Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: nopoop on May 29, 2003, 03:18:52 PM
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Enjoy your thumb candy. We slow-witted boredom tolerant types will continue to play the thinking man's game
You have a basic misconception. Let me splain..
Furballing is a thinking mans game. In more ways more than anything else available in the game.
It doesn't involve vulching, it doesn't involve gangbanging. It doesn't involve base capture or the war.
It is pure ACM in a multi-con envirement. It is about SA, about constantly reevaluating your energy and position in relation to your enemies. It is ALL about thinking, reacting and making the correct decisions in a split second on the fly..
If you don't, you die.
It's fast, it's intense, your always in an SA overload and how you learn and adapt to it is what lights the fire.
It's all about fighting, and fighting well.
To do well in it is what us furballers strive for.
Take few minutes and download two films from our website. They both are PERFECT examples of what a furballer strives for.
If nothing else, you'll see a thing of beauty, two of the best at their trade.
Drex's F6F film and Leviathn's Spit V film.
Films (http://hstrial-co.homestead.com/Films.html)
For there isn't anything better for a thinking man, then having too much information along with too many decisions to be made in a short timeframe, and having to deal with it.
We're very protective in insuring that the places in game where furballing is possible, remain so.
Otherwise boredom sets in.
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furball? acm?
If you take the spits and n1ks out of the picture you will have some ACM. But then again, you wont have much furball left if you do.
Furballs in AH thanks to icons and those 2 above mentioned planes are nothing more than quake turn-point-click cannonspray fests.
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Originally posted by OIO
Furballs in AH thanks to icons and those 2 above mentioned planes are nothing more than quake turn-point-click cannonspray fests.
Spoken like a true ignoramous.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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99 % of the B&Z'ers , including myself , would trade places with Drex or Leviathon in a heartbeat.
10% of that group , the loudest advocates against low altitude fighting need to spend time at it to see it ain't mindless. Going into a mass furball at 4K and coming out the other side with kills takes skill , SA , and smarts.
There are few players in AH that can drop there ordanance on a field and dogfight successfully.
Best 2 squads I know of are the AK's and Fariz's squad. I've seen these guys level fields and up and defend bases or just go look for a fight.
These players probably enjoy the game more than anyone cause no matter what's goin on they are smack dab in the middle of the action.
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Originally posted by OIO
furball? acm?
If you take the spits and n1ks out of the picture you will have some ACM. But then again, you wont have much furball left if you do.
Furballs in AH thanks to icons and those 2 above mentioned planes are nothing more than quake turn-point-click cannonspray fests.
I have been bringing the Spit leV lately to the furball and have not had any problem bringing 3-5 scalps back home with me and the majority of those scalps are the above mentioned planes.
What man-ly and handicapped plane are you bringing to the furball ? Let me guess a 190 or a 109 ...
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Everybody has an opinion.
(puts on body armor, hunkers down in the bunker)
I think of it like this:
You're playing Doom II. Doom II is fun. Does it require skill to play Doom II? Hell, yes! In Doom II, though, you are always the same player, fighting the same monsters. The only thing that can change is the difficulty level. Once you hit "nightmare", it can't get any tougher.
ACM is a well-defined dance. SA is required, for sure. You can get books that explain the moves, and the big variable is what the other guy decides to do under a given set of circumstances. There are limits to what he can do, and survive. Those that do nothing but dance can get pretty good at it. You guys are pretty good.
I'm playing chess. Chess is fun. Does it require skill to play chess? Hell, yes! In chess, there are 6 different types of player pieces on two sides. Each type of piece moves in its own way. Admittedly, there are limits to the number of permutations that a chess game can take, but I haven't learned all of them yet. Sometimes I concentrate on my knight, sometimes on the rook, sometimes on a lowly pawn. Although I do know what the ultimate goal of my opponent is, I don't have any idea how he plans to get there.
In the furball, everybody has the same goal, and the same strategy--shoot down the other plane and land the kill. The furballers seem to seek each other out, in order to facilitate this. In the strat game, you put in a mixture of a little bit of furball, a little bit of misdirection, a little bit of sneakiness, and (if you have the numbers) a little bit of excessive force. On the defensive side, there is the need to try to successfully anticipate the moves the other sides make--upping a fighter with the enemy raid already in your sector is suicide, and doesn't defend the field worth a darn. You gotta hit 'em BEFORE they deliver the ordnance, not hang around the field picking them off on the way out (small nod, wink-wink, knowing glance to you field defenders).
It's not always the front-line fields that are attacked.
I like my game better than I like yours. I don't like that you think my way is nothing more than an irritant. I think we can both play our game and have fun. This is a multi-mode game. My big question is "why don't you guys go to the duelling arena?" Seriously. Answer that question, and not with "Because I don't want to." If the strat game is so tedious and bothersome, get rid of it. Oh, wait--they already allowed for that. In the duelling arena.
Nopoop, have fun. I will, too. But quit the kvetching about how my game is somehow inferior to yours, and gets in your way. I am bored by it. It sounds like children quarreling over the rules while playing Monopoly. Get over yourself.
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You know what I've noticed the past couple of days? That the side that can win the furball and push the other guy back to his base will set it up beautifully for a base capture. The only problem is that nobody brings bombs to take out the vh so a couple of GVs will park on the base or near the town and make the job tougher. That's why I've gotten most of my kills in a Panzer this tour. :D
I've upped a fighter with enemy inbound in my sector. I've learned that you gotta let the first couple through until you can get some distance from the base and get some altitude to fight with. Otherwise you'll just be fighting on the deck over your own runway while Typhoons and P51Ds come screaming down with ordinance. So I like to get about mid-way between my base and the enemy base and catch'em when they're heavy and below me. Once I've smacked a few down and have set up a perimeter and the other enemy planes I let go by on my climb-out have met their makers due to flak, augering, or running out of ammo and fuel, I'll usually be joined by countrymen and we can begin the push-back.
The worst place to furball is over your own base.
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hubert... the country with the most numbers "wins the war" ... the country with the most numbers will be the one "winning" the war when you check the map. All the other "thinkingmans game" is just mental masterbation.
There, see how simple? some day soon you will also see that every furball is different. some just learn slower than others.
lazs
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If you can't be civil, why not get out of the conversation? I don't care if you ever see my point, I just wish that you could recognize that other points are valid, too. I think you have every right to enjoy the game any way you want to play it. Furball? Enjoy. Spy for another country? Have fun. Figure out a new angle? Good for you.
You are so into yourself that I'll bet you have a picture of you on your nightstand so you can kiss it before going to sleep. It's probably autographed.
(imagine Lasz2 singing in his best Elvis imitation) "That's the won-derrr, the wonder of me":rolleyes:
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"If you can't be civil, why not get out of the conversation?"
seems that someone should take their own advice.
lazs
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The country that can get organized wins the map. That isn't necessarily the one with the numbers. See the posts about how wasteful it is when people spend time in Tank Town on the Trinity map, for an example. When it comes to tanks, you could call me a "furballer", too. When Trinity is up, I'm usually in a tank in Tank Town, playing hide-and seek with a 75 mm gun.
And yes, that fits my definition of "thumb candy". Everybody likes sweets, sometimes. Too much sugar, though, and one becomes legarthic.
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Please note that the conversation devolves into insult immediately when you join the thread. Is there a connection? Hmmm.... let me think....
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I was invited.
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so... how long yu been playin hubert? a month or so? I am trying to save you some time... you OTOH are trying to waste mine.
Here it is again slowly... It doesn't matter about organization or thinking or anything else. The country with the largest numbers "wins" the war. When the numbers are close the game stalemates... when a country that has been "losing" because it has the least numbers, get's an infusion of numbers it gains back territory. Organization is simply having the numbers to gangbang. if you don't have the numbers the gangbang goes bad and you all die befor you can kill the toolsheds. If you don't have the numbers you might gangbang a field that has no defenders but you will lose 2 fields to the country with the most numbers in the meantime.
The furball is the meaning of life in AH. You will of course, agree with me eventually but go ahead and make a fool of yourself for now... I suppose you need to do it as a part of your personal learning experiance.
lazs
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Oh... and I think your attitude provokes people to correct you.
lazs
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This knucklehead thinks that numbers dont win wars... what a laugh... Im with Lazs on this one...
Tell that to the rooks 8 months ago bub.
we had the best pilots, we were working as a team but the numbers were 85 vs 150 vs 150 and the Knits and Bish would pound on the rooks to see who could get the reset first... It was a sad sight... imagine you complete your mission with 4-6 kills under your belt and every single base within landing range would be getting attacked ...
you fight your way thru it only to find out the whole western half of your territory is being overrun... as a result rooks got some ringers from that cluster (insert explative) so all was not lost...
Mass (numbers) is extremely important battlefield attribute...
In modern combat, technology and superior training can offset mass a good deal.. but in a WW2 prop plane sim.. Mass in my opinion is the most important thing on the battlefield.
2 cents
DoctorYo
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Look guys. You have differing views of whats fun. What's great about AH is you can both enjoy it.
The only time I get aggravated is when people ask HT to program the game to suit it to their tastes better, at the detriment of my enjoyment.
Slinging insults back and forth will only get you aggravated, though sometimes I think Lazs looks at it as a hobby.
Fly your game, and enjoy what we have.
If you really want a challenge, switch rolls for a tour. :D
Geez...Lazs as a "Fluffer". I think thats one of the signs of the apocolypse.:D
BTW, I'm a jack of all trades. I've been a dedicated Bomber pilot, and Strat weenie from day one. I've dabbled in Fighters since the beggining of the year, and I have to admit, it is fun. It requires skill, and reflexes, as well as tactical thinking. It's great when you don't have 3 hours to commit to AH.
I will always be of the opinion that Jabo and survivng, and Bombing with accuracy takes great skill also.
This is where Lazs and I have always differed in opinions.
Do what you enjoy, and leave my fun alone....that's my motto.
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THANK YOU !!!
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Originally posted by rshubert
Everybody has an opinion.
Nopoop, have fun. I will, too. But quit the kvetching about how my game is somehow inferior to yours, and gets in your way
Ahh but I never said that. I was pointing out that furballing IS a thinking mans game. I don't think your game is inferior to mine. I just want to insure "strat" ( see associated threads on base placement/fuel bunker hardness/radar placements ) is equitable to the effort put forth. If those issues are resolved ( "in the works ) my little corner of the "Big Picture" is insured.
Why not go to the DA ?? That's simple, there is only one enemy in there.. The gentlemen that hang in there are very good at what they do and they enjoy it. With the exception of the 2 on 2 I haven't been in there. That's where I learned that Curly and Nimitz are bastages..
I would suggest getting in touch with Beet1e, he is very good at the chess game besides being no slouch at the "fighting" end of it. Poor man just doesn't see the light. Too much fog and drizzle over there..
As Sax said and he's probably right, hook up with the AK's in the arena. They do it all.
My question is, did you watch the films ?
Please stop pickin on Lazs, your gonna hurt his feelings. After the cancellation of "Touched by an Angel" he hasn't been himself..
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Not at home. Work computer doesn't have film viewer on it.
It may be--hell it probably is--a perfect example of the ACM technique. It probably still won't change my mind, though. I refuse to stop liking what I like.
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I wish someone would teach Lazs how to use the sig. block, thereby saving him the bother of retyping "come towards the light", and "the numbers wins the war" over and over and over again.
I'm with Rshubert. - Furballing is an exercise in futility.
- Numerical supremacy is not necessarily what wins the war - organisation is.
- Furballing should take place in the DA, which has no strat, and not the MA, which is loaded with strat.
- It really doesn't matter which game one prefers - strat or furball. It's as silly as arguing about which is better - tea or coffee. I drink both, but I wouldn't go to Starbucks for a cup of Yorkshire tea, and I wouldn't go to an English tea room for espresso. But the coffee drinkers seem intent on smashing up the tea room because they don't like the decor, but refuse to go round the corner to Starbucks because there are more people in the tea room. :confused::rolleyes:
One of the reasons we don't have more organisation is because so many people are paranoid about their "freedom" being infringed. Waaaaah, I don't want to play YOUR way. Waaaah, I'm in charge of the big bad ship gun, and I'll pork this base (soon to become our base) if I want to. Waaaah, I've got bombs loaded, and if I can get them on target, I'm going to drop them. I don't care about YOUR war. Waaah, what's all this check 6 nonsense? Waaaah, so what if you get killed, it's a game.
And so then it comes down to the only thing the non-thinking man can understand - numerical supremacy, vulchfests and smashdowns.
I have already demonstrated to Apache and Nopoop in another thread that it's the furballers that are the bananas who have yet to move on to better things. ;) I've done furballing AND level bombing AND jabo... I now do a mixture, but with a purpose in mind.
Rshubert, glad you're a Chess player because you'll understand my analogies. I was county champion for Leicestershire in my age group in 1967. One of the problems in the school chess club was the short attention span of boys who wanted nothing more than to see a lot of pieces taken. They even devised their own game, in which all pawns counted as queens - in addition to the queen itself! No game was allowed to last more than 5 minutes. Hmmm, people like that never got on my team - I was captain. Schoolboys even devised their own rules to deal with situations they didn't like. When castling, we were instructed to move the King first, not the Rook - else the opponent might accuse us of cheating by having two moves - lol. One kid I played in an inter-school tournament was once close to tears because I took one of his pawns in accordance with the en passant rule, which he'd never heard of. :rolleyes: He tried whining to the teacher, but rules is rules... One kid didn't know the meaning of "discovered check", in which a piece is moved to expose the opponent's king to check. It was a pawn move - the pawn attacked his queen, but movement of the pawn exposed his king to check by my bishop. He didn't like that! - Tried to claim that only the piece which MOVED could put his king in check. Next move for me was PxQ - LOL.
Well, well - I see a pattern between Chess and Aces High - and not just the obvious one which is the denomination of the three countries. What I noticed in Chess was that the whiners who whined about the rules were the ones who were most inept, and had short attention spans. The really annoying thing was that they came to the chess club at all, instead of going to the school yard where they could throw things. I never did solve that mystery, just as I will never understand why the furballers come to the strat-packed MA instead of the strat-free DA.
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In the end, this is a combat flight sim and furballing is it's ultimate expression.
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Furballing is a thinking mans game. In more ways more than anything else available in the game.
Do preach…
It doesn't involve vulching, it doesn't involve gangbanging. It doesn't involve base capture or the war.
Without those fun gameplay additions, you’d be doing all your clever furballing at a neutral base. How can you work in the skilled “pirate” acm mastery gig then?
It is pure ACM in a multi-con environment. It is about SA, about constantly reevaluating your energy and position in relation to your enemies. It is ALL about thinking, reacting and making the correct decisions in a split second on the fly..
If you don't, you die.
Ah ha!
If you keep on with that bullshat, I’ll die of laughter. “Look, it’s the Spooky Pirate Bk’s! Run or turn until you get all dizzy and crash!
It's fast, it's intense, your always in an SA overload and how you learn and adapt to it is what lights the fire.
Why are you in the AH BBS, certainly your describing BF1942.
It's all about fighting, and fighting well.
To do well in it is what us furballers strive for.
Your spooky pirates, I have admitted that. And very good fighters too? Scary!
Take few minutes and download two films from our website. They both are PERFECT examples of what a furballer strives for.
If nothing else, you'll see a thing of beauty, two of the best at their trade.
I just sold my “Best of the Duke” 20 DVD set, and the Clint Eastwood set. This IS quality film, concidering.
For there isn't anything better for a thinking man, then having too much information along with too many decisions to be made in a short timeframe, and having to deal with it.
We're very protective in insuring that the places in game where furballing is possible, remain so.
Otherwise boredom sets in.
I’m surprised you got that out in one breath. You breathing through your own peehole? ahhh...bastard. Double jointed waist... I bow in awe!
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Just to make my position clear. My whine was and is the suicide/gamey element of the game, (Ramming would qualify don't you think beet1e?), not the strat thing as a whole.
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Definately watch them. It's what makes us tick.
A20 film are moves in slow motion.
Hell I reversed a 51 and a La7 on the same pass through the other night and was so surprised I couldn't kill the dirty bastages when they came out front..
Keeps you goin when your "reversal challenged"
One day I'll "get it" on a consistant basis and many dirty bastages will die..
..and the word WHOOT !! will be heard frequently in the house of poop.
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"What I noticed in Chess was that the whiners who whined about the rules were the ones who were most inept ...
Yeah ... like that whine you just posted about being rammed in your goon by another goon and making a plea/assumption that HT could/should do something about it.
You didn't like his style of gameplay, so lets ask HT to change something to adjust to your idea of what correct is.
Ya know beet1e ... in all these threads, you have been doing a good job of making your point and counter-points, but with this post, I think that you have just exposed your King to checkmate.
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Seems like having Drex is actually what makes you tick.
Still " For there isn't anything better for a thinking man, then having too much information along with too many decisions to be made in a short timeframe, and having to deal with it.
We're very protective in insuring that the places in game where furballing is possible, remain so.
Otherwise boredom sets in.
... is the only thing i will think about when I see a "BK" squad title.
Too funny, S!
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Originally posted by Creamo
I’m surprised you got that out in one breath
Creamo, that's easily explained. I was blessed with abnormally large breathing sacks..
..along with other parts that I haven't had much use for this late in life.
Rshubert meet Creamo..
I would caution about hurting his feelings also.
He CAN be cranky.
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Originally posted by lazs2
It doesn't matter about organization or thinking or anything else. The country with the largest numbers "wins" the war. lazs
Lazs,
I think I could say this is the case most often. BUT not Always..
Iv been around when the Rooks have Won the War with few numbers. In Fact Iv been in command of The RJO when we have done it. It was done with organisation and good leadership.
Now, thats the exection to your rule, But numbers are not always the key. Just most of the time ;)
I personaly play all types of ways in AH. I try to use each facet of the game that HTC provides. I send alot of nights Furballing and lone wolfing. I building battle at times and even Fluff ;)
No matter what mode I am playing in, I always like a good fight.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"What I noticed in Chess was that the whiners who whined about the rules were the ones who were most inept ...
Yeah ... like that whine you just posted about being rammed in your goon by another goon and making a plea/assumption that HT could/should do something about it.
You didn't like his style of gameplay, so lets ask HT to change something to adjust to your idea of what correct is.
Ya know beet1e ... in all these threads, you have been doing a good job of making your point and counter-points, but with this post, I think that you have just exposed your King to checkmate.
Hehe, the goon whine was a bit of fun. The annoying thing was that I slowed down believing that only he would die - such was the scenario modelled in WB - I had never seen it like that in AH. Besides, if you knew anything about chess, you'd know that you cannot "expose your king to checkmate" or even to check, as that would be an illegal move. If a player's only available moves exposed him to check, the situation is known as Stalemate. :D
But Gentlemen and Creamo, you're missing the essential point. It's not what the best gameplay is, as this is subjective. The REAL point is why the furballers should hang out in the MA instead of the DA, and then as non-strat players call for changes - to strat. :confused:
Creamo - was just kidding in the opening of the above para. ;) I'll bring you some nice vodka when I come to the US - hopefully later this year.
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Originally posted by najdorf
In the end, this is a combat flight sim and furballing is it's ultimate expression.
Simple and correct.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Yeah ... like that whine you just posted about being rammed in your goon by another goon and making a plea/assumption that HT could/should do something about it.
You didn't like his style of gameplay, so lets ask HT to change something to adjust to your idea of what correct is.
The classic Beet1e post was the one where he squeaked about people lowering their engine sounds so they could hear incoming enemy planes better.
Ack-Ack
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People who don't like to dogfight, don't like to dogfight because they are not good at it. To be good at it is very difficult. Keeping track of 3-5 bogies as well as 3-5 friendlies in your head all the while fighting the bad guy right in front of you or right behind you can be quite frustrating.
But the folks that can't DF still want to feel as if they have some impact on the game, so they kill buildings and auger into fuel dumps and declare this "the chess match".
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Originally posted by Zippatuh
Simple and correct.
I will grant that it is simple. Correct? that's the soul of the discussion.
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Originally posted by TW9
Is there not such a thing as liking everything the game has to offer? Personally, I like dogfights especially w/ my squad, i like porking bases too, which btw i dont purposely try to kill myself in the process, I like milk running factories to pad my score, i like sinking cv's w/ my "not-so-suicidal" lancs, i like vulching w/ my chog, i like spawn camping with my panz, i like bringing tiger into tank war in gv city as well as furball island, i like bringing jabo into those places and i like to intercept jabo's goign there too.. I like sneaking bases on trinity and pizza and i like winning resets..
Amazing how many of those things you could do offline.
...but if you are having fun, more power to ya. AH is all about fun afterall.
F.
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Originally posted by Furious
People who don't like to dogfight, don't like to dogfight because they are not good at it. To be good at it is very difficult. Keeping track of 3-5 bogies as well as 3-5 friendlies in your head all the while fighting the bad guy right in front of you or right behind you can be quite frustrating.
But the folks that can't DF still want to feel as if they have some impact on the game, so they kill buildings and auger into fuel dumps and declare this "the chess match".
I don't know about that. Isn't it entirely possible that there is more than one way to play the game? Wouldn't you agree?? I wonder what impact furballing has on the game as a whole--it seems like an individual sport to me. Real fighter pilots don't do it-they fly around in groups and sneak up on people, and put a bullet in 'em. This "jousting in the air" crap that goes on in AH would last about five minutes in the real world. Real fighter pilots would not get into that situation. Too much chance of dying horribly.
Not that I'm saying that I have any better ideas. Frankly, the reason we get such good results from our bombing/strafing runs is the lack of fear of dying. If all I got was one life in this game, I would drop my ord from thousands of feet higher, believe me! And I wouldn't have hundreds of kills (and deaths) in GVs.
The real reason for this is numbers. Not high numbers, but LOW numbers. A 15 plane misssion has to try to take out a base against solid defense that includes "robo ack". A real WW2 air force would use dozens of planes for the same job. we don't typically have the excess personnel available for that kind of mission due to the furball factor and the need to defend our bases.
If we get back to the basic argument, Apache thinks that "suicide dweebs" should not affect the game outcome. You seem to think they suicide intentionally to increase the damage done to the target. I don't think it does--I've had planes crash on top of the field gun or GV I was manning without damage. Lassie thinks that anyone who spends time taking bases is wasting his (lassie's) time. Nopoop thinks that ACM is the be-all, end-all of existence. I think that the strategic game is a lot of fun, and I play that way. I think furballing is thumb-candy, but I like candy, too. I just can't live on candy only.
I don't insist that nopoop, Apache, and lassie play the strat game with me. Why do they insist that the strat game be changed to match their convenience in the furball game? I think that attitude, considering the availabilty of an arena that has no strat, is childish. If the hardness of the targets in the MA were changed to match their desires, people might move to the CT. Would the Burger King (BK) boys then move there (for the target rich environment) and then demand that that arena be changed, too?
The specious argument that there aren't enough people in the duelling arena doesn't carry much weight if you suppose that ALL the furballers would go there. They stay where the numbers are so they can vulch fields, shoot down heavy jabos, M3s, and goons. And that's really ok--hell, it's better than ok--by me. I just would like it if they coordinated their activity a little bit more with the strat game. Note: that is not a demand or even a request.
I'll tell you what. Next time you guys get on, check to see if I'm on. If so, send me a message on Channel 1 as to where your furball is taking place. I will respond accordingly, and avoid ruining your fun. Really. Trust me. I would NEVER use that information to get a few friends together to bomb the crap out of your field. Really.;)
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Apache, forget it. No one wants to listen to you because you're actually making some semblance of sense, and even more so to the point, you're not actually trying to make this a fur vs strat argument. That'd take all the fun out of the mindless bantering that's going on.
Aside from the suiciders having a disproportionate effect on the arena, there is no wrong or right to the fur vs strat "debate." It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi (or vice versa.) It's purely a matter of taste.
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Originally posted by Nifty
Apache, forget it. No one wants to listen to you because you're actually making some semblance of sense, and even more so to the point, you're not actually trying to make this a fur vs strat argument. That'd take all the fun out of the mindless bantering that's going on.
Aside from the suiciders having a disproportionate effect on the arena, there is no wrong or right to the fur vs strat "debate." It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi (or vice versa.) It's purely a matter of taste.
Nifty, the difference is this: The coke drinkers aren't trying to change the formula for pepsi. The furballers want to change the rules of the game to accomodate their desires. That is my objection.
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Originally posted by rshubert
...I'll tell you what. Next time you guys get on, check to see if I'm on. If so, send me a message on Channel 1 as to where your furball is taking place. I will respond accordingly, and avoid ruining your fun. Really. Trust me. I would NEVER use that information to get a few friends together to bomb the crap out of your field. Really.;)
or better yet, come try shooting us down.
But if you have already admitted to yourself that you can't compete against "live" humans, by all means have at the buildings.
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Originally posted by Nifty
Apache, forget it. No one wants to listen to you because you're actually making some semblance of sense, and even more so to the point, you're not actually trying to make this a fur vs strat argument. That'd take all the fun out of the mindless bantering that's going on.
Aside from the suiciders having a disproportionate effect on the arena, there is no wrong or right to the fur vs strat "debate." It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi (or vice versa.) It's purely a matter of taste.
Thanks Nifty. At least someone gets my point. Heck, even HT himself saw the problem. And I quote from a thread in December:
On Suicide bombing.
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.
What do you gents think?
HiTech
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Originally posted by Furious
or better yet, come try shooting us down.
But if you have already admitted to yourself that you can't compete against "live" humans, by all means have at the buildings.
There are plenty of live humans at the fields I bomb. Plenty. They may not be up to your standard of pure Winged Killer Knights, but they're enough competition for a loser like me. (sniff-sniff, if only I could fly, sniff-sniff)
Y'all really need to get over yourselves. Really. Competititveness doesn't mean you have to belittle the opposition. That's what children do.
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Originally posted by Apache
Thanks Nifty. At least someone gets my point. Heck, even HT himself saw the problem. And I quote from a thread in December:
HT never did get around to fixing that. I guess it was not that big of a problem to him. Either that or there was just no time with AH2 work to do.
*shrugs*
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Originally posted by muckmaw
HT never did get around to fixing that.
I think your right Muck, though I would think some sort of fix would be coming with the next version.
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You guys can't really be claiming that there's any true strategic challenge to the base capture aspect of AH.
That would require that:
[list=1]
- There is a true challenge to devising and achieving strategic goals, and
- That an opponent exists who is chiefly motivated to deny you those goals and achieve their own goals.
Let's ponder the main strategic challenges: Capture base. Pork fuel at enemy front-line bases. Hmm. Rocket science.
Let's ponder the brilliant methods of achieving those objectives: Create mission with 30 Jabo's and 4 goons - ambush nearby base, or send two or three suicide P38s to pork fuel. Astounding.
The most brilliant generals in AH are those sophisticated enough to figure out that if your country has 26 fields, the imminent loser has 3 fields, and the third has 32, your country should stop fighting the loser lest you help the third country win.
I'm glad some have brains that big; if only they'd stop SHOUTING on the country channel.
Is there a challenge in capturing a heavily defended base. Absolutely. Is it fun. Sure.
I can even conceed that it's fun to do some swarming base-hopping. I don't see it, but I conceed that there are those who do.
I even like the occasional challenge of taking out an ostwind, or bombing a VH (better, a shore battery).
But to claim there's some great strategy involved, in my opinion, is absurd.
The ultimate thrill in AH is similar to that of golf. Are you "on"? Can you make the correct dicision at the moment and execute? Can you be better than the next guy this time?
When you realize that the guy you thought you had cold is in the process of reversing you, must be a hot stick, and you are going to find out if you are up to the task. That's what keeps me coming back.
You strat guys: When was the last time in the MA that you had some grand plan for winning a reset, were in the middle of executing it only to realize that the other coutry had their own plan for winning the reset and were foiling you, causing you counter their plan and adapt yours?
Right. Never. That's not the way the MA works. There's no chess-like strategy involved.
Just my nickels worth.
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Originally posted by nopoop
I think your right Muck, though I would think some sort of fix would be coming with the next version.
He seemed very interesting in a fix, even soliciting ideas from idiots like us!;)
I'n betting you're right, and it will be enclosed with the big update.
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Well I agree, Muck I'm an idiot.
A certain air of calm comes over you when you come to terms with it..
But I'm rarely cranky.
Simple and dumb. With that large body part I no longer use..
I still watch the films on occasion..
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Originally posted by Furious
Amazing how many of those things you could do offline.
It's just as amazing how many of that stuff you can do online...
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by TW9
It would cut the number of suicide attempt but people will adjust and find away to hang on just a lil bit longer till there bombs ignite.. Btw how would this work for a cv? If someone drop his/her bombs on a moving cv and theres a 30sec delay the cv wont be there when they ignite..
And if u dont dive into the cv and just swoop in like i do from 5k theres a very good chance one of ur drones will survive.. Thats why i think elimating the drones would be the best option here.. And i hope this isnt something thats being considered for jabos as well.. I mean if it actually did happen in ww2 which it did, nothing should be done about it..
I think HT should stop listening to people in these threads and realize theres alot more people that dont post in these threads that arent bothered with these aspects of the game..
Kinda funny how this argument finds its way in every thread.. Its like the AHBB Plague...
Read the thread my friend. HT started it. I've been flying Hitech's sims since the early 90's. Stupid he ain't.
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Samiam, perhaps you are right. I don't think you are, but maybe I'm deluded. I doubt it, but I could be wrong.
I think there's a strategic game that consists of move and countermove. Maybe if you would play the game for a while my way, you would realize that it exists. I agree that porking the frontline bases is a simplistic strategy. But how about the strategic raid on the hq. Coordinate that with a Jabo assault and you have tactics. Decide to counter an enemy assault in one area with a raid in another to relieve the pressure, and you have strategy.
At least that's what my friends and I are doing. What are you doing? Running up your kill count in a mindless thumb-candy gut-reaction knee-jerk reflex kind of way. A tiger can kill. That doesn't make it smart.
That being said, I enjoy a good furball now and then. Just got into one off C13, shot down 3 before they got me. Two spittys and a niki. Not bad, fighting against the Energy advantage. Couldn't land them, though. They got the carrier, eventually, even though it must have cost them 50 planes. In my book, I lost. But I had a ball. Now I'm going back in to try to take some bases.
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Originally posted by rshubert
At least that's what my friends and I are doing. What are you doing? Running up your kill count in a mindless thumb-candy gut-reaction knee-jerk reflex kind of way. A tiger can kill. That doesn't make it smart.
Furballing involves neither mindlessness nor "thumb-candy gut-reaction knee-jerk reflex" -- not if you're doing it right anyway.
Size up every target, every attacker, every defender. Think ten moves ahead:
Kill this guy before you in the quickest way possible given his plane, your plane and your relative E states. Then thwart the BnZ attack of the guy who was out of range but who you know has arrived in the time it took you to kill the first enemy. In the meantime, expect that those three climbing out 5k that way are now co-alt. They're coming in three abreast, so what do you do? Avoid the poor turners, engage the slowest, realize that the earlier BnZer has returned and both reacquire and dodge him. Don't miss your shots, because doing so throws off the whole gameplan.
Not chess? It's ten times the chess that "strat" in AH could ever hope to be.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by TW9
Dont recal saying ht was stupid.. I was just giving a statement of my opinion on the matter..
No, you said he should stop listening, indicating your opinion is more valid than his...the game developer.
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Originally posted by Furious
People who don't like to dogfight, don't like to dogfight because they are not good at it. To be good at it is very difficult. Keeping track of 3-5 bogies as well as 3-5 friendlies in your head all the while fighting the bad guy right in front of you or right behind you can be quite frustrating.
I'm ranked at around 180 (fighter rank) at the time of writing. Not bad, considering I do a lot of other things in this game. Also when you consider that in Euro hours, you won't get the mass furballing numbers to be seen at US Prime Time. My point is that I have done this flying largely in organised groups with a view to field capture. I don't care for "manufactured" fights. Read my quote of Apache in my sig. - he is right on the money.
Furious also said: But the folks that can't DF still want to feel as if they have some impact on the game, so they kill buildings and auger into fuel dumps and declare this "the chess match".
Well I think I can DF, up to a point. ;) But Furious, again I must ask the question. Please answer it this time: If you don't want to see non-DFers having impact on the game, and if you don't want to see the "chess match", then given that you and your ilk of DFers are so great in number, why don't you simply move to the DA? You would never have to deal with the chess match guys ever again.
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Franky, I don't see the problem in just shooting down the base attackers. Who cares if you don't orgasm after the kill, a kill by any other name is still a kill. Maybe, it's just me, who knows but I enjoy both sides of the game. There is a thrill in coming in through a horde of defenders over a base, pickling my eggs and rockets and destroying whatever ground target(s) I engaged and then turning around and shooting down the defenders. The way I see it, I get to enjoy both parts of the game. I guess I do get to have my cake and eat it too, lucky me.
But I will agree with Apache that Pork 'N Auger runs are dweeby. It was a dweeb tactic in AW too and I imagine it was in WB as well (except I don't really remember much whining about it in WB as I did in AW or do in AH).
Ack-Ack
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leviathn is correct... the furball takes 10 times the thinking that the simplistic strat model does.. and you gotta do it fast.. but..
Other that poking fun at the pompous generals... I don't really care what they do.. as ack ack points out... I will kill them just like I would kill anyone else.
The real thing is.. the strat players are the ones who want to force people to be organized and play their way... "if people didn't waste time at tank town" or "mindless furballers fighting at a base when we needed help" or... "came all the way over to vultch and didn't even bring a bomb" etc..
Now contrast this with what I, and the furballers want... we don't want to modify the game so that people have to play our way... we want to make sure that there allways is a place (choice) to play our way... asking for some closer fields and bigger and more CV groups doesn't force strat players to do anything... their choices are not affected in the least. Making bombs over 100lbs perked doesn't affect anyojne except the suicide jabo guys who.... nobody will ADMIT to likeing.
As for low numbers winning the war with organization and teamwork... Don't make me laugh... never in prime time... maybe when the arena is down to 100 guys in some early morning hours and one whole country is not even trying to "win" and another is fanatic about it... even then... a rare event. No... when the arena is full the gameplay... strat... is written in stone.. the country with the numbers wins. pretending to be part of that win or loss is naive..
The fact remains... the very best players in this game are the furballers. they are also among the most "veteran"... everyone eventually learns that the fight is the thing in a 24/7 arena with no start or stop point.
Maybe the new "mssun arena" will siphon off some of the worst of the gangbanging suicide strat building battlers. In the mean time... I will continue to advocate a place to mix it up without it being too easily ruined or dictated by the building battlers.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
As for low numbers winning the war with organization and teamwork... Don't make me laugh... never in prime time...
heheheheee I hope your laughin...
Never is a pretty strong word.
As I said before, Im in agreement with you about Numbers normaly dictating flow. I just am pointing out "Never" isnt true either.
Id have to do alot of digging to find the actual date, but it was roughly a year and a few months ago, during prime time with roughly 600 in the arena. numbers were about Rooks 30%, Bishops 30% and Knights 40%. Rooks took the day.
So, Big deal... ;) it just started over. lol
So, outa every few hundred resets, my exception happens about once. Still not "Never"
Thats my only beef with your comments, please adjust that to "Almost Never" ;) lol
For the Record, if it wasnt for the Dogfight, there never would have been a MA to strat in. AW, WB, AH and others all started by pitting a fighter against a fighter. bombing and all came later with the good intention of stimulating meaningful combat.
The Strat system still hasnt found good balance, maybe it never will. I guess Id have to with the guys that feel a lone porker can do too much damage. The fuel issues do really hurt the planes with short legs (ie early war)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I will continue to advocate a place to mix it up without it being too easily ruined or dictated by the building battlers.
lazs
I always like the Arena with an Arena concept.
Most of us are basicly social people. We like to fly with Friends and against our opponets. The MA is the draw becasue thats where the most folks are.
The Fighter Town concept was a good one. To bad there isnt a spot in the very center of the arena with some special airfields. No Strat at the feilds, Local Radar always works, They cant be captured and have no effect on resets. No bombers available or GVs.
The only time things would be messed up is when a big raid of fighters came in for a vulch fest or during arena reseting.
Guys can dice it up there, and when there buddys arive, you can still say hello on the radio, maybe even split off to join in some dasardly plan to capture a feild.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Now contrast this with what I, and the furballers want... we don't want to modify the game so that people have to play our way... we want to make sure that there allways is a place (choice) to play our way...
ROFL!
Nice wall, Lazs. But an answer to my question is not forthcoming. You say you want to make sure that there will always be a place for you furballers to play your way. And there is! It's called the DA.
So why don't you all just go there?
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They were excellent examples of ACM. They did not change my opinion.
I particularly liked the F6F at 110 mph getting overshot by everybody and his brother. You would think that about the third guy would get a clue. Couldn't ANY of those guys shoot? I see several passes that should have ended with the F6F in a crater.
The A20 film shows what happens when the attackers are so interested in getting a kill that they throw away all their advantages. It also shows that there was absolutely no cooperation between the attackers. I didn't film it, but I had a similar fight in an A20 a few weeks ago. Shot down a spit and a 109, then got shot down.
It seems to me that the best tactic used was to allow the other guy to make mistakes. Hmmm...
Have a nice day:)
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Originally posted by rshubert
It seems to me that the best tactic used was to allow the other guy to make mistakes. Hmmm...
ACM centers around capitalizing on the mistakes made by others. You finally "get" it when you realize that it was your own fault you were shot down whether the fight was 1v1 or 50v1; at some point you made a mistake that led to your death.
Surely a chess master such as yourself understands that the key to success means misleading and trapping your opponent into making fatal mistakes. If not, chess matches would always end in stalemates. By the same token, if nobody ever made mistakes in ACM, if every move was met with the perfect neutralizing countermove, every duel would result in a deathless stalemate.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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furballs in the MA are normally nothing to do with ACM, chess or whatever other grand comparisons you care to make, it's normally just gangbang the guy who's lowest forming a conga line shooting over each others shoulders while the other team tries to do the same. Chess? more like Snakes and ladders or a game of Kerplunk!
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Thank you for bringing it out to any who are conceptually challenged.
And the strat game is played the same way. Misdirection, bluff, move, countermove. Wait for them to commit to an action, then cut off their heads. Application of force in the appropriate place to achieve an intermediate or final goal. I really get off on it.
And oh by the way, lassie, the only difference in speed of action during a strat mission is that you have to be patient while travelling to the enemy base. At the sharp end, it gets pretty intense. Those with no SA get killed by the ack, by the defenders, or by the floor rushing up and smacking them in the face.
But go right ahead and do your own thing. Just don't try to change the way I have to do mine. It makes me feel like you are trying to manipulate my gameplay by changing the rules that you find inconvenient.
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Originally posted by Samiam
You guys can't really be claiming that there's any true strategic challenge to the base capture aspect of AH.
You can capture 20 bases, and make your side situation hopeless in result. You can get 5 fields out of 50 and log out knowing that your side is winning, despite the fact that it is still 45 bases to take.
Trick is to a) know what to take b) know when to take c) take it. It involves genaral planning, strategy and tactical consideration. MA is a wargame, question is only if you can or can't see it. AH is played by people and it adds another chaotic elemint, but the more people playing the game, the more predictable it is, because normally big systems tends to organize toward the possible middle of its states than toward the exremes.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
ACM centers around capitalizing on the mistakes made by others. You finally "get" it when you realize that it was your own fault you were shot down whether the fight was 1v1 or 50v1; at some point you made a mistake that led to your death.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Sure, in a systems which are 100% clear of random component it is true. But AH has some randomization in a form of lag, warps, and evil wifes :)
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In WB when I left finding a "fight" was pretty much history. You have to have numbers. 70 pilots primetime in a map the size of the Baltic doesn't make a fight. A decent place for the small fights. There are good small fights there. On a par with the CT here, just add green jello and mush.
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of prefered method of "play" by years flown in online sims. Strategests, furballers and do-it-alls.
Strategests while having a higher initial population have a higher dropoff rate as time goes by. The danger being that the strategest slowly becomes "realist". A realist from what I've seen has a short life cycle because nothing is quite real enough.
Slowly but surely nothing measures up. Fun becomes a rare event. A constant state of frustration because of icons, game strat, damage models, flight models, engine controls, strat control over a players actions...on and on. While discussing how many can dance on the head of a pin with FM charts, ballistic studies they forget how to have fun move on to another game "The Holy Grail" or find something else to do with there time.
There are no greybeard strategests, those that remain evolve into do-it-alls.
Everyone is a furballer when they first sign up online. "I'm gonna shoot someone" is why they came. In no time they learn that they get eatin alive on an online sim. High initial dropoff rate with a furballer. Getting your butt handed to you everytime you engage is rough. He either quits and goes back to fighting the box, takes up drawing and painting, or finds a way to NOT get whupped everytime he takes off. Big move of people to the strategy side of the game or to a Hunter squads to learn the craft of B&Z.
A year or two in, the time line becomes hazy. The strategests have either become frustrated realists and are off looking for the grail, exited the Main in favor of Scenarios, or become very proficient at there craft and are dabbling once again in the furball. The Hunters are proficient at hunting and either exit the Main in favor of Scenarios or the CT, or dabble on occasion in the fur.
Both on their return see it in a different way than they did initially. They may continue to dabble or might just make a profession of it.
In the end, when the beards are grey, most look at the fur differently then they did when they were n00bies. Might not be a full time profession, but the "essence" of it isn't lost to them.
Unless bitten by the dreaded "realist" bug. Revvin has the classic early signs of it. Unless AH2 does something for him I'm afraid his long term prognosis is bleak.
I would guess if you put the timeline out at over six years, the majority of those still flyin would be furballers and hunters. With a smaller proportion of do-at alls.
What do you think ??
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You guys sure like pidgeon holing. Nopoop you really should'nt make such generalisations if you don't know a person. If you had done your homework you'd see I've often argued against moves in the two online sims I've played against those who want 'realism' but only on their terms, silly things like wanting no icons when the graphics of the sims we play and the hardware we play them on are not up to displaying no icons. I was quite happy with the strat we had and the way it worked but slowly but surely that strat has been watered down, it's the few vocal whiners and their snide pissy little names for those that don't fly their way that will eventually burn me out, the way this community has deteriorated so that discussions turn into name calling and pidgeon holing of players showing a lack of tolerance and knowledge of how that player feels about the game.
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Originally posted by nopoop
In WB when I left finding a "fight" was pretty much history. You have to have numbers. 70 pilots primetime in a map the size of the Baltic doesn't make a fight.
Nopoop, you make one of my points for me. If I were to log to AH in the morning hours here, guess how many people I would find online? Probably about 70. It gradually creeps up to around 150 in the late afternoon. So we just don't have those furball numbers you guys have. Also, if you look at Viper's 2nd film in his furballing thread, you'll see that it's pretty much a vulchfest. There are so many people there that the list becomes scrollable. And the point of that is that Viper was never in any danger throughout that sortie. Here in Euroland, you might only get 4-5 guys engaged in a coordinated effort to capture a field, as happened in Viper's film, but you are much more likely to have 2-3 guys come in from another field with alt and create real danger. But with 25 of you gangbanging? Probably unlikely. What's causing those furballers in Viper's film to work together is the common aim of racking up kills. My analogy has always been the crowded train platform - the only common aim is to get a seat on the train. No-one gives a fig about anyone else on the train platform.
Revvin - ROFL!!!! Snakes & Ladders!!!! I creased up when I read that - LOLOLOLOL.... :D
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Originally posted by Revvin
I was quite happy with the strat we had and the way it worked but slowly but surely that strat has been watered down
Revvin are you talking strat in this game, or strat over there ??
Strat over there should be concerned with getting people through the door.
Been here a year and the only strat change I've seen is the implementing of "zone" strat in pizza and trinity. Is that the change your talking about ?? Is the implementing of zone strat watering down, or adding to the equation ??
Strat seems to work pretty well here from someone on the outside looking in strat wise. Whole lot of people seem to enjoy it. With the addition of a couple of tweeks involving fuel, CV groups and a redistribution of bases in trinity it would be even better. Or would that be a further watering down of the model ??
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Originally posted by beet1e
...But Furious, again I must ask the question. Please answer it this time: If you don't want to see non-DFers having impact on the game, and if you don't want to see the "chess match", then given that you and your ilk of DFers are so great in number, why don't you simply move to the DA? You would never have to deal with the chess match guys ever again.
First off, I do not believe you have ever asked me this question, therefore your implication that I am unwilling to answer is kinda BS.
Second. I don't really care what you do, as long as you have fun. Just as you shouldn't care what I do to have fun.
Where the problem lies is here; In a furball, I can spoil the fun of AH for only one person at a time. One guy in a suicide typhy can ruin the fun for a whole bunch of people at a time. The simplistic way in which fuel availability is modeled compounds this problem.
I have never gone into a furball with the idea of not surviving. Many strat folks are fully intent on dying. There is a problem with this. Personally, I would like to see a perk system for ordinance, as I believe this would encourage folks to survive or at least penalize them for suicide missions.
Lastly, I like to play in the MA. I like killing strat guys just as much as I like killing DF guys. HT is not dumb and realizes that some players need to be able to do the things they are capable of doing. In this case I am speaking of strat. If there was no strat, most folks would just circle their own field or quit.
If this were an RTS, i would by the idea that field capture was a "chess game". It's not. It's a simulator and blowing up simulated buildings can never hold a candle to blowing up simulated planes piloted by real people.
But, like I said, do whatever you have fun doing.
F.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Nopoop, you make one of my points for me. If I were to log to AH in the morning hours here, guess how many people I would find online? Probably about 70.
When you think about it, beating each other to a bloody pulp here on a weekly basis is kinda silly, though I thoroughly enjoy it.
There's 500 up when I log on..
We play different games...
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Originally posted by nopoop
Strat seems to work pretty well here from someone on the outside looking in strat wise.
You might want to try flying bombers for a while to understand.
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Originally posted by Grimm
I always like the Arena with an Arena concept.
The only problem is see with the arena within an arena concept is the whines that will start when theres a reset and the bases within this 'arena within an arena' are captured thereby ruining the whole purpose of it. I've always felt that there should be a seperate arena for those that want to purely furball, very much like the old Fightertown in AW. This way no one will intrude on their fun, which would happen in the MA.
For a while, some of the old AWers that came over in the Exodus tried in making the DA into that and for a couple of weeks succeeded but it soon died out because they couldn't spread the word out and attract new bodies. Maybe we'll see an arena like this when AH2 comes out sometime this fall. Maybe a bunch of the furball purists can get together with HT and ask him to make the dueling arena into one, even go as far as renaming the Dueling Arena to FighterTown or something like that. The name change alone would attract people wondering what it was and who knows, maybe the purists can convert them and convince them to stay.
Ack-Ack
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I take an A20 up now and then but drop the hangy things right after I suck the gear up..and I don't use it for what it is designed for..
Do you feel the addition of a more "realistic" bomb site mechanism added or detracted ?
Does the difficulty, or "time" needed to familierize oneself with bombing with current targeting system with success restrict the numbers of those that might enjoy bombers, possibly cutting down on the new blood ?
Would the addition of "otto" "buff tuff" and all the baggage that entails with those concessions add or detract from the current scheme of things ?
I'll agree the bombers are for the most part the forgotten stepchild in the sims I've played.
As a buffer, what's missing, taking of course into account we're talking about the Main arena.
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Your mask of sincerity slipped with the use of the word "concessions", as I said try flying bombers for a while and hit the strat targets and maybe you'll understand.
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Originally posted by nopoop
I would guess if you put the timeline out at over six years, the majority of those still flyin would be furballers and hunters. With a smaller proportion of do-at alls.
What do you think ??
I think you'd be more suprised at the outcome than you think and I'm sure the results won't be as you hoped they would. I think the majority of the 'vets' those with 6 years or more are the ones that you call 'do-it-alls', which for some reason you seem to look down on as well.
What I see going on is the clash between those guys that have been here since Beta and those that came later. Those that have been here since Beta seem to have more of the mano y mano mindset, while those that didn't start AH during the Beta seem to have a different view of things. Those that came to AH after the beta usually migrated from other games where there were two different styles of game play and their playing now reflects those. This inevitably led to a culture clash with the AH 'Elitists' who found their game to be evolving and a sense of impotency set in amongst them which led to the near panic we see now amongst them. It's sad because both camps actually compliment each other and feed each other in the MA food chain.
Maybe it's because I started out in AW and remember some epic fights for the N bases at the Big Pond or flying P-38 attack runs from C83 to VOD to tweak the nipples of the Az and Bzlanders or maybe it was those gut splitting laughter missions like raids to the Spitfire factory that started me on enjoying those mud moving sorties. The bottom line is it was fun.
Ack-Ack
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Hell Revvin I couldn't hit anything with the old system let alone the improved version.
Bombing doesn't float my boat.
I'm not masking anything, I was curious as to what you thought. My only thought is otto tends to be a can of worms as you well know.
Just as I'm not one to spend 40 minutes in a bomber to get up to altitude, I'm not gonna do it a fighter to shoot one down either.
No hidden agendas, just wanted an opinion from a bomber pilot.
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Furious. Thanks for your post. Hope you don't mind the fact that I've added a quote of yours to my sig. It is a good one.
But why do you need to kill strat guys in the MA? With all the special skills I'm hearing about that only the furballers possess, and given that strat guys don't DF because they can't (according to you), then I would have thought that the DA, dedicated to furballing, would be more of a challenge for you, and a better theatre for you in which to deploy your superior skills.
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Originally posted by nopoop
I take an A20 up now and then but drop the hangy things right after I suck the gear up..and I don't use it for what it is designed for..
too bad. It's really fun to fight your way to the target with a fully loaded A-20 and then destroy the town and dogfight in it. IMO, you're just limiting yourself to a myriad of options.
Do you feel the addition of a more "realistic" bomb site mechanism added or detracted ?
Never fly level bombers myself, except the time I upped a Lancaster (before the 3 ship formation) and had M0RAY in the chin turret and flew the Lancaster around like a turn fighter. I prefer the attack planes like the A-20 and Ju-87D-3. It's a blast landing a multi-mission kill in an A-20 or Stuka.
Does the difficulty, or "time" needed to familierize oneself with bombing with current targeting system with success restrict the numbers of those that might enjoy bombers, possibly cutting down on the new blood ?
Would the addition of "otto" "buff tuff" and all the baggage that entails with those concessions add or detract from the current scheme of things ?
IMO, at first the new bombsight is pretty daunting to the new players and old ones alike (I can't calibrate it so I don't even bother) but there are many tutorials put out by other players that the learning curve is much less steep now that it was in the past.
As for 'otto' gunners, I thought they pretty much sucked in WB, at least when I was attacking a bomber but when I'd fly a Me110 low over an enemy field, it was a blast to turn on otto and buzz the field vulching planes as they took off. But I like the self-gun system they had in AW and here in AH a lot better.
Ack-Ack
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I think your correct on the Beta argument Ackack. The old guard as you say seem to be more mano y mano.
I'm a year in here, but I new, or new of, quite a few of the beta team guys from they're days from WB. I can only comment on what I see. One sided of course because I'm from another game. Taken the low attendence of the game I came from, seeing everyone pull the plug and leave, coming here and seeing a whole lot of people I new way back when, the majority being fighters..
Can't comment on AW. Have no knowlege other than a pretty good stable of players arrived here.
Out of those that I flew with in the arenas going back to 98, the ones that still enjoy the flightsim thing tend to be of the mano y mano variety.
That's from my view.
That's why I asked the question "What do you think "
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I started out in AW and remember some epic fights ...
Epic fights are good. Actually epic fights are GREAT!!! IMO the problem with AH MA strat is that it tends to eliminate epic fights rather than foster them.
All too often, base attacks result in porked fuel and destroyed hangers. After which it is not unusual to see 40 guys circling a disabled base for 30 minutes, after which it may or may not change hands.
I'd much rather see bases change hands more easily than they do now. Supose the maps were exactly half the size they are now with the same number of bases, except those bases were much easier to capture. The likely result is lots of fast moving offensives with bases rapidly being captured and recaptured. More base captures for the strat guys, more furballs for the furball guys. In short, a lot more epic battles and everybody gets to do more of what they like.
Hooligan
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Did somebody really compare AH PA (Pork Arena) strat to Chess? It ain't Chess. It ain't even Checkers. It's somewhere between Tic-Tac-Toe and Bingo.
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I think the longer ranges are to try to get the fighters and bombers to higher altitude rather than always T&B scraping off the deck. The pizza map was just a bit too large with too many bases. The tactical geographic aspects were sort of lost because of this (too many bases). Geography was different with lotsa of changes but sometimes felt like I was flying on mars. Less bases to amplify each bases strategic importance thus engraining its attack approach and route in the geography also resizing it a bit for game play. Otherwise pizza had lotsa potential.
I get my enjoyment 50% flying around or to or from each target area and 50% from the actual fights I encounter. 50% beauty, 50% death.
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The time factor is something I haven't thought about much, but is a factor.
A more fluid or quicker moving front with bases a bit closer would be of benifit to those not spending 90 plus hours a month playing. With a small window of "playing" time at a any givin time, results from a strategic point of view would actually happen in a time frame alotted, for a hour or so a day player. He would see results.
A easier moving front would also be of benifit to those that play in off primetime times. A small number of players ( compared to primetime ) would see a result for their time online from the strategic point of view.
Tweak the fuel and dar a bit, throw in a few more CV groups...harden up the FH's a tad..
The "steamroller" wouldn't be needed. If it is used, a relatively small group can spoil the effect. You take your 70 guys and rollover bases. We'll just pluck them off one at a time on your flank..A small group wouldn't be impotant in primetime.
Grab a few guys and take some bases..
It would promote more individual confrontation in lieu of the gangbang.
Because in the end, it's not the furballers being a problem, nor is it the strat guys being a problem, the gangbang is the problem. Making adjustments in strat that make the gangbang unnecessary is the solution.
Would that be better or worse for the "full time" player ??
Or a benifit for all players ?
Is it a bastardation of strat ??
Or is it more choices by modifiing the strat ??
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Originally posted by Revvin
furballs in the MA are normally nothing to do with ACM, chess or whatever other grand comparisons you care to make, it's normally just gangbang the guy who's lowest forming a conga line shooting over each others shoulders while the other team tries to do the same. Chess? more like Snakes and ladders or a game of Kerplunk!
What you describe isn't furballing, it's gangbanging. Given your confusion between the two, I can understand why you display such misguided contempt.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Fariz
Sure, in a systems which are 100% clear of random component it is true. But AH has some randomization in a form of lag, warps, and evil wifes :)
Well, I've never blamed dying on lag or warps either in Air Warrior or in Aces High. The evil wife thing on the other hand...
Though I defer to nopoop's expertise on this one. How're those kneecaps recovering, nopoop?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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All this BK Fur and ball talk is exciting.
They dodge, and snap shot, and look around in excorsist view, and go full throttle and junk all the while. Big simmers these guys. And their cars go Whooooo! Woooooo! (http://www.tarddance.com) too.
Laz, go against a La7 in a 109E... man I just shiver. Spooky, spooky, mean. {clenching a fist}
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Believe it or not Levi the kneecaps are doing fine. My lady and I have come to the agreement to work on specific body quadrants each tour. Got to keep her happy.
This month we're working over the feet. Can't walk now but the knees ?? Not a problem. Next tour we're back to the upper body and I'm alittle hesitant about that. Thinking of trying the hangy things on A20's as Ack-ack suggested. But the upper body is always a tough tour..
BTW Rshubert, Creamo has interjected a worthy addition to your vocabulary arsenal being you've joined the boards, in his "special" Creamo way.
The word "tard" is accepted here as an exclamation of dweebery. You'd be surprised at how many tards we have here. WHY I HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING A TARD RIGHT ON THIS VERY BOARD !!!
I was shocked and hurt. But its a little hurt in the big picture. You haven't met my wife.
Add it to your vocabulary and use it with gusto when the need arises.
_______________________
nopoop
The Blue Knights
pssst !! Rshubert, if you have noticed no one talks to Creamo. That's a good thing to do. He's....ah....different if you know what I mean..
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Tweak the fuel and dar a bit, throw in a few more CV groups...harden up the FH's a tad..
I still don't understand the needs of the furballer to keep changing strat in the MA. You're now calling for FH "hardness" to be increased a tad. What is a tad? How hard were FHs in WW2, and how many tads is that? What effect do you want to see?
The furballers have no interest in strat, and yet here is yet another example of the non-strat guys calling for alterations - to strat. Why why why why why............. do you guys not simply up sticks and move to the DA? Think of the advantages... - The DA would be stuffed with like minded guys, with superior flying skills.
- Your arena would be unsullied by us strat turkeys.
- Whenever you began an engagement, you would know it would be against a fellow dedicated furballer, and would therefore be more of a challenge and hence more interesting than the mundane task of killing a strat turkey.
- You could take advantage of fields close together, and the engagements would be on equal terms.
- Air starts could be made available, to save you wasting precious time in that climb to 5K.
- You would be free from the suicide fuel porker, and would be able to take of with as much fuel as you need at any time. The pork and auger guys would be no threat to your fun.
- The strat turkey guys would be happier. No longer would their missuns be affected by all those superskilled furball cherrypickers.
- HTC would be a lot happier. No longer would they have to field whines about maps and map rotation. No longer would there be calls to move fields closer together, harden FHs, address the suicide fuel porker problem.
- Buffs would not be there to ruin your fun.
- There would be no calls to perk bombs of 100lb or more on jabo planes.
That's what - 10 good reasons to move to the DA, and everyone wins! You win - your furball engagements will be more interesting against guys with superior skills. The strat turkeys win - their missions have more chance of success. HTC wins - no more strat whines! That's not just a win-win situation, it's win-win-win!
So what's stopping you guys? The DA is just a mouse click away. Staying in the MA is like going to that English tea room and complaining about the coffee, when there's a Starbucks just around the corner.
It does not make sense.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Would that be better or worse for the "full time" player ??
Or a benifit for all players ?
Is it a bastardation of strat ??
Or is it more choices by modifiing the strat ??
Or ask yourself why does it seem that new players gravitate towards ground attack and bombing missions instead of dogfighting? Is it because the learning curve is not as steep as it would be if they were to just start off dogfighting from day one? Would changing the strat system help matters? Would making bases closer together or adding more of them help matters? Or how about having a formal training program like the ones from AW or WB help matters? If a new player had the option of entering a well organized training program and was taught ACM, wouldn't that give the new player the confidence he needs to seek out such fights? You'll still get those that do nothing but ground attack missions but you'll also get those that would have maybe gone the attack route because the easier learning curve but now that they've been taught ACM and other fighter tactics that dogfighting won't seem so daunting to them.
Ack-Ack
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Ok grim... allmost allways. statisticly... never.
hubert.. after you have done this a few months you might get the point of those films. maybe not.. if you don't then..
well.. you need to attack both low and slow drex and leviathn... you can have all the advantages... you can do it 30 times and have your best buddy help you in your most organized way.. both those guys will hand you your bellybutton every single time. chances are... with your lack of experiance... you won't even know what or how it happened.
They do it consitently to guys, and teams of guys, that are the best flight sims have to offer...
beetle.. don't be obtuse..in other words... don't be beetle.. I don't want to go to the da... I want a place in the MA. If HTC thinks my ideas suck then they will ignore them.. if they think that yours suck they will ignore you.
lazs
Public Relatations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by beet1e
ROFL!
You say you want to make sure that there will always be a place for you furballers to play your way. And there is! It's called the DA.
So why don't you all just go there?
Beet1e...the DA by definition is the "Dueling" arena. Generally there are 1 vs 1 fights, maybe some 2 vs 2...and occassionally a semi-organised free-for-all involving 5 or more on each team.
In no way is it an FA (Furball Arena).
For a real furball to occur you need the MA atmosphere.
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle.. don't be obtuse..in other words... don't be beetle.. I don't want to go to the da... I want a place in the MA. If HTC thinks my ideas suck then they will ignore them.. if they think that yours suck they will ignore you.
Yeah, right. Didn't think you could come up with a decent answer not to go to the DA. Even Toad admits he has been happier flying the DA lately.
But Lazs, lets look at your idea to have the MA partitioned by a 50,000' wall or mountain range. No planes could ever get from one side to the other. What would be the difference between that, and having two separate arenas?
Still waiting for the furballers to come up with a halfway decent reason not to go to the DA. The best one I've heard so far is "I don't want to go to the da... I want a place in the MA.". - not particularly convincing.
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Beet1e there are times, somewhat frequent that you read and don't comprehend. Your latest DA tape loop has been answered many times yet you fail to grasp it.
You also seem to think I'm advocating a total revamp of the strat model. I'm not. Call it tweaking or nudging
You haven't answered any questions I put forth in the "tad" post. Would any of those "proposed nudges" in strat be of benifit to you or not ? If so why ? If not why ?? Discuss. Your ranting. Take a breath.
In answer to your question on FH's. See I read, and reply..
I have no idea what a tad is, one more bomb ?? Experiment. If we're working towards a more fluid front a "tad" harder FH's might be the ticket. I see one thing happen over and over as bases are taken that makes absolutely no sense to me. A group is on the move spearheading off into injun territory. The first thing they do is kill the FH's. Now if your really trying for a "push" in a strategic way why on earth would you kill the FH's ?? You take the base and it's worthless. You can't fly from it. You've stopped your own offensive all by yourself without the enemy doing a thing.
Ack-ack mades a very valid point that there is no formal training here. New guys are thrown to the wolves and I agree. A formalized training program ala' WB would be a good thing. I spent my time there, not alot, but I learned quite a bit in the few times I attended. Any nudges in strat I would think would have little impact on the new guy. If he wants confrontation there's a place, if he wants to hit a base behind the lines to practice his craft they'll still be there.
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Originally posted by TW9
Not as many low, unsuspecting, and inexperienced pilots in da compared to ma? or maybe because ma has a bigger crowd that will see "playerx landed 12 kills"?
Those who advocate dogfighting...are afraid too? Never ran into the BK's or the 13th or the FDB's or have you?
That sound you hear is a logical thought flying over your head.
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Originally posted by TW9
i'll admit that the fact that 1 jabo can completely disable a field isnt right
Don't have a problem with a jabo coming in and disabling a field, gotta be good to take out the ack, hit the VH and prep it for taking. One or two jabo taking out the fuel is a different story.
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BS Poopie! Pull the other one - I have a spare. The DA issue has never been answered, so don't try to make it sound as if it has by accusing me of repeating the tape loop. If I have asked the question more than once it's because I have not had a satisfactory answer.
I don't like your "experimental" changes at all. I smell permanent changes by stealth. Why would you want to alter the strength of the FHs as they stand now? The help application tells you exactly what ord is required to destroy them, and if a team of guys comes armed for the task, they deserve to achieve it IMO. Happened to a Bish field just last week - and I take my hat off to the guys that did it. But oh! -cry the furballers. That ruins our fun! Well of course it does, just as every time you shoot someone down you ruin their fun. You want to boost your fun by depriving someone else of their fun. Just remember - they pay their $14.95 too. If the fuel porkers/FH bashers are succeeding in getting through to your field, then it goes to show what a piss poor job is being done to protect it. You could man the FGs. You could mount a defensive sortie to protect your field against attack. You could organise some Ostwinds to protect the fuel if an attack is suspected. But no. The furballers' way has always been to whine to HTC instead. :rolleyes: A group is on the move spearheading off into injun territory. The first thing they do is kill the FH's. Now if your really trying for a "push" in a strategic way why on earth would you kill the FH's ?? You take the base and it's worthless. You can't fly from it. You've stopped your own offensive all by yourself without the enemy doing a thing.
The point of hitting the FHs is to stop the enemy from launching. When the base is captured, the acks come back, meaning that the FGs can be manned to defend the base. Some aerial cap might also be needed. And after a while (15 mins?) the FHs come back up. The point of crippling the base? To stop you from having it of course! Sometimes it IS the obvious answer.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Why not go to the DA ?? That's simple, there is only one enemy in there.. The gentlemen that hang in there are very good at what they do and they enjoy it. With the exception of the 2 on 2 I haven't been in there. That's where I learned that Curly and Nimitz are bastages..
Originally posted by Curval
Beet1e...the DA by definition is the "Dueling" arena. Generally there are 1 vs 1 fights, maybe some 2 vs 2...and occassionally a semi-organised free-for-all involving 5 or more on each team. For a real furball to occur you need the MA atmosphere.
[Originally posted by Furious
Lastly, I like to play in the MA. I like killing strat guys just as much as I like killing DF guys. HT is not dumb and realizes that some players need to be able to do the things they are capable of doing.
Answers look pretty straight foreward and understandable to me. That's just from this thread. You used Furious' quote in your sig when it was a portion of his answer to your DA question.
While addressing one question I had, I guess it's to much to ask to discuss the rest. That damn tape loop keeps getting in the way.
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Nopoop, still not good enough. For you to be advocating changes to strat - FH "hardness" etc. - it follows that there must be sufficient likeminded individuals who would like to see your changes, and for the same reasons. When I asked why you don't go to the DA, I meant all you furballers - en masse. After all, if you are sufficient in number to vote for an arena change, you should find a plentitude of furballers in the DA.
Curval's answer is merely describing the status quo before the furballers migrate to the DA, and is therefore not applicable. Once the migration takes place, it won't be 1-on-1 any more, although there could be an area reserved for 1-on-1 fights.
And as I have already said, Furious's answer is lame, and I addressed it in that 10-point list of reasons for the furballers to migrate to the DA.
Try again.
Still waiting for that elusive answer to the question: Why don't the furballers migrate en masse to the DA?
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because the DA map is not really suitable for it and there'd always be some tarded spoiler porking bases.
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I understand now, an answer isn't really an answer unless it's the one you want to hear.
So let me get this straight. Your now promoting that a good portion of the census in the Main arena to leave ???
Am I correct in this ?
I would say that's alittle over the top, wouldn't you ??
Looking at it subjectively, I'd say hardening up the fuel a bit is less traumatic to the big picture than asking a portion of the Mains pilots to start another arena...
But hey, what do I know, I can't even give you the answer you want to hear. You tell me the answer and I'll write it down so I don't forget the next time you ask.
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Originally posted by beet1e
BS Poopie! Pull the other one - I have a spare. The DA issue has never been answered, so don't try to make it sound as if it has by accusing me of repeating the tape loop.
Here's one answer. We had a furball arena in AW, called Fightertown and was quite popular and successful and a lot of the players that used to fly in there were amongst the refugees. This group felt like the furballers on this thread, they even had the same arguements. So these ex-Fightertown refugees decided to go to the DA and turn it into AH's version of Fightertown and every Wednesday for a few weeks you would find anywhere from 15-30 people (99.9% of them being all ex-AWers though). Then all of a sudden it just stopped. Most of the guys that would go to the DA every Wednesday just lost interest because of the dynamics of the arena I guess and the lack of interest from regular AH players.
Personally, I'm all for turning the DA into a Fightertown like arena. Change the map, put in a very limited Strat system (able to destroy VH's and radar) and make things like fuel tough enough that bombing them would be a waste of time. Add a few CVs for some intense CV battles and maybe a section for the GVs to duke it out as well and I'm sure that you'll satisfy a lot of people's desires and hopefully create a popular arena as well.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by nopoop
I understand now, an answer isn't really an answer unless it's the one you want to hear.
No. An answer isn't an answer unless it answers the question which prompted that answer. If I asked you what the weather is like in CA today, and you answered "6:30pm", I would not consider that to be an answer! And Poop! you're asking me questions which I have pre-empted in my 10-point list somewhere up there. YOU would be happier for all the reasons listed. All of you, if you're sincere about your furball prowess. So what's the REAL reason you don't want to go to the DA? Couldn't be that there'd be no jabo/strat turkeys to beat up? Surely those are easy targets, and furballers are skilled enough not to need to bother with them.
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Don't like splitting the Main crowd into arenas. WB is an example of what happens with multiple arenas amongst a long line of other things..
The Main is the main. It's the "fun" arena for lack of a better word. The Main here is the best I've seen. It IS fun. By bringing up points for discussion in no way changes that fact. The numbers themselves tell the tale.
Small nudges are being done to trinity that may be of benifit. Time will tell.
Would I be in favor of a few more nudges in certain aspects, you bet.
Regardless, I'm all for numbers. Being that AH is also, I really don't think I have much to worry over.
They don't shoot themselves in the foot.
They might even address Beet1e's dreaded sound cheat..then do away with La7's, AND THEN NIKKI'S !!
AND THEN ALL THE FURBALLERS !!
But then again, maybe not..
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Originally posted by nopoop
Don't like splitting the Main crowd into arenas. WB is an example of what happens with multiple arenas amongst a long line of other things..
The Main is the main. It's the "fun" arena for lack of a better word. The Main here is the best I've seen. It IS fun. By bringing up points for discussion in no way changes that fact. The numbers themselves tell the tale.
Small nudges are being done to trinity that may be of benifit. Time will tell.
Would I be in favor of a few more nudges in certain aspects, you bet.
Regardless, I'm all for numbers. Being that AH is also, I really don't think I have much to worry over.
They don't shoot themselves in the foot.
They might even address Beet1e's dreaded sound cheat..then do away with La7's, AND THEN NIKKI'S !!
AND THEN ALL THE FURBALLERS !!
But then again, maybe not..
ROFL! Thing is Poopie, you have to let the other guys have their fun too. It's give and take. I was impressed with the 110 squad that visited themselves upon my base, and wiped out all FH in a single pass. They planned it, their aim was good, and they deserved to succeed. I had only just taken off and had plenty of fuel and killed a couple of those 110, and then had to defend the field. All the would-be fighters jumped in GVs and there was plenty of cover.
See the difference? As a furballer, you have fun getting lots of kills. Hey, I get quite a few too. So WE are having fun. So we have no right to complain when an organised squad porks the base. They are having their fun. And hey, they can be stopped! Get in a fighter and provide cover before they hit their targets.
But all this "harden this" and "fix that"... sounds like someone who can't win/succeed with the game as it stands. Increase FH "hardness"? I think what you're really after is to stop the sort of raid I described above. And I don't think that would be fair, despite the fact that I was on the side that got its base porked. Kind of reminds me of pool hustlers who try to change the rules half way through a game.
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The MA will always be the half-way house between the CT and DA, a little less realistic than the CT which uses an Axis vs Allies setup and maps resembling the real world while the DA is devoid of strat.
Much has been said (mainly the same vocal minority) about how the furballer (seems pidgeon holing is the way to go here) is the more tolerant type of player, they are the ones who supposedley 'get it' are not as slow witted (or any ammount of other snide comment they care to pass) as the rest of us and therefore are happier and stay in the sim longer so they are the ones that should be catered for because us slow witted types will up and leave.
In reality the reverse is true where the number of whines by these players about strat and how it ruins their fun is far greater than those made by players who have a more rounded experience of Aces High and will try their hand at most things like bombing, jabo and dogfighting. You just don't see the threads started from these players asking for more ways to ruin someone's fun or to allow their steamroller a little more steam or allow them more 'pork' power. The general population of AH will also post their suggestions in the gameplay forums while the vocal few will squeak and moan in the general forum like they are starved of attention.
The thing is they just don't 'get it' when it comes to the arena choice open to them or is there another reason? all the grand comparisons to chess and the like and talk of ACM really is'nt what furballs in the MA are all about. It's gangbang the lowest guy, perhaps cherry pick or circle jerk till you die. If it was all about ACM they'd be in the DA but then that would take ACM to fight and perhaps they are too timid to fight without numbers around them so ACM does'nt matter. If they went to the DA then there would'nt be 1 vs 1 there would be those grand furball's they talk of and all the fancy claptrap they care to use to package it all up to sound oh so grand but in reality it would be a small number there, the same kind of numbers that populate the CT because the general census in the arena could'nt really care they will go on doing the odd bomber sortie, mixed with a jabo run and then onto some dogfighting in one seamless online experience.
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Originally posted by beet1e
...So what's the REAL reason you don't want to go to the DA? ...
Real reason. Because in the MA you get to ruin a strat guys fun.
Not all fun dogfights occur in furballs. Last night, 201Solo and I foiled a MAW squad base grab by ourselves. 20 or so minutes of very intense fighting. Lotta fun.
Only changes to the MA I have advocated are:
1. Change the influence the HQ has over dar.
2. Rework fuel availability.
3. Penalize suididal tendency jabos.
4. On larger maps provide a FT similar to the TT.
Nothing world shattering there. I would think these things would work in everyones favour. Except maybe #4, the napoleans would hate that one.
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Ahh the end of vacation, good boards, got some website work done, edited some photos. Back to cracking the nut..
Furious put it best.
1. Change the influence the HQ has over dar.
2. Rework fuel availability.
3. Penalize suididal tendency jabos.
Can't comment on #4 because I'm abreviation challenged. None of it is a big thing, wouldn't ruin anyones fun, would provide more fun in the long run. There's something about logging on finding the fuel porked with no radar that makes "Seinfeld" more paletable.
But that's just me.
My logic meter has run out..
I'm spent..
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Originally posted by nopoop
Can't comment on #4 because I'm abreviation challenged.
Fighter Town similar to Tank Town.
i.e., Lazs holy grail of an arena within an arena, albeit maybe not as pure as lazs would it it (early war stuff only).
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Originally posted by Revvin
The thing is they just don't 'get it' when it comes to the arena choice open to them or is there another reason? all the grand comparisons to chess and the like and talk of ACM really is'nt what furballs in the MA are all about. It's gangbang the lowest guy, perhaps cherry pick or circle jerk till you die. If it was all about ACM they'd be in the DA but then that would take ACM to fight and perhaps they are too timid to fight without numbers around them so ACM does'nt matter.
[/B]
Again you confuse gangbanging with furballing. A true furball doesn't involve everyone piling on the lowest guy, and any of the "vets" you belittle would hate to see such a scenario. It sucks to outnumber someone 20 to 1 as much as being outnumbered by the same margin. Maybe you don't die as much, but it's boring as hell.
Furballing requires many skills. Skillful ACM certainly helps, as do situational awareness and effective wingman tactics. That's not to say that jaboing or bombing or whatever floats your boat don't take skill and dedication; I'm sure they do. However, you're creating this utterly false image of furballing and furballers that suits your own argument without regard to the truth. Honestly, it's as if you've tried it a few times, got gangbanged, and now go all sourpuss about the whole thing.
Why don't furballers just go to the DA? For the same reason that bombers and tankers don't go there -- people enjoy hanging out in the main arena, shooting the breeze with friends (many of whom might drive tanks, bombers, or whatever and wouldn't go to the DA), seeing their names in the lights, earning a reputation among the largest segment of the community, and going someplace where stats "matter." Furballers going to the DA represents a classic collective action problem, not some sort of cowardice. I'm amazed that you and beet1e perpetuate such a silly argument.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I play a little of every role in AH. Last night's squad night for instance my first sortie was in a bomber, then I jabo'd a field and then proceeded to dogfight once my ord was gone and all with a little field porkage and vulching mixed in! :D Furballs in the MA is just cherry picking or circle jerking apart from maybe the odd time you might come across a 2 vs 2 battle etc when ACM matters.
Why should the general census of players who don't complain about furballers and don't complain against strat move to the DA? it's you guys moaning myself and Beet1e merely pointed out the DA would be more to your liking or is it like to much hard work to click on another arena and not get the attention you crave? The MA will always be the halfway house of AH, stuck between the DA and CT and while the firballers remind those who want a little more realism in AH should go to the CT then so should those furballers take their own advice and go to an arena that suits their needs...the DA.
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Originally posted by Furious
Real reason. Because in the MA you get to ruin a strat guys fun.
Furious - thank you. I appreciate your honesty. You're the only one who had the balls to admit it, and I will stop asking the question now. Nopoop, would you like to write down the answer given by furious, just in case someone else asks you why you don't want to go to the DA? Everyone: Do you now see why the furballers have been so reluctant to give an honest answer?
DMF - It sucks to outnumber someone 20 to 1 as much as being outnumbered by the same margin. Maybe you don't die as much, but it's boring as hell.
I agree with that, and even posted a thread about it. I never join "missuns" because I don't like the steamroller element, and because they almost always involve TYPH or LA7. Other than that, I don't think furballing is the black art you furballers seem to think it is, and I agree with Revvin. The "furballing" films I have seen have been nothing more than numerical supremacy vulchfests in which the vulchers were in no danger at all.
I don't want to see Nopoop's "experimentation/nudges". All through these discussions, the fingerbobs like Lazs and Nopoop have been advocating subtle changes to make the life of the jabo and buffer more difficult, and the life of Mr. Furball more easy. The justification for increasing hangar "hardness" or bomb "softness" or for perking bombs weighing 100lb or more (ie most bombs) is that the effect of a suicide pork n auger dweeb can have is currently disproportionate to his level of skill, and that it's "ruining the fun" for a lot of other people. What the hell do you think happens when the furball crowd sit on top of an airfield so that the enemy cannot take off? And don't give me that gangbang v furball crap.
I could say that HTC should increase bullet "softness". After all, there are a lot of no-skill dweebs who do nothing more than vulch, vulch, vulch. Where's the skill in that? And they ruin a lot of guys' fun by preventing them from taking off in much the same way as a fuel porker ruins your fun by limiting you to 25% fuel. But oh! Imagine the outcry if bullet "hardness" were to be reduced for any round more lethal than a .303. No, we wouldn't want that kind of experimentation/nudge now, would we? :rolleyes:
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Why should furballers go anywhere? It appears that HTC is making a place for the building battlers to "go". The best reason for not going to the DA is that there is no numbers there. I like numbers... You don't get it because you play the ai portion of the game. I am interested in the human factor.
As for an arena within an arena and how it is different from two seperate arenas... You that dense? Try going back and forth between the CT and the MA if you want an easy lesson in what is "different" try to communicate between the two and track what is happening in both arenas so that you can take off from the field (in either arena) that best suits what you want to do... try to communicate with people in both arenas at the same time.
And... how will we ever get early war planes to be useful without the "area arena" idea... you yourself have admitted (over and over) that your pet (and unimaginative) idea, RPS, won't work.
nope.. we need to get back to basics... maybe not everyone but.. enough want to have a good time. My ideas all simply advocate a place to do it in the MA. At the same time... I don't take any choice away from the attention starved building battlers.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
The best reason for not going to the DA is that there is no numbers there. I like numbers... You don't get it because you play the ai portion of the game. I am interested in the human factor.
Durrrrh... if the furballers migrated there, then there WOULD be numbers. You don't get it because you don't listen.
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Like all forms of game play, the current MA promotes more furballing than any “DA” could ever provide. It does it mostly by a strat model that has people bent on capturing the map, and like tonight they came in droves to try and close out the Rooks. I ran through more G10 ammo than the entire German front lines in late 1944, never getting past 10K. Pry got more kills in 1 night than in the last 2 months too.
Any argument to that fact is just a statement in how you like to play a stupid game, and why you think your gameplay is better or gasp “more manly” than the next guy that chooses one of the several MA gameplay roles.
If you want to do level bombing at ALT and learn the new bomber strat, that’s as cool as taking a squad of P51’s to Alt and working in 3’s and 4’s. If you want to furball, low alt at a disadvantage, go for it.
That’s the way it is.
Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful.
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and beetle and revvin... no matter what you say... you are battling buildings and you are having an effect on other peoples gameplay way out of proportion to the skill you need to do it.. sooooo....
You have to justify by talking about how much "thinking" it takes to suicide some buildings or appreciate the vast, complex AH "strat" system... all to negate the actual strat which is... the team with the most numbers "wins"...
Beetle hates the suicide jabo guys and the "missuns" that are gamey and ruin gameplay but.... him, and all the building battlers are hiding a dirty little secret...
they NEED these idiots... they may say that they find em offensive but they need em... the "strat" pivots on such gameyness... while they are running around with some self impossed tittle of "chess master of the sky" and "thinking realist" they are really dependent on the worst players that AH has to offer... they love it when the war is "advanced" by the sacrafice of the worst players in the game... they then take credit for any gains they themselves make when...
It is in fact the dweebiest and lowest skilled in the game that are doing the heavy lifting so far as AH "strat" goes... so far as "winning" the war...
The team with the most gangbangers and suicide building battlers wins the "war".
lets work a little to make these guys have a little less effect on the gameplay of so many.
oh... and I would venture to say that in a good furball I am usually one of the lowest alt guys in the fight most of the time.. alt means nothing in a large fur.
as for all the furballers going to the da and then it would have numbers? Ok... when they all go there and it has the numbers I will go... till then I am not into martydom... You should be using that line of thought on your fellow "strat" buddies... the suicide jabo guys. They will eat a bug if it might get em some attention.
creamo... the best fights are between fields... closer fields that are captured easier (as oppossed to simply lying useless) are the best. we have gotten away from that... I think we may be getting back to it tho with some of the changes in infinity.
lazs
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Laz, we know you only fight under 500 feet. And the eye patch must be a hindrance, but damn if it don't match the leather knee high boots.
Thing is, the harder they porked the rooks tonight, the more bases they captured, the more I furballed.
Even still, your not arguing gameplay, your stating what you like to do in the game. And if you can't find a furball, you need to switch teams, or tell HTC just exactly when you can't find a fight and why. The overall strat isn't the problem. I always find a fight.
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creamo... I am not saying that you can't find a fight anytime you want to... all I am saying is that your idea of "finding a fight" is different than mine. Way different...
I don't consider less than 1 kill per sortie or a little more than 3 kills an hour "finding a fight anytime I like". I wish I knew your secret for filling in the boring time in between...
I have tried doing the laundry and dishes between fights but that somehow doesn't seem good enough.
lazs
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I see, so assuming you are not pouring your free time on my stats, or less embarrassing, you just assume I fly a Dora to alt most of the time, which I do, HTC should consider your adamant stance on gameplay. Which is? Take off, turn, kill, kill, turn, kill?
That’s a hard sell for the AH community, (I assume) to change all what HTC has created, when I just stated the panacea you want, was nothing less than what I experienced all of last night. A direct result of the current MA strat.
Dude, god bless ya, I really don’t care, was intrigued by the argument to repond, and I know you have posted about this a thousand times. Go get em. I just don’t get it.
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hehe, Creamo! Last time I saw you, you were flying a N1K. But that's OK. Nice posts - I might have to add you to my buddy list!
Lazs - I don't suicide buildings. Be very careful what you say about buffs/fluffs, what with the Con coming up and all. Remember what happened last time. I'd hate to think of you sobbing your heart out in that hotel room, while Hooligan's trying to get some sleep.
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The more you guys post the more my point is proved, its the furballers who complain because they just don't 'get it' that the MA is the halfway house between the CT and DA. The only people trying to stop others having fun are the furballers by limiting the way the virtual war in the arena is waged. Strat did'nt just happen by accident in the MA HTC put it there by design that has to tell you something..but no you just don't 'get it' The reason they don't want to go to the DA is of course numbers because the number of furballers really is'nt that high at all. Of course you're going to get fights in the MA but most of those guys like me are just having fun doing a bit of bombing, a bit of jabo and then some fighting they don't all circle jerk and cherry pick all the time. The furballers don't want to go to the DA because you won't get the attention they so sorely crave. As for crying? geez I did'nt realise Lazs was so fragile, perhaps I need to take him off ignore and lavish some attention on him :)
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Originally posted by Revvin
The more you guys post the more my point is pro....
Dang Revvin. I aint gonna reread the entire thread, but from what I do remember that is like the 4th time you have posted the same exact thing.
Copy and paste. Save yourself some time.
Creamo's a tard. A big huggable tard. He made a good point and it's one I often forget.
It's just a stupid video game.
Have fun.
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creamo... if I'm wrong then it won't get changed... just tyhat simple. I'm simply advocating more choice... I don't believe everyone likes to climb to alt and not fight.
revvin and beetle.. didn't see either of you at the last con. Seen a lot of guys tho... talked to anyone who wanted to talk to me. I especially liked to talk to those who didn't agree with me. One or two didn't even change their mind.
revvin and beetle... nothing I have advocated would limit your choices in any way... They would limit the effect that you have on the game which is, byu any standards.... unbalaced. You wish to have a lot of effect for very little effort. Would you advocate an atomic bomb for anyone who wanted it? I believe that a lot of the strat ideas are still being worked out. I believe that some of them didn't work out as planned and will be modified. for instance....
despite your rivers of tears and frustration and bitterness... infinity will be made more player friendly.
lazs
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Just following your's and the rest of the fingerbob's by sounding like a broken record Furious ;)