.
i honestly believe some sort of guarrenteed health care is absolutly a nessesity for our country and really any other who wants to opperate a industrial economy. you want people to show up for work regularly as in 50 of the 52 weeks a year and work overtime? well what do you do when they get the flu or toothach and have to get well the old fasion way, i.e.two or three weeks on your back. fired is what they get or dead. the low paying jobs are a nighmare of absenteeism many times for just this reason.
the fact is medical anything is to expensive for the lowest tier joe to afford. but when he cant take the pain any more and goes to the emergency room he gets treated to the tune of millions on occasion. often for the lack of 200 bucks in preventative care ,alot of these helth crisis could be avoided with centralized preventitive health care its not even really debatable. its fact
or if you cant concieve of the goverment opperating a service for the common man ( it being here just to fight wars and all ) mayby recognize it has gotten bad enought to let poor folks go to the vetranaian for help. ever goten antibiotics from a vet ? alot of poor folks i know have so common its a nod nod wink wink affair here. ever gotten pain pills from a drug dealer for a toothach just so you could work cause you couldent afford a dentist or getting fired? once again i have. there is a whole network of illeagle support for people left out of the system right here in 21 century america. its shamefull but nessasary the way things are.
what can you say? some of you seem to like it that way, i dont.
heres to republicans hopein they poor people are to sick to vote :( ( but not to sick to work apperently)
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Seems to me that everyone in usa has health care to one degree or another. Care provider choice is absent for those who are very poor but they have access, especially to emergent care. Guvmint also provides minimum care for the eldery, at least what I have seen, its usually the state guvmint but the feds kick in some cash for those who are self ignorant (uneducated by choice), poor, drug abusers and such (just your usual democratic supporting trash).
The big gripe here is with the communists socialists like squeak hilliary that want to create systems that are abhorrently inefficient and force the majority of americans out of healthcare choice.
Screw em, I say. Just make sure everyone has basic care.
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Don't be tempted to go for "socialised" medicine. Maybe the US system is not perfect, but things could be worse (http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16788).
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Originally posted by beet1e
Don't be tempted to go for "socialised" medicine. Maybe the US system is not perfect, but things could be worse (http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16788).
but it work here (even if it cost a lot)
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is there an industrialized country without nationalized health?
other than the usa?
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The mere fact that Beetle is against it makes me even more sure that it's a great idea! :p
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
The mere fact that Beetle is against it makes me even more sure that it's a great idea! :p
SOB
LOL
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There's a guy in that thread claiming £300 a month National Insurance deductions is 'average'. Oh my. That would make the average Briton a £75,000 per year earner. Hardly a worthy example of couter-argument to the NHS. As usual, Nashwan provides a voice of reason in that thread and bats any of the usual nonsence for six.
The NHS has its problems. But while the conservatives would rather cut funding and hope they went away, Labour has made committments and is trying to get a handle on the problem. It has its strengths too. I wouldn't trust any profit making organisation with healthcare - their record with pensions is excellent however - the French system sounds marginally better though.
Having said that, these days most big companies provide health cover for their employees. I do have BUPA private insurance as part of my job and belong to a contributory health scheme for dental and opticians costs.
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I somehow got lucky and won the "find a part time job" lottery. I managed to get one that pays well, fits with my school schedule, AND gives health benefits to part time employees.
SOB
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a part time job with health care ?
part time doctor ?
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Originally posted by Dowding
The NHS has its problems. But while the conservatives would rather cut funding and hope they went away, Labour has made committments and is trying to get a handle on the problem. It has its strengths too. I wouldn't trust any profit making organisation with healthcare - their record with pensions is excellent however - the French system sounds marginally better though.
how ?
Seriously I've heard horrible stories about british health system stories I've never heard of french system.
Practicaly anyone can have immediat full medical help independantly of the money they have.
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Originally posted by straffo
how ?
Seriously I've heard horrible stories about british health system stories I've never heard of french system.
Practicaly anyone can have immediat full medical help independantly of the money they have.
Straffo, that sounds like the same as in the USA, yet we have no national healthcare .
Even illegal imigrants get free heathcare here.
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So why are they arguing in this thread ?
(I'm to lazy to read the whole thread)
Seriously mixing of healthcare and economic is a no go for me, healthcare cost will allways increase whatever the politic/strategie used ...
In fact a healthcare system as an immediat benefit : the lifes saved each day.
We can't say the same of the army.
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rich folks either dont care or dont see people limpin thru life wishing they could go to the doctor. got me i see people just about every day. work with them. hell was one. the fact is the arguments against nation health are the same as rich biased tax cuts in a recession, just plane stupid.
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Yeah, it IS a mystery.
They cut taxes and people that never pay any taxes still get a little money.
People that pay a little tax get more money back than that.
People that pay the most tax get the most money back.
I'm so confused. How is it that the people that pay the most tax get the most back when they cut the tax rates? Man, what a deep, deep mystery.:confused:
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I truly believe we will see nationalized healthcare within the next 20 years and the population curve will drive it there. The projected budget deficits may hasten the onset. The fact remains, people get sick as they get older. We have swelling ranks of boomers lining up for medicare and there aren't going to be enough folks paying into the system in the near term to cover the cost of their entitlement. The drug benefit is nothing but pandering for the 2004 election to the AARP and we really can't afford it.
How did we get here? The govt, that's how. The original medicare and medicaid plans paid whatever they were billed. This created gross inefficiencies in the sysytem. As the feds woke up and began to see that they were getting taken to the cleaners with rapidly increasing public healthcare funding costs they began to crank down on providers. As the providers saw their tit drying up they cost-shifted their bloated budgets to the private sector payors (insurance co). Shortly thereafter the private sector got wise and began cranking down on all sides of the equation (hospital, MD, you).
It's a zero sum game folks. Couple that we the fact that there is a clear distinction between what is profitable and what is moral and you have an interesting mix. I don't like it but I do think it's coming.:(
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like in every other industrialized county on earth from what i can google.
toad you guy is writing checks on a empty account we are gonna have to borrow the money to pay your "tax refund" and your all for that ?
logic screams balance the buget first then give away the extra right? but there is never any extra with republican presidents. odd that huh?
its just reagans style of spend spend spend on the rich to help the poor suposedly. that you believe that is amazing.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
logic screams balance the buget first then give away the extra right?
That's easy, stop the insane spending.
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In our current state of healthcare, socialized medicine would further tax an already over-burdened healthcare system. How long do you wait to get into your local Emergency Room? How about your private Physician's office? Better yet a specialist? Make it free and watch it get infinitely worse. Imagine not being able to select your doctor or surgeon. Think HMO on a grand scale. Quality care would take a back seat to assembly-line medical care. Doctor's and Nurse's salaries would fall to even lower levels, causing a greater shortage of competent healthcare professionals. I am in no way saying the current system is adequate, however, socialization is NOT the way to proceed.
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Agreed Fuzzy. The only two solutions I see are huge entitlement cuts to medicare and medicaid. Medicare won't be touched as the AARP will eviscerate the pol who sponsors it. Medicaid probably can't do enough given the pandering the admin is doing with the drug benefit. The only other way to sustain the present system is to tax the crud out of everyone else while and squeezing the last nickel from providers.
It won't be pretty either way and the sad damn thing is no one in DC is talking about it.