Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: udet on June 01, 2003, 10:51:26 PM
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A couple of days ago I went to a shooting range for the first time. I had never fired a real gun before. I fired three pistols (2 9mm and one 40 caliber), and two revolvers. I don't remember their names, except for the Beretta.
Even to a novice like me, the gun felt more powerful, accurate and with a greater rate of fire. My question is: how much does one cost, and what's the cheapest way to acquire one?
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If you're new to it, best to go to a reputable gun shop and pay a bit more. I'm not afraid to buy used, but then I'm not afraid to tear down guns, install new parts, etc.
Expect a decent 9mm to cost $400+.
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if you are getting a gun to just plink cans or kill paper targets.. then you can get away with spending less.. but if you are going to use if for defense and carry, then dig deep and go for a serious carry weapon. HK, Sig Sauer, Beretta, Glock. (yup, in the 400-900 $ range)
my .02
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if you are planning to carry it, skip the Barretta, it's a damn anchor. I had mine for a year or so. It shot real nice but packing that heavy thing gets old quick.
But if you’re not concerned with the weight and liked the Barretta you can save some cash and buy a Tarus(sp?), a high quality knock-off of the Barretta 9mm.
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I suppose if you are concerned about weight, you can't really beat a Glock for lightness, maybe a compact HK USP if you want to go top end. (I'd feel safe with either)
Capt A is right, the M92 is pretty heavy, 'specially fully loaded and prolly not too concealable if you are a small person.
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Glock is the #1 law enforcement sidearm in AZ. They are simple, tough and shoot well. There's lots out there, as has been mentioned. Also including things like a Browning Hi-Power and the S&W's. My first choice for a 9mm would be a CZ 75.
My advice would be to go back to the range and shoot 4 or 5 of them. Figure out which one's you like best and start there. Which ones fit you best and do you feel most comfortable with.
Also, take a class of some sort. Either a Fish and Game or NRA hunter-safety course or a concealed weapon permit course. Even if you never plan on hunting or carrying the pistol concealed. These courses will teach the few basic rules that every gunowner needs to be safe. They will also give you tips on how to shoot more accurately, etc.
1. Unless you have checked it yourself, the gun is loaded.
2. Never point it at anything you wouldn't mind a bullet in.
3. Be sure you know what is behind your target.
Follow these three rules and you'll have years of enjoyment. Good shooting!
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1. Unless you have checked it yourself, the gun is loaded.
Personally, I treat a gun like it is loaded even if I have checked it.
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Yes sir, the new CZ 75 P01.......Yum, Yum.
CZ 75 P-01 (http://www.cz-usa.com/_p/pdt.php?id=50)
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I have a Beretta 92 and love it-expect to pay about $500 for the regular model,and maybe $150 more for the Elite model.
They are all correct though-it is a big heavy gun.If they pass a concealed carry law here in Ohio,I'll be buying something smaller and lighter.
I love that 92 though...very easy to clean.You can field strip it in ten seconds.
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Soxman
No carry laws there? that sux. can you keep a handgun in your car there?
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Nope-not yet.You can't even carry openly-you'll get cited for "inciting a panic".
But a CC law was passed by the House,and it looks like the Senate may pass it also by a veto proof margin.Here's hoping.
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the glocks seem weird to me. while I know the grips are supposed to be ergonomically correct they just seem off. I imagine they would be great if you started off with one and didn't have to re-learn.
myself I started out on ruger revolvers and an old navy colt cap & ball. the thing that’s weird about the glock is the alignment between the grip and the barrel. while it might technically be an even better design than all the other guns I've used, the fact remains that it's just different. and in an emergancy I'd rather be able to know what to expect without having to think to much ablout the details.
I checked into buying one awhile ago and I never could get it to feel natural in my hand.
one test I do with a handgun to see how it feels is to just point it at something (without aiming) then hold your position and look down the sights and see how close you are.
I tried this with a glock (laser equipped), pointed it at a dartboard about 12' away, then turned on the laser, I was well over a foot off of where I thought I was aiming.
with any of my other guns I would expect to be no more than 6 inches off at that distance, allowing some of that for the gun moving while you move your head to look down the sights- I know hardly a scientific method - I would expect a more accurate representation with the laser sight since I don't have to change position at all just turn on the light.
with that considered I'd hate to have to use it in a high stress situation. IMO if you are going to use a gun for protection you should be able to hit a man size target @ under 30' with reasonable accuracy without much more effort than you'd use pointing your finger. I'd hate to have to line up sights while moving and somebody trying to kill me.
Give me a nice S&W auto any day, or if you got the cash you can't beat the browning hi-power.
if money is really no object or you think you will likely need to use it often in a life and death situation go for a sig
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Make sure you get some training no matter which gun you get and learn to respect it. The person you are most likely to shoot is you. I've seen people get a jam and then point the thing at themselves as they clear it!!!!
I was lucky to be trained by the military.
Captain Apathy makes a good point about accuracy but to be honest handguns are not by nature precision weapons despite all the movies. I was pretty good, almost marksman standard but I couldn't pretend to be able to maintain that standard while under stress. So if it's protection you feel you need (who's after you anyway?) get something with lots of ammo. The Browning Hi-Power fulfils that requirement but has a bulky grip. But you sure can fire a lot of bullets, no bad guy would hang around with all those 9mm's heading at him. Much is made of the stopping power of bigger calibre handguns but you have to hit him first!
If you're not paranoid and just want to have fun plinking I would go for something sexy. Which leaves the field open.
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A handgun is a personal thing in that everyone has individual tastes and abilities to shoot. The best advice I can give is to go to a range that allows you to shoot a variety of weapons and get a feeling for what feels good to YOU.
Aside from that point the next consideration is what you intend to use the gunb for. Is defense an issue? Is it just a target or casual plinker? How much do you want to shoot it?
These issues lead into caliber. Some folks swear by the .45 and claim that you will get a knockdown on every hit. That is pure bull, but it sounds nice. A 9mm is easy to come by and there is a large variety of ammo to shoot. Practice can be inexpensive if you shop around for buys on ammo. The hands down champ for cheap shooting is the .22 and you can get ammo all over the place for it. If you shop well a brick for under $10.00 is easy. A brick is 500 rounds.
A revolver isn't anything to sneeze at. The caliber issue is again a point to consider. For serious work nothing less than a .38 and a .357 is better as it allows you to practice with cheaper .38 ammo and shoot .357 for serious work. A choice of single vs double action will have to be made. Personally I like the double action but Cowboy shooting matches are supposed to be lots of fun.
Just look at what is out there and try a selection. :)
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Originally posted by Maverick
Some folks swear by the .45 and claim that you will get a knockdown on every hit. That is pure bull, but it sounds nice.
Show me ANY human that can remain standing after a solid hit from a .45 and I will run screaming like a little girl.(After I empty the clip)
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Here is a good test to see if you are using the 'right' handgun. Get your best friend to sit on a stool. Place an apple on his head and a cigarette in his mouth. Next, put on a pair of roller-skates. Skate about 15 feet away from him. Start spinning in circles with the skates on, and try to shoot the apple off your friends head and the cigarette out of his mouth.
I do this test all the time but last time I had been drinking and went to buy a new shotgun. Lets just say I got the apple and cigarette with 1 shot, but now I need a new best friend.
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Glocks are nice, it is what I carry just about everyday. As for the Beretta 92 9mm, it is a big gun, but it can be concealed. For years we had them in MPI and CID rolls, they are big and hvy, but they still can be worn that way. Now we have the Sig P228 9mm (M11) and the Sig P226 9mm tactical (M13) for our MPI, CID, and SRT agents in the military.
As for taurus, I would hardly call it a Beretta knock off, if anything in some area it out preforms the Beretta. Also it might not hurt to look into a used gun. This way you can get a high quality side-arm with out breaking the bank. A used Glock 19 9mm, 17 9mm, or 26 9mm, can be found in the 350$-450$ range.
I am how ever a glock fanatic. I love them, there not pretty, they are no frills business weapons. They have one job to do, and they do it well. There will be ppl that say H&Ks are better, and they are nice pistols, they can run right up there with the glock. In fact I would have to issues with using one..... but why pay $800 for a pistol that works the same as a 500$ pistol? Becuz its looks better you say? Well then you know nothing about self defence pistols. Looks should be very low on the list of needs.
If anything buy the Glock, and spend the money on things like extra mags, extended slide releases, exstended mag releases, mag well plugs, Perce grip mag extentions, FOBUS holster, and mag holder. Then spend the extra 75$ left over to get the slide done in a satin finish. Now you have a Glock that is custom carry ready, and will out perform an H&K easly, somthing the Glock did just fine in its stock setting.
Even then the bottom line is carry what you like, carry what works. If its stupid but it works, its not stupid. I have seen things like ruber bands wraped around grips, skate board tape on grips. Little tricks ppl have learned. Find somthing that works for you and stick with it.
In my school I have found that I have to watch what I do and say, as well what I carry. So when I am teaching a class, or whenever I am at the range, you will hardly ever see me wear the same gun everyday. Some ppl say that is a mistake, that in a shooting I may freeze and wont know how to operate the gun correctly. Well what I say to that, two shootings later I am still alive. I spend 15 hours a day at the range, partly becuz I own it, and partly becuz I enjoy it. I fire my weapon or a firearm atleast four maybe five times a day.
What I am trying to point out, once you have selected your firearm you MUST train with it. Take the weapon to the range after you buy it, fire 500 target rnds or so though it. Get use to the feel of it, how it shoots, how it recoils, what o'clock postistion is the sight picture. The load it up with no less than 200 rnds of the defensive amm you are going to load in it. Get a feel for how it shoots with the new ammo. Guns perform diffent with diffrent types of ammo. You should do this when ever you change ammo types.
Then practice drawing from the holster. Do this at home at the range. You can use snap caps. This will help you to draw faster. Try drawing your weapon from under lots of clothes, just like you would in the winter, practice drawing your weapon with gloves on. Have a friend help you with an UNLOADED AND SAFE WEAPON, OR TRAINING GUN IE TOY GUN. to practice break away drills where someone is right next to you, and you need to break away to draw and fire, practice contact shots, some weapons wont fire simply becuz they slide is being pushed back when the barrel is placed on someones body. So you will need to push the back of the slide foward while pulling your firing hand back to get off the contact shot.
Practice, practice, practice. It is the key. It becomes more and more easy as you go. At the point of you practicing this much, you will feel secure even with somthing as small as a .22. Exsample.
One night I was in the office, we had close but one of the other owners and myself were there. We were going to hang out there all night, repair the back stop and clean. (Mostly sit on our tulips eat pizza and watch DVDs in the back offce.) Our range is on the corner of a not so good part of town. I had locked my firearm up in my truck outback. We heard glass break, we had not installed the bars on the windows yet, the lights were out up front. Jarred had his Taurus PT100 .40 (basicly a Berreta 96 .40) I had nothing, in the drawer next to me was a little .38 Darrenger. I grabed that. Him and I cleared the whole building with me using a darrenger. Turns out the glass we heard break was a light in the range, that fell down after being shot earler in the day.
The next day Joel (Jarreds brother and the other co- owner) asked me if I would have been able to hit someone with it. So I went out on the range, fired both shots at 50Ft and nailed pretty much dead center. This comes from practice. I am was not born with a gift. Anyone can shoot like that. You just need to practice.Click here (http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/bullet_catcher_357/lst?&.dir=/My+pics&.src=ph&.begin=9999&.view=t&.order=)
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pistols are fun,,i got a old colt dragoon cap and ball that is a ton of fun,,and still considerd the 5th most powerfull production pistol in the world,,not too shabby for a gun made in the 1850's,,colt walker cap and ball is more powerfull than a 44mag
berretta's a good gun,,i like the 40cal model my self,,but if you want the most balanced pistol in the world,,its the luger 9mm hands down,,could shoot 5,000 rounds with out failing just like the colt 1911<~~only reason usa took the colt instead,,was because we didnt wanna pay germany for gun rights,,,just like the famous 1903 mauser knock off,,lol
for short barrels,,they cost about 300bucks too 600 for a nice one in fireing order,,longer barrled models cost much more,,plus its still legal to stick a 32 round snail drum and gun stock on them,,now wouldnt that be fun?,,and for speed firing,,its one of the fastest pistol in the world,,even some rare experimental models were made fully auto
all counts what you want in a gun,,9mm good controllible rounds,,357 loud powerfull and very shootible<~~seen a 6 year old kid shoot one and it was a revolver,,40cal is fun,,,,,i dont think i could settle for just one kinda pistol,,,,,there are so many good ones out there,,,,i liked every round i have ever shot,,from 22 cal all up too 44 ,,50cal,,they all got there good points and bad,, ,,magum reseach make the biggest baddest pistol right now,,its a 45.70 revolver,,i havent shot it yet,,but i bet it kicks like a monster
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Originally posted by hyena426
but if you want the most balanced pistol in the world,,its the luger 9mm hands down,,could shoot 5,000 rounds with out failing just like the colt 1911<~~only reason usa took the colt instead,,was because we didnt wanna pay germany for gun rights,,,just like the famous 1903 mauser knock off,,lol
Someone here doesnt know there history. The Luger was so torn up from the US Army trials that it was thrown away. The luger has a higher cycle rate than the Colt 1911. Plus the 9mm rnd doesnt pack much punch. There are Colt 1911s that have been stored for 60 years loaded, that fired each of the bullets that were put it in. The reasion for this is colts, heavy slide, soft springs, this means a much lower cycle rate. There is no way a luger could do the same thing. You would have a failure to feed on each round.
Also the Colt is far more rugged than the Luger, there is one Colt 1911 that I know of, made by the Rand Corp that is still serving with the US Army today. This 1911 has seen combat since 1942 where it served in the Pac theater. It saw action in Korea, VN, Panama, and Desert Storm. It now sits at Ft Bragg in storage. Still in the Armys invtory, still shooting. Bottom line the .45 Colt 1911 was picked not becuz they didnt want to pay germany rights. It was picked becuz it was a far better pistol. Even today in the world of plastics, and hi-tech firearms the old classic 1911 is still the number one choice of concealed carry buyers.
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colt walker is not as powerfull as a 44 mag... even with a full load of ffg it will not push its 130-140 grain ball out much past 1200 fps.. A 44 mag will do this with a 240 grain slug. you do the math.
revolvers are very good at instinctive shooting and shooting under pressure. Unless you just forget to load it you will get a shot off... if you have five missfires in a row you will get a shot off.
lazs
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oh... lugers are extremely accurate but comlex and fire a weak 9mm round.. they are extremely prone to jams and very magazine and ammo sensitive.. they are also dangerous to carry in any way that is usable. the few "45 lugers" that were made were junk. the first one could not be made to fire after being dropped in the mud and the second one blew out a breechbolt... I have done that wih a 9mm luger and hot rounds. a very fragile arm... the P38 was superior but still a weak little 9mm.
lazs
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Originally posted by rpm371
Show me ANY human that can remain standing after a solid hit from a .45 and I will run screaming like a little girl.(After I empty the clip)
rpm,
Read the part of my post that you quoted. This time read it for COMPREHENSION. Then please show me where I used the term "solid hit". :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by rpm371
Show me ANY human that can remain standing after a solid hit from a .45 and I will run screaming like a little girl.(After I empty the clip)
You lack the understanding of balistics, and wounding. A human is not killed by the bullet its self, rather the loss of blood, which cuts of oxgen to the brain, making a person pass out and die. So a person can take four or five hits from a .45 and still come at you. Its the shock and loss of blood that stops someone from comming. Bottom line, the bigger wound cavity a round makes, the more blood is lost, and the sooner the fight is stoped.
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wrong again... very few people die from loss of blood in a gunshot wound.. the shock wave and destruction of vital organs is the cause of death. secondary wounds caused by shattered bones and their resultant damage to internal organs.
lazs
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Yeah, its the hydrostatic shock that kills you.
if you want to stop people near instantly, a poison tipped dart from an airgun will generally do a better (and quieter) job. better yet, a tazer.
but if it's a handgun you're after,
(http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/civilian/images/p7_r1_c2.gif)
I like it.
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ooooh the HK P7
I'd hack off a nut to get my hands on a P7 M13. I think the state patrol of Maryland or Vermont issues these as side arms.
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All wrong. What really kills you from a gunshot wound is lead poisoning. Caliber matters some, but the real factor is the LCC (lead content coefficient) of the bullet you're using. Bigger bullets tend to have a bigger LCC. It's true, I read it in "Guns & Ammo." Or maybe it was "Soldier of Fortune."
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Personaly I like my Ruger p89, 9mm. Has 15 shots, points just as naturaly as my finger and no recoil, so follow up shots are much easier than the "bouncy" 45.
On stopping power, youre right Its kenetic energy that "stops" people. If you waited for someone to bleed out you would be there for 30-40 min. You get kenetic energy by this formula:
KE=mass(velocity squared) SO you get a huge increase in energy with a small increase in velocity and not much of a pay off with more weight. If you look at the ft lbs produced by average self defence loads there is very little difference between the 9mm, 40 cal, 45, and the 357 sig. You get a slight advantage with the 357 mag (basicaly a 9mm bullet at higher velocity) Why do you think the 223 round is so effective, very small bullet, light weight, very high velocity. Also the type of bullet makes a huge difference. Don't go with cheap, full metal jacket ammo for self defence. Spend the money and get the premium "self defence" bullets.
I have see many people shot in my career as a medic, the #1 factor reguarding effective use of a hand gun is shot placement. The caliber doesn't matter much as long as it is 9mm and above. Shoot about 1000 rounds a year to stay "current" with you gun, and more if you are just begining and clean it well after each use. An unreliable gun is worse than no gun, because once you pull out a gun you force the "bad guy" to make a decision. If he chooses to fight and your gun jams or missfires, you are going to die.
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Originally posted by lazs2
wrong again... very few people die from loss of blood in a gunshot wound.. the shock wave and destruction of vital organs is the cause of death. secondary wounds caused by shattered bones and their resultant damage to internal organs.
lazs
Yeah, its the hydrostatic shock that kills you.
All wrong. What really kills you from a gunshot wound is lead poisoning. Caliber matters some, but the real factor is the LCC (lead content coefficient) of the bullet you're using. Bigger bullets tend to have a bigger LCC. It's true, I read it in "Guns & Ammo." Or maybe it was "Soldier of Fortune."
It always amazes me how little ppl really know about ballstics.
Let me point you guys here. This is the true awser. If you say I am wrong then you are also saying 30 years of work done by these other guys is wrong too. This is where I get my knowlege, not from "Guns & Ammo".
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
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Hydrostatic shock???
nope
"In the case of low-velocity missiles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet."20
Knock down power!!??
nope
A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32 Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.
Why I use my .45 with heavy pills!!
It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44
from
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Facts are Facts
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Here are several good threads about velocity, bullet weight and what causes instant kills from a hunting BBS I frequent. Some quality info:
About "Hydrostatic Shock"
http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002828#000009
Role of Velocity
http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003391
Instantanous kills?
http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003378#000031
Sectional density v. frontal area
http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002003
The Importance of Energy and the Kill
http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002295
All from http://www.accuratereloading.com/
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Originally posted by Maverick
rpm,
Read the part of my post that you quoted. This time read it for COMPREHENSION. Then please show me where I used the term "solid hit". :rolleyes:
I never said or implied YOU said "Solid Hit". Read this SLOWLY and carefully. I will not use big words so you can COMPREHEND my statement. If I hit someones finger, they will most likely not go down. If I get a "Solid" torso, arm, or leg hit ("Soild" meaning deep muscular or bone, not just a minor flesh wound)...they are going to the ground in rapid fashion. Was that drawn out enough for you to COMPREHEND my original post?:rolleyes: