Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: F4UDOA on May 28, 2003, 10:34:30 AM
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Just looking at the TAIC report on the KI-44 and thinking what a shame it is that we haven't had that thing in AH.
It would have allowed a small perk cost for the NIK2 like the C-Hog (they were both built in very similar numbers) say 10 perks and the SHoki would hve been the midwar terror it should have been.
This bird was faster at most alts than the NIK2 and climbed better but had either 2 .50 cals or 2 40mills. Would have been great for ACM. Much like a Hellcat with better climb and less guns.
(http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/files/pictures/aviation/ww2/japan/ki44/ki44-taic-part1.jpg)
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"they were both built in very similar numbers"
There were more than twice as many N1K2J and more than seven times as many if you add the N1K1J.
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I thought the combined run of Shidens was about 1400, while the combined run of Shokis was around 1250?
-Sik
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The number of good Japanese fighters AH doesn't have is alot.
The ones we have are good choices, emphasizing the heavier firepower-versions of the models, but gosh, there are a half dozen more good fighters which would add alot to the CT, scenarios, and in a few cases the MA: Ki.84, J2M3, Ki.43-III, Ki.44, Ki.100, A6M3.
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SHOW ME THE SHOKI PYRO!!! :)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26532&highlight=shoki
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funked mby u have rollrate and turn time?
on charts quoted here is not included, btw copied from my thread on other BB;)
ramzey
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No I don't have that info. Looking at the dimensions of the plane, I'd guess roll rate and turn rate are similar to an early Fw 190. :)
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Originally posted by Sikboy
I thought the combined run of Shidens was about 1400, while the combined run of Shokis was around 1250?
-Sik
Yep thats right.
200 chogs
400+ Shiden-Kais
1000 Shidens
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep thats right.
200 chogs
400+ Shiden-Kais
1000 Shidens
Sorry, I'm retarded. I read it as "Shokis and Shidens were built in similar numbers"
hope I can get my money back from theh hooked on phonics people.
carry on lol.
-Sik
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Grunherz,
In the scale of fighter production the difference between 200 and 400 is not so much. Plus other factors play into that as well.
1. How many of those Shindens actually made it into combat?
2. How many were destroyed on the ground?
3. How many never left Japan for combat at all?
I can certainly account for the 200 F4U-1C's making into the combat area during wartime. Not including the more than 800 F4U-4B's(20mil M3's) that were built during wartime.
But even without that it would have been nice to have the Shoki in AH Classic.
Ramzey,
I frequent those boards as well. There are less people like Grunherz picking your every knit there;)
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The Ki 44 is Not on my wish list at all, and perking the N1K2-J is rediculous by any strech of the imaganation.
Comparing japanese and US production figures is also kinda lame generaly since 1400 for Japan was a lot of planes. From what I have read almost all those Georges produced were sent to comabt unit's and even if they were based in Japan they did see action or most of them did, Georges flew combat sorties from the Main Islands of japan to Okinawa escorting striks down their and flew defensive sorties aganst the Carier strikes aganst the homeland that were conducted toward the end of the war. It could also be said that anyplane caught on the ground and destroyed saw combat.
The reasion the Ki 44 is Not on my wish list is that it simply was not that great a preformer, it climbed well but handeled porely, and had a week gun package, the 40mm being almost useless.
Their are simply better planes that can be modled around the same time frame that would be better rides, the Ki 84 which replaced the Ki 44 for all intensive pourpouses namely and had better guns spead and handeling. Heck the Tony is as fast and some models climb better than the Ki 44. The Tony handels better and hand better gun's. geting another Tony varient would be preferable to the KI 44.
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Quite Shoki-ng!
:D
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Originally posted by funkedup
SHOW ME THE SHOKI PYRO!!! :)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26532&highlight=shoki
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_66_1054039711.jpg)
Killing a mig 3
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The reasion the Ki 44 is Not on my wish list is that it simply was not that great a preformer, it climbed well but handeled porely, and had a week gun package, the 40mm being almost useless.
4x12.7 mm would be OK, the FM2 and P51B do just fine. In what way did it handle poorly? The main thing the Jap planeset needs is a plane that can dive and roll well at high speed.
ra
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I'd like to see a Ki.44-II-Otsu, but the Ki.84-I-Ko is higher on my wish list. Three times as many were built, it entered service at approximately the same time and was a much, much better fighter.
As to perking the N1K2-J. That is a sheerly absurd idea. It is the only Japanese fighter that is competitve in the MA in the hands of a regular player. Unlike the F4U-1C, it would not have an icon hiding it's true nature (aka, a perk plane) and it is not anywhere near fast enough to escape.
The F4U-1C is effectively camoflaged by all the freebie F4U-1s and F4U-1Ds and is faster than the average enemy fighter should they realize that they are fighting a perked F4U-1C and not a freebie F4U of some sort.
Lastly and most telling, the F4U-1C was not perked due to low historical numbers, but rather due to the fact that the sheer numbers of them were harming the game, something the N1K2-J has never managed to pull off.
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Well those 4 12.7mm would be on the later modles not the earler one's,( which had two 7.7 and two 12.7mm) and they are Not 50cal's like on the US planes they have a shorter efective range and reduced hitting power, though they have a higher rof.
All the reports the I have read are that the Japanese pioltes dident like it do to it's porer handeling trates, it was not a turn fighter in other words. " piolets were critical of it's high landing spead and comparative lack of manuaverabality"p.8, a P51 could outmanuaver a Ki-44.
Dyring 1942 just a handfull of trials aircraft saw action, 10 were sent to the CBI.
The Ki-44-II was test flow aganst the Bf 109E-2 a p40E and the Ki 61, while it preformened well aganst the former two the Ki 61:" did better than any of these aircraft".p.9
It was not untill late 42/ early 43 that the Ki 44 was in service in any real number's.
The -IIa had the lighter aramement then it switched to the -IIb: two 40mm and two 12.7 mm guns in Augast 43, then in March 44 the -IIC was made with four 12.7mm.
So in short During 1943:
You have the Tony which was Faster and climbed
Ki 84 Ia 392mph,5K Meaters in 5min 54 sec.
Ki-44-1a 360mph, 5k Meaters in 5min 54 seconds.
Ki-44-IIb 376mph, 5k meaters in 4min 17 sec.
Ki-61-1b 368mph 5k in 5min 31 sec.
ki-61-II KAIa 379mph 5k meaters in 6 min
So during most of 43 the Tony is fatser climbs better and handels much better and has a better gun package.
During 44, the Ki-44 can climb rather nicely but that is it's only advantage, it is still out guned by the Tony which is faster still and still handels better and we have the Ki-84 comming on the scean which is much better all around except for climbing. The one clear advantage the Japanese by far and large possess is their handeling abality and since as we progress into the later war perioud the only real advantage the ki 44 has is the climb which looks good compared to the Japanese machines I have listed above but aganst some allied types it would face off aganst it is not enought to realy make a huge differance. It will still have week guns and not be able to turn it's way out of trouble.
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Ki-44-IIb 376mph, 5k meaters in 4min 17 sec.
I'll take this one. :)
And I don't intend to turn my way out of trouble. The Jap planeset needs a BnZ plane.
ra
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Visual ade comparing the 12.7mm Ho-103 to the US 50 Cal.:
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/43777/0.jpg)
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Brady,
The Tony we have does not climb all that well.
Also were did you get the quote about a P-51 out manuevering a KI-44?
Also do you have the report or the KI-44, BF109E, Ki-61 test?
I have the TAIC book. I need to check the wing loading but I don't think a P-51 should be able to out maneuver it.
Also 4 .50 cal is not that bad in the MA.
That Japanese 12.7mil is huge. That didn't have good hitting power?
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At a glance most of the US fighter's that would be set aganst the Ki-44 are about 30 seconds to 1 min slower to alt (5k Meters) than the Ki 44, howeaver their mostly all faster, have better firepower and handle as well if not better than it does.
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"The Tony we have does not climb all that well."
No it suck's, thats why I was kinda hoping to see a Ki-61-Ib varient, the Tony we have is the worst climber of them all, I did not list it's climb to 5K Meaters in like 7 min, but it is hard to tell what model we actualy have because of the name snafu with it.
"Also were did you get the quote about a P-51 out manuevering a KI-44? "
Sry the above Quotes are from Ki-44 Shoki by Buschell, he states that when the P51B came to China to face off aganst the Ki-44 it could easly turn inside it, and the P51's preformance vs the ki-44 tiped the scales back in favore of the Allies in that theater.
"Also do you have the report or the KI-44, BF109E, Ki-61 test? '
Buschell sights this report and quotes excerpts from it, no hard figurs just the above summery I quoted are given.
"I have the TAIC book. I need to check the wing loading but I don't think a P-51 should be able to out maneuver it. "
Well acording to the anadotail evidance offerd in my books on and covering the Ki-44 handeling was not it's fortie, and as listed above the P51 could take it.
"Also 4 .50 cal is not that bad in the MA. "
Well these are not 50 cal rounds like what your thinking, see above pick.
"That Japanese 12.7mil is huge. That didn't have good hitting power"
Hear Check out this chart on the gun's, it gives a good indacation:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
The Ho-103 is realy an excelent weapon, basicaly they took the 50cal and made it more efficient, it's lighter has a higher rof and the ammo is lighter and the whole system is optimised for effective firing at around 400 yards, but in AH the 50 cal is king, so you cant realy compare the two and come up even. the 50 cal hits harder has alomst twice the effective range and the US planes have a ton of ammo for them, they are also generaly much more reselent to fire than their Japanese counterpart's, even if they were the same gun the Japanese would still be at a disavantage do to their generaly weaker airfrmae's. I gues a good idea of the effectivenness of the Ho-103 can be gleaned from tryig to kill stuff with the the Tony's 12.7mm's alone.
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Brady,
What do you mean "handle badly"? Remember the Japanese Navy did not like the A6M2 in 1940 because it could not out maneuver the KI-27. Saburu Sakai thought the NIK2-J was a pile of junk.
Likes and dislikes are very subjective. Does it not roll well, stall??
The relative wing loading of the NIK2 and Ki-44 are very close.
NIK2-J 253SQ FT 9040LBS
Wing loading= 35.73
Ki-44 169SQ FT 6100LBS
Wing Loading= 36.09
P-51D 233.19SQ ft 10,100LBS
Wing Loading= 43.31
In fact it says in the TAIC that te TOJO 2 has the highest rate of climb and dive of any Japanese single seat fighter of any Japanese A/C tested except the Jack. Also the it will out maneuver most allied fighters.
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In short if I had to pick:
For ealy war 42/43: I would rather see the Early Tony, better over all preformance and 20mm cannon's, MG 151's or Ho-5's.
As apposed to the 12.7mm and 7.7mm .
For Mid war 43/44 the Tony is still better except in climb, everything else, guns, handeling and spead are in the Tony favor.
For 44/45: we have Ki-44 production stoped in January 45 in favore of the Ki-84, and in 44 the Ki 84 is the better plane except in climb, again guns , handeling and spead are in the Ki-84's favor.
While it would be neat to get the Ki-44, the political situation does not bode well for a ton of Japanes toy's in the offing, at best i think we can expect just a few new rides this year for Japan, so in the since of being realistic I would back just the Ki 84 and a Tony Varient over the ki 44.
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Brady,
We keep crossing post.
Thanks for that ballistics chart. I was looking for that for another thread.
I have never read anything from Buschell. I am assuming he is a pilot not a historian. I will look him up. Did he publish any books?
FYI the VMF-123 thought they could outturn the NIK2-J in there F4U-1D's. I have the artical I can send you if your interested.
BTW. Which TAIC book do you have? The page I posted with the climb chart I do not have in my TAIC book. Also I do not have data for the KI-61 II.
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"What do you mean "handle badly"? Remember the Japanese Navy did not like the A6M2 in 1940 because it could not out maneuver the KI-27."
Acording to the anadotial evidance all my books are clear on this that in comparasion to all other Japanes fighter's it did not handel manuaver as well as they did, while it could out manuaver a P38 or P40 it could not do the same with a P51 or so they say. The Book's also say that as the war progreased and the Old hands went on, died, or whatever, that new generation of fighter's piolets asigned to to it who did not know better did not complain as much about the handeling issue's.
"Saburu Sakai thought the NIK2-J was a pile of junk."
Well he was kinda biased in this regard having lost a lot of friends in the George and the George was built by a company not well respected by many in Japan.
"Likes and dislikes are very subjective. Does it not roll well, stall?? "
That is true, what I am going on other than the number's posted by me above is anadotail evidance form about 5 different sources that coaberate the same overall impreshion of the aircraft.
"In fact it says in the TAIC that te TOJO 2 has the highest rate of climb and dive of any Japanese single seat fighter of any Japanese A/C tested except the Jack. Also the it will out maneuver most allied fighters.'
Well it clearly does, if your looking at the lateer model,. If they give us the best climbing model then their's no contest in this dpartment, the early one was no better than the Ki 61 in this regard and clearly inferiour in all other catagories. The Japanese themslefs felt that the Ki44 was obsoleat compared to the Ki 84 and stoped it's production and development in favor of the Ki 84. It's abaility to out manuaver Most Allied fighter's is not in dispute realy, what is more important is the one's it cant outmanuaver namely the P51B, or so the anadotial evidance would sugest. Both the Jack and the Ki-44 lost out to the George and the Ki 84, both were considered inferiour planes compared to the later ones by the Empire.
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this should be placed here too:)
(http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/files/pictures/aviation/ww2/japan/ki44/ki44-taic-part2.jpg)
(http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/files/pictures/aviation/ww2/japan/ki44/ki44-taic-part3.jpg)
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"I have never read anything from Buschell. I am assuming he is a pilot not a historian. I will look him up. Did he publish any books? "
Richard M. Bueschel, he has published several books on Japanese aircraft, Schiffer has his book's in series.
"FYI the VMF-123 thought they could outturn the NIK2-J in there F4U-1D's. I have the artical I can send you if your interested. "
Yes that should be an interesting read:),bradys5@hotmail.com, and ty:)
"BTW. Which TAIC book do you have? The page I posted with the climb chart I do not have in my TAIC book. Also I do not have data for the KI-61 II."
I dont have a TAIC book, I have book's that sight their finding's howeaver.
Ki-61:
ki 61-Ib wingloading 30.2ib/sq.ft 368mph 5k in 5min 31 sec
Ki-61-I KAIc wingloading 35.1 lb/sq ft, climb to 5k Meters 7min 366mph
Ki-61-II KAIa wingloading 38.8lb sq ft. 379mph 5k meaters in 6 min
I am also fairly certain that their are more variables to consider when assesing manuaverabaility than just wingloading, the Flap system on the George for example.
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http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/
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Originally posted by brady
Acording to the anadotial evidance all my books are clear on this that in comparasion to all other Japanes fighter's it did not handel manuaver as well as they did, while it could out manuaver a P38 or P40 it could not do the same with a P51 or so they say.
Interesting. Comparative trials of an Allison Mustang against the P-40 concluded that the two were about equal in tight turning, with a slight edge going to the P-40 in a prolonged fight. (Of course, the P-51B's greater power might help it sustain a turn better, although the early Mustangs were lighter.)
As regards "all other Japanese fighters":
"The P-40N would out turn the Tony, which we began to run into in late '43." (Sammy Pierce, 49th FG)
"We never considered trying to turn with a Zero, but with our newly installed maneuvering flaps, it was a different story against the Tony." (PJ Dahl, 475th FG)
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F4UDOA twice as as much is twice as much and especially so considering the different scales of air power between the USA and Japan the 400 N1K2J not to mention the 1000 similarly performing N1K1J most of which saw combat in WW2, unlike the F4U4B - are far more significant to Japan than a measely limted production run of 200 F4U1C. Sorry man but you dont have much of case equating the George to Chog...
If you want a nice new Japanese plane why not the Ki84, thousands were built and used all over the pacific and asia and was Japans most significant fighter after the Zero. It would provide nice use in the MA and in scenarios.
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Ok Grunherz you win. The George and the C-Hog are different. Lord knows nobody wants to perk the NIK2 in AH (I am not one who does).
In any case I would still rather have the KI-44 in AH as the Japanese midwar fighter 1943. Maybe 1944 can be the Tony II or Jack and the 1945 can be the KI-84.
Point being I would have liked to have gotten it before Q3 2003 in AH II.
Brady,
I didn't realize who Buschell was. I have his book on the Ki-84.
I would like to see the Ki-44 available for senarios against the F4U-1. Right now nobody in the CT will let the F4U-1 fight the A6M2 or 5. I thought you were the guy leading the fight to get the F4U-1 enabled?
What they should do is just turn the WEP off and lower the weight approximately 300lbs. Viola early war F4U-1.
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F4UDOA:
Which book do you have that has the TAIC reports? I've been searching around for TAIC reports. Thanks!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Dtango,
I have a book of nothing but TAIC reports.
It is by Planes of Fame publications and Ed Maloney.
Called Japanese Aircraft Performance. ISBN #0-915-464-03-2
I purchased it online through HistoricAviation.com
You shouldn't have any trouble finding it.
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Great, thanks for the info! Much appreciated!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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"In any case I would still rather have the KI-44 in AH as the Japanese midwar fighter 1943. Maybe 1944 can be the Tony II or Jack and the 1945 can be the KI-84."
Well hear agin most of the Ki 44's from mid war were the Ki 44-I's, and the Earler Ki-61-Ib has cannons and preforms much better overall, in fact it is the best preforming of all the Tony's in terms of climb, so I would rather see it come as aposed the Ki 44 for this perioud. If you get into late war 44/45 you again have better rides available, the Ki 84 or the N1k1, or the N1k2, the Jack imo falls into the same catagory as the Ki 44.
"Point being I would have liked to have gotten it before Q3 2003 in AH II. "
Ya I hear that even if I would rather have somting different.
"I didn't realize who Buschell was. I have his book on the Ki-84."
His Ki 84 book as some error's in it namely the "c" production figures, only 1 or 2 were actualy made.
"I would like to see the Ki-44 available for senarios against the F4U-1. Right now nobody in the CT will let the F4U-1 fight the A6M2 or 5. I thought you were the guy leading the fight to get the F4U-1 enabled?"
As near as I can tell the Ki 44 would not of faught the F4U-1, they were mostly in China and the CBI and protecting the oil fields around Palembang, then later in the war they made it to the philipines and they faught the Russians and the last units wound up on Formosa and definding the home island's, at war's end only 3 units were still equiped with the Ki-44, I know they did fight Royal Navy F4U's when the Brits smaked the Palembang oil refineriers during their raid s aganst them. They never served in the solomons or New Gunnie, sumatra and the Dutch east indies and the the Philipines is as far SE as they got.
My stance on the F4U-1 vs the early war Japanese plane set is that the F4U-1 is to much for them and that they nead to be restricted(limited) or left out of planeset's whear they face anything other than the George.
"What they should do is just turn the WEP off and lower the weight approximately 300lbs. Viola early war F4U-1.'
The big problem is the HUGE spead advantage the F4U-1 has over the early Japanese plane set, it is prety boaring fighting aganst a plane that just zoom's and boom's all day long while you sit and wait for him to make a mistake while ploding along in your A6M2, wityh it's piss pore gun package(see my link bellow on those gun's).
I gues my main concern hear is that since I doubt well get much in the way of new rides for Japan in the short term that what we do get be the best bang for the production buck, a Ki 84 is imo the best option and a varient of the Tony the Ki-61-Ib, these two fighters would go a long way to adreasing set up issues we have for the Japanese, while the Ki 44 would be nice, it is not going to realy help restore balance at least not as much as the former two would.
We also nead a couple strike aircraft for the Empire but that is another story....:)
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Originally posted by brady
"As near as I can tell the Ki 44 would not of faught the F4U-1, they were mostly in China and the CBI and protecting the oil fields around Palembang, then later in the war they made it to the philipines and they faught the Russians and the last units wound up on Formosa and definding the home island's, at war's end only 3 units were still equiped with the Ki-44, I know they did fight Royal Navy F4U's when the Brits smaked the Palembang oil refineriers during their raid s aganst them. They never served in the solomons or New Gunnie, sumatra and the Dutch east indies and the the Philipines is as far SE as they got.
My stance on the F4U-1 vs the early war Japanese plane set is that the F4U-1 is to much for them and that they nead to be restricted(limited) or left out of planeset's whear they face anything other than the George.
"What they should do is just turn the WEP off and lower the weight approximately 300lbs. Viola early war F4U-1.'
The big problem is the HUGE spead advantage the F4U-1 has over the early Japanese plane set, it is prety boaring fighting aganst a plane that just zoom's and boom's all day long while you sit and wait for him to make a mistake while ploding along in your A6M2, wityh it's piss pore gun package(see my link bellow on those gun's).
Ki-44s were deployed to the PI (246th Sentai). They were also based on Iwo Jima (23rd Sentai),and Okinawa (29th Sentai).
The vast majority of units flying the Ki-44 were recalled or assigned to home defense on the various Japanese Islands. Here they encountered P-51s, P-47Ns, F6Fs and some Corsairs operating off of the U.S. fleet carriers. Over Japan their primary adversary were B-29s (and their escorts, swarms of Mustangs and super-long-range P-47Ns).
P-38s encountered the Ki-44 in the PI, as did both Navy and Marine fighters in the area surrounding Iwo Jima. However, the number of Ki-44s were never more than a few dozen.
As for CT set-ups, I understand the desire to "balance" the arena, but hell, it's supposed to be an historical arena inasmuch as is possible.
Simply because the Zero (even A6M5 as it IS a late 1943, early 1944 fighter) is such a dog against the F4U, the Allies pilots don't get to fly the Corsair or have it anywhere near the front as compensation to the whining Axis jocks. Likewise the A6M2 DID face the F4U and F6F. So did the A6M3. So, in the interest of "balance" give them the A6M5! Not that it will make the slightest difference.
Widewing
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F4UDOA,
Where does the idea that the Ki.84 wasa 1945 fighter come from? I see people who mainly fly Allied make this claim frequently.
The Ki.84 was in the hands of service evaluation squadrons in late 1943 and in service by April, 1944. That is before the P-51D, P-38L or F6F-5.
The Ki.84 was NOT a 1945 fighter
I'm tired of seeing that claim.
Widewing,
You mean the Axis pilots who whine the F4U away just like the Allied pilots (with far less reason) whine the N1K2-J away?
Nah, you couldn't mean that.:rolleyes:
Tell me, do you enjoy competing with four other F4Us to kill one A6M2? Do you enjoy endlessly BnZing aircraft that can't do anything about it?
Maybe it would help if you pro-Allied guys would actually push for concurrent Japanese aircraft rather than insisting that it is just fine and dandy for the Japanese side to be fighting with equipment that is two or more years older than what you are using.
How about some of these:
A6M3a
B6N2
F6F-3
Ki.61-I-Otsu
Ki.84-I-Ko
P-38F
Instead of asking for aircraft, like the Ki.44-I-Ko, that would make the balance of power even worse, why not ask for aircraft that would make for challenging opponents?
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"As for CT set-ups, I understand the desire to "balance" the arena, but hell, it's supposed to be an historical arena inasmuch as is possible."
True but not at the expense of playabality. The premis is to be as historicaly accurate as posable but not at the expense of good gameplay, and That means that a Plane with a 70 MPH spead advantage is not someting we want to see a lot of in a set up.
"Simply because the Zero (even A6M5 as it IS a late 1943, early 1944 fighter) is such a dog against the F4U, the Allies pilots don't get to fly the Corsair or have it anywhere near the front as compensation to the whining Axis jocks. Likewise the A6M2 DID face the F4U and F6F. So did the A6M3. So, in the interest of "balance" give them the A6M5! Not that it will make the slightest difference. "
The allied piolets can fly it all day long in the MA, and we have many CT set up's that have the F4U's enabled, I am runing one Tomarow that does for example.Creating lopsided plane match up's is not a good idea,and at present adding the Ki 84 and an Early Ki-61-1 would go a long way to adressing these problems that wind up limiting certain Allied planes in Ct set up's.
The CT views are mine and not nescessarly those of my comrads on the CT staff.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Widewing,
You mean the Axis pilots who whine the F4U away just like the Allied pilots (with far less reason) whine the N1K2-J away?
Nah, you couldn't mean that.:rolleyes:
Tell me, do you enjoy competing with four other F4Us to kill one A6M2? Do you enjoy endlessly BnZing aircraft that can't do anything about it?
Maybe it would help if you pro-Allied guys would actually push for concurrent Japanese aircraft rather than insisting that it is just fine and dandy for the Japanese side to be fighting with equipment that is two or more years older than what you are using.
(Quizical look)
{Sorry to butt in ... excuse me WW}
1: I didn't see one single instance of an Allied player whining about the Nik2J on channel one, on the country buffer or on this board during the late pac slot (or afterwards). I flew this setup quite extensively. I may have missed it. How many actual examples can you cite?
2: Who likes getting bounced by 2 Zekes, 2 Kis and 2 Niks on takeoff (while being shelled and bombed)? Well, obviously I must have or I wouldn't have kept doing it - although the CT staff tried to make sure my choices were pretty much limited to that or logging when the game board was tossed across the room then rearranged when it looked like the Axis side was going to recieve it's fair share of lumps. ;) Do you enjoy capping and vulching a field for hours on end? Do you really think having the staff constantly and consistantly modify the slot setup to trim the tailfeathers of the Allies (or push `em into the corner) in order to "balance the scales" the moment the situation in the arena looks like the Axis side is starting to take a beating is being done to ensure balanced play and fun for all involved?
But none of that makes for a very good argument on what model is best to add to the IJ planeset anyhow. As a matter of fact, in some ways it goes to prove how much an "inferior" model can kick butt if you have a tactical advantage. Which is really what the CT is about more than making sure everyone on both sides have planes with identical strengths and weaknesses. If that's all we wanted then why not just have planesets that offer only one type of plane? The Slot with nothing but the Zeke on both sides. Or the Slot with nothing but the Hog on both sides. We both know the answer to that. It's not the MA or the DA.
The old argument of how "devastating" the F4U would be against the Zero has now become how "boring" it is to fight against planes that have strengths that rely on the ability to strike and extend while flying a plane with strengths that rely on the ability to maneuver and retain energy. No surprise there. Once the setup was finally put back into play it was bound to disprove the former argument. After all, in the hands of an experienced pilot, a Zeke can hold off a BnZer in a one on one situation pretty much indefinately (or until fuel runs low).
What if it's not one on one? Well, to tell the truth, it should hardly ever be that. IRL, both sides knew the importance of flying in force and proper wingman tactics. And some IJ pilots realize that the Zeke can actually climb as well as turn ... and can read darbars on maps.
Non-stop fast and furious close range furballs can be had on most any MA map. If that's the basis the CT staff uses to determine benchmarks, then perhaps the "Combat Theater" needs a more accurate title ... like "Axis vs. Allies furball" (with a subtitle "pro-Axis pac until the IJ planeset meets our expectations").
3: Did I just read you correctly? Did you actually claim that pro-allied guys are not advocating the addition of some more late model Japanese fighters to AH? No .... I must have imagined that. I know you realize how many allied pac (and specifically Hog fans) have added their voices in the request for more IJ aircraft (fighter and bomber). But if I did just read you correctly, shame on you for forgetting that. Holding the f4U-1 as ransom to get more models isn't a very good way to foster such cooperation, either.
4: Do I want a challenge? Hell, I thought I had one. Time and again I've mentioned the skill and tenacity of my IJ foes in everything from an A6M2 to a NiK2J. Why do you think the Allied players are relying so heavily on wingman tactics as well as developing (or reverting to)tactics that focus on the strengths of their machines, which requires alot more patience and discipline than I'm used to. I guarantee you if our positions were reversed (let's say if I was in an FM2 ... down to a third of my clip and you were in .... well, let's just pretend that the Japanese developed a plane with the exact same characteristics of the F4U-1 .... momentum and punch but no real turn capability) ... that I'd find it a challenge and I wouldn't let my ego change that word to boring (nor would I try to get the "Japanese F4U" banned or extremely limited in CT Pac setups until I had my own clone of it to play with). That being said, I'm glad to see some carrier-borne Hogs in the upcoming setup. Let's hope they don't get axed the moment someone lands a kill in one.
Karnak, I respect the hell out of the 13th and it's ability to shine in any mix and match. Don't fall into the Brady/Batz mindset .... please! :D
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Originally posted by brady
The CT views are mine and not nescessarly those of my comrads on the CT staff.
One can hope and if so ... that's a good thing. :D
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Well said Arlo.
It is not up to the CM's to determine what A/C should used. It is not up to the players or even HTC.
It is history and the best we can do is imitate it. If we choose to disable A/C to make the game more playable or interesting we are gaming the game and kidding ourselves.
Also my asking for Ki-44 in know way says that I don't want a Jack, Ki-84, Ki-100 etc. It just means I want the Ki-44.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Widewing,
You mean the Axis pilots who whine the F4U away just like the Allied pilots (with far less reason) whine the N1K2-J away?
Nah, you couldn't mean that.:rolleyes:
Tell me, do you enjoy competing with four other F4Us to kill one A6M2? Do you enjoy endlessly BnZing aircraft that can't do anything about it?
I certainly don't whine about the N1K2, or any other aircraft for that matter. N1K2s are easily neutered. They can only compete with the F4U if the Corsair pilot elects to maneuver with one at speeds below 300 mph. Moreover, there are plenty of guys who will do exactly that, silly as it is.
I don't know about anyone else, but I fly my aircraft to its strengths. If it has a significant speed advantage, then I'll keep it fast. Even so, that does not mean you can't maneuver for a kill. There's more than a few N1K2 drivers in the MA who wondered how I cut the corner on their fighter, despite having a ton of E in my F4U-4. I love nothing more than seeing a "turn fighter" execute a hard break turn or reverse upon seeing me boring in. That is exactly what I WANT them to do. Kill what E they have, so their ability to change aspect is gone. Break down their energy until they are helpless, wallowing target drones.
Simply diving in and extending, repeat ad nauseum isn't much fun, and often not very productive. Using the entire flight envelope to get the kill is fun.
As to CT balancing: Is this the HTC version of NASCAR? No one is allowed an advantage? I guess we will never see a Spring 1945 Japan scenario. What with F4U-4s, P-51Ds and F6Fs, the outcry would wake the dead. I remember the Sino-Russo set-up well. Basically, the Lavochkins and Yaks buzzed around with virtual impunity and the Axis crew howled. I haven't seen that set up since.
As far as adding new Japanese fighters goes, I'd love it. I fly most of the Japanese plane set in the MA, with great success (47/3, flying Ki-61 and N1K2, with all losses to ack, flak or ack induced). The Ki-84 is one of the 5 aircraft I want to see added (others being the Yak-3, P-47M or N, Ki-100 and Mustang Mk.1A).
My regards,
Widewing
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The kuriles set was run several times by me, about 5 times I think and I simply havent had time to rerun it since, I am shure it will see the CT again.
"It is history and the best we can do is imitate it. If we choose to disable A/C to make the game more playable or interesting we are gaming the game and kidding ourselves. "
Yes we are atempting to creat a better and more playable enviourment, were only kidding ourselfs if we think doing otherwise is good for the comunity, grosly unbalanced set up's draw fewer players and creat bad experances for CT players, in the past we have noted this on several ocashions and made adjustments to try and creat beter gaming experances for all, while maintaing historical imershion. We cant imatate History in set up's and expect it to be a good time in all instances for all concerned, nore do we have in many cases the planes nescessary to realise this fully. We get as close as we can and not everyone is always happy with the set up, myslef included.
In any set up that has the US aganst the Japanes the US has the advantage in: Ordance deleavery, firepower, efective gun range, durabality, surviabality, High alt preformance(mostly), Bomber cpaabality, CV strike plane capabality, and often player base, spead advantage, Every Us vs Japanese set up the US planes have a spead advantage, they Typicaly have an exceleration advantage as well, and more often than not a Dive spead advantage.
And this is in a set that has been adjusted for balance, by limiting or removing the Hog's, the only thing we can do is to limit the degree of advantage the US has over the Japanese.
So no were not looking to leval the playing field just make it a better all round set up for all concerned, the Japanese are still at a disatvantage, and will always be at one for the most part.
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Why do you need an early Ki-61 when the current one will suffice? The earlier versions are no faster vs the allied set, and are in many cases are armed with only 4 x 12.7s.
Rabaul Sunset, fall 1943:
Allies:
F4U-1 birdcage (land based only)
F4F-4
SBD
TBM
P-40E RNZAF
A-20A
IJ:
Ki-61 land based
A6M5 (stand in for the A6M3 and it also served there)
A6M2
Kate
Val
Betty (Ju88)
Perfectly good setup. No need for a N1K2, P-38L or F6F-5. An optional setup could include Ki-67s with F6Fs on the allied side, maybe.
For a late 1944 Phillipines setup, you add the above. The real trouble is with the F4U-1D as you need a Ki-84 in there as a counter. So maybe leave it out and add the FM2 instead? one idea.
*Btw the arguement that the Ki-61 cant fight F4U-1s has been disproved in any CT setup where the two fought. Check the stats for the Ki-61 in the last setup.
*My opposition to the N1K2 only goes as far as including it in 1943 Solomons setups when its not needed if the plane set is right.
The Ki-84 will plug the hole in the IJ set hopefully in AH2. In the meantime we work with what we have.
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The earler ki-61-I is a better preformer, which set's better aganst the Earler F4U-1 which is faster than the F4U-1D. It is also a varient and comparatively easy for HTC to add. So if you think we nead the Ki 84 to off set the ID then I gues we better leave the 1A parked till it arives as well.:)
This CHart tool is a good indacatin of what I am refering to, while not 100% acurate it is prety close to how the planes in AH preform:
http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm
ki 61-Ib wingloading 30.2ib/sq.ft 368mph 5k in 5min 31 sec
Ki-61-I KAIc wingloading 35.1 lb/sq ft, climb to 5k Meters 7min 366mph
The earler ones were fitted with 20mm MG 151's very early in the production cycle, in fact the plane had been designed to acomadate these and the guns were added right on the production line.
Hear agin in the set up describe the US has a tremendious advantage unless the F4U's are limited to some extent, the set up would play better with the Hellcat instead of the F4U.
"Btw the arguement that the Ki-61 cant fight F4U-1s has been disproved in any CT setup where the two fought. Check the stats for the Ki-61 in the last setup. "
Kill states for the CT are not exactly true indacators of what is realy going on, all they show is what was killed not the circumstance. For example I had 30 Vulches in an A6M5 in 30 min and died once while doing it on the last slot set up if you were to look at my stats you might think i did prety good when in fact they were all easy kill's, I also killed 34 P38's( and a few TBM's) in one setting in a Ship gun ect..., and as widewing has pointed out a suprising number of Allied players are suprisingly wiliing to try and turn fight down low. Their is nothing to prove hear since the argument is not that the ki 61 cant fight the Hog, but it is the point that the Hog is uber do to it's vastly supiour preformance, and that preformance diferential neads to be taken into acount when the set up is made, That and all the above mention inhearent US advantages, what the designer makes of it varies.
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Bellow are some comments regarding the last Slot set up, a set up that had The P38, P47D-11 and the F4U-1 unlimited, aganst the George, and company:
"I managed to find some good fights by flying a P-47 and turnfighting it, but damned if you are going to find any Allied pilot ready to mix it up with less than 3 to 1 odds and an initial alt advantage. Boring."
"My kingdom for Franks"
"The opposite is true for p38 and jug pilots when they will come in with 5k dive in a completely un agressive fashion miss then extend away a sector or 2 to repeat it. "
"Things seem to be a bit porked (unbalanced) and it's just not fun constantly pushing a boulder up a hill. Especially when you complain that it's uphill both ways and nothing changes. "
"Been flying the poor little A6M2 quite a bit and racked up only 7 kills aginst 11 losses and most of these fights have been long and drawn out,and yes the A6M2 does not match up well at all aginst the P38/47 unless someone is new to the plane(most are not).I think Ill try the Ki61 for the most part to try to learn it some more did ok in it "
"I'll fly IJN this set-up unless for some reason the numbers shift, but with all the uber Allied planes in this set-up I think I'll be offering wasabi enemas to the enemy for the duration."
"For instance, the ever-so-damned N1K2 is almost helpless, when they are solely alone to fight a band of organized 1944~45 USN planes, in PAC setups of the CT. The USN pilots usually fly by "Historical" agenda - come in high, don't lose speed, and run away like a greased pig when things get tough - and since there aren't any La-7s to catch running planes and force them to turn, even the N1K2s are usually in a diabolical situation where it is totally passive against incoming USN onslaught by those awesom F4U-1, F4U-4s and F6F-5s. A slow plane, which is incapable of forcing the fight to its terms - that's what the N1K2 is reduced to, in the CT"
"Let me amend my statement, I've never seen more flat out running with no thoughts of engaging than in this planeset that I've ever seen in the MA. Extending to gain or regain advantage is one thing but running back to the nearest friendly base or hoard while holding their skirts up so they won't trip and < gasp > have to fight makes for a very boring time in the CT.
Looking forward to the next CT set-up, one that will hopefully be a bit more condusive to AtoA combat."
In short if the allied players are dumb and blow their advantage and get killed it doesent mean the plane set is balanced.
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The earlier ones also had 2 7.7s and 2 12.27s, they also had 4 x 12.7s. They also had some with MG151 20mm in the wings. They were no faster, and the late model already out turns the F4U-1 with ease, so thats kind of a mute point.
Im not opposed to adding it, it would be ez to do, but I think its a stretch to think its somehow going to be really much better than a later model, because it has a better climb rate.
The Ki-61 score in the CT goes directly to the heart of the matter, since the CT is what we are talking about. The Ki-61 does fine, the proof is in the #s, and there are any number of CT pilots who think its a fine ride, as do I. It had the best K/D of any fighter in the last setup, allied or axis, thats not an accident, or a fluke.
I also echo the observation of the Kuriles setup where LA-7s and Yak-9Us fought the IJ a/c. Hardly worse than a Ki-61 vs a F4U-1.
Oh ya, and because Ki-61 pilots blow their alt and TB with the nearest group of F6Fs doesnt mean the Ki-61 is a bad fighter.
Because the A6M2 pilots dive into the nearest furball with F4Fs and blow any advantage they might have doesnt mean the A6M2 is a bad fighter either.
Works both ways.
Plane vs Plane, last CT setup:
The Ki-61 has 113 kills and has been killed 79 times against the P-38L.
The Ki-61 has 70 kills and has been killed 48 times against the F6F-5.
The Ki-61 has 91 kills and has been killed 38 times against the P-47D-11.
*The Ki-61 has 102 kills and has been killed 52 times against the F4U-1.*
Where were the posters quoted above when all that was going on? probably in the MA.
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"The earlier ones also had 2 7.7s and 2 12.27s, they also had 4 x 12.7s. They also had some with MG151 20mm in the wings. They were no faster, and the late model already out turns the F4U-1 with ease, so thats kind of a mute point. Im not opposed to adding it, it would be ez to do, but I think its a stretch to think its somehow going to be really much better than a later model, because it has a better climb rate. "
Of all the Ki 61-1's built about half had 20mm Cannon's some 1700 Ki-61-1's were built. They were faster thought not by by much, they climbed faster and by all acounts excelerated faster, and were faster turner's, so they would be better at doing what is their only advantage realy and that is turn fighting. It is almost a minute and a half faster to alt, thats a prety big diferance.
"The Ki-61 score in the CT goes directly to the heart of the matter, since the CT is what we are talking about. The Ki-61 does fine, the proof is in the #s"
, and there are any number of CT pilots who think its a fine ride, as do I. It had the best K/D of any fighter in the last setup, allied or axis, thats not an accident, or a fluke. "
LIke I said above kill stas are realy not a good indacator of what is realy going on, yes it is a nice plane one of my favorates realy right next to the 205, and if an allied player is stupid and playes to your advantage he is easy to kill in it, but it is way out preformed by most all alied planes, ebevn the hellcat can extend at will from it. The kill sts from the last set up indicate to me that the Japanese did a lot of vulching and faught some low skilled allied players, I was doumbfounded by the clueless antics i saw on numiours ocashions in the CT during that last set up.
"I also echo the observation of the Kuriles setup where LA-7s and Yak-9Us fought the IJ a/c. Hardly worse than a Ki-61 vs a F4U-1. "
That set has some different variables and can not be directly compared to this one or other US based set up's namely it was over a year ago that I created it and that I have been throught a learning curve since that time, that set up also had some of lowest atandance of any of my set up's, and runner's were a problem in it.
"Oh ya, and because Ki-61 pilots blow their alt and TB with the nearest group of F6Fs doesnt mean the Ki-61 is a bad fighter. "
The Ki 61 is best when fighting aganst the hellcat in turnfighting, geting them low and slow is what they want to do, their not blowing anyting in doing this. If the hellcat is dumbenought to get sucked into this kinda fight them he is going to get killed, but then again he can easly extend with his spead and exceleration.
"Because the A6M2 pilots dive into the nearest furball with F4Fs and blow any advantage they might have doesnt mean the A6M2 is a bad fighter either."
See above.
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"The Ki 61 is best when fighting aganst the hellcat in turnfighting, geting them low and slow is what they want to do, their not blowing anyting in doing this. If the hellcat is dumbenought to get sucked into this kinda fight them he is going to get killed, but then again he can easly extend with his spead and exceleration."
And thats how they get killed, in this "Snoopy vs the Red Baron" style of combat. The worst thing any IJ fighter can do vs US a/c is get into a "furball". They are not blowing anything by doing this? how about what speed and alt they have? Any IJ pilot that isnt smart about picking his fights isnt going home. Ki-61 needs to bide his time, get in, and get out. To seek out a sea level furball and dive right in, thinking you are going to live because you turn well is nonsense.
A6M2 vs F4F...see above.
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Squire, Brady will never concede that he's wrong about his preconcevied and biased notions. He'll post quotes to shore up his pov and ignore ones that don't. If the numbers don't back up his argument, he'll argue that the numbers are not a true indicator of anything. If the numbers actually did reflect his views then he'd use them as irrefutable proof. And if, by chance, he runs up against an argument he can't refute, then he'll rationalize and excuse away biased actions on his part or that he influenced by claiming how horribly unfair a planeset is based on misconceptions of planeset strengths and weaknesses (IJ and Allied alike).
Even when it's been proven otherwise, he'll whine about how unfair a setup is in response to CT staff meddling and rearranging things to "fix" them and claim that the only reason the IJ side did so well is that the players on that side are all tactical geniuses and ACM cods while the players on the allied side are all just too damned stupid to win in a setup that's so obviously slanted in their favor.
Fact of the matter is ...
Everytime the slot's been run (early or late) the CT staff has made adjustments to make sure the IJ side can't lose. Also ... every "glitch" or "problem" on the slot map (real or imagined) has been "something that gave the Allies an unfair advantage" and the only way to "fix" it has been to disable Allied assets or eliminate Allied options. And if, by chance, a "glitch" is discovered that gives the IJ side an unfair advantage, the "fix" will undoubtedly do so as well.
Now, you're supposed to be too stupid to notice this. This way Brady can continue to claim how unfair and cruel any type of CT pac setup is for the IJ and that no matter what adjustments the CT staff make, the IJ forces are at an extreme disadvantage. The excuses get stupider with time.
And you're supposed to believe that a half dozen quotes from as many or fewer players proves that the CT staff's administration of pacific setups is at an all-time approval rating from the AH community when in fact it's driven away many players who supported the CT and prefered it over any other AH arena.
The most common answer from Brady/Batz? Who needs ya? Go to the MA. We've got things just how we like it.
Now we have another late pac setup and yet another chance to see whether the CT pro-axis bias will surface.
But don't waste your time with Brady. Even if he knows, deep down, that he's fulla chit, he has all the earmarks of someone who isn't honest enough with himself to admit it.
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Squire: we have differnt stiles of fighting I think, and I think that if your hanging to spead and alt then your still thinkintg as an allied piolet who neads these to stay alive, as may Axis players mentioned most get their kills doing this and a lot of them can maitain a positive K/D advantage but most will not get home since they will get picked off by a Zoom and booming Allied plane that enter's the fray while their slow, Since the Japanese planes are slower and generaly have worse climb rates they cant compeat in the Spead area, shure they can be used this way, but thats not what their best at.
Kill stats, I can go back a few tours and to a few set up's and look at kill stats and find any kinda rato that will soot my point of view, I used to sight them all the time to make points untill I realised how weak a leg this is to stand on.
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What is TAIC?
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Brady,
The Tony we have does not climb all that well.
Also were did you get the quote about a P-51 out manuevering a KI-44?
Also do you have the report or the KI-44, BF109E, Ki-61 test?
I have the TAIC book. I need to check the wing loading but I don't think a P-51 should be able to out maneuver it.
Also 4 .50 cal is not that bad in the MA.
That Japanese 12.7mil is huge. That didn't have good hitting power?
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Arlo,
I didn't see any complaining about the N1K2 is the last setup.
I was refering to the old scenarios where the N1K2 was whined away despite have far, far, far, far less effect than the F4U-1 did against A6M2s.
Reading dar bars and knowing to fight in strength is moot when the enemy has five times as many players, unless you are advocating milk running. Personally I find milk running boring.
I didn't see any Japanese fighters vulching in the short time I was on and I certainly didn't vulch.
The only three Japanese aircraft I can recall pro-Allied aircraft fliers asking for off hand are the Ki.43, the G4M2 "Betty" and, now, the Ki.44.
Widewing,
I was not pointing at you. You pointed at "Axis fliers" in general, so I merely pointed out that "Allied fliers" have been known for the same crap.
Personally I will show up on squad night even if the scenario was A6M2s against F4U-4s (FWIW, that scenario is functionally no different than A6M2s against F4U-1s). I won't show up at other times, but that is noting irregular for me. This last Pac setup I only flew on squad nights and only had three total sorties, two in the Ki.61 on Tuesday and a really long flight in the N1K2-J on Thursday for a combined total K/D of 8 and 0.
Bring on your F4Us, but don't expect very many fights or very many opponents.
(BTW, there is plenty of examples of Allied whining going on about the current setup due to the fact that the F4U-1C and P-51B & D are not included. Whining that goes all the way to the hyperbole that the setup is not balanced and is heavily biased because of the lack of those aircraft. Apparently the F4U-1, F4U-1D, FM-2, F6F-5, P-38L and P-47D-30 are not cappable of handling the N1K2-J despite the fact that the US force includes aircraft that can out turn the N1K2 as well as aircraft that can easily out run it. Oh well.)
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Not sure why the planeset always has to be "fair." It'll never be fair when you input all variables which go into a fight and which includes pilot experience/skill, altitude, a numbers advantage and more. Lazze fare and the sides may actually alter to remove any benefit due to airframe superiority by a migration of players to the handicapped side. It's never going to be fair and certainly never will to late-war Pac fans.
But I don't play the CT anymore, so I'm not all that concerned.
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Well said Puke,
What does fair have to do with war?
And why do we need an "elite" group of super users to tell us what fair is?
Why not just set terms based on historic accuracy and let the chips fall where they may?
We should just call it the "The politically correct arena".
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Well this isnt War, this is a game, and we try and adhear to the following premis:
Never sacrifice Gameplay for historical accuracery.
And in the Curent set up, the only plane left out is the C hog( and the 4), and the Rest of the Hog's are only moderatly limited, which is in keeping with my above comment's regarding it in PAC set up's, limited or absent.
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*chuckle*
Of course that's depends on who's gameplay is being sacrificed. ;)
No matter. The current setup is working out fine. IJ fighters racking up kills and gritching anyway. Allies plodding along and managing to actually get a kill here and there, take a base here and there and so far no planes have been axed, no fleets arbitrarily reset, no staff members using the magic buttons to change the board around to suit themselves.
It's made it past the 48 hour mark. Maybe it'll go all the way! :D
;)
Kanatori ... good job, man. :)
(Ok ... now I've gone and done it. The last time I mentioned how fine everything was ....) :eek:
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Never sacrifice Gameplay for historical accuracery.
Then make it so the sides are even in numbers and skill and that everyone starts the fight at the same altitude and speed and...blah blah. I know, let's all just fly the same danged aircraft, that's fair, you know.
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Never sacrifice Gameplay for historical accuracery
If HT or Pyro said that I would cancel my membership immediately.
The historic accuracy is the draw of Aces High.
Fighter Ace, CFS and WB are cheaper. If I wanted to play an in an arcade type arena I would go there.
Hell, why not give the Japanese the ME-262, that should even things up a bit.
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Dude you are in a dream world. Theres nothing "historical" about ah gameplay. Theres nothing historical about any sorties flown in ah in any event or arena.
The CT is the Combat Theater, not some Historical arena. The cms introduce the "historical" part when they brought in specific maps. But they never held to anything specifically "historic". The first ct setup was on the norway map with just the lw vrs raf all planes. the we moved to the eto map, allies vrs axis all planes. Then pyro turned it over to the cms. Each cm comes up with his own set up. We have seen set ups with all planes available. To just a few. Not in any one was "historical" the main focus. It was balanced gameplay to give boths sides the ability to have fun.
Its no fun chasing a plane around thats 70 mph faster.
If the set up is not sufficiently fun to keep people interested then it sux and wont be fun. People arent going to fly in arena thats not fun. So you can be in the ct with your one sided setup by yourself wondering why no one flies there.
Just earlier today brady and I were talking and he decided to enable the FM2 at all land based fields because of the non-historical way in which the carriers were being operated. they kept getting sunk. This limited the allies to jugs. The bases are so close together that a jug vrs any jap plane gets plum tore up.
One non historical re action to correct a non historical action.
Thats how it works. I have been on the command staff for just about every ah event. If something "historical" is not fun its not included. This is the same in Squad ops, cap ,snapshots, you name it happens.
Where are you flying "historically"? In the main? CT? Events? DA? where?
No where, thats where.
No one here "enlisted" into AH and no one has to fly something they thinks sux.
Tardlo feels that when brady removed the f4u-1 from a set up where it faced the a6m2 was "unfair". Its not that he fights anyway.
Balanced gameplay is a part of every aspect of ah, from events to the main and everything in between.
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Woe-tan's upset! Oh yeah. F4U in a CT arena again. He get's that way. Nothing to really fret over unless actual active CT CMs take him too seriously. ;)
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The CT is the Combat Theater, not some Historical arena. The cms introduce the "historical" part when they brought in specific maps. But they never held to anything specifically "historic".
Sure it is. That's why it's Axis v Allies for one thing, because it's historic. The CT takes specific timeframes and/or battles and allow the historical sides to duke it out. I've not seen the USN v Germans and that's because it's not historical enough for the CT. However, my personal preference would be to take a specific timeframe and allow the same planesets on both sides so it's not Axis v Allies. This also allows for the arena to be "even" and "fair" for both sides yet still allows early-war fans some good fights. That's just me. But to say the CT is not historically-based is really stretching things IMO.
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Your clueless Puke,
The ct cms make the setups. They can make whatever they want. They have had setups almost like the main. Theres no "rule". The axis allies is product of what the cms decide. Making it allies axis in its self isnt historical.
When I was a ct cm the guy with the next set up outlined his idea for the other cms to read. They gave input but the guy who was up made the descision.
There have been plenty of fantasy ct setups as well.
Tardlo
Upset? nah just pointing out the stupidity of those who claim "historical". Nothing is historical about ah. Any where it comes close to historical it gets tempered by gameplay considerations. This how it should be.
Even you know that. You just think Brady cheats you.
The current setup has it all. But most importantly its very fun. The only thing that may be impacting the overall fun level is the amount of ack (some say it hurts their fps), buts its not all that deadly, and the fact that the allied cvs keep getting parked close to a field and then sunk.
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Originally posted by Arlo
IJ fighters racking up kills and gritching anyway.
Where are these complaining IJ players? All I've seen whining wise is Allied players.
Give us the F4U-1C or this isn't fair. WAAAAAAA!!!!!:( :( :( :(
Give us the P-51D or this isn't fair. WAAAAAAAA!!!!!:( :( :( :( :(
If I were a CM the first setup I'd run would be a Guadalcanal, 1942 setup as follows:
USA:
A-20G (All land bases)
Boston Mk III (All land bases)
C-47A (All land bases)
F4F-4 Wildcat (All CVs)
F4U-1 (50% of land bases)
P-40E (50% of land bases)
PT-Boat (All fleets)
SBD-5 (All CVs)
TBM-3 (All CVs)
LVT-2 (All fleets)
LVT-4 (All fleets)
PT-Boat (All fleets)
M-3 (All land bases)
M-8 (All land bases)
M-16 (All land bases)
Panzer IV H (All land bases)
Japan:
Special: No CVs
A6M2 (All land bases)
B5N2 (All land bases)
C-47A (All land bases)
D3A1 (All land bases)
Ki-61-I-KAIc (25% of land bases, 5 perk points)
LVT-2 (All fleets)
LVT-4 (All fleets)
M-3 (All land bases)
M-8 (All land bases)
M-16 (All land bases)
I know that is by no means perfectly accurate from a historical stand point, thinks like the Ki-61 and SBD-5 shouldn't be there and the Japanese shouldn't have an US equipment. Those things are all there as stand ins.
Oh yes, the Panzer IV H should be right out, but I feel that giving the USA the Panzer IV H and the Japanese the M-8 gives some semblance of the historical relationship between US armor and Japanese armor.
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Man this thread is a revelation for me.
All this time I thought the CT was for Historic scenarios?
I'm still not sure why your using custom maps and limits on available a/c and fields if it is not "historic"?
And if it is not historic why have a seperate arena from the MA?
Karnak,
The name of this thread is "The Shoki would have really been nice".
What allied whining is going on? Who asked for the P-51 or C-Hog?
I asked for the Shoki and I was told I should be asking for the Tony.
I asked why the F4U-1 wasn't in the 1943 senario and I was told it isn't fair. Just imagine how the Japanese felt.
BTW, your senario isn't fair either. You must be whining.
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F4UDOA,
I'd be fine with the setup I described.
I don't suspect that I'm typical of that and I also suspect that the "pro-F4U" guys wouldn't be fine with it by the middle of the week, but it would be fine with me.
As to the Japanese and the F4U-1. No, I doubt very much that they liked it when it appeared. However, there are a few points in their favor that reduce the performance difference and which do not exist in AH.
1) Most aircraft they encountered were not F4Us.
2) Most group on group fights were one type against one type (A6M vs F4F, Ki-61 vs P-40E, ect).
3) They had better aircraft in the form of things like the A6M3a, D3A2, D4Y1, Ki-61-I-Otsu, ect, ect.
4) US pilots still all to frequently misused their aircraft by consenting to a turn fight.
Points 1, 2 and 3 are the ones that it seems to me that the Allied players in this game seem most determined to ignore/deny.
Both sides are having their better aircraft denied them in the late 1942/early 1943 scenarios. The Japanese because their aircraft simply do not exist in AH and the Americans because it is completely imbalanced without those missing Japanese aircraft if they get their time frame appropriate aircraft.
The reason that we don't want the Ki-44 that you proposed is because like the D3A1 and B5N2 it would actually weaken the Japanese forces and increase the imbalance. It would replace the Army fighter we have, armed with two 20mm cannon and two 12.7mm machine guns with a slower fighter armed with two 12.7mm machine guns and two 7.7mm machine guns.
That is why those of use who actually fly the Japanese aircraft are as vehemenent about this are we are.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Where are these complaining IJ players? All I've seen whining wise is Allied players.
Give us the F4U-1C or this isn't fair. WAAAAAAA!!!!! :(
Give us the P-51D or this isn't fair. WAAAAAAAA!!!!! :(
:D Relax Karnak .... wasn't talkin bout you. Wotan generally logs on and immediately goes into his. "I'm bored. You're boring. This is boring. Fwy my way. Wun Fowwest wun! Tewl me if you wanna fiwight cawse Iw'll wog if you don't turn fiwight your F4uuuuuu."
Meanwhile there's endless messages in the buffer:
So-n-so lands 8 kills in a Nik2j
Whatsisname lands 6 kills in a Ki-61
Guy lands 4 kills in an A6M5
etc. etc.
The way Wotan goes on and on you'd think he was trying to make others believe Okinawa is an absolute failure and totally unfair to the IJ side. No fun! Waaaaaa!
It was a decent change of pace to see him just putter around and land kills in silence tonight. Almost makes me regret teasin' him about it. ;)
Here, on the boards, we get a couple guys. One feller who would like to see P-51s and another player somewhere in the thread asks about the C-Hog ... and a gajillion responses from IJ players that make a hissy stink that the allied players are a whinin their tokuses off.
Funny as hell, really. :D
Okinawa's fine. IJ players get many kills, Joe! Joe flys favorite rides (with a couple of exceptions but even those players who mentioned them seem to be enjoying themselves just fine). CM ain't "fixin' what ain't broke." So, hey ... looks like this one may be considered pretty much a success by everyone. You agree? :)
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Not to be overly anal, but I am not a CM.
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Yer tellin' me!
*chuckle*
Ahem ....
sowwy. ;)
:D
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Any CT setup is the imagination of the ct cm whos turn is up. These CT cms go out and find guys to make maps specifically for the ct so that that map can be used in there set up. Some maps were originally designed for an event. Some have historical flavors, some dont. But the CT is not an HA. There have been many a ct set up thats pure fantasy. Take Nuttz's Perdona, its a great fun map. Most of the time it was run with most planes enabled. Sometimes it served as an eastern front set up etc. They even ran a Korean set up.
The ct when it first came out had no field capture and was truly a combat arena with limations on radar, icons and the land grab of the main. There was no strat or any of that.
It drew the same numbers as we see now. Only different people flew there. When the Ct was turned over to cms by pyro those originally cms made a thread looking to find out what they can do to increase its appeal. The majority who replied wanted field capture, scoring and most of the main settings. But they wanted an arena that ran a variety of plane match ups. The cms rotated their set ups each week to keep the arena fresh and if some didnt care for BoB it would only be ther a week. This brought in a new group but the older group stopped flying there. So the numbers stayed about the same. High numbers are in the 60s.
Any historical parts of the ct are what a particular cm wants to include in his set up. The cms themselves have different ideas and approaches. When I was a cm I never ran a pac set up because quite frankly they suck. But Sabre Jarbo and Buzzbait and Brady all ran variations of pac set ups so no one missed out. I know buzzbait ran F4us f6fs vrs the lw on the norway map a few times.
The ct cant run strictly historical set ups because the gaps in the planeset dont allow it and if a set up is to out of balance the arena numbers drop off. They can try to come with good plane match ups on good maps. Some plane match ups on a particular maps suck, some are fine. The current ct set up is lotsa fun. Its the best pac set up I have yet to fly in. This is due to the map and the creativity of the CM. Not because this or that particular plane is enabled. Cms will also make adjustments to keep decent gameplay. Like removing a plane or reassigning airfields so that the best fights occur.
Theres a core of maybe 25 folks who will fly the ct no matter what. The rest are casual folks who fly set ups they like or to try out a new map.
The big draws for the ct is always new maps the rest depends on how balanced the gameplay will be.
As to "fairness" thats a leftist liberal term. "Funness" is better. In this set ups its fun to fight Fm2s, f4us, f6fs in an a6m5. In the slot map its no fun fighting F4u-1s with a6m2s. It doesnt matter how historic it was.
Whats the difference between the ct and the main? Not much any more but in the beginning it was very different. The main difference now is the maps and the plane match ups. You can escape the spit, spit, spit, spit, spit, p51, p51, la7, la7, la7 furball.
BTW the shoki would be nice :p
btw tardlo
I said this ct set up was fun. I said chasing you around in circles is not fun. I cant believe getting 2 kills an hour is fun either but thats your thing. I finally understand your objections to training in Ah2:tod.
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Originally posted by Batz
Important hidden clues
clue 1
It drew the same numbers as we see now.
looking to find out what they can do to increase its appeal.
the numbers stayed about the same.
clue 2
The current ct set up is lotsa fun.
clue 3
Not because this or that particular plane is enabled. (Or disabled -case in point .... {eg} .... the F4uuuuuuuu.)
clue 4
Theres a core of maybe 25 folks who will fly the ct no matter what. The rest are casual folks who fly set ups they like or to try out a new map.
But ... apparently the loss of players and the failure to draw in much new blood in no way reflects mismanagement of the CT.
Kannitori has managed to put up a pretty good setup. If it isn't mucked around with too much and the experience from it is used as an example for future works .... you may eventually see an upward trend. :)
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On average our Number's are about 50% better than they were when I stated on the CT Staff, we have much better atandance than we did a year ago, then 30 or 40 was alot, now we see 70 or more often.
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actually when the ct first was started 50 guys was normal at prime time. After a series of late war pacs on the island map where the us had every plane vrs the a6m5 you saw a decline. They jumped back up when tunisia and the bob maps were brought in. Also the plane choices grew. But there are no more folks flying in the ct now then were when there was no base capture. There are just different people.
I havent seen 70 guys unless the main is down. Last night was 61. But these are highs not averages.
Tardlo this set up has already been tweaked, you just arent paying attention.
The tweaks the ct cms make have never caused numbers to drop.
The set up run on this map will change between ct cms and will change when the new map build comes out.
The high numbers here could be attributed to a new map. After the newness wears off we will see.
You also miss the point that the f4us are limited and when they are in action the cv admiral parks them 5 miles off shore. With no alt they cant run. The dhog gets ignored because its east and is over there where you milkrunners spend your time at 16 17 18 19. No one cares so they dont bother. But when I did go there for a fight it was your typical bore n ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
The FM2 is a fun plain to fight and there are some real good guys flying the f6f. Its these planes that make it fun. Brady added the fm2 to land bases because it was kinda unfair to the allies to force them to fly the jug because some idiot admiral keeps getting their cvs sunk. So I would say the F4u is the least fun thing in this set up :p
The rest makes up for it though. Theres no question this is the best late war pac yet.
:D
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Yeah yeah .. it had some bases added to prevent the odd reset that enabled all planes and some other minor but essential stuff. I've never argued about that, Mr. "Attentive." ;)
What this setup hasn't had, so far, is a panic knee-jerk reaction to an Allied player actually landing as many or more kills as an Axis one yet. There's probably been a few instances of it, even.
Oh .... do you obsess over the F4U in real life as well? Do you have nightmares about it and wake up in a cold sweat then compose yourself and pretend that it was "boredom" that made you wet yourself?
Hehe ....
Yeah yeah ... I know ... it really doesn't matter to you but .... but ..... look, behind you, F4uuuuuuu! :D
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I was jointing to the obvious. Take the f4u-d we never see it. Its hdden on the cv on the east side of the island where the milkrunners keep milking 16 17 18.
The f4u-1 gets jacked up as soon as it ups. Infact we see very little f4us compared to the jug f6f and fm2.
Do you dispute this?
Its not like in the slot where 5 or 6 guys would fly 4 sectors to club a6m2s they were otr fighting f4fs.
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Originally posted by Batz
I was jointing to the obvious. Take the f4u-d we never see it. Its hdden on the cv on the east side of the island where the milkrunners keep milking 16 17 18.
The f4u-1 gets jacked up as soon as it ups. Infact we see very little f4us compared to the jug f6f and fm2.
Do you dispute this?
Its not like in the slot where 5 or 6 guys would fly 4 sectors to club a6m2s they were otr fighting f4fs.
Sure I dispute it. Got film to prove it. All 4 fleets were on the west side of the island last night. Fights were from 20 ft off the deck to 15k. F4U1ds, F6Fs, a few FM2s and a few F4U-1s ... not hardly any Jugs to speak of.
If you intend to "joint" to the obvious, you may want to check around with some other players to see if you have a clue about what you're talking about first. Ask Najdorf. Ask eddieK. ;)
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Friday was the 1st day of the setup. It was sunk and on saturday and sunday it was parked off 16 17 18 and 28. Yes I got film of me shooting your f4u-d down 3 or 4 times over a16 as well as several other f4u-ds. As well as brady shooting you down as you ran into ack after I had shot you up good. It may have been sunk at some point but as I said know one cared. the only reason we flew over there was the other fleets had been sunk again. We left when a better fight developed near a8.
The arena was reset today but it will end up east again. But now theres sbs at all coastal fields.
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I logged into the CT this afternoon hoping to fly my F4U-1 against some NIK2, A6M5 and Tony's.
You know what I saw? ME163's, 109's and every other A/C enabled.
Brady was fixing it but I had to log.
You were right about the non historic part. Is it always that much fun?
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Woe-tan cried:
Take the f4u-d we never see it. Its hdden on the cv on the east side of the island where the milkrunners keep milking 16 17 18.
The f4u-1 gets jacked up as soon as it ups. Infact we see very little f4us compared to the jug f6f and fm2.
Do you dispute this?
Once again, Woe-tan, last night ALL fleets were run up the WEST side of the island (you know ... where the only SBs were before the fix). Furballs happened the entire time. F4Us (both variants) participated. You asked if I disputed your claim. I did. I never said the fleets never ran up the East side of the island during the setup. You claimed they never run up the West side. You claimed the F4U does nothing but "hide" to make milk runs on the East side of the island. You made stupid assumptions. It's not the first time. Suck it up and take it like .... well .... do the best you can.
Besides, you were able to figure out that you can fly Japanese aircraft East to defend the Vehicle bases. It made for some fine sorties, didn't it? You come up with the damnedest excuses to cry. :D
But ... once again, no matter. Now there's SBs on both sides. But I'm sure you'll find yet another reason to cry about the Allies not fighting you the way you want them to. ;)
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They werent assumptions, yesterday was sunday. Earlyin the day the fleet that had f4u-ds was ne of 16. On staurday that fleet was sialed up the east side to milkrun 16 17 18 and later that night moved up the coast to take 28.
So it certainly was hiding east of the island. Thats where you kept running remember. It was brady and I in nikis vrs 4 or so F4u-ds. Drunky made 2 ki 67 passes on the fleet and logged. I told you how boring it was fighting you and went down to 8.
Those arent assumptions its facts.
As I said it may have been eventually sunk but who cares for almost 2 days no one saw it.
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Yeah, whatever Woe-tan-little. The fleets never sailed up the West side of the island. The furballs never happened. The F4U is only used for milk-runs. And the sky is falling. Hanky? :D
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Originally posted by Batz
The CT is the Combat Theater, not some Historical arena. The cms introduce the "historical" part when they brought in specific maps. But they never held to anything specifically "historic".
It seems that HTC disagrees with your conclusion.
Right from the HTC website, under HELP, ARENAS:
"The Combat Theater is set up for historical gameplay. There is a two sided war, a limited plane set, and reduced radar."
My regards,
Widewing
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The USN was out in force west of the island. Fights were plentiful, from the deck on up to about 8K (high as I climbed).
Saw mostly F4F's, F6F's, and a gaggle or two of F4U's. Even saw a PT boat down there, ready to bail out any USN pilot who got in trouble and had to dive for the deck and the nearby fleet acks.
Between the fleet acks and the PT boat (PE6Hawk, was it?), the fights were interesting to say the least.
Ya knew ya had to make your shots count, cause once your opponent lost any edge, he was outta there, headed for the fleet and it's protective ack umbrella.
THAT is one thing that I hope HT someday changes: Fleet ack should be dangerous to enemy and friendly planes alike.
Arlo, before you come back with any remark about me being an Axis lover, consider that the only reason I keep flying Axis is to balance the sides. I would MUCH rather have been in a Jug, mixing it up on the deck with Ki-61's and N1K2's. See, I am one of those nutty Jug drivers who does the TnB thing too......not very good at it, but ask najdorf. I actually won one against his N1K2 in the last Slot setup, on the deck, less than 30 seconds after I took off from Henderson Field. After that I locked horns with some Zeroes, again, on the deck and in a turnfight........ended up with 6 kills, but the runway bug at Henderson ate them and I got credited with a ditch.
;)
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widewing the cms can make any set up they want historical or otherwise. Regardless of what that says. As I said they mere fact that there have been many many fantasy maps shows thats its not an historical set up. So theres spin and theres facts. I have flew in the ct since day 1 it didnt start "historical" and it aint "historical" now.
Quoting a few words doesnt mean anything. Theres not one bit of "history" in any arena in ah.
Oh planeset aside describe the "historical gameplay" you see. Its the same as the main. "Historical gameplay" doesnt mean "Historical Arena".
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Originally posted by eddiek
The USN was out in force west of the island. Fights were plentiful, from the deck on up to about 8K (high as I climbed).
Saw mostly F4F's, F6F's, and a gaggle or two of F4U's. Even saw a PT boat down there, ready to bail out any USN pilot who got in trouble and had to dive for the deck and the nearby fleet acks.
Between the fleet acks and the PT boat (PE6Hawk, was it?), the fights were interesting to say the least.
Ya knew ya had to make your shots count, cause once your opponent lost any edge, he was outta there, headed for the fleet and it's protective ack umbrella.
THAT is one thing that I hope HT someday changes: Fleet ack should be dangerous to enemy and friendly planes alike.
Arlo, before you come back with any remark about me being an Axis lover, consider that the only reason I keep flying Axis is to balance the sides. I would MUCH rather have been in a Jug, mixing it up on the deck with Ki-61's and N1K2's. See, I am one of those nutty Jug drivers who does the TnB thing too......not very good at it, but ask najdorf. I actually won one against his N1K2 in the last Slot setup, on the deck, less than 30 seconds after I took off from Henderson Field. After that I locked horns with some Zeroes, again, on the deck and in a turnfight........ended up with 6 kills, but the runway bug at Henderson ate them and I got credited with a ditch.
;)
Wasn't even thinkin of branding yer forehead with a scarlet rising sun, eddie. But I do find your complaint about the Allied pt interesting. The last fight I had that night was lil `ol me vs 2 Niks and an IJ pt. And yes, it was coordinated to stay directly over the pt and low. I agree ... it sure makes it interesting.
And the ack on the island is no less cover for the IJ than the ack over the fleet. Don't pretend that's not the case. Ack running whines are just like any other whine. All of them devolve down to - "I didn't get to kill him - no fair." But still, thanks for speaking up and confirming that the Allies weren't just keeping the fleet on the East side and "milkrunning" the corsair. ;)
and yeah, you fly them IJ ac even better'n the Jug. :D
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It would be nice to get a few planes that will actually be used on a regular basis.
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I am shure the Ki 44 would be used frequently, and the Ki 84 is likely the last of the Dweab planes(or one of them) to be added, it will likely see more use than many care to imagine.
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And yes, I'm still a volunteer on the "committe dedicated to getting more planes modeled for the IJ planeset." I'm even of the mind to just let the dedicated IJ players pick the ones they want most and I'll just add my name to the petition. :)
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Originally posted by brady
I am shure the Ki 44 would be used frequently, and the Ki 84 is likely the last of the Dweab planes(or one of them) to be added, it will likely see more use than many care to imagine.
I'd fly the Ki-44 Shoki. From what I've read in various WW2 fighter plane synopsis books, it looks like a pretty interesting BnZ plane. Four 12.7mm (.50 calibre) machine guns is plenty strong to bring down fighters and bombers. I do it frequently in FM2s and P51Bs. Max airspeed of 373 mph with a 250 mph cruising speed would make it competitive in the MA and possibly be an answer to the F4U in the CT.
(http://oldwolf.myrice.com/japaneseaircraft/images/ki44-01.gif)
I'd also try the Ki-43 Oscar in the III variant because I think a pair of 20mm is the better guns package of the Oscar, but since it didn't reach production then I would settle for the Ki-43-II with the pair of .50cals. I don't see this plane getting much use in the MA, though.
(http://oldwolf.myrice.com/japaneseaircraft/images/ki43-01.jpg)
I think the initial version of the Ki-84 Hayate would be a good addition to the MA and wouldn't upset the balance too much in a CT if Mustangs, Corsairs, and Thunderbolts were involved. Two 20mm cannons and two 12.7mm (.50 calibre) machine guns would make it less lethal than the N1K2.
(http://www.fighterplanes.net/frankcover1.jpg)
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The problem is that their Not 50cal MG's as most people tend to think of them, they are 12.7mm rounds just like the us 50cal is 12.7mm, but that is the only thing they have in common, the US 50 Cal Slug is Biger (weighs more and is longer) and has a higher MV, and about Twice the effective range as the Japanese Ho-103 which is their army 12.7mm. If you want to Experance the differance try uping a Tony and just using the Two 12.7mm MG's in air to air combat.
Below you will See the US 50 cal on the left and the Ho-103 on the right.
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/46005/0.jpg)
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Any clues what this is?
Originally posted by joeblogs
What is TAIC?
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Joe B,
Tactical Air Intelligence Command.
That is without looking at the book to make sure but from memory that's it.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Joe B,
Tactical Air Intelligence Command.
That is without looking at the book to make sure but from memory that's it.
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It's Q3 Now right?
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No .... that would be July.
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eack quarter is 3 months Brady :p
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Just looking at the TAIC report on the KI-44 and thinking what a shame it is that we haven't had that thing in AH.(http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/files/pictures/aviation/ww2/japan/ki44/ki44-taic-part1.jpg)
How can I browse those charts and reports at http://www.allaboutwarfare.com?
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Doh.:)