Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Drunky on May 25, 2003, 09:46:57 PM
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How many would argue that the Ki-61 is an energy fighter?
How many would argue that it is a turn-fighter?
How many don't care? :D
If you think the Ki-61 is an energy fighter then can you contrast it versus a boom and zoomer?
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All of them are energy fighters, even the A6M. Some just do other things better than others
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Hi Drunky,
>How many would argue that the Ki-61 is an energy fighter?
It's a common mistake to class fighters as either "BnZ" or "TnB".
The truth is: Tactics don't depend on your fighter alone, but on how your fighter compares to the enemy's. The smart way to fight might be "BnZ" in one moment and "TnB" in the next.
Nevertheless, it's always a good idea to strive for an energy advantage. Have you ever tried "BnB"? :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hold on....I knew this.........
.....maybe not, what did boom & zoom mean?
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IMO, its poor substained climb rate makes it a limited E fighter.
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I think the ki61 is more of a turn&boom fighter. Turn until theres no other option but to dive away, and its a pretty good diver too.
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Have you ever tried "BnB"? :-)
ROFL
Sailor
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There generally isn’t much discussion about the Ki-61, as it isn’t flown very much in the MA. Nonetheless, it is a decent fighter and is under-rated and underestimated by the vast majority of players.
While anything but fast, it offers excellent energy retention, first-rate diving ability (with very good control) and is a terrific gun platform (very stable) with an extremely powerful gun package.
High-speed maneuverability and control are outstanding. Low-speed maneuverability is close to that of the Spitfire Mk.IX and N1K2. Some may argue it is superior to the N1K2. In my opinion, it is at least its equal.
Ammunition load-out is similar to the Spit IX (240 cannon rounds, 500 12.7mm MG). However, with both cannon packed tightly in the nose above the engine, concentration does not depend upon convergence. While the Hispanos of the Spitfire have better ballistics, the Japanese copied MG151 is superior to the cannons carried by the N1K2. Visibility is good, one of the best not fitted with a bubble canopy.
As Mandoble points out, sustained climb is on par with the F4U-1 and P-47D-11, therefore not very good. So, it takes a while to get it high enough to take advantage of its high-speed dive characteristics and handling. But, I find the time is well spent simply because once you have some E to work with, the Ki-61 can humble anything it might encounter in a downhill fight. Just remember that both the F4U-1 and D-11 Jug are outstanding E fighters. So is the Ki-61, with the added advantage of being vastly superior to both at low-speed dogfighting.
I fly the Ki-61 a little bit each tour. But, I fly a great many different aircraft during any tour. Just yesterday I killed two La-7s, two P-51Ds, a Typhoon and a P-47D-30 with the “Tony”. In each case, I had to dump E to avoid overshooting the enemy fighters. Again, E retention during maneuvering is amazing for such a low-powered fighter. Unlike the P-40E (similar level speed and high-speed handling), the Ki-61 does not bleed E like a pig. This means that the pilot must be E conscious to include managing excess E carried into a turn fight (not unlike the Spitfires). Indeed, should you lose your engine (for any number of reasons), no other fighter that I’m aware of has a better glide ratio. About a year ago during a brawl at 12k on the Baltic map, I ended up with a fuel leak and rapidly ran out of gas. I was over A43 when the engine quit, I was able to glide to A42, and still had to dump several thousand feet of altitude when I arrived. Credit this, I guess, to the high aspect ratio wing and HTC’s modeling of it.
Another factor is the Tony’s excellent range. Typically, its endurance is about 50-75% greater than a Bf 109G-2 when both take off with 100% internal fuel.
Due to gentle stall characteristics and relatively low stall speed, the Ki-61 is easy to operate from a carrier, allowing for great flexibility when fuel and/or ammo run low.
Weaknesses, there are several.
In terms of level speed, the Ki-61 isn’t very fast, at least 60 mph slower than the Fw 190D-9. Running into a Co-alt Dora usually means he has an energy advantage. If the Dora driver is smart, he can use that speed differential to make slashing attacks, or simply avoid you altogether. Even though the Dora and Tony are similarly armed, the guns are somewhat more effective for the Ki-61, so the Dora pilot will want to avoid any HO set up.
Climb, as previously mentioned, is poor. This means that many aircraft are able to fight more effectively “up hill”.
Rate of fire is very high for the Tony’s cannons. Consequently, those 240 rounds disappear rapidly. Conserve your ammo like you would with a 109 or Yak.
Acceleration is only average at best, meaning that most late-war fighters can quickly open a gap if E states are similar.
What to avoid: Stay away from low-speed turn fights with Wildcats, Zeros, Hurricanes and early mark Spitfires. Likewise be careful with SBDs and D3A dive-bombers. Both can easily out-turn the Ki-61. Be careful with fighters above you, don’t get “roped” by trying to follow them in a climb when they have greater E than you do.
On a whole, the Ki-61 is a good airplane, limited only by low power. Nonetheless, it can be used with great effectiveness as an “E fighter” if you take the time to get it high enough to exploit its strengths.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thank you Widewing. That was an excellent performance review.
I also will admit that I was not completely honest when I ask my original questions about the Ki-61. My apologies.
I started flying the Ki-61 during the last CT tour (last week that is) and found it to fit my flying style rather well and wanted other people to start to think about it, hence the questions.
I found that I was able to substain myself during a fight with much more ease than a lot of other planes that I have flown with much better results. Perhaps this is a change in perspective in me or perhaps I have had my perspective changed by this plane :)
Either way I hope that people will take a second glance at this plane because it really does offer a large number of benefits that perhaps more popular planes do not.
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I'm glad Widewing gave that review, because I was about to write it off as a waste of aluminum. I've never had good luck in it in either the CT nor the MA. N1K2s, FM2s, and Spitfires will own it in a turnfight, and LA-7s, P-51s, P-38s, F6Fs, F4Us, and 109s will own it in an energy fight. And it also has the red tail and clown paintjob that makes it easy to spot from d5.0 to d-infinity. :mad:
The only thing I've killed in it (flying in the MA) is a couple of gun emplacements at a vehicle base. :(
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Widewing,
The Ho-5 is not a MG151/20 copy. It is an upscaled, lightened, Browning .50 cal copy.
The Ki-61-I-Otsu did carry MG151/20s, but those were German built and delivered by a submarine freighter.
The thing that I can't stand about it is the complete lack of rear visibility. In the CT setup a few weeks ago that included it I was 4 and 0, but I should have been killed. An American fighter hit me from behind and below and the first I knew of it, despite all my previous rubbernecking, was the tracers flying around me and into me. I went into the fastest evasive I could and managed to get out with only a damaged flap. The only reason I didn't go down was due to the American pilot's inadequacy.
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Originally posted by gofaster
I'm glad Widewing gave that review, because I was about to write it off as a waste of aluminum. I've never had good luck in it in either the CT nor the MA. N1K2s, FM2s, and Spitfires will own it in a turnfight
Ive out turned spits, FM2, but never Niki's in the Ki61..I think its an awesome plane, could use more ammo though..
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it feels like a E fighter but according to netaces charts the c205 outperforms it in climbing and speed...without wep (c205) with wep on 61...
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I bagged 3 kills in 1 flight last night by simply being higher than my targets and catching them when they were low and slow and heavy. 3 Corsairs were making bombing attacks on my land base from a carrier and I caught them at a strong disadvantage. The trick is to fly it like a glider - don't turn too much and don't try to climb too much. Keep the nose level or pointed down and don't fire until you're inside d300. Corsairs will disintegrate wingtip to wingtip that way.
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High-speed maneuverability and control are outstanding. Low-speed maneuverability is close to that of the Spitfire Mk.IX and N1K2. Some may argue it is superior to the N1K2. In my opinion, it is at least its equal.
I disagree with every one of these statements. The Ki-61 is a better BnZ fighter than the A6M, other than that it is mediocre all around.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
The Ki-61 is a better BnZ fighter than the A6M, other than that it is mediocre all around.
The Tony takes some getting used to. Probably the most important thing is to recognize that, like most Axis planes, you shouldn't shoot unless you're under 250 yards, and really not unless your a lot closer than that. The Tony has a fairly narrow maneuvering speed range, generally anywhere in the 200s. Faster, and you start to compress; slower, and it doesn't turn well.
Once you learn fire discipline and how to keep it in the speed range, though, this plane is a killer. Zeke, Hellcat and FM2 can probably turn just a bit better, Spitfire as well, but otherwise no one is going to out-turn you, and you can go up while those planes are busy turning. It's easy to keep within your speed range with just a little practice, because the plane has very good energy qualities. Unlike other Japanese planes, this one is quick enough that you can generally keep the other guy from getting away (unless he's just a plain old boom-&-zoomer).
We fly the Tony quite a lot in CT. Took me awhile to figure it out, but now it really is my favorite Japanese plane, and it can more than hold its own with any of the Allied planes, other than the Spit and, perhaps, the FM2.
- oldman
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The Ki61 is a deffinate turn fighter until it runs down below the 100MPH range to which it becomes a slow, unmanuverable flying Zippo death trap. It has nice guns and nice turning ability.
Lacks in:
-Altitude abilities
-Slow acceleration to speeds above 250
-Nice Bombload that keeps MAX speed down to 250
-Compresses easily
-relatively high amounts of ammo weigh the nose down
-MAX speed with W.E.P will not pass 310 at any altitude
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Oldman:
The Tony has a fairly narrow maneuvering speed range, generally anywhere in the 200s. Faster, and you start to compress; slower, and it doesn't turn well.
Exactly my experience.
Keep it over 200mph and you are good, nice direct handling, good stability, great roll rate. Under 200mph, well, you feel like you are wallowing a bit and the turn rate is unimpressive.
E-retention seems good, probably better than average, though any lost E is tough to replace as the speed, acceleration and climb are all poor.
Firepower is good, nice placement of guns with decent ammo load (putting the cannons in the cowl is excellent) but the ballistics take a little while to catch on to.
Overall, it makes for a decent package, not outstanding, but probably a little under-rated for how often you see them (rarely).
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
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WW2 era IJA pilots called ki-61 'Tyu-sen'.
'Kei-sen' is 'light ~trun & brun~ fighter'...Type1, Type97,....
'Jyu-sen' is 'Heavy ~Zoom&dive~ fighter'...Type2, Type4, IJN J2M,...
'Tyu-sen' is 'Middle ~both~ fighter' :D