Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: skernsk on August 03, 2000, 03:20:00 PM
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When a guy shuts of his tracers is it only he who cannot see them or is it also the poor bugger in his gunsights??
I kinda feel that if a guy wants to turn off the tracers to help with HIS aim that's fine, but I don't think HE should have invisible BB's flying past my canopy.
So many people demand reality from this sim, it makes me wonder why we can shut off tracers at all since historically tracers were used to HELP with aim in the first place.
That's my rant for the day....sorry
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Skernsk
Fat Drunk Bastards
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If you turn your tracers off, they are off from everyones pov.
Hats off to those guys that gun accurately without them.
JimBear
=VMF111 DevilDogs=
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Historically I know some of the Aces in the Pacific did not want tracers in their guns. Once they knew how to aim and were comfortable they did not want to give themselves away and had tracers removed.
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daddog
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
Snapshots (http://www.ropescourse.org/snapshot.htm)
CM Schedule (http://www.ropescourse.org/cmtimes.htm)
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cdaddog.jpg)
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy.
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I've found flying the D-30 with tracers off is great fun for stealth approaches in no-icons H2H matches. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's historical, it takes a fair amount of skill.. what's the problem?
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Originally posted by daddog:
Historically I know some of the Aces in the Pacific did not want tracers in their guns. Once they knew how to aim and were comfortable they did not want to give themselves away and had tracers removed.
A non-manuvering Zeke is always the best (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 08-03-2000).]
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I wasn't aware that pilots removed tracer from their guns....
duma
The problem is that I'm one of the few who find this sim REALLY tough and I was shot down last night w/o even seeing the con......he said he came at me from high without tracers on.
Some pilots have no problem with this and honestly it will take alot more than this to make me stop flying AH, I need tracer for aiming and I also rely on them for evasives!!
I wanted to get other thoughts on the topic WITHOUT it becoming a squeak session! So far the reply's are exactly what I was looking for.
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Skernsk it's a very small minority who shut off their tracers in the main arena. To be honest even if he had them on you would have been shot down anyway as you'd never saw him to begin with.
-Westy
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I turned tracers shortly after it was introduced as a feature, and haven't gone back. Not that my gunnery was any good to begin with, but I didn't find it hard to switch at all. Usually at the angles I'm firing at the con's below my nose anyhow so tracers don't do a hell of a lot for me.
SOB
Now quit your whining skernsk, and go kill stuff! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Without Tracers us old farts would be lost, we are big enough cannon fodder now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hey there,
I tried no tracers last night myself. I found it helped as I would make short bursts to confirm range. If no hits, then I was off. If I hit, then I hosed a bit for the kill. I also found it easier to SEE the hit flashes (not that I see very darn many with my lack of skill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) ) and knew I was hitting.
It's real and realistic. No one said the enemy had to give you warning he was shooting your butt. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Leave it as is please.
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/mav13.jpg)
No Mercy Asked, None Given, Just pass the ammo
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Westy
Agreed 100%....I should look around more and watch SOB's bellybutton less.
I have been reluctant to switch off tracers and am deathly afraid to switch off icons..........but that is a totally different topic.
I will try turning off tracers to see both sides of the topic, and next time you see a con flying straght and level and not attempting to evade at all..........drool and say "Hi Skernsk" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The commanding officer ordered our tracer ammo removed.... I'll never forget the spectacular results we got. Our kill rate went up from fifty to 100 percent.
Colonel Charles W. King USAAF 5 Victories; WWII
I'd say there's historical precedent.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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I've been flying w/o tracers lately and I've come to prefer it. It's a big help if my initial burst is off target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
I'd say there's historical precedent.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
Well look at it this way:
P-51 in AH's 6 gun configuration has 1880 rounds. Every 5 are tracers. That quite a bit of ammo wasted on shells that have a a slightly different trajectery (historically anyways)then the rest of the ammo stream.
No wonder they got more kills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"I can think of only one time where tracers actually helped me on a combat mission. At the time I was leading the squadron, normally the CO's job, and here I was a lowely Lt. (Due to slow promotions because I had started out enlisted, that whole evadee thing, I was really an old hand in the Squadron and was considered competent enough to do so). One bastard was flying tail-end charlie for my 4 plane formation when I wagged my wings to draw him in. He just ignored me and refused to close up, and made some snide remark about my rank. I quickly broke off the lead, rolled in behind him and let loose a good burst, with tracers streaking right over his cockpit. Bastard did see that, and I didn't get any problems out of him for the rest of the flight.
Tracers were great for learning how guns fired, but the main bulk of the ammo normally didn't follow the tracer path exactly. When we were practicing gunnery out in the desert in the P-39, we found it was much easier to go without tracers. We'd fire on rocks, guessing where the bullets would hit, and compensate once we actually saw them hit. As Mack would say, 'Hell we have to correct once we fire anyway, tracers just give you less time to target the sum-squeak before he starts jinxin'.
I never really did like them much, it was always kind of a shock when the guns went off and the tracers streaked out, impairing my vision for a second or two till my eyes
adjusted. I used them though, without any problems." -- Chuck Yeager
- Jig
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I've read where some US Navy pilots would only have tracers rounds loaded for the last 50 rounds per gun, so they'd know when they were running low. If you watch US Navy gun camera footage you sometimes see that there are no tracers, just a lot of Zeke parts flying around.
ra
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I turned mine off the night the option came out and I like it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's really not that hard without them. Doesn't take as long as ya think to get used to it either.
Good luck skernsk. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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just got a book about the black sheep squadron ,pappys group . on of the fellows discovered that tracers were actually more effective ( cause of zekes propensity to explode )
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Hangtime and jigster.....thanks for the lesson. I know that its not roadkille if its coming from you.
A new question though......do the tracers in AH fly different from those in real life?
What aboput Towd's comment.......will they help incinerate the con in AH?
And Hangtime .........where do you come up with this stuff?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Good discussion.
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Skernsk
Fat Drunk Bastards
[This message has been edited by skernsk (edited 08-03-2000).]
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Fighter Combat; Tactics and Maneuvering. Robert "Mouse" Shaw. On page 10. The book falls open to that page now.. it's the first chapter.. on fighter weapons, gunsights and gunnery tactics. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you only have one Airplane book in your house... this one should be it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for AH tracer trajectories.. I dunno. I think they are the same as the rest of the gun ammo; but Pyro would have to answer that one.. as well as the one on incendary effect.
On that note.. anybody have any refrences to the use of the fuel tanks as an incendary weapon.. like droppin them on troops or tracks and then comming back and lighting 'em up with tracers??
Just curious.. (and I'd like to see drop tank damage potential increased, btw)
Hang
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Fighter Combat; Tactics and Maneuvering. Robert "Mouse" Shaw. On page 10. The book falls open to that page now.. it's the first chapter.. on fighter weapons, gunsights and gunnery tactics. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you only have one Airplane book in your house... this one should be it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for AH tracer trajectories.. I dunno. I think they are the same as the rest of the gun ammo; but Pyro would have to answer that one.. as well as the one on incendary effect.
On that note.. anybody have any refrences to the use of the fuel tanks as an incendary weapon.. like droppin them on troops or tracks and then comming back and lighting 'em up with tracers??
Just curious.. (and I'd like to see drop tank damage potential increased, btw)
Hang
Generalization, sorry don't have the book here.
Chuck Yeager and Bud Anderson were flying spares on what was the last mission for both of them before going back to the US. After buzzing through Switzerland, visiting where Chuck was asked to help plan a mission to rescue interened allied pilots there, they flew over France, and found the Spot where the Fw had shot down Yeager. They made their way to the Perrines (I think that is to spell it) and found the cabin Yeager and a very sick Liberator gunner were hiding when a German patrol came along and fired at them. About this point He and Andy punched their wing tanks, and for fun strafed them up trying to set them on fire. They used up all their ammo trying but never got them to light up on the ground.
Andy stated that this was due to the tanks having little fuel left in them anyway, and I dunno if they had tracer or AP Incd rounds.
Now Andy also said that whenever Yeager or he was flyin as a spare and had no aborts they would drop their full tanks into the channel and they floated well enough that they could zoom in and strafe them in the water and set them afire. (I guess the dropped because landing with two full drop tanks is kinda a fire hazard).
So...probably could be done, but if it ever was in a combat situation I dunno.
- Jig
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I think tracer is actually kind of slang for incendiary ammo. According to US army study guides and field manuals there is no tracer ammo for m16's or any of the other small arms, there is however incendiary ammo .
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Yep, I turned tracers off as soon as that was possible. My hit% dropped from 8% to 5%. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) But now, after 8 sorties in tour 7 it is at 20%. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Lets see how long I can keep that up!
But to be honest, I did a LOT of JaBo and strafing in the last tour. That might be one possibility that my hit% dropped so much.
Switching tracers off has helped me in getting closer to the prey before killing. Three reasons:
-I get to sneak closer in a surprise attack
-In a fight, he evades less if he thinks I'm not shooting
-I can't hit a damn thing from afar so I have to get close. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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I have flown without tracers since the ability to turn them off was created. My gunnery is by no means perfect but I don't really feel at any loss in gunnery than when I had tracers.
One thing I do miss is being able to spook a con on a friendlies 6 by giving him a short burst of fire when just out of range to try and make him turn and break his pursuit, that is one disadvantage of having no tracers, of course the advantage is the possibility of sneaking up on a con and opening fire without the tell tale "look at me i'm on your six shooting at you" tracer warning (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) although if the con is a good pilot then his SA is good enough for him to have seen me coming anyway.
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Suave1. The m60 MG tracer ammo had a copper tail. As the copper burned it left a bright red trail. You couldnt use to many though. it fouled the barral
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One question, how do you turn Icons off? It would be a nice feature to turn it off as I get ready to shoot.
As for tracers on? I can't hit nothing anyways LOL but when I get 1.04 with drones I will dissappear until my gunnery is decent. then in all probablity I will turn off tracers.
I Vietnam,if I was assigned the Pig, I would often take the tracer rounds out of my M60's ammo. At night the freakin things helped the enemy locate your gun postition better than it helped you hit any targets. It was a bit of a pain, but gettin hit is an even bigger pain LOL.
I think that the advantage of adjusting fire will be more than offset by the advance warning it will give a bogey. But I am only specualting for now. I will have an opion as soon as I get drones. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I believe that the three most important things in gunnery are:
A get close.
B get too close, and when you are too close,
C get even closer still, and then fire.
Bubbi Hartman said he never fired until he had a windscreen full of the bogey. He had 360 some kills. Musta known what he wuz talkin about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now if I could only practice what I preach LOL.
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-04-2000).]
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For what its worth I turned off tracers last night.
I liked the tracers being off in the buff, but I couldn't hit toejame without tracer in a fighter unless I was right behind the enemy.
One thing I liked about tracers from a defensive point of view is waiting till the guy opens up before manouvering and bleeding off airspeed!
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Easymo are you sure ? The entire jacket of ball ammo is copper. Matter of fact unless you are using lead slugs, all rifle ammo uses copper jackets . It's the burning magnesium that will deteriorate the barrel in time . Beside, copper burns green .
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Hangtime On the drop tank issue
Jim McCubbin a P51 pilot of the 364th fighter group Eighth air force.
"Because all our missions were long range." remembers McCubbin, "our planes carried two drop tanks of 110 gallons each. We often lamented the waste in dropping those tanks indiscriminately-that is wouldnt it be great if we could drop them on some kruats head?-better defined as a target. A crude plan evolved where if the lead plane would jettison his tankson a target, the following plane would ignite the fuel by firing his armor piercing incendiary ammunition. This bit of phosphorus was so effective that it would flash whatever it struck. Then the second plane would add his tanks as he overflew the same target. The whole idea was rather juvenile since the tanks would not fly like bombs and were difficult to place.
Also it was hard to concentrate on firing ones guns while trying to determine when to let go of his tanks."
Taken from the fantastic book THE MIGHTY EIGHTH
Gerald Astor
Copyright 1997
Currently published by Dell books
I highly recomend this book for the first hand stories in this book.
[This message has been edited by Baddawg (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Flew without tracers last night. I loved it!
It doesnt give the target any warning that it is being fired upon if you miss the initial burst (due to trimming or stick spike or something). Snneeeaky! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The only reason I would get tracers back is that they are usefull to make a running target turn to evade and thus bleed speed, allowing me to catch up.
And its cool to press trigger and watch the pings pop up like magic..weee.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yup - a lot of fresh death is being served... cold. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I turned mine off a while back. Especially effective when you come up under the nose of a guy in autoclimb. They see nothing until the boom (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I turn mine on to sight the guns and get a good default head position then it is back off now for combat.
Hmmm, maybe this will fool people into thinking they are getting a clean 1st pass... until, once again, the boom. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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some airplanes lend themselves to using the tracers off option but I find that most cons see me before I fire due to Icons and my extreme angle inverted or what have you firing solutions find their mark easier w tracers.
its a trade off between surprise and ability to aquire a firing solution in extreme deflection circumstances and long ranges.
however if icons are turned off I will be the first to load my a/c w no tracers since the advantage and surprise it gives is much more significant.
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yup Tracers off is the only way to go for me .. i fly withhout them since the option was introduced .. it clears up the view a LOT and is also better for framerate
And it looks realy cool if you're firing from above on a very low con to walk the little impacts on the ground into the enemy a/c (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)