Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on May 30, 2003, 10:38:17 AM
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We captured A39 from the CV, and were getting ready to capture V38. But against the orders of the CV captain, the ship gunners had porked 39 to such an extent that troops were not available. So I volunteered to up a goon for the long flight from A35 to V38. Just as I left A35 I noticed not one, but two knit goons - dropping troops on the town - which was fully up! No capture for them, so one of them comes chasing after me. LOL - a goon dogfight. I got the kill because he rammed me, destroying himself but knocking off a chunk of my wing. I didn't think that was possible. Over "there", only the guy doing the ramming suffered damage, and the rammed plane would be left unscathed.
If we can have game concessions like buff guns being turned off on the ground to discourage ackstarring, surely this deliberate ramming issue could be addressed.
Here is the film (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/c47dweeb.ahf). Only very, very short - didn't even need to .ZIP it. View from External position for best effect.
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If memory serves me correctly, V38 does not have a town, so maybe they were trying to drop multiple sets of troops hoping that any defending GV(s) might not be able to shoot them all and maybe 10 will sneak in.
Ramming ... is ramming ... is ramming ... its part of the game and it ain't going away.
Tell me, how would a programmer be able to distinguish, via raw data, whether one rammed another intentionally or by accident ?
geeeeeeeeeesh !!!
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Buff guns don't fire when the bomber is on the gound.
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Too bad beetle.
Looks like he did what he had to do to get you down. Sorry it ruined your long flight (not really. WTG P38Devil!)
h
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ahahahah! thats too funny! :D
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>>Buff guns don't fire when the bomber is on the gound.<<
What game are you playing Muckmaw? Buffs guns certainly do fire when on the ground at an airfield that has no FH up but, all BH are up.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
If memory serves me correctly, V38 does not have a town, so maybe they were trying to drop multiple sets of troops hoping that any defending GV(s) might not be able to shoot them all and maybe 10 will sneak in.
Ramming ... is ramming ... is ramming ... its part of the game and it ain't going away.
Tell me, how would a programmer be able to distinguish, via raw data, whether one rammed another intentionally or by accident ?
geeeeeeeeeesh !!!
Slap - I worded it badly. The knit goons I saw were at A35 not V38. I've changed the wording.
I don't know how WB distinguished which plane was the rammer and which was the rammee, but it did. Maybe it was something crude like the faster plane was deemed to be the rammer. But it always worked, AFAIK.
Horn! LOL - bastage! But you do have a point. I did see a WW2 Spit pilot of the BoB interviewed - Ray Holmes was his name. He saw a German bomber (Dornier?) which he believed to be heading for Buckingham palace. He was out of ammo, so he rammed it! He bailed out, but I think the German crew went down with their craft.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I did see a WW2 Spit pilot of the BoB interviewed - Ray Holmes was his name. He saw a German bomber (Dornier?) which he believed to be heading for Buckingham palace. He was out of ammo, so he rammed it! He bailed out, but I think the German crew went down with their craft.
Mucho cojones, that one.
h
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Originally posted by Don
>>Buff guns don't fire when the bomber is on the gound.<<
What game are you playing Muckmaw? Buffs guns certainly do fire when on the ground at an airfield that has no FH up but, all BH are up.
Wait, if ALL FHS are down and ALL BH are up, the buff guns will fire when on the ground?
Are you 100% sure of this? I've never tried it.
I know from experience that you cannot fire the buffs guns when on the ground, but I did not realize that if what you said above is true, they will fire.
To be honest, I would not launch from a base that has all FHs down, as that base is most likely under siege, and I would be an easy target getting my bombers up. I ususally launch from rear areas, as heavies were designed for.
If what you say is correct, and I do not doubt you, then yes, buff guns should be disabled on the ground, no matter the circumstances.
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Originally posted by Don
>>Buff guns don't fire when the bomber is on the gound.<<
What game are you playing Muckmaw? Buffs guns certainly do fire when on the ground at an airfield that has no FH up but, all BH are up.
Really? Last I saw they didn't.... you sure you are talking about AH? :)
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Im not sure on this one...
The Gunner Positions dont work on the ground .. Correct?
But the Forward Nose Gun, fired from the pilots seat, will fire before you leave the ground.. Correct??
I think it depends on which Guns your talking about.
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Ramming not a part of WW2 air combat?
Who being selectively realistic now?
Again, your flip-flops are about the best part of this board lately!
:D
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"I don't know how WB distinguished which plane was the rammer and which was the rammee, but it did. Maybe it was something crude like the faster plane was deemed to be the rammer. But it always worked, AFAIK."
... always worked ? I doubt that.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to interpret the intentions of the person in this situation. It maybe a "guesstimate", and if so, it would NOT always work.
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*Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!*
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Ramming in WB was dependant on what your FE saw. If your FE violated the HUGE collision bubble over there "you" collided. That wouldn't be seen on your opponents FE due to the "time" lag involved on the net. So ramming is impossible.
Everything involved with shooting, blowing up stuff, hitting another plane with your bullets was seen on your FE and sent to the other players FE through the game hub. I believe it works the same way here.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
It is IMPOSSIBLE to interpret the intentions of the person in this situation. It maybe a "guesstimate", and if so, it would NOT always work.
Slap - truth is, today was the first time I'd seen this firsthand. I have heard other people complaining of ramming, but hadn't seen what happened. So it is a rare occurrence, it would seem. In WB, they had a "collision bubble" - a big beef with many, and crappily modelled. If your wingtip went within about ten feet of an enemy plane, you died instantly. The other real headache in WB was having to get VERY close to fire, but then warping the last 200 yards and colliding - happened a lot. Nopoop's explanation makes it clear.
Mr. Toad! How nice to see you. I have missed you. :D But no, if ramming is a legitimate AH tactic, I shall do some ramming of my own!
I saw that ramming in Memphis Belle. Horrible scene as the rookies go down. :(:(
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Originally posted by Don
>>Buff guns don't fire when the bomber is on the gound.<<
What game are you playing Muckmaw? Buffs guns certainly do fire when on the ground at an airfield that has no FH up but, all BH are up.
Only bombers with nose mounted guns like the Boston and the A-20 can fire while on the ground. All other bombers have to have wheels off the ground in order to fire their gun turrets.
Ack-Ack
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That's what I thought.
THe forward guns fired from the cockpit will fire on the ground in any plane, including the A-20, B-26, etc.
No turret guns of any kind will fire until the wheels leave terra firma.
And it's a fair concessions, as much as I would have liked those guns on the few occasions where I was getting vulched on a take off...(Unexpected raid just as a mission rolls).
But you know, we'd have idiots DRIVING B-17's over to the town to shoot down a goon, when the FH's and VH are dead.
Once again, a game concession. Fair.
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Originally posted by TW9
if i have no ammo and i see a goon i'd ram em :D
Another tardling in training. :rolleyes:
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Collisions are determined on the FE. This makes it really hard to ram and damage another aircraft. In other words, the FE of the guy trying to ram will certainly see the collision and that plane will die. On the FE of the other player the planes might be 100 or 200 yards apart due to network lag. This is why most of the time only one aircraft is damaged in a "collision". In this particular case (i.e. goony vs. goony) the fact that both aircraft are really slow would make it much more likely that a ram would succed in hurting the target as well as the rammer. Still that doesn't seem likely and ramming is a tactic of desperation and extremely inneffective at best.
Hooligan
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Wow! I'm famous!
Well, here's what happened:
I was told base XX needed troops, so being the nice guy that I am, I head out in my goon, with a Chopin piano concerto in the cd player to help pass the time going 200 KIAS 15 feet above the water. I get to my target, and the town is not completely down! No one is in the area to finish it, and no one seems to be interested in that field anymore. So, I decide to practice dropping troops, seeing as no other field in the area is anywhere close to ready and I'm beginning to run out of gas. I drop the troops, a short while later, I see an enemy goon a bit offshore! Well, a enemy goon is not a welcome visitor anywhere! I have no ammo so I decide to try ramming. This is the first time I've visited the AH forums, and I've been rammed a few times myself in my short career, so I didn't realize it was looked down upon. I declared my intent on the country channel just to make sure, and no one tried to dissuade me. So off I go, and being lighter than the enemy goon, began to catch up with him. He must have given up after a while because he slowed down. So I aimed my right wing at his left and did a slight dive and bank right.
I am very pleased to find out that I took him down, I wasn't sure:) A few minutes ago someone said something to the effect of "Beetle was so pissed off about the goon ramming that he posted it on the BBS! WTG!"
I must say that I am really flattered by all this attention! I didn't know ramming wasn't "cool", especially considering it was a legitimate tactic in WW2. (This is supposed to be a WW2 sim, right?). Anyway, I'll refrain from ramming in the future:)
Oh btw, I'm very grateful you made a film of it, my friends and family are delighted :P
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LOL
don't worry, they'll fix it in AH2 - the planes will bounce off each other - no collisions at all :)
it's a GAME - PLAY it as your $15 tells ya too
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Originally posted by Hooligan
Collisions are determined on the FE. This makes it really hard to ram and damage another aircraft. In other words, the FE of the guy trying to ram will certainly see the collision and that plane will die. On the FE of the other player the planes might be 100 or 200 yards apart due to network lag. This is why most of the time only one aircraft is damaged in a "collision". In this particular case (i.e. goony vs. goony) the fact that both aircraft are really slow would make it much more likely that a ram would succed in hurting the target as well as the rammer. Still that doesn't seem likely and ramming is a tactic of desperation and extremely inneffective at best.
Hooligan
Slower connection speeds usually dictates who wins and who doesn't in a collision. Usually the one with the faster connection will get damaged or die from the collision while the one with the slower connection usually flies off unscathed, even if he's the one that initiated the collision in the first place.
Ack-Ack
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Not so fast, Beet1e.
We're talking "selective realism" here.. you remember, you've been accusing everyone who disagrees with you of "selective realism".
Now, on the ramming topic, it's an " AH tactic"?
Kamikaze ring any bells for you?
Your own instance of the Spitfire pilot?
The known Luftwaffe consideration of ramming the bombers?
No, old son, it's not an "AH tactic" it is a documented "WW2" tactic.
If you want it removed from AH, that would, of course, be "selective realism".
But we all knew you were always one of those guys anyway.
:D
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Thanks for the technical discussion of collisions. I have always wondered why I (no I don't ram on purpose, but I sometimes collide during a head-on pass) am "shot down" 9 times out of 10.
I have a really low ping! It usually runs between 45-80.
Do you think that some players with dial up connections ram on purpose, knowing they have a good chance of coming away with a win--no shots fired?
Well, I'll fix that. Dial up, here I come!! Can you say "33.6 K"? Sure. I knew you could. This could start a race to 300 baud!
Seriously, could that explain why I see a lot of warping?? THe difference in connection speed, not a problem with my connection??
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Ack-Ack:
I really doubt that slower connection speeds have that effect.
On a player's FE if his aircraft touches an enemy aircraft a collision occurs. The FE does not consult the server about this. It shouldn't matter at all for collision detection how good or bad your connection is because all your FE is checking is the positions of 2 objects in your FE.
However, a bad connection will mean that the server and other aircraft will see the collision effects on you later than on the other guy. Suppose A and B both detect a collision and both blow up. If A has a much slower connection than B, then B's death information will be transmitted to the server before A's and A will get a kill on B (even though it was "simultaneous"). This happens just because the server knows that B is dead before it knows that A is dead.
rshubert:
Everybody loses 9 out of 10 collisions. Because most of the time the "winner" evades and doesn't actually collide on his FE. On the other guys FE, his aircraft is typically 100 yards or 200 yards away from where you see it on yours. On his FE he turns enough to evade the enemy aircraft when he is 100 yards out. On your FE you run into each other.
Hooligan
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It starts to get confusing with a guns headon pass.
Pilot A has an 80 ping and Pilot be has a 300 ping.
If I'm understanding this right, in a headon pass, the low ping pilot has the advantage because the con is "closer" to him on his FE than what the high ping pilot sees on his FE.
Low ping opens fire and sees hits ( now being sent to the opponent ) when the opponent is not in firing range on his FE.
Make sense ??
Or does the position updates sent from the low ping pilot TO the high ping pilot equalize the relative "positional distance" or somewhat equalize what there both seeing ??
I'm high ping ( 325 ) and on a guns headon, I'm recieving hits "before" we meet. That would tell me the other FE has a low Ping.
In WB any hits my plane took ALWAYS were AFTER the merge due to lag. There may be a different way of doing things here.
I can't recall ever receiving hits after the merge on my FE here.
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What the hell is a ping!??!!?
Seriously, mine runs about 47 in the MA.
Does this mean I'm at a disadvantage???
I am so confused now!
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ROFL. Ping 150 - 300 here. Go figure.
[edit]Yes, german fighter pilots were trained to ram the enemy.[/edit]
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Originally posted by Toad
Not so fast, Beet1e.
We're talking "selective realism" here.. you remember, you've been accusing everyone who disagrees with you of "selective realism".
Now, on the ramming topic, it's an " AH tactic"?
Kamikaze ring any bells for you?
Your own instance of the Spitfire pilot?
The known Luftwaffe consideration of ramming the bombers?
No, old son, it's not an "AH tactic" it is a documented "WW2" tactic.
If you want it removed from AH, that would, of course, be "selective realism".
But we all knew you were always one of those guys anyway.
:D
I think you missed the "LOL" in my post title! This whole deal was an isolated piece of AH nonsense. I had never been rammed before, and didn't realise that I would die too. It's so rare that it's not worth worrying about. I thought I'd step up as a change-the-game whiner - LOL - was impersonating a few other people in here. :D Admittedly, I was slightly surprised at the goon's choice of tactic, and had I just kept going, Hawker's LA7 would have caught up and saved me. But then I would be suffering the ignominy of having been saved by an LA7 - lol! I died with honour. Hehe, remember that time we first met in the arena, and you were in an LA7 and saved my arse? :) That was DOUBLE ignominy - ROFL ;)
Oh, and we did get V38 a short time later, though its only strategic value as a Bish base was to stop "them" from having it.
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Ah, I see. You were impersonating yourself.
Carry on.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
What the hell is a ping!??!!?
Seriously, mine runs about 47 in the MA.
Does this mean I'm at a disadvantage???
I am so confused now!
ping [Packet INternet Groper]
[from the submariners' term for a sonar pulse] 1. n.
Slang term for a small network message (ICMP ECHO) sent by a
computer to check for the presence and alertness of another.
When you ping another computer, the time is measured from when you sent the ping, to the time you receive an ACK back from the computer you pinged.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
When you ping another computer, the time is measured from when you sent the ping, to the time you receive an ACK back from the computer you pinged.
Why would anyone want an ACK?
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Why would anyone want an ACK?
Ack-Ack
Yeah... let alone two.... Ack Ack?
;)
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Ack-Ack:
Thanks for the clarification. As I am not a buffer I tend not to notice which buffs are firing while on a capped runway; I just see them as buffs. Still, kinda screwy that guns aren't able to fire if they have a claer field of fire; all except the ball turret on the B17 of course.
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Originally posted by Don
Ack-Ack:
Thanks for the clarification. As I am not a buffer I tend not to notice which buffs are firing while on a capped runway; I just see them as buffs. Still, kinda screwy that guns aren't able to fire if they have a claer field of fire; all except the ball turret on the B17 of course.
I don't know why that feature was put in place but it is a rather recent one, think it came with the last patch. Maybe too many vultures whined about it because they got shot down trying to vulch the buff as it took off and thought the buff behavior to be 'gamey'. Personally, I think it puts the buff at a severe disadvantage because of the slow, lumbering rolling speed for take off and the fact that you also have three targets to shoot at most of the time as they take off.
Ack-Ack
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Don't quote me on this Ack-Ack but the inability of buffs to fire while on the ground came about the same time as the nix on car bombing.
They are both measures taken by HTC to keep the "balance" between gamer's and simmer's (IMHO). Face it... in WW2 (before and since), massive numbers of aircrews don't, didn't, won't rush out to thier aircraft and attempt to get airborne (or just sit there) while thier base in under attack just to man thier guns. Take a look sometime, plenty of folks STILL up bombers in the middle of attacks... some actually get off the ground but I seldom see them accomplish much of anything, as it should be. Further... unless a RL base just happens to belong to a bunch of Al-Queda fanatics, the chances of hordes of idiots running out and exploding themselves and everything around them in the name of "base defense" aint gonna happen either.
I'm thankful for these things. I think most are... the whine-0-meter never really got out of the green when these measures were introduced.
P.S. There are times when bombers actually should be able to use thier guns while still on the ground. Heck, I've rolled a buff and been suprised by the lone cherry-picker before. Yep... that would be a good time to have the ability, unfortunately the "gamey hordes" ruined that.
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Originally posted by TW9
I consider it sacrificing myself for my country.. Why should i just let a goon off to capture one of my fields? This must be one of those "gamey" things.. [/B]
Exactly. Would you if you didn't get another "life"? Personally.. I would be in favor of any measure taken by HTC to force (yes force) people to actually think about what thier doing rather than settle for the gamey quick fix.
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Originally posted by Toad
Ramming not a part of WW2 air combat?
Who being selectively realistic now?
Again, your flip-flops are about the best part of this board lately!
:D
Damn straight... In 1943, two-hundred planes were lost to the deadly killshooter.
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Go Sandman Go!
Start the campaign to end Killshooter!
As it doesn't matter to me either way.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Usually the one with the faster connection will get damaged or die from the collision while the one with the slower connection usually flies off unscathed, even if he's the one that initiated the collision in the first place.
Ack-Ack
That is not true at all.
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The mindset to have when your in a position to collide. ....
"I will Die"... "My Enemy will fly off unscathed"...
Whatever electrical voodoo that goes into deciding who receives the damage isnt important. Just figure its going to be worse on you and you will attempt to avoid the situation.
Ramming other planes is.... Hollywood IMHO.
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Originally posted by Toad
Go Sandman Go!
Start the campaign to end Killshooter!
As it doesn't matter to me either way.
LOL... everytime someone speaks of realism, it strikes my killshooter nerve. :)