Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: najdorf on June 02, 2003, 12:39:20 PM
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I think the one thing that has not been said by the furball advocates so far that needs to be said is this: Achieving an a2a victory is more difficult and more satisfying than killing a building.
I never got an from any of the hudreds of town buildings I've destroyed.
Very simply put, and I've said it before, this game is a combat air sim. It's about dogfiting. 75 fiters in a 10k radius, aka the "furball" is the ultimate expression of the purpose of the game.
I am not advocating that it be the only thing in the game. I occasionally get involved in the base grab aspect of the game. It usually occurs when I'm frustrated from getting slapped out of the sky by a good pilot.
But I always come back to the dogfiting. There is nothing like the rush you get from an a2a victory. Do it in a huge furball and live to tell the tale and it's even better. I think most of you strat guys know it's true, you gave up trying to be the Red Baron because it was too difficult. The plane truth of the matter is, it's a hell of a lot easier to blast a building, pork some petrol or drop some drunks than it is to kill an nme fiter, especially one driven by a good stick.
There are guys in here that are incredible pilots: Wildthing, Shane, Urchin, Eagler in his 109, Big Max, there are too many to name. But that list gives you an idea of what you should be striving for in the game. They didn't achieve that status by bashing buildings and grabing bases.
The strat stuff is just a diversion, the real action is in acm, in the furball. Take the time to learn it, you'll be glad you did.
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Naj, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on some points. First, and most importantly: Shane isn't any good.. he sucks!!!!
Heheheh, j/k Shano...our late night fights are a blast!
Anyway, I sincerely feel that there is room for both strat and furballers in the MA. I think you are unfairly generalizing when you say that all strat people are those that simply gave up trying to master A2A combat. Look, I love the A2A aspect of the game, it's a real rush.
There are times that I like the strat part too though. Over the weekend, I had 2 TG's cruising in tight "formation" and a bunch of my fellow rooks rallied around them and we took a couple of fiercely defended bish bases. It was great fun working in concert with my teammates to kill Sb's, ord, and the like in an effort to hamper bish resistance. In return, the bishops put up practically heroic resistance and the ensuing battles were epic. Night before last, I grabbed a TG and a motley assortment of rooks and proceeded to take 6 nit bases in less than an hour. We were so effective that one nit posed the standard whine: There the rooks go, taking undefended bases. The fact was, were were marching to the nit mainland and the nits outnumbered us! With good strat work and teamwork, our outnumbered guys managed to take a port on the nit mainland where determined nit resistance finally stemmed our advance. I'm telling you Naj, it's a blast to be able to work with your teammates and make strategically relevent things happen. It's very pleasing to see 20 or so guys all working together to accomplish something. I really enjoy working as a team like that. So Naj, I guess I'm at least a part time strat dweeb, but i do ok in a fighter... doncha think?
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Woof... gotta reply to this!
Some of what you say is true, that the dogfight is the ultimate challenge and requires the greatest acquired skills. Latent talent is a big factor limiting many players to the level they can attain. A player can play for many years, some now approaching twenty, and still find it challenging with more to learn. Human to human contest is by far the most challenging, rewarding and enduring form or air to air combat, making games like AcesHigh so great.
But this isn't for everyone all the time, and limiting the game to air combat also limits the fun factor and player base. For example, a massive dogfight can soon grow boring if there is nothing to fight for. So base capture, base defense, strategic factors, historic accuracy and an objective serve to enhance the air combat... or it should.
The variety of other things you can do in the game, like mud pounding, ground action and sea combat provide alternatives when even the ace of ace gets tired of dogfights. For example, I (not an ace by any means) often use these alternate game play options when I find air combat too intense for my liking at the moment... taking a break.
I find that I only need one base to defend to keep me happy all night. I really care little about what's happening in the rest of the arena. If someone else is pounding one of our bases from a CV, that's fine with me. Everyone should be able to find the type of action they like, including milk run type stuff, suicide jabo, attack and run, cherry picking, space flight... whatever. Whatever floats your boat so you will give HTC your $15.
But I don't like arena capture because it messes things up for others. The most efficient way to capture bases is to avoid air to air combat entirely or use overwhelming force, to destroy and capture bases with impuninty. This is probably the cause of your complaint also. Rather than being the focus of AcesHigh, players complain that dogfighters aren't doing their part.
When your country doesn't have many bases left, it's no longer much fun for many. It shouldn't get to this.
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Hey Steve,
I am not saying to do away with the strat, I'm just saying that building busting doesn't compare to a2a combat. The Furball is king in AH and those who do it best are the paramount players. My list of them was small because it was meant to be illustrative and not exhaustive. Having flown against you and your pony, I'd put you right there with them.
And, once again, I am not advocating getting rid of a particular aspect of the game, I am just saying I believe it is more challenging and rewarding to be a great furballer over a great strat player. If you're both, well that's fine, but I bet you get the most satisfaction from killing another great furballer a2a than killing the most intimidating of buildings.
I also agree that there is some talent required to be one of the great furballers, something that possibly can't be learned, but I never stop trying.
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Originally posted by najdorf
Hey Steve,
I am not saying to do away with the strat, I'm just saying that building busting doesn't compare to a2a combat.
It does not. Building busting is better. They never whine.
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Originally posted by najdorf
I think the one thing that has not been said by the furball advocates so far that needs to be said is this: Achieving an a2a victory is more difficult and more satisfying than killing a building.
I never got an from any of the hudreds of town buildings I've destroyed.
Very simply put, and I've said it before, this game is a combat air sim. It's about dogfiting. 75 fiters in a 10k radius, aka the "furball" is the ultimate expression of the purpose of the game.
I respectfully submit that you are simply looking at the picture from a furballer's POV.
We have buildings, a porked strat-system, bombers and people who enjoy that aspect of the game. AH is not simply about furballing, nor is furballing king (unless King = the majority point-and-click types)
The absolute best furball's I've participated in happened "back-in-the-day" when guys like Rip would put up mass bomber missions with excellent escort while droves of defense minded folks happily got up to meet the challenge.
IMHO, having to think about it makes all the difference. Diving into a furball at 500k and picking off a few on the way through requires little thought. Horsing around with 20 other planes to be picked off by the 500knt fly-through cherry picker doesn't require much thought either.
Indeed, furballing and staying alive DOES require great SA and more often than not, some major seat-of-the-pants flying skills.
However... "Some" people see the combination of the "Furball" and "Strat" as the ultimate high. As far as I can tell.. that "High" is currently in hibernation.
The only way "everyone" is going to be happy, is if "everyone" gets in the game and makes it happen. The constant bickering (which IMO is highly indicitive of the "me" generation) about what style is best or worse or which one the game should be dedicated to will never do anything more than detract from the overall game.
Don't get me wrong... I LOVE the "mindless furball" at times. I also enjoy the Strat system and the aspects it brings to the game. I wish more folks thought that way.
With any luck, AHII will be what defines the medium that everyone can be happy with. If not... I truly believe AH will degenerate into Quake-with-Wings and eventually end up on par with Warbirds or even possibley (gasp) Air Warrior.
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Hmmm, I have to concede, you have me there. There really is nothing more thrilling than a hair-on-fire-you-better-damned-well-have-your-head-on-a-swivel furball.
I misread your first post as a slam on strat guys. ....sorry.
Please understand though: I am wholly against suicide dweebs(especially cv suicide dweebs that spoil a good battle). Other than those guys, I really don't understand where guys like Lazs are getting upset at "building battlers". what I mean is: it's often the building battlers(infinity and pizza map steamrollers excluded) that get the great furballs started. I think the two groups of folks are intertwined and that there is no great need for change with the following exceptions: Cv's should be hardened, suicide runs should be made impractical. Maybe make bombs duds if the pilot doesn't survive 20 secs after drop or something..i am really not sure. Just my 2cents. :)
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how about...both? Go on a Jabo mission-try to get to your target unharmed without jettisonning your load, bomb the target, and then get into a furball....easy enuff, right?
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My name is jamusta and im a strat dweeb!!!!
My only problem is the majority of the time I seem to try and fight my way thru the furball to get to the base that the enemy is uping from. I never understood why the furballers and strat guys cant work together. I think of the furballers my personal escort when I want to strike a base. I enjoy all aspects of the game. Its like shifting gears. A change of pace. As a strat type guy I fly fighters mostly cus I want to get better. But I like trying to take well defended fields. I am no suicide guy. I always try to live. Most of the time I dont.
So lets make a pact,
Furballers continue to furball. While you are doing that I will continue to try to take enemy base. If we are successful in taking the base, let say our salutes and move to the next one and do it all over again.
And by the way if the enemy is attacking my base I will do eveything in my power to pork the base where the enemy is upping from. Until I get tired of being killed ofcourse which usually take awhile.
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Some of us actually enjoy both. I love to furball and dogfight the majority of the time. But when the countires get down to
Knights (26)
Bish (4)
Rook (26)
Strat playing gets really fun. Trying to beat the other country to the win or fend them off can be a blast.
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Originally posted by najdorf
Very simply put, and I've said it before, this game is a combat air sim. It's about dogfiting. 75 fiters in a 10k radius, aka the "furball" is the ultimate expression of the purpose of the game.
Lies! Lies!
http://www.hitechcreations.com/htcindex.html
"Capturing territory through the use of air, land and sea power is the objective of Aces High."
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Like some others have said, I enjoy both strat and furballing. Heck, you can do both during one sortie.
Arrive over target, dive in and drop you ordnance, then engage the defending fighters till gas, ammo or luck run low enough to RTB (assuming you survive that long).
I've flown over furballs, delivered my ord and joined the furball on the way back.
Want more action? Take a perk fighter into the furball. Avoid the distasteful half-sector extends, work the vertical plane and you'll have lots of fun, especially when everyone is focused on you. Just remember, once they get target fixated on your perk fighter, you can count on many getting killed by your countrymen already there.
Furballing may or may not improve your ACM skills, but it will certainly improve your SA, which is THE most important skill you can develop.
There's no reason to argue against one or the other since you can do both during any sortie.
One thing about furballers is that they usually tie up an equal number of the enemy. Therefore, they DO contribute to the strat game, albeit indirectly. Unless, of course, you would rather encounter the prospective enemy furballers waiting for you at 20k instead of whirling about down on the deck. Be careful what you wish for, ya know?
My regards,
Widewing
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Strat is just a framework to create furballs.
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furballing is therapuetic!
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Well both aspects are important in AH. As far is god-blessing the unbleievable importance of the furball, I can ask, how often did furballs occur in WW2?
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Well both aspects are important in AH. As far is god-blessing the unbleievable importance of the furball, I can ask, how often did furballs occur in WW2?
who gives a turd? no offence. I just like it.
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Najdorf,
You are entitled to your point of view, just as I am entitled to mine and all other AH players are entitled to theirs. You seem to present the "furballing is better" case as a statement of fact, whereas it is a subjective statement. I personally feel that the combat arising out of strategic initiatives is better than the "manufactured" combat arising from furballs. That's just my view, but plenty of people agree with me, if events in the MA are taken into account.
If you are content to hold your opinion, and let other players hold theirs, I see no problem. But what I find to be a major source of irritation is when one particular group (more usually the furballers - much less often the strat players) call for changes to the strat and changes to the game itself in order to create advantages to their choice of playing style, to the detriment of everyone else.
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I love killing fuel and FH they don't use those evasives cheat in my gunsight !
Flame away :D
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I love a good 1v1, but the strategy is what keeps me interested in the game. I really enjoyed hasbro's "Axis & Allies" board game. And what I though would be cool would be to make my moves on the board, then instead of rolling the dice, I could simulate the attack. This game doesn't exactly do that, but it comes as close as anything i've found.
WWIIonline was good, but the flight model was horrible. But I think the best 1v1 or 2v2 fights can be found in the DA. Those are the honorable fights where there is a merge at equal alts and rules are adhered to.
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This is a fishing tournament.
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Yep.. the best fights are between two close fields where people ar upping all the time... some give and take.. or between a CV and a field or another CV.. give me one of those fights and I don't care what happens on the rest of the map... me nor the 40 or so guys in the fight. Best is when there are 2 or three spots like that on the map to choose from.
worst is when the toolshed killers have made all the good fields useless or when there is what looks like a good fight but by the time you get to it it is a steamroller or you are outnumbered 5 to 1 by the defenders. Or... there is nothing at the field but a dozen ground vehicles with their gamey model.
I don't mind seeing fields captured or people tryuing to do it... I just don't like em to be made useless for 30 minutes when I only have a couple of hours to play. I don't like to get 3 kills an hour in a "massive" multiplayer game... I don't like to defend against the building battlers because... if you pry em away from the numbers they are no fun to fight... they die trying to evade. Ai is better fights.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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given the low average skill level of all pilots taken as a whole, furballin' is the patzer's route. it does not tend to victory. for the "i only care about me" types it's ideal.
the point of the game is to capture territory & win war. those that disagree, feel free to rewrite manual & recode the game.
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so hap... HT told you this?
I think that the object is to attract and keep as many players, paying $15 an hour as possible.. when I talked to him he seemed to feel that I was permitted to furball as my "object" of the game.
lazs
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lazs, i think that the biggest issue with furball vs strat is the map layouts.
right now all maps in the MA actively encourage, if not outright demand, furballing as the means to capture fields. Missions to capture fields are in essence organized furballs, and they usually launch from a field closeby and all they do is set up a vulch or a low alt furball cap until troops arrive for take.
The tremendous disparity in aircraft in the MA is also a furball magnet. Most of the 'strat' monkeys are, i believe, looking for a more realistic WW2 simulation.. aka historical matchups of 109s vs p51s and the likes.. and that is usually denied by meeting a huge mixup of T&B and B&Z planes which usually ends up becoming a furball instead of a dogfight, with players having to deal with both kinds of energy fighters and turnfighters in the same area, and the result is what we have in the MA now: The planes that can run or have the best turn rate and bristle with cannons are preffered..because in the quake shootfest thats what works.
im working on a map that i hope tickles both player's fancy of fighting.. work in progress stay tuned.
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OIO... I dissagree.. the layout ihas been leaning more and more away from the true furball... late war planes are not furballs... gangbanging is not furballs nor is steamrollering or making all the fields over a sector apart and then making it easy for suicide dweebs to pork the field. None of those things are furballs... you may get some cherry picking and gangbanging and vultching but no real furballs.
Face it "strat" guys... you are nothing without the worst element in the game... without the sacrafice of the suicide building battlers and suicide fluffs who do all the heavy lifting for your so called "strat"... you would be dong nothing except trying to belittle a bunch of guys into steamrollering a undefended or lightly defended field..
That is why any suggestion to negate the overbalanced effect they have is met with such resistance by the "strat" guys... you pretend to abhor the suicide dweebs but you, in fact, depend on them for your gameplay... before the huge influx of low or no talent newbie suicide boyz... you had no real momentum
The only thing furballers depend on is a place for it to happen.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
so hap... HT told you this?
I think that the object is to attract and keep as many players, paying $15 an hour as possible.. when I talked to him he seemed to feel that I was permitted to furball as my "object" of the game.
lazs
You're free to play chess in a way that you consider yourself the winner when you take the opponents queen. You don't have to care that you opponent will laugh about you when you lose your king...
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Lazs, that was a spew of nothing but biased nonsense and assumption. I furball, i play the strat game, and I do want to be able to do whichever i want at a given time. I DESPISE suicide dweebs because it makes the strat element totally gamey and pointless. I don't JABO, but for strat i'll take some buffs. But you know what? It's pointless. Why? Because the suiciders have already made three trips in the time it takes me one, and the field is already porked or even captured. By the way, i make sure there isnt a furball between the bases i'm attacking. (hell, i'de be there instead)
I'm just as happy to hear a solution to the suicide dweeb (oor the effect of) as you are. But you know what? You provide nothing towards a solution other than re-stating the problem, which we're all fully aware of. So it's become a whine, and it's become pointless to say it anymore.
So now you proceed to attack the players since you've realised the whining about the system is doing nothing.
All i hear is "mememe, you fix it for me!".
I'm sorry lazs, but i don't see it your way.
I'm a strat dweeb building battler.
I'm a furball dweeb quake-style gamer.
If anyone can think of a way to fix one without comprimising the other, i'm all for it.
(Yes, i know this is just going to get some witty personal attack in 'response', so fire away, poundin on your chest)
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Originally posted by Hap
the point of the game is to capture territory & win war. those that disagree, feel free to rewrite manual & recode the game.
Hap, the point of any game is to help to structure your time. By other words to keep your entertained doing something valuable (flying AH) instead of something not so valuable (like growing children, or making money). By other word, the point of the game to make you have fun (and pay for it).
If Lazs loves to furball, and that is his fun, great. If you love to capture fields and win wars, that is your fun, and it is also great. MA is a place when we all could greatly do all the great stuff.
And hands off Lazs, he is the king of the show! When he appears in any thread, I buy popcorn, cola, and find a good place to watch what will follow
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I really don't think the game needs "fixing." My point was simply that dogfiting is the central objective of the game which is a "COMBAT FLIGHT SIM." Also, I think dogfiting is a more difficult and rewarding aspect of the game than level bombing, JABO, or base capture. I do those things as a change of pace or when I'm up on squad nite and that's the mission. I enjoy it, but, it ain't dogfitin'.
I do agree with those that get irritated by people doing suicide attacks on the fuel dumps. I log on, see an area that looks like it has a good furball going and then up at an area base only to find out I'm limited to 25% fuel. Then I try every other are base and they are at 25% fuel. Very frustrating.
Now some of you strat guys will say, hey, defend the base. How? If some dweeb is intent on porking fuel and he doesn't mind dying a few times to do it, you can't stop him.
Or you say, go to a rear base and transit. Hey, I don't always have 3 hours to spend on line, I've got a job and a girlfriend who already hates the game.
The fuel porking is the only gameplay issue relevant to this discussion that I think could use a little adjusting. I would almost rather not have a fuel variant.
My main point however, is not suggesting that the game needs tweaking towards one element over another, it is simply stating the obvious, Dogfiting is why we're here, the rest is window dressing.
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Originally posted by najdorf
My main point however, is not suggesting that the game needs tweaking towards one element over another, it is simply stating the obvious, Dogfiting is why we're here, the rest is window dressing.
Sorry..Dogfighting is why YOU'RE here. Please do not attempt to speak for the entire community.
I'm hear for the whole experience from Dogfighting, to GVs.
The day AH becomes Quake with wings, is the day I sign off for good.
But you've given me an idea...
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rut... I don't think we are that far off in agreeing (was that witty enough?). You abhor the suicide dweebs. I am not calling you a liar but point out thatmost of todays wars are won by them or at least... the heavy lifting is done by them. You seem to be admitting this by saying that real fluff and jabo work and real field capture is now pointless. I agree with you... I think anyone who doesn't see how much they have ruined the game (suicide building battlers) is probly kidding themselves.
but... I didn't just sit back.. I was the person who suggested perking bombs over 100lbs for jabo... I suggested revetments instead of fighter hangers ... I suggested 50% or more fuel till all the buildings were down (what, they don't have fuel in them hangers?).
It's a complex problem... HT hisself was perplexed by it and recognized the problem... He suggested some sort of delay for bombs that they didn't damage till it was apparent the suicider had survived...
ccvi... don't worry about it... most of us are laughing at the strat guys on their hamster wheel of mediocrity.
OIO... maybe you will make a map that suits everyone but...
I doubt it... first off... I don't think you know what a furball is. I think that is the problem with all the guys making maps except the developer.. admittedly... Us furballers are a lazy lot... not prone to doing the work needed to make a map but you strat guys are pretty self serving when it comes to map design. wheather by choice or ignorance I couldn't, and wouldn't say.
lazs
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Lazs, I appologize for seeming(being) so hostile in that post, just so used to seeing people being flamed for reasonable suggestions or observations i had my defense up..
Suicide dweebs do have the biggest effect (WAY too big) and that's something I'de rather not see. I hate climbing to 15k just too see there's only a fuel bunker left, it makes me... it makes me drop ord on some dirt, drop to 5k just to milk the buff 'interceptors'. Quite frustrating.
Just an off topic observation.. I got bored with the steamrolling so bombed an intact field's town. Jamusta (my squaddie) tagged along in a YakU and kept the one or two people that upped busy while i RTBed, he brought em back.. a 109G10 and a Zeke.. So, i grabbed my Hurri, met em out of the ack, and had quite a bit of fun that lasted till the reset and was free of any dweebery, and was rather evenly matched.
Fun :)
(See? I'm much nicer with my defenses off :D )
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Originally posted by lazs2
Face it "strat" guys... you are nothing without the worst element in the game... without the sacrafice of the suicide building battlers and suicide fluffs who do all the heavy lifting for your so called "strat"... you would be dong nothing except trying to belittle a bunch of guys into steamrollering a undefended or lightly defended field..
That is why any suggestion to negate the overbalanced effect they have is met with such resistance by the "strat" guys... you pretend to abhor the suicide dweebs but you, in fact, depend on them for your gameplay... before the huge influx of low or no talent newbie suicide boyz... you had no real momentum
The only thing furballers depend on is a place for it to happen.
lazs
....ya, more helpful insight from Laz :rolleyes:
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I enjoy field capture, and the battles/fights that arise out of such initiatives - both offensive and defensive. It is clear that Lazs does not like the suicide pork & auger, and neither do I. That's why I eagerly await AH2, which will provide a straightforward answer to the problem. But to try to stop suicide P&A in an arena designed for furballing is anything but straightforward, and that's why we see all these calls to "experiment" with object "hardness", and apply other "nudges". I like the thought of that even less than the fragfest we have now. I've seen such game tweaking applied in WB and believe me, it's the road to disaster, and was a key reason for my departure from that game.
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HT doesn't do the wheel-0-settings thing like WB.. whatever they change will be announced and will be left in place for a very long time. All hardness settings are suspect and have some allowance for gameplay except.... Air combat.
GV's have unkillable guys standing out in the open blasting away with a .30 cal mg... bombs have no blast radius.. buildings are either all up or all down. Fluffs have a crew off 30 replaced by a single player who can levitate out of his plane for a gods eye view of the action.
All the strat elements are gamey and phony. Most realize this. Some live with it... some embrace it. and some... simply have as little to do with it as possible.
perking bombs over 100 lbs for jabo would not effect hardness settings.
lazs
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lazs ...
Bombs DO have a blast radius ... I have seen other GVs blow up from bombs hitting in close proximity to the GV.
Perking bombs would ruin the game for more people than the current Pork & Auger impact.
Besides, what pool would the perks come from? Way too much programming and restructuring of the perk system to think that HT would even consider that solution anytime in the near future.
Let's think of solutions that can be implemented within the current structure of the game ... like in the other thread ...
Hardened fuel bunkers ...
More fuel bunkers ...
MORE mannable ack ...
blah ... blah ... blah ...
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Originally posted by lazs2
rut... I don't think we are that far off in agreeing (was that witty enough?). You abhor the suicide dweebs. I am not calling you a liar but point out thatmost of todays wars are won by them or at least... the heavy lifting is done by them. You seem to be admitting this by saying that real fluff and jabo work and real field capture is now pointless. I agree with you... I think anyone who doesn't see how much they have ruined the game (suicide building battlers) is probly kidding themselves.
but... I didn't just sit back.. I was the person who suggested perking bombs over 100lbs for jabo... I suggested revetments instead of fighter hangers ... I suggested 50% or more fuel till all the buildings were down (what, they don't have fuel in them hangers?).
It's a complex problem... HT hisself was perplexed by it and recognized the problem... He suggested some sort of delay for bombs that they didn't damage till it was apparent the suicider had survived...
I can certainly agreee with the suicide jabo man is wrecking the game. I have raised th point before, a group of 20 p51's w eggs and rockets , coming into a base at 15k is undefensable 99% of the time. It is foolish to try to up and intercept them unless u get ample warning that they are coming. Whcih is nearly impossible.
I think if the damage the attacker has done was undone as soon as he died or bailed or ditched, it would balance things out a great deal. This goes for bombers also. This would immedialty make the suicide man obselete, and would be interesting to see what direction the game would take.
Game concessions are necessary, but a country would not send a squadron of fighters to a probable death if they had a limited number of them.
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"I think if the damage the attacker has done was undone as soon as he died or bailed or ditched, it would balance things out a great deal."
Do you have any idea what effort coding that would be, nevermind the caching of data involved.
500+ people having each sortie data cached until the sortie ended ... your talkin BIG iron here and I don't think that HTC will be putting any down-payments for that type of hardware anytime soon.
Its so easy to think of ideas and solutions, but you also have to think of the coding effort and hardware that would be involved to bring it to reality.
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Furballing is fun
Jabo runs are fun if you make it through the ack
I suck at bomb runs over 500 feet :) can't figure out the dammmm bombsight thingy, usually eggs hit about 600 mile from where I thght they were gonna go lol
GV' ng is fun as long as no one is shooting back at me, I must have a large red target on my tank as I drive cuz I always die ,
But, I gotta admit, the most fun I had in a long time was a couple nights ago when I upped a osti at V6 for defense and there were about 20 peeps in gv's defending
We were all laffing our arses off as typhs, 17's, lanc's ponies, p-38's were innin and the sky looked like 100 guns were firing at em,
was a different nite for me, as I rarely gv, but was fun in a different way for me.
My point is, this game allows you to find your fun in many ways, and everyone has the option to do as they please...
NwBie
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Lazs, here's the way I see the map design when I said "I think that the biggest issue with furball vs strat is the map layouts. Right now all maps in the MA actively encourage, if not outright demand, furballing as the means to capture fields."
First some definitions so we dont get confused:
Furball: Clouds of planes engaged in shooting each other down in area less than 1/4th of a sector. Usually over or near or in between fields, their purpose is to shoot down other planes as primary objective, field capture or field porking is 2nd in their list..which means that once they manage to furball OVER the field and kill the acks, they set up a vulch.
The Furball is easily identified by seeing masses of green and red icons of all plane types (vast majority being spits, n1ks and la7's) engaged in a free for all melee at all altitudes (although most of them are below 10k). Its the lone wolf/quake arena gameplay: take off, shoot others down before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care.
Strat: Fighters and Bombers that fly with specific purpose of destroying infrastructure (which includes airfields) that will help "win" the map. Aerial dogfighting is 2nd in their list (fighters being either jabo or escorts).
The strat is easily identified as seeing large amounts of red cons of the same type (for the most part, aka b17s with P51 escorts) that are flying towards a field or factory, its the "historically oriented" gameplay: take off with others in group, each plane type with a specific duty, fly to target, accomplish mission (bomb or escort), return home.
Please note the suicide junkies infect both types of play.
Now, the field layout and map layout is made so that furballing is the de-facto means to move the map, not strat.
All MA maps now have fields with less than a sector apart, which unavoidably result in furballs between them, and its not until 1 side "pushes" the other side over a field and vulch it that the furball ends.. but WAIT! The side that is getting vulched has one or MORE fields less than a sector away! So it doesnt matter if that field is captured or not, theres alway another furball coming up.
Now, the strat players oth, are presented with a HUGE list of "targets". Mostly fields less than 1 sector apart. And unavoidably, that fact alone makes "strategic" destruction or porking of airfields to be rather useless since it wont hamper the other side's ability to fight since by the time the strat players bomb and RTB, whatever they destroyed is BACK UP (especially true in HQ/factories).
And thus, it has become an unspoken alliance between strat and furballers: strat does most of the field porking and keeps fuel down in surrounding fields so enemy fighters dont last long IN A FURBALL, and the furballers take care of swarming the field and keeping the enemy down so another strat player or good samaritan flies a goon in. But for all practical purposes, the strat players affect the map very little since the furballers themselves, given enough time (say, an hour furballing over a field), will eventually pork the field and grow tired of flying in the same place and take up goons and capture it. Compared to the, say, 15 minutes it takes a couple of strat players porking the field and town while furballers furball over it, and then fly a goon in.
Now, to give you an idea of what I think a "balanced" map layout is in IMO; the version of trinity im working on has LARGE airfields spread over 4 sectors apart from each other, and theres lots of vehicle fields in between. This map is to be moved by ground forces supported/protected by aircraft, and eventually airfields themselves will come under fire by ground forces and their supporting aircraft.
The Vbases will launch vehicles as well as BOMBER/ATTACKER aircraft (Il2,Stuka,A20,Boston) and will also launch fighters that have little or no ground attack capability to provide air umbrella support for the ground units & bomber/attacker craft (aka La5, Macchi's, Ki61, 109e/f/g2, 190a5, P40s, 110c4, spit1/hurri1, f4u1, yak9u,zeroe's).
The large aifields will launch all planes, making them vital targets for strat-bombing, it makes factories and supply trains be even more vital to attack since there's so few airfields they resupply (every cargo counts), vbases will be under attack from both ground and air..and air attacks come from the vbases themselves (ground monkeys or furball monkeys) and from the large airfields (launching fighter/attackers like p38s and bombers to help move the front line faster).
This kind of map setup, I believe, will allow the furballers to do what they love: furball from the vfields, it even allows for the vehicle lovers to sally forth in their armed buggies, and the strat players finally get the chance to make an impact on the resources of the game and on moving/defending the front line.
And the suicide dweebs? Hah! I dont think flying 6 sectors or more to suicide will be appealing... not to mention that suiciding on planes taken out of Vbases will be an excercise in frustration thanks to the flaktanks :D :D
Carriers will also have their little wars and D-day beach invasions (towns at "running" distance of troops when dropped at the beach from LVTs... imagine the fun of vbases defending beachside property by having to mow down the hordes of running grunts :D :D )
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Sounds like a great layout OIO.
One thing I did not understand.
The V-bases, will launch aircraft with limited or no ground attack capability. Would'nt it make sense to do the opposite, as these A/C would be the front line A/C for providing air support for the ground toops, while the umbrella would come from another field consisting of Air superiority A/C?
Just a query.
Thanks for your efforts.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"I think if the damage the attacker has done was undone as soon as he died or bailed or ditched, it would balance things out a great deal."
Do you have any idea what effort coding that would be, nevermind the caching of data involved.
500+ people having each sortie data cached until the sortie ended ... your talkin BIG iron here and I don't think that HTC will be putting any down-payments for that type of hardware anytime soon.
Its so easy to think of ideas and solutions, but you also have to think of the coding effort and hardware that would be involved to bring it to reality.
I cant argue here, I will assume your a technician, and I know I am not. But isnt everybodys data cached already? From a simpletons mind, it would seem, if HTC were to try to implement this, that it would just be a matter of reducing the regen time for the affected strat. Since you get perk pionts based on the damage you do, I have to assume that this data is 'cached' anyway, to compute the points awarded. As a matter of fact, if a guy lands successfully, there would be no change at all.
It may be tedious to try to assign each individual strat changing regen values, but as long as it affected the particular fiedl, it really wouldnt matter.
But thats really our job as plyers to throw up goofy ideas and let the guys who do the keypunching figure out if and how and when.
I myself am all for a much simpler solution, to make the auto ack at an airbase just as vicious as a fleets auto ack. That way, mre times than not,he is killed before he can cause any damage at all.
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Neg muck, if I allowed fighter-attackers to launch from vbases the ground vehicles will have very little chance. If you notice, the planes in the vbase list have little or no cannons and no rockets or big bombs. Neither could I include hispano or quad-cannon or heavy caliber cannon planes (spit, tiffie, n1k,40mm hurri,109's with 30mm) because they would just become GV-strafers..which would really hurt the ground players and provide nothing but snapshot-killing sprayfests.
OTH, if the cannon planes had to fly 1 sector to support their frontline, itd make them a bit less likely to go after ground vehicles..especially with the loads of m16s and flaks.
In essence, only the vbase aircraft dont get penalized for dying from the groundfire since they can re-up and furball again.
Please note that Vbases launch FIGHTERS with little or no ground attack capability, but they also launch Bomber-Attackers (IL2, Stuka, A20) which are quite capable of making a mess of gv's..
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Originally posted by OIO
Lazs, here's the way I see the map design when I said "I think that the biggest issue with furball vs strat is the map layouts. Right now all maps in the MA actively encourage, if not outright demand, furballing as the means to capture fields."
First some definitions so we dont get confused:
Furball: Clouds of planes engaged in shooting each other down in area less than 1/4th of a sector. Usually over or near or in between fields, their purpose is to shoot down other planes as primary objective, field capture or field porking is 2nd in their list..which means that once they manage to furball OVER the field and kill the acks, they set up a vulch.
The Furball is easily identified by seeing masses of green and red icons of all plane types (vast majority being spits, n1ks and la7's) engaged in a free for all melee at all altitudes (although most of them are below 10k). Its the lone wolf/quake arena gameplay: take off, shoot others down before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care.
Strat: Fighters and Bombers that fly with specific purpose of destroying infrastructure (which includes airfields) that will help "win" the map. Aerial dogfighting is 2nd in their list (fighters being either jabo or escorts).
The strat is easily identified as seeing large amounts of red cons of the same type (for the most part, aka b17s with P51 escorts) that are flying towards a field or factory, its the "historically oriented" gameplay: take off with others in group, each plane type with a specific duty, fly to target, accomplish mission (bomb or escort), return home.
Please note the suicide junkies infect both types of play.
Now, the field layout and map layout is made so that furballing is the de-facto means to move the map, not strat.
All MA maps now have fields with less than a sector apart, which unavoidably result in furballs between them, and its not until 1 side "pushes" the other side over a field and vulch it that the furball ends.. but WAIT! The side that is getting vulched has one or MORE fields less than a sector away! So it doesnt matter if that field is captured or not, theres alway another furball coming up.
Now, the strat players oth, are presented with a HUGE list of "targets". Mostly fields less than 1 sector apart. And unavoidably, that fact alone makes "strategic" destruction or porking of airfields to be rather useless since it wont hamper the other side's ability to fight since by the time the strat players bomb and RTB, whatever they destroyed is BACK UP (especially true in HQ/factories).
And thus, it has become an unspoken alliance between strat and furballers: strat does most of the field porking and keeps fuel down in surrounding fields so enemy fighters dont last long IN A FURBALL, and the furballers take care of swarming the field and keeping the enemy down so another strat player or good samaritan flies a goon in. But for all practical purposes, the strat players affect the map very little since the furballers themselves, given enough time (say, an hour furballing over a field), will eventually pork the field and grow tired of flying in the same place and take up goons and capture it. Compared to the, say, 15 minutes it takes a couple of strat players porking the field and town while furballers furball over it, and then fly a goon in.
Now, to give you an idea of what I think a "balanced" map layout is in IMO; the version of trinity im working on has LARGE airfields spread over 4 sectors apart from each other, and theres lots of vehicle fields in between. This map is to be moved by ground forces supported/protected by aircraft, and eventually airfields themselves will come under fire by ground forces and their supporting aircraft.
The Vbases will launch vehicles as well as BOMBER/ATTACKER aircraft (Il2,Stuka,A20,Boston) and will also launch fighters that have little or no ground attack capability to provide air umbrella support for the ground units & bomber/attacker craft (aka La5, Macchi's, Ki61, 109e/f/g2, 190a5, P40s, 110c4, spit1/hurri1, f4u1, yak9u,zeroe's).
The large aifields will launch all planes, making them vital targets for strat-bombing, it makes factories and supply trains be even more vital to attack since there's so few airfields they resupply (every cargo counts), vbases will be under attack from both ground and air..and air attacks come from the vbases themselves (ground monkeys or furball monkeys) and from the large airfields (launching fighter/attackers like p38s and bombers to help move the front line faster).
This kind of map setup, I believe, will allow the furballers to do what they love: furball from the vfields, it even allows for the vehicle lovers to sally forth in their armed buggies, and the strat players finally get the chance to make an impact on the resources of the game and on moving/defending the front line.
And the suicide dweebs? Hah! I dont think flying 6 sectors or more to suicide will be appealing... not to mention that suiciding on planes taken out of Vbases will be an excercise in frustration thanks to the flaktanks :D :D
Carriers will also have their little wars and D-day beach invasions (towns at "running" distance of troops when dropped at the beach from LVTs... imagine the fun of vbases defending beachside property by having to mow down the hordes of running grunts :D :D )
Furballin' is no more "quake" like than stratin'.
To use your description, "take off, shoot others down before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care" and apply this one to strat, "take off, blow stuff up before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care".
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yes apache, but there is a vast difference between a bomber flying for 30 mins to bomb and then not caring to rtb (i know most dont..i dont), or fighter-attackers that fly for more than 1 sector (in my map at least) to drop ord and then go and furball (or if they not furball type people, rtb!) to those that up a fighter, climb for... 20 seconds, and start shooting. repeat ad nauseum.
I use the word "quake" because its an analogy to the furball mindset: shoot shoot shoot shoot kill , die, repeat, no other purpose to do this other than short-term fun and no commitment or interest in winning the map. You can hardly say that is the case for a buff driver or someone that flew more than 1 sector with ordenance and in danger of being intercepted by vbase planes or planes from airfields.
:)
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Sorry OIO, I don't see it that way at all. You are assuming an intent based on outcome.
I'll stop here, after your rebuttal if you choose of course. Don't want to hijack with another vs. thread.
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"But isnt everybodys data cached already?"
Not knowing HT's code or architecture with intimacy, I would have to say that there has to be some caching going on, but would think that it is very minimal and would most likely be summarized data and not all the detail.
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OIO... I disagree on your idea that the current maps are "furball oriented" they are suicide jabo oriented and fuel oriented...
Having the fields far apart makes for what you may consider a "furball" but not what I consider one... What we have now are 30 guys attacking and 4 defending.. that is a lot of planes in the air in a mass but not a furball by any stretch of the imagination.... see a cv fight or the current ct setup for what a real furball is... A real furball is an equal or nearly equal number of players on each side meeting somewher between two close fields.. both sides have a chance of RTB after mixing it up.
the fuel can be porked way to easily by jabos with the current far fields setup.
having said that... If you are advocating turning GV fields into airfields (how would they get fuel etc?) that would in effect make...
closer fields.. great idea.
lazs
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You and I have the same concept of what a "furball" is then Lazs. :)
Now, consider that the one reason players go after fuel using suicide jabo is because the fields are too close: The travel time is too short and "sufferable" in repeated attempts.
Im not very good using the terrain editor yet, I do not know if its possible to tie a Vfield's fuel resources to the strat resources (making bombing of fuel refinery be a major thing). If not then ill just make them so hard that it would take 5k lbs to blow a fuel tank or hide the fuel tanks inside unkillable hangars (*grin*) or something.
"current far fields setup"
:confused: they are barely .8 sectors apart. A heavy plane needs only climb to 5k and fly less than 10 minutes to get to target. Even less than 10 minutes if they go NOE. Not to mention they take 50% fuel only as well.
"closer fields" will get you an amplified version of the CT Okinawa. But with 300 people instead of just 40 at a time and using the whole planeset. You wont get any kind of dogfighting in that setup in the MA, you will only get the net's biggest Jousting Simulator.. HO'ing will be utterly rampant. Thats what you want? :confused: :eek:
Apache: "intent based on outcome"? elaborate pls?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"But isnt everybodys data cached already?"
Not knowing HT's code or architecture with intimacy, I would have to say that there has to be some caching going on, but would think that it is very minimal and would most likely be summarized data and not all the detail.
Well, probably niether of us really know enuff to speak about the technical possibibility of it.
I still think a blistering airbase and town auto defense would solve alot of the suicide- swarm- vultch thing that we are all either forced to particiape in or be a victim of. It take s a heck of alot of suicid attakcers to kill a fleet. I think a similar tyoe of airbase defense would force some 'bodywork' before the haymakers to the head start to fly.
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OIO... no... it seems that we don't agree on what a furball is.
the worlds largest jousting tourny and the okinawa setup are exactly what I want. HO's ??? Who does ho's except guys that like to lose fights 50% or more of the time? furballers do HO"s as a last resort in a good fur. I don't think you know what a furball is yet.
10 minutes flight to find that there is no fight? yeah that is fun.. or that the fight is nothing but a vultch fest or the "bar" is just a bunch of osties milling around? that fun to you? then ya gotta fly back.... you can't auger or ditch cause it will give someone the kill who doesn't deserve it.
No.. the reason porking the fuel is so attractive is because the fields ARE so far apart... mostly more than a sector apart in the big maps... make a lot of the fields .7 of a sector apart and I won't care that much about 25% fuel.
I would like to see a list of what you consider planes that wouldnt be allowed. seems simpler to just not allow ordinace supplied at those fields.
lazs
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Well, probably niether of us really know enuff to speak about the technical possibibility of it.
I still think a blistering airbase and town auto defense would solve alot of the suicide- swarm- vultch thing that we are all either forced to particiape in or be a victim of. It take s a heck of alot of suicid attakcers to kill a fleet. I think a similar tyoe of airbase defense would force some 'bodywork' before the haymakers to the head start to fly.
One question: what do you think is KILLING the "suicide dweebs"?? The ack. The defenders. Occasionally, the ground.
If the attacker dying in the attempt is so hard to accept, why make it easier for them to die--or harder to survive, take your pick?
Is this just another way of trying to make it harder to take a field so that the furball is not disturbed?
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Originally posted by lazs2
OIO... no... it seems that we don't agree on what a furball is.
the worlds largest jousting tourny and the okinawa setup are exactly what I want. HO's ??? Who does ho's except guys that like to lose fights 50% or more of the time? furballers do HO"s as a last resort in a good fur. I don't think you know what a furball is yet.
10 minutes flight to find that there is no fight? yeah that is fun.. or that the fight is nothing but a vultch fest or the "bar" is just a bunch of osties milling around? that fun to you? then ya gotta fly back.... you can't auger or ditch cause it will give someone the kill who doesn't deserve it.
No.. the reason porking the fuel is so attractive is because the fields ARE so far apart... mostly more than a sector apart in the big maps... make a lot of the fields .7 of a sector apart and I won't care that much about 25% fuel.
I would like to see a list of what you consider planes that wouldnt be allowed. seems simpler to just not allow ordinace supplied at those fields.
lazs
So there it is. Lassie wants jousting. No nasty ten minute flights to find thumb candy. Can you say "QUAKE"? Sure. I knew you could.
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laz if you can't make what a furball is plain after all your discussion hang it up.
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Yeah... I would think everyone would know what I, and the other furballers, consider a good furball by now but... new guys like hubert allways pop up... guys like beetle and OIO.. will tell me that they know what I want and then describe the exact oppossite of what I want.
hubert... the 10 minutes to the fight is abhorant but not entirely the end of the world... the problem is that the 10 minute flight allows... no, makes certain that what looked like ideal furball conditions upon departure.... become nothing but a gangbang or a waste of time ... when you are here longer and have tried both close and far fields for a while you will be able to see the difference.
lazs
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Lazs,
Save us any doubt. Make a film of what you consider to be an ideal sortie, and post here. If you can't post, let me know and you can email it to me, and I will host it for you.
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Originally posted by rshubert
One question: what do you think is KILLING the "suicide dweebs"?? The ack. The defenders. Occasionally, the ground.
If the attacker dying in the attempt is so hard to accept, why make it easier for them to die--or harder to survive, take your pick?
Is this just another way of trying to make it harder to take a field so that the furball is not disturbed?
No. I am a bomber guy. Airbase ack is a joke.
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I think hooligan has some good ones on his site. I never seem to record much but he might have some. Most of us consider a fight with numbers in the dozen or more... pretty even for each side... everyone participating.... low alt or ending at low alt... good furballs.. If I get a couple of kills great... if not I will die.. I feel pretty good if I get say four kills in a massive fur and return to base with the whole thing from liftoff to touchdown taking say... 6-10 minutes. More time is ok if the fights are good and I have to make it home shot up with guys on my tail.. I like to be about out of fuel and ammo at the same time.. mostly ammo for me tho..
A 7 minute sortie with 4 or more kills,No fuel, no ammo and half the planes parts missing and belly landing on the runway is the best tho
lazs
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and hubert... if you made the ack manable with quad fifties then you would kill the dweebs before they could kill a building or fuel... that would be the point.
The fluffs would then be usefull to carpet bomb.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
and hubert... if you made the ack manable with quad fifties then you would kill the dweebs before they could kill a building or fuel... that would be the point.
The fluffs would then be usefull to carpet bomb.
lazs
Lazs,
How do feel about Airstarts? I'm serious...not a jab at you.
I'm all for the quad 50's. I like this idea alot. Add 4 to a small, 8 to a med, and 12 to a large field, and make half mannable, and half AI.
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Just alittle sidebar that I found interesting. Far from a scientific experiment but..
It's interesting to see the "time in game" for the respective contributors in the furball/strat arguments.
Looking over last tours "hours" it was interesting.
A strat proponent such as Rshubert spent 101 hours playing ingame.
Lazs on the other hand who likes to furball spent 26 hours ingame..
Jamusta...180 hours...Leviathn 21
Fariz..84...Apache...22
Beet1e..41...nopoop..17
Nah, doesn't mean anything..
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Originally posted by nopoop
Just alittle sidebar that I found interesting. Far from a scientific experiment but..
It's interesting to see the "time in game" for the respective contributors in the furball/strat arguments.
Looking over last tours "hours" it was interesting.
A strat proponent such as Rshubert spent 101 hours playing ingame.
Lazs on the other hand who likes to furball spent 26 hours ingame..
Jamusta...180 hours...Leviathn 21
Fariz..84...Apache...22
Beet1e..41...nopoop..17
Nah, doesn't mean anything..
And one of the most ardent supporters of Strat play...me...
19 hours, 37 mins. What's your point?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
And one of the most ardent supporters of Strat play...me...
19 hours, 37 mins. What's your point?
You need to get a life.
I had over two more hours of a real life than you did.
Do you have any idea what you can do in 2+ hours ????
I spend those extra two hours in a tanning booth..
A far more interesting time stat that would be to see what the average time is per...."time on."
I usually fly 45min to an hour. Doesn't vary much. The little window. The days of 4-6 hour marathons are from the past.
The relationship to time available in a "block" to the form of play is what interests me. But no real way to gather that information.
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Originally posted by nopoop
You need to get a life.
I had over two more hours of a real life than you did.
Do you have any idea what you can do in 2+ hours ????
I spend those extra two hours in a tanning booth..
hehe...
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Why would anyone living in CA need to spend time in a tanning booth?
:confused:
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Lazs, you did not describe your idea of a furball as being take-off and start HO'ing the cons at 500ft. You said it was "...an equal or nearly equal number of players on each side meeting somewher between two close fields.. both sides have a chance of RTB after mixing it up".
Your 3 requirements:
1) equal or almost equal number of players on each side
2) meeting between 2 close fields
3) chance to rtb after mixing it up
cannot be met if fields are half a sector or less apart.
#1 in the MA does not happen, especially on 3-sided war, you will literally be always outnumbered 2:1 if all 3 sides have equal numbers.
#2 The meeting part near 2 close fields (it'd be more realistic to say 3 fields) would mean concentrating a large number of planes in an area that they cannot possibly be able to get altitude to fight.. unless you fly the other direction, climb and come around.. which is no different from taking off from a rear field in the first place (aka, strat player's modus operandi). So you will definetely get a jousting tournament at less than 5k alt (and thats being generous). while being outnumbered 2:1 in a 3-field, 3-sided war enviroment. So this requirement of yours can be met, but it conflicts between the other 2 because of said 2:1 ration in 3-sided war.
#3 Jousting and RTBing are almost exclusive of each other. Add to it a 2:1 odds against you in 3 sided war and your chances of RTBing are minimal.
Not to mention that if its dogfighting or even a hint of ACM that you're looking for in these furballs, you wont find any in the jousting setup, as you will very likely take off (if you arent vulched) and have to start turning vs opponents after you raise gears.
Im just trying to get a sense of what the heck you want in the game. Im trying to make my map work for both gameplay styles, you are my research subject! Speak up :)
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Originally posted by najdorf
Also, I think dogfiting is a more difficult and rewarding aspect of the game than level bombing, JABO, or base capture. I do those things as a change of pace or when I'm up on squad nite and that's the mission. I enjoy it, but, it ain't dogfitin'.
I sometimes find ground attack sorties to be just as challenging and sometimes even more than dogfighting. Try fighting your way to the target fully loaded with ordinance, attack the target that's crawling with field AAA and flak panzies, destroy your target and exit out without getting a scratch and just to piss of the flak panzies that are all over the field, vulch a few planes while the flak panzies try to shoot you down.
It pretty much just boils down to what floats your boat. Some like just dogfighting, some just like strat/A2G and some others like both. Doesn't mean one is less skilled or it's less fun than the other.
Ack-Ack
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OIO... you really do not know what I am talking about.
1.. equal or about equal numbers do exist in furballs between close fields or cv's believe me or ask anyone who has participated in okinawa or other type events in the CT... even if the numbers are lopsided somewhat, 5/3 say, it matters LESS in a furball than in spread out combat between large distances.
2...alt... who cares if you furball? I spend 99% of my time below 5K.. if anyone wants to kill me they have to come down to do it no big deal. they can't hurt me with a bunch of stored energy up there. anyone who didn't want to participate in the furball could take off from a farther field and get all the friggin alt that made him feel secure. In this current "challenge" I am flying every fighter in the sert and not exceeding 6k or less than 5 K/hour and killing at least one plane and landing the kill in each.
3... you have no clue. I am very aggressive (i know, hard to believe eh?) and... I run a 4 or 5 to one K/D. It would be more if I had a chance of dissengaging in my slow planes and RTB... jousting is the fun but surviving such a joust is really neat. I like to average about 10 kills per hour or more and RTB or ditch.
so... trying to figure this out... are you for or against more close fields? If you leave out close fields then you are defacto forcing people to fly a certain timid way and to allways use the fastest and biggest armed planes... planes they can grab alt... wait for a cherry to pick and then run away in... forceing people to gangbang or be gangbanged.
I have no interest in any map you would build that had fields more than a sector apart. please don't say it "has something for everyone" if you do... at least be honest about it.
lazs
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1.. Okinawa and all CT events are 2 sided war, not 3 sided. Im talking about the MA. You seem to constantly ignore this.
2.. read my 2nd point again. This requirement of yours was met, but it does not work with the other 2 because of the 3 sided issue. If you have 3 fields within visual distance of each other (a-la okinawa) launching planes, you will never have "equal or close to equal numbers" and to boot it will end up being a race to spray the most cannon in the air.
3..You may like jousting, but not everyone likes it. Which brings up the last part, which I can use your own words:
"...If you leave out close fields then you are defacto forcing people to fly a certain way (jousting) and to allways use the fastest and biggest armed planes... planes they can turn the best... (read:spit,n1k,la7,tiffie) wait for a snapshot or HO joust and repeat till they die... forcing people to gangbang or be gangbanged. (this last part is hilarious since furballs ARE gangbangs)"
Try to reply without that attitude please, it gets you nowhere really fast.
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OIO... you seriously have never been in a furball in the MA have you? I used the CT as an example but... the MA has some fields that are about what I have suggested distance wise.. it also has cv battles that are in effect close fields...
Those fights are the best furballs... everyone meets somewhere in the middle to attack or defend and the fight moves back and forth.... sometimes one side has more numbers sometimes the other but it matters not since you can only be concerned with the clump you are trying your best to keep track of.
2...how do you figure? you won't allways be in sight of two different countries fields and even if you are... how does that guarentee that you will be fighting both? just because they are both red does not mean that they will ignore each other and go after you... that is silly... as for the alt... who cares? why do you care what alt the fight is at??? if you want to enter with alt... do it.. if not... don't.. what's the big deal? Only the very forward fields will be 3 country anyway... otherwise it is essentially a two country war.
3.. Who cares if not everyone likes jousting... they have CHOICE they can go somewhere else... someplace that appreciates them with some real "strat" value. the rest of your reply is drivel and missquote or missunderstand. It appears that a map by you would be worthless to me.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
... the whole thing from liftoff to touchdown taking say... 6-10 minutes. More time is ok if the fights are good and I have to make it home shot up with guys on my tail.. I like to be about out of fuel and ammo at the same time.. mostly ammo for me tho..
Why do you complain about fuel beeing porked then? If you want to run out of fuel after 10 minutes you can't take much more than 25% anyway.
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Another thought...
when it happens that I'm flying below 5k fighting, I usually read a names I have never read before - either a completely different culture or maybe just new players. If the latter is true, I think this is why lasz likes flying down there...
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ccvi... note I said that I run out of ammo first and that I am "about" out of fuel... I like close fights that 25% is allmost enough but they rarely happen. Man... find me, build me, an MA where you could allways find a good furball with 25% fuel and I would love it.
As for different culture... maybe. the guys that fly at 15k or more certainly are a different "culture" as you say... on the rare times (bored witless) that i climb up to em I notice that they are very ah... timid. They act like anything close to an enemy getting an energy equal is cause for running away... ya gotta fool em into thiniking they still have a huge advantage.... If they bother to fight.. they die..
contrast this to the low guys who allmost allways give you a decent fight.
It's allmost like every newbie heard "alt is life" and believed it.
lazs
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I've enjoyed reading the posts in this thread, but it's starting to get tedious, with the same old material being recycled.
Buh Bye.
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There are mindless furballs where two sides meet in a cluster for no other reason than to fight. There are semi-furballs where the enemy meet somewhere between two bases as they attempt to attack the other base. Then there are the non-furballs where one intercepts an attack inbound. The former usually has a static location, and the latter can happen anywhere, between any two bases, or right over a base. The former IMHO can get boring real quick, and the latter keep me entertained all night. It can't be pinned down, and each is a valid play style.
There always are a number of cherry pickers in a furball. But these folks are missing out on the intense fight going on below. Many scout the edges for easy prey. Others swoop into the midst of the battle and zoom back out to safety. I generally doubt many who carry a respectable kill ratio actually wade into the action often.
Very seldom have I seen a three country furball. These can only happen in select locations. But maybe I just don't fly there.
There is a problem with numbers in furballs. mostly the type where sides are trying to attack the other base. Though the fight may start relatively even, in time one side or the other will call in additional players for help. Or players join in as they find out where the fight is. Often it turns into a mass attack on the other base, and the fun is over. I fear this is aggravated by the "pork the arena" mentality.
All types of game play are great if those playing are having fun. IMO, the only time it becomes an issue is when they interfere with each other... it's like playing baseball and football on the same field.
BTW, WTG Bish on your lame reset yesterday >=oP