Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve on June 02, 2003, 11:07:05 PM
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It is the worst part of an otherwise excellent game. That they don't do something to make it better is a source of frustration for me.
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Its not my fault you collided with my cannon fire...hehe
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I agree Steve, it dont seem to be consistant, last week I wrecked 3 times in a hour and thismorning I flew right through a plane like he was my drone and he died and I had no damage. I would like to see the gunery changed alittle, getting kills 800 900 yards dont seem right. When I watch them old ww2 films seems there alot closer than 800 yards out. Ive seen discusions about this but its just my opinon. Thats what makes this game feel gamey to me.
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I disagree.
I think killshooter/killbomber is the worst.
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Since we can't all play on the same computer. What else can they do? I think its fair considering lag and what they have to deal with.
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Me likey killshooter, killbomber, and the collision code. They're perfect solutions to an imperfect world.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Ya, the killshooter thing is horrible too.. I really enjoy playing the game, but either of these things rearing an ugly head quickly detracts from my pleasure.
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Think of an alternative then and suggest it.
Of course you may have to learn C++ first and then go get a degree in networking with a minor in aeronautical engineering.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
Think of an alternative then and suggest it.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
They can de-select Killshooter just as they do in CT set ups.
Widewing
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The best way to avoid killshooter is to be sure of your shot. It's like HO's, it takes two.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Steve
It is the worst part of an otherwise excellent game. That they don't do something to make it better is a source of frustration for me.
Do you have an alternative in mind?
For my part, every collision death I suffer is preceded by "oh ****, I'm gonna hit him." Sometimes the guy I hit flies away; sometimes he dies.
In my mind, it is extremely fair for you to die if you see the collision.
Am I missing something here?
curly
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The collision system in AH is the only viable collision system given the time delay inherent in the internet.
I just don't see how you guys have so much trouble with killshooter and collisions. I've been a subscriber since v1.03 and on Sunday last I had my fourth aircraft loss from killshooter. I'm averaging less than two killshooter deaths per year. I collide more often, but it doesn't bother me at all that only I get penalized for my collisions, after all it was on my FE and so only I could see the collision and try to avoid it.
Imagine if you died due to colliding with an aircraft that was 250 yards away from you on your FE. That is what it would look like 50% of the time if both people died when one FE reported a collision. That would frusterate me as I would have died due to something I could not have avoided and had no way of knowing I needed to avoid.
If both FEs must see the collision for the collision to occur there will essentially be no collisions anymore.
Tactics to be derived from this involve things like intentionally flying through the target aircraft while firing as it is impossible to miss from one foot away from the target. This is not a small change and it would not be rare.
Another effect would be the switch to free form manuvering without regard to the proximity of your airframe to the enemies airframe. It would remove one of things that a combat pilot in a close dogfight needed to track from the game.
This kind of change in tactics essentially destroys any and all simulation of real world tactics. The rules have been changed so much that it is no longer a simulation of WWII air combat tactics.
Personally I have no interest in flying in an environment in which the need to avoid collisions is not part of the tactics used.
Killshooter is needed to enforce a semblance of fire disappline. It isn't perfect by anymeans, but at least it forces people to not shoot through their team mates to get kills in a manner totally foreign to WWII air combat.
Keep your SA up in regards to both friendlies and enemies positions and likely headings. It helps avoind both collisions and killshooter, even when a dweeb cuts in front of you.
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Originally posted by Widewing
They can de-select Killshooter just as they do in CT set ups.
Widewing
Ok, and then what do you do about all the SATAN666s and gunman26s who fly around killing friendlies? See it's not just a matter of turning it off, you gotta suggest an alternative.
Why no-one has suggested a killshooter system that merely ignores all damage to friendlies and doesnt redirect it back to the shooter is beyond me.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Don't have a problem with killshooter. On collisions I think it'd be best if both planes went down every time - period. Flame away... ;)
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Hey BNM,
just curious..... why? and how would you respond to Karnak's argument that you could be killed by an enemy ramming you on his FE while on yours you avoided him?
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Originally posted by Karnak
The collision system in AH is the only viable collision system given the time delay inherent in the internet.
This is simply wrong.
There are several viable choices, even given internet lag.
1. No collisions
2. Mutual collisons, determined by one FE saying there was a collision
3. Mutual collisions, only when both FE's agree there was one
4. Mutual collisions, determined by the server
5. Independent collisions, based only on what your FE saw happen. (What AH has now)
Whichever choice you pick is going to have BS associated with it. The question is which one causes the least amount of BS. (And is really mostly a matter of opinion)
IMO having one person die in a collision, and the other going away unscathed is the worst possible scenario short of having no collisions.
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I've been rammed by planes that appeared 150-200 away from me. Don't happen alot but it does. What are you going to do? I get close when firing usually within 250 or so. Many times I have seen the plane warp to behind me then I blow up and he is unharmed. It sucks but that's life. I have a steady cable connect at 60-70, flatline variance. I know it's not my fault, I hope it was n't theirs (intentional). I just think in reality if 2 planes collide they will both go down most of the time, don't you agree?
If a ram occurs from the front it should be visible on both players FE. If you get rammed from the rear, if it wasn't a newb you'd be dead anyway right? So I don't see the problem making all collisions have the same effect on both planes. I personally wouldn't care if it was both die, both lose a wingtip, etc... as long as it was the same. IMHO.
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I honestly think Steve is stirring the pot here. He almost consistently gets double-digits kills and with an occasional collision, I find it hard to understand why he would whine about it. A collision last nigth must of pissed him off so he came here to vent. He knows that this has been discussed and debated to death on these boards and it hasn't changed and I don't believe that it will change anytime soon.
If people whine about collisions now, take into consideration Karnak's scenario ...
"Imagine if you died due to colliding with an aircraft that was 250 yards away from you on your FE. That is what it would look like 50% of the time if both people died when one FE reported a collision"
The whine would be DEAFENING !!!
If I died, after doing a nice barrel roll, avoiding a collision on my FE, because your FE reported a collision, I would consider closing my AH account in a heartbeat.
For those that want killshooter turned off ... I'll bet the first time newbie 123890 drops down on your six after you have saddled-up and shoots your bellybutton down trying to shoot the guy you just worked so hard to saddle-up on, you will be back on this BBS instantly asking for it to be turned back on.
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Slapshot..DING!!!!
I indeed collided w/ a guy's 6 after I shredded his plane... on my FE I clearly ducked under his wreck.. yet I received a fatal collision.... thus the vent. :)
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Swoop: because you get yourself an even bigger problem: People shooting through friendly planes.
IMO, a better solution would be to make the pilot BLACK OUT for like 5 seconds if he shoots a friendly plane with more than X bullets..where X is a number of bullets hitting a plane.. X can be like 50 or so, enough to not penalize an accidental killshoot (idiot cutting in front of you and your d200 target), but enough to penalize someone spraying blindly in a furball or purposely going after friendly planes.
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Killshooter has never been a problem for me.
Then again, I won't jump behind a countryman and try to steal his kill.
1 bandit with 1 friendly on the bandit's tail sounds about right to me. I'll stay high and find my own food.
It also helps to check your fire when facing your own runway.
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Originally posted by OIO
Swoop: because you get yourself an even bigger problem: People shooting through friendly planes.
Yup, good point. ;) see what friendly debate brings?
Another point about your X system.......if you're flying a G10 with the 30mm then X probably = >50% of the ammo load. If you're flying a Hurri MkI with 8x303s then X can probably be reached within a 1/4 second burst. A specific X for each gun loadout is neeed....
but I quite like the idea.....
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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i HATE[/b] killshooter, i had 7 kills in a 110G2 and was killing the 8th, some moron dives infront of me, i stop shooting but 1 20mm hits him (i was outta 30's)
there goes my tail, absolute BS.
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Gofaster says:
"Killshooter has never been a problem for me.
Then again, I won't jump behind a countryman and try to steal his kill."
Gofaster, this is not the event most of us are concerned about. I have been killshootered several times when someone has cut in front of me and my bullets are already out of my guns. Then, hit them with even a single .50 round and your whole damned tail falls off.
I've had friendly planes fly THROUGH me, causing me to killshoot.
This is very aggravating
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Not really swoop. It doesnt matter what weapon is being fired.
If I was a griefer in a 109g10 and went on your 6.. it really doesn't matter if I shoot all my 30mm ammo on you and I dont black out, the whole point is: I cant shoot you down.
But OTH, if you were said 109g10 and I flew my griefer spitfire in between you and you d200 target, you would need to empty half you ammo on me before you black out. Either way, you dont get penalized for MY griefing.
Weapons with high refire rate..say the spit1's 303s, would still be hard pressed to put in 50 bullets hitting another plane in an accidental shoot-friendly scenario (50 bullet impacts is like.. 1 second burst? either way its not a "sheet he flew in front of me while I fired and I didnt take the hand off the trigger for 1 whole second" kinda deal...and lets say IF it still hits 50 bullets on accident, whats the penalty? 5 second blackout.. chances are you press autolevel flight and wait the 5 secs.. the moron that jumped in front of you probably killed your target or scared him away.. and if you had a con in your 6..well, you were screwed anyway ;) ).
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Furball (BOO!), it's still an ugly tail.
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what BNM said... i'd like killshooter to affect *both* shooter and shootee...
shootee takes normal damage, shooter takes it as it currently is.
as for collisions... shrug, i think what we have now, while frustrating for those times when it seems the other guy moved into *my* path and i couldn't respond timely to avoid it and eat the ram, is pretty much an acceptable situation. you see it you eat it.
and fess up, there have been times when both of you (all of us) took damage from it, as well as times we came out on the "lucky" end.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Imagine if you died due to colliding with an aircraft that was 250 yards away from you on your FE. That is what it would look like 50% of the time if both people died when one FE reported a collision.
That did happen to me last week. I was chasing someone maneuvering for a shot and at D250-D300 just as I was squeezing the trigger BOOM
Server: you have crashed
Server: SomeBastardWithaPoorConnect shot you down.
Before you start suggesting there was another nme that happened to be on my 6, I verified with the SBWPC that he was the only nme around and he had no damage. I was quite pissed that he flew off with no damage and there was no apparent collision on my FE. I would've been much less pissed if he were damaged as well assuming something somewhere detected a collision as the reason to my demise.
As to the blackout suggestion for killshooter.....It sounds like it has promise. Maybe determine the severity/length of the blackout by how many rounds and what type hit the friendly AC 1 second per .303, 1.5 seconds per .50 ......and so on.
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On collisions, I've had many cases where the other plane seemed to turn into me even though I tried to avoid it. (Of course, more often I just failed to avoid it, in which case I have no complaint.) I know it's hard to collide intentionally, and I understand that if you see it you are the one who can avoid it. But I wonder about slow connects vs broadband. If a person has a slow modem, doesn't he stand a better chance to survive collisions because he will likely get his updates later?
On killshooter. This is one I really don't like, especially when the bogie you were chasing gets a prox kill on you (another AH feature I think sucks). Usually, when you have a friendly in front of you, you can simply hold your shots. But many times a friendly dives down between me and the bogie while I am shooting. And times like when I'm trying to clear someone's six or kill vulchers, I inadvertently hit the friendly. Even a single long range .303 hit, that won't bring down a bogie, will disable or kill me. These things shouldn't happen often, but probably due to Murphy's law, it seems to.
An alternative, besides no damage, that I've seen used is to allow damage to the friendly, but if you kill him (or, in the case I've seen, kill two friendlies in a day) you get penalized by not being able to load any ammo for 24 hours. It was called Personna None Gratta and helped fill the ranks of Goon and M3 drivers.
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About the only time I collide is in a head on, whaddaya expect?
I don't mind killshooter. In fact it comes in handy after someone chases down my wingless or tailess kill trying to exlode them. Next time around, if I time my fly-through of their plane just right, satisfaction. The whining only sweetens the experience. :D
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Ack -Ack:
I disagree, it is too pat an answer to a legitimate concern. I have read similar opinions in here for a long time. Being sure of one's shot does nothing to control what the other guy is gonna do. Two nights ago one of my squad mates damn near got me killed by killshooter; he flew right in front of me, breakin his neck going after the same target as me. I was bearing down on the guy, I was closer, he was behind me but had more E from underneath. He knew what he was doing, and I saw him at the last minute. I had to stop shooting at my target or I would have died. I only saw him at the last moment. In that case I WAS sure of MY shot, I had no idea about HIS shot. However, it does take two; there is a victim and a perp.
I have found inconsistencies with who is the victim and who is the perp in this game, especially where the collision model is concerned. I have been the victim more often than not, and it is without rhyme or reason. A guy will head straight for me and the HO instead of using other acm methods, he will miss, I will register hits, and attempt to drop my nose underneath as we pass, he will hit my plane, I will lose a wing or something, he will continue flying past. Not fair, not accurate in terms of the actual circumstances but...pfft! Thats the game. I read somewhere on these BBs that those who have cable modems are at a disadvantage where collisions are concerned. I don't claim to understand the reason technically but, it seems the speed of the cable modem is more susceptible to being the damagee than the damager.
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>>I just think in reality if 2 planes collide they will both go down most of the time, don't you agree? <<
BNM:
I agree but, it doesn't happen that way a lot of times. What to do about it? Nothing, IMO. This is not my game, I just play it. If HT see's a way that would work for everyone then, at some point I trust he will make some changes. In the meantime, I just re-up and put it behind me.
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The only time killshooter gets me is when someone dives in front of me,or zooms through me from behind when I am already saddled up on an enemy.
Annoying,yes,but needed.
I shudder to think of the constant fragging that would happen if it were turned off.
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Argghhh.
Instead of fragging.... whyt not jusst have the offending bullets just be duds? Kind of how you cannot damage friendly buildings.
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Collision:
No one really likes the current collision model but after much consideration, given the state of the art in computer technology today, I am not able to come up with a better solution. Most collisions are the fault of the person dieing (most but not all). I know that I like many others close to real short ranges and often ( maybe 5%) the killee flips up or side ways or ... whatever way I was moving to avoid the collision and I hit his wreckage anyway. Frustrating? Yes. Realistic? Probably. The others are in front quartering shots, I seldom take a straight head-on if it is avoidable (and it usually is). If the server could keep up with everyone positions real-time, collisions could probably be mutual and some of the other wrapage factors would be eliminated. However that would need a Cray per furball to compute.
Killshooter:
A necessary evil to counteract the juvenile dweeb that "thinks" it is funny to shoot down his teammates. I once proposed no damage (like no friendly collisions) but that would just promote the 30 person conga line (already too prevalant) all firing at the con. The current system is better than most alternatives. Tha being said I would propose that the damage from killshooter be limited to destroying the shooters guns. Then, when someone swoops in front you and you accidently "kill" yourself, only your guns would be damaged. This would frustrate the dweeb and give legitimate players a "chance" to disengage and attempt to rtb.
my two cents' worth - well maybe dime's worth in this case
Phantom4
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Karnak quote:"Killshooter is needed to enforce a semblance of fire disappline. It isn't perfect by anymeans, but at least it forces people to not shoot through their team mates to get kills in a manner totally foreign to WWII air combat. "
And shooting your own tail off is less foreign to WWII air combat?
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"Even a single long range .303 hit, that won't bring down a bogie, will disable or kill me."
LOL ... I was going to suggest to Furball that he fly the Spit V and he won't have that problem.
Those .303s couldn't shoot a goose out of the air with a stream of 50 hits. Three separate sorties last night, all I had were .303s left and lit up an A6M from nose-to-tail, an F6F the same, and an F4U the same too. They all flew off like nothing happened. No smoke - no parts falling off - nada.
I think it was when I was saddled up on the A6M with 700+ rounds when I started lighting him up, my sqaudie Mars01 drops in front of me (its a joke we have goin on - haha) and I layed at least 10+ .303s into him and I flew away with no damage, so I don't agree with the single ping log range .303 hit.
I digress from Steve's vent, cause he really understands the problem and %99.9999999999999 of the time deals with it just like the rest of us, but what is up with those .303s ? I just recently started flying the Spit V and once the cannons are gone, I just RTB. I thought .303s were a pretty deadly round ? NO ?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I digress from Steve's vent, cause he really understands the problem and %99.9999999999999 of the time deals with it just like the rest of us, but what is up with those .303s ? I just recently started flying the Spit V and once the cannons are gone, I just RTB. I thought .303s were a pretty deadly round ? NO ?
Don't give up so soon! You can easily get at least two kills in a Spit V with .303s... and as many as five or six... if you follow a few simple rules.
First of all, get in close. VERY close. I'm talking 100 yards or under. Don't both firing until you're within this range. Second, you need to lay down consistent fire on the same spot. Forget snap shots with the .303s; you're just going to waste ammo, as they really only work well when hitting the same area over a couple of seconds. You can hit different areas with every single round of .303 you have and never damage the enemy plane.
You can best do this by forcing someone into a turning fight, but maintain some speed, get in close, and hold fire until you're certain that you'll continue to hit for at least two seconds. That's typically more than enough to disable or damage enemy fighters, and it only takes about 200-500 rounds of .303 to do it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Thanks Lev ...
I have been landing 3-4-5-6 kills just with the .303s and cannons ... a couple of more would be nice.
All three of those scenarios were just what you described ... real slow and real close.
My mistake was laying the stream across the surface and not in a concentrated spot. Learned real quick that the snapshot is totally useless. Thats why I went with the more concentrated stream from stem-to-stern but I now know different.
But still ... shouldn't the .303s pack a little more punch than what we are seeing ? or does it depend on what I am shooting. I thought the A6M would fall apart rather quickly as compared to the F4U.
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Originally posted by Steve
Karnak quote:"Killshooter is needed to enforce a semblance of fire disappline. It isn't perfect by anymeans, but at least it forces people to not shoot through their team mates to get kills in a manner totally foreign to WWII air combat. "
And shooting your own tail off is less foreign to WWII air combat?
As I said, its not perfect, but it is far better than any of the proposals I've seen.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"Even a single long range .303 hit, that won't bring down a bogie, will disable or kill me."
I think it was when I was saddled up on the A6M with 700+ rounds when I started lighting him up, my sqaudie Mars01 drops in front of me (its a joke we have goin on - haha) and I layed at least 10+ .303s into him and I flew away with no damage, so I don't agree with the single ping log range .303 hit.
True, it was an exageration, but the killshooter lethality seems to be greatly increased over normal hits. I really think it's too extreme.
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I would suggest rather than having ones tail removed...Have the killshooter disable your guns untill you rtb... A death seems a bit harsh to me... As it is not always avoidable or intentional...
just a thiught
Gatr
81st....
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The best way to avoid killshooter is to be sure of your shot. It's like HO's, it takes two.
Ack-Ack
Try dropping a bomb from 15,000+ feet. The drop time is too long to be sure of anything.
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I want them to turn on the friendly collision...at least it would teach a few you can't roll through another plane on the rearm pad, plus you would have to enter the takeoff from either the side of the runway or the hanger. At least they could put that into effect in the CT.........please.
Thorns
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Originally posted by Thorns
I want them to turn on the friendly collision...at least it would teach a few you can't roll through another plane on the rearm pad, plus you would have to enter the takeoff from either the side of the runway or the hanger. At least they could put that into effect in the CT.........please.
Thorns
That sounds good but friendly collisions also involve net-lag too.
Get one of these big BUFF squads like the DHBG that fly really close and accurate BUFF boxes and one guy with a warpy connection would wipe out 60% of the BUFF formation.
Get into one of these big furballs that are going on where things start laggin and some friendly thats warping out to 2.0K in front then warps back to 3.0K behind and he wipes out about 6 peeps then these boards will really be lit up.
Collisions- I can live with the way they are here. I've played others that wingparts, wheel struts , and control surfaces falling around in the sky will damage or kill you.
KillShooter- If I could change it I would leave it just the way it is except no damage is transfered to shooter. Bullets wouldnt pass through allowing the someone behind to shoot thru plane to get a kill.
Griefers would be doing nothing but wasting ammo-would get real boring after awhile.
The one big PRO about kill shooter now is over the shoulder shooters have to be wary, one good jink and his over the shoulder attempt is twarted.
_______________________
Six367th
367th FG
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Originally posted by OIO
Swoop: because you get yourself an even bigger problem: People shooting through friendly planes.
IMO, a better solution would be to make the pilot BLACK OUT for like 5 seconds if he shoots a friendly plane with more than X bullets..where X is a number of bullets hitting a plane.. X can be like 50 or so, enough to not penalize an accidental killshoot (idiot cutting in front of you and your d200 target), but enough to penalize someone spraying blindly in a furball or purposely going after friendly planes.
I know a few hated it but I liked the PNG (Persona Non Grata) system from AW. If you shot more than two friendlies in a 24 hour period when you returned to base and get a new plane, you couldn't take off with any ammo. And if you killed more than two friendlies an additional 24 hours was tacked on to each kill after the 2nd one. So you were basically regulated to Gooney duty if you wanted to fly while PNG. And it worked great in AW Classic but later on in AW2 and AW3, so many spray and pray shooters whined about PNG and it was removed. Too bad, it worked but HiTech I don't think liked it.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I disagree.
I think killshooter/killbomber is the worst.
Golly...I actually agree with Sandman:)
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just put a fraction coeff to KS lethality.
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Killshooter?? I've seen it done both ways in WarBirds. I think you have to have "Killshooter On".
Collisions: Both planes destroyed. Both have to ride 'em or bail.
Radar: Get rid of it! Or decrease it. I think it kills the True Fighter Sortie concept (chance of discovery). Blinking field distances need to be decreased. Blinking fields give the game away.
My $.02,
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Originally posted by Rude
Golly...I actually agree with Sandman:)
I'll be okay. Just take deep breaths, don't make any sudden movements and find something to hold on to until the dizzyness passes.
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Originally posted by SixxGunn
KillShooter- If I could change it I would leave it just the way it is except no damage is transfered to shooter. Bullets wouldnt pass through allowing the someone behind to shoot thru plane to get a kill.
Griefers would be doing nothing but wasting ammo-would get real boring after awhile.
The problem with this, and the reason it unacceptable to the point I would cancel my account, is that it grossly changes WWII air combat tactics if you can shoot through friendlies (sure, some of the rounds are stopped by the friendly aircraft, but most get through to have a chance at the enemy). In reality you simply did not pull the trigger if you thought there was a chance that you'd shoot a friend and if you did and hit your friend an aircraft on your side might be eliminated from the fight.
Even with no ammo an aircraft changes the dynamics of a fight simply by providing one more target and one more potential threat (the enemy doesn't know you're out of ammo) that needs to be tracked.
As it stands killshooter best matches all of the required criteria:
1) It gives pilots serious pause in shooting past friendlies.
2) It can fully eliminate an aircraft from combat due to friendly fire.
3) It stops greifers dead in their tracks.
It fails on two points:
1) The shooter not the shootee is affected. (Due to greifers I see no solution to this)
2) It does not penalize those who willfully and in full knowlege of their invulnerability cut into the path of somebody elses fire.
If somebody can come up with a solution that better fits those criteria more power to them.
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I wonder how it would work if both the shootee and shooter were affected? Maybe something like this?
It succeeds on two points:
1) It gives pilots serious pause in shooting past friendlies.
2) It penalizes those who willfully cut into the path of somebody elses fire.
It might or might not succeed on one point:
1) It seriously hampers griefers, but does not stop the dedicated griefer.
It fails on one point:
1) It can fully eliminate two aircraft from combat.
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--- Grizzly: ---
But I wonder about slow connects vs broadband. If a person has a slow modem, doesn't he stand a better chance to survive collisions because he will likely get his updates later?
--- end ---
No. he will still die ( meaning collide ) just the same. You should remember it's the FE in question that determines wether someone has been involved in a collision.
The fact that some FE has detected a collisions bears no meaning wether another FE detects one. So a person doesn't become involved in a collision without his FE detecting one and that isn't affected by ping times.
Big ping time combined from player A's and B's pings to the host, but note it doesn't matter who has higher or lower ping, means there exists bigger discrepancy what each player sees as their reality. The discrepancy is not constant, one pair of players have a combined ping of 200ms and other have 500ms, Switch pairs and it might be 20ms and 680ms or something else. The point is this is what makes colliding on purpose a roll of dice, you can't know the offset your plane appears on the other FE hence aiming it to someone becomes rather difficult.
A fun addition to AH filmviewer would be the ability view two films synchronized in the same scene. This could be used to view the 2 realities of an 1-on-1 fight from an external vantage point. Personally I just can't figure out how to sync them properly at the start but I guess there would be a way. This sort of visual demonstration should help it to explain to people how big difference there actually exists and why collisions have to be the way they are not, so they maintain consistant results.
// ville
p.s. due to the nature how the filmviewer stores enemy plane positions a collision that happened might appear been a near miss on the film viewer.
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>>it grossly changes WWII air combat tactics if you can shoot through friendlies (sure, some of the rounds are stopped by the friendly aircraft, but most get through to have a chance at the enemy). In reality you simply did not pull the trigger if you thought there was a chance that you'd shoot a friend and if you did and hit your friend an aircraft on your side might be eliminated from the fight.<<
What is ironic about this argument is the fact that, arena flying/fights and tactics,don't resemble WWII tactics/actions/attitudes at all.
Take Head Ons for example. While a head on approach was used, it wasn't the first thing they used, because it was dangerious due to the rate of closure. Yet, in AH the head on is used by far too many players, and use of acm seems a distant thing of the past.
Shooting at an nme a/c did not involve (from what I have read) conga lines of guys breaking their necks to get a kill or to steal a kill; it does occur in the MA all the time.
So in AH we have a certain way the game is played, which includes all of the things that did not occur in WWII, and have a profound affect on the way the game is played. As a result, we have a high rate of collisions, and deaths due to killshooter. Whether one flies that way or not, in the AH-MA environment these things are gonna happen because a large majority of pilits fly in ways that increase the incidence of these things ocurring.
Unless a miraculous change occurs and dweebdom is forever expelled from the game, we are gonna have these things. Therefore, the collisoin model is gonna happen, and sometimes to the innocent, and killshooter needs to be in effect, because guys will fly into your bullet stream...pffft!
Re: Killshooter
>>1) The shooter not the shootee is affected. (Due to greifers I see no solution to this)
2) It does not penalize those who willfully and in full knowlege of their invulnerability cut into the path of somebody elses fire. <<
I agree, the above are the primary weaknesses to what we have now :( And I wonder what was in the minds of the HTC staff when they implemented KS. :confused:
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Originally posted by Don
Re: Killshooter
>>1) The shooter not the shootee is affected. (Due to greifers I see no solution to this)
2) It does not penalize those who willfully and in full knowlege of their invulnerability cut into the path of somebody elses fire. <<
I agree, the above are the primary weaknesses to what we have now :( And I wonder what was in the minds of the HTC staff when they implemented KS. :confused:
They were probably thinking that it is the best solution from among all the imperfect solutions available.
If you have a better one, let's hear it.
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Solution: Have the bullets that hit friendly planes be duds.
Why is this so unreasonable? If your bullets hit friendly buildings they don't do damage.. so it's doable.
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Originally posted by Steve
Solution: Have the bullets that hit friendly planes be duds.
Why is this so unreasonable? If your bullets hit friendly buildings they don't do damage.. so it's doable.
still encourages spraying in the conga line.
have it affect *both* shooter and shootee.
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I understand that Shane... but what's the big deal about that?
I don't find myself in many conga lines, and I doubt you do.
Besides, what would you or I care if someone was "conga spraying" behind us. We're closer, and probably better shots.
:)
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Originally posted by Steve
I understand that Shane... but what's the big deal about that?
I don't find myself in many conga lines, and I doubt you do.
Besides, what would you or I care if someone was "conga spraying" behind us. We're closer, and probably better shots.
:)
i'm in the lead of quite a few at times...
the curse of being willing to mix it up...
and that's the point exactly about killshooter affecting *both*... someone better pull off or hold off...
i worry less about killshooter than you would, i'm sure.
:p
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Originally posted by Karnak
They were probably thinking that it is the best solution from among all the imperfect solutions available.
If you have a better one, let's hear it.
how about this for KS.
Zero's both Shooter and Shootee's ammo counters. as it is right now only 1 of the 2 parties at fualt get penalized. destruction
of ur plane is not fair when the other pilot just as much at fualt as u are, gets off with 0 penalty.
Whels
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Originally posted by whels
how about this for KS.
Zero's both Shooter and Shootee's ammo counters. as it is right now only 1 of the 2 parties at fualt get penalized. destruction
of ur plane is not fair when the other pilot just as much at fualt as u are, gets off with 0 penalty.
Whels
too much potential for griefers... penalizing both with damage still allows somewhat for griefers, but at least a price is paid....
maybe 1/2 dmg to shootee, and 3x dmg to shooter...
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I can understand how each person computer may differ on a collision. Especially when one is going down and flames and the other doesn't even have scratched paint.
But a little confused when a collision occurs and one plane is demolished and the other has some, though minimal damage. If both computers read a collision, then why doesn't both aircraft fall to the ground in pieces?
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Originally posted by Steve
Argghhh.
Instead of fragging.... whyt not jusst have the offending bullets just be duds? Kind of how you cannot damage friendly buildings.
This is a good idea - make it such that you cannot damage friendly fighters.....just a waste of bullets happens....
Make Killshooter into dudshooter :-)
I mean if a friendly newbie cant hurt you - he'll soon stop trying to shoot you
and you will not be penalized if someone flys in front of you as you are firing.....
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Originally posted by MwKAZ
I can understand how each person computer may differ on a collision. Especially when one is going down and flames and the other doesn't even have scratched paint.
But a little confused when a collision occurs and one plane is demolished and the other has some, though minimal damage. If both computers read a collision, then why doesn't both aircraft fall to the ground in pieces?
because the FEs detect exactly on which part of plane collided... for example my FE detected a wingtip clipped your tail.... i lose a wingtip and u might lose parts of vert stab...
or my prop clipped your cockpit... insta-boom for you while i'll end up with oil/radiator dmg.
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This has been brought up before, I like the gun damage suggestion.
The blackout suggestion, while it would work in most instances, I wouldn't want that have to happen to me when I'm in a knife fight near the deck.
I also like Whels' suggestion of zero ammo to both shooter and shootee, that way at least both planes could return to base and rearm.
One other suggestion and one that a few people who posted here seem to have forgotten from an earlier post (unless I missed it somehow) is reducing the damage that killshooter inflicts, the lose your tail no matter where you hit the friendly plane just plain sucks.
Maybe damage to the shooter could reflect hitting an nme plane, have the damage in the appropriate areas with the lethality the same as well.
As always, just my thoughts, I can't see it from every perspective so enlighten me.
[EDIT] as for collision, both planes should sustain damage, if there's a collision on one FE then both planes sustain damage to the areas hit.
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The problem with zeroing ammo counters is that it still leaves two enemy aircraft in action and able to affect the fight. If you have an enemy Spit pulling in on your six are you going to try to evade or assume he has no ammo? If you evade he has likely just saved one of his friendlies and affected the fight, a fight he should no longer be in.
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My Pants Are Poopy!
:cool:
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--- shane: ---
because the FEs detect exactly on which part of plane collided... for example my FE detected a wingtip clipped your tail.... i lose a wingtip and u might lose parts of vert stab...
--- end ---
Almost. This would insinuate that the fact you hit something, like the tail, on the other plane means the plane will lose that part. It's still totally upto the other FE to decide where the collision happened happened at that end, and there comes the difference what parts he will lose.
// fats
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Rare though they are there are a few things that really piss me off.However they are so rare id hardly worry about changing it.
1) your in a great fight but low on ammo and gradually closing in to get your kill. Things suddenly look good to go and you blaze away only for suddenly another countryman fly right between you and the target. PING PING CRACK down you go cursing.
2) you shallow dive your fighter ready to drop your bomb on a hanger or factory and its a perfect drop, you roll over to watch it hit and to your horror see a fellow countryman straffing your target and flying right down to almost 0 foot to hit it.The bomb hits just as he flies through it. BOOM you sit in the twr cursing
3) You drop your bombs from a bomber on the town where there are several dots.They appear to be all enemy judging by the map. BOOM in the tower!.It seems there was a friendly camping behind one of those houses :)
Best times in AH when killshooter rocks.
1) some idiot decides to start shooting you from your own side. BOOM cya :D he sits in twr pissed off
2) you chase a con down from 20k fighting hard to win. Gradually you get the scum down to a slow speed and youre about to win BUT several of your countrymen seem to be of the opinion that its now theirs to finnish off and you start to see their tracer streak by your cockpit as they fire over your shoulder. PING CRACK cya :D down goes the killstealers.
good and bad but the good outweighs the bad IMO.
Collisions is a different story, I seem to always lose a wing whenever i pass close to another aircraft.This isnt necessarily in HO either. If i fly into a HO and we both hit eachother with guns (meaning both are TRYING to HO!) it seems Im the only one who is broken up in the final collision,The other guy , invarioubly a weak spitfire flies off unharmed to claim a kill.
If this was ALSO happening for the guy i hit into, ie Sometimes i get the kill and no damage and the otherguy crashes it wouldnt be so bad but it doesnt. I could understand this if i flew a flymsy spit and kept ramming P47s but this is mostly in 190s vrs flimsy spits.I say calculate the strength of a collision and make the weaker plane take most damage!.
Give both damage ONLY when both see the collision. If one sees it give that one a damage that doesnt stop them flying like maybe a loss of a gun or flap.
The problem i have with the collision model is a lot of these people who fly away unharmed were indeed trying for the HO or Ram just as much as the other guy. It seems ONLY certain connections seem to get away with the crash.
Im on ADSL and im always losing out in collisions even when they hit ME from BEHIND. Now that just isnt right.
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Originally posted by acetnt
This is a good idea - make it such that you cannot damage friendly fighters.....just a waste of bullets happens....
Make Killshooter into dudshooter :-)
I mean if a friendly newbie cant hurt you - he'll soon stop trying to shoot you
and you will not be penalized if someone flys in front of you as you are firing.....
You will have hordes of newbies shooting just for the hell of it chasing people around etc.As it is now they end up in the tower and out of your hair,
If killshooter does nothing there is no reason why a player has to stop firing when there is a friendly ahead of him.
scenario:
enemy running with 'PILOTA' chasing him after doing all the work of getting on his 6oc position.
PILOTB dives in 100 yards behind PILOTA and begins firing all his cannons at the enemy in order to steal the kill.
PILOTA although hit many times by PILOTB's guns loses the kill.
basically killshooter stops dweebs from spraying over our shoulders to steal kills,
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OK I'll say it again.... Just disable the killshooters guns after the first hit....... Then he doesn't get the kill.. steal... And if the same Idiot flys in front of your hard fought 6 set up ... you don't get killed by the idiot .............. Bombs and all other variables are also saved from unnessary deaths...
Gatr's 2 cents
81st
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In my opinion which isn't worth anything, I agree with the poster that the bullets hitting a friendly do nothing just like they do with friendly hangers, town buildings, and other friendly objects. They have that coded so I know they could code in the planes also. There is simply no real reason why a person should die because a friendly plane comes diving in between you and the enemy you are shooting. Every time I've been killed by kill shooter it was exactly this type of kill that got me killed. No wait I have been killed a couple of times by people flying through the bomb blast even though I always anounce on local vox dropping on town stay out of blast and invariably someone will fly through the blast.
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Hazed, I don't have a problem w/ the scenario you've mentioned. If someone behind me manages to damage the plane in front of me more than I do, they deserve the kill for being a better shot. I'm unmoved by killstealing. Heck, I don't even mind if people shoot at the falling carcasses I leave. with the way I hose them down, the ammo is probably just being wasted anyway.
As for dweebs following you around shooting at you.. how often would this happen? and why would it bother you?
How about this: If you shoot a friendly, your bullets are duds and your guns become inoperable for a period of time... 10 seconds? 60?
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"How about this: If you shoot a friendly, your bullets are duds and your guns become inoperable for a period of time... 10 seconds? 60?
I like it !!! Suggested the same thing .... ooooo ... 'bout 6 months ago ... in the neverending re-emerging "stop killshooter" plea.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"How about this: If you shoot a friendly, your bullets are duds and your guns become inoperable for a period of time... 10 seconds? 60?
I like it !!! Suggested the same thing .... ooooo ... 'bout 6 months ago ... in the neverending re-emerging "stop killshooter" plea.
Well, to give a different perspective, to me this would be a cancel my account, sayonnara Aces High, deal.
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killshooter is ok, I cant remember last time i killed mysevle on that it is easy just dont shoot at friendly (this happens mostly when 10 guys follow 1 enemy and all want the kill lol)
collision can be frustrating but guess it is needed, that the one who see the other plane dies at impact. (dont seems to work all the time cause of lag i guess)
blinking field is a absolut must in the big maps, we already have enough milkrunners in the game :D
in the smaller maps it might could get tuned down a little.
think about it when there is 80 bishes and 60 nits and 28 rooks,or opposite for that sake.
the country with the dubble players will milkrun and the underdog contry have no chance at all, but maybe save 50 % of the caputres.
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Ok since most seem to want to keep killshooter and HTC probably won't change it anyway, just reduce the damage dealed, and the place that it's dealt.
That'd solve a lot of problems.
Dunno how to deal with the exploding bomb situation now THAT would suck, never happened to me though. I don't level bomb that much.
Maybe the same thing could apply here, can't get rid of it because it would be abused. So just reduce the damage dealt, maybe instead if ending up in the tower no questions asked, the killshooter might live but be crippled depending on the severity.
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Originally posted by Steve
Hazed, I don't have a problem w/ the scenario you've mentioned. If someone behind me manages to damage the plane in front of me more than I do, they deserve the kill for being a better shot. I'm unmoved by killstealing. Heck, I don't even mind if people shoot at the falling carcasses I leave. with the way I hose them down, the ammo is probably just being wasted anyway.
As for dweebs following you around shooting at you.. how often would this happen? and why would it bother you?
How about this: If you shoot a friendly, your bullets are duds and your guns become inoperable for a period of time... 10 seconds? 60?
steve you obviously havent flown in a H2H room when the server/host has switched it off. Ok in MA it would be rare but there will always be someone who finds it amusing to continuously spray your plane while your flying.Theres always someone.
As for the guy behind you deserving the kill thats bs. If im using small calibre mgs i need to wait until im close. Someone in a 202 for instance has to hold on the target for a long time to get the damage needed to shoot it down. A dweeb 700 yards away with 4x20mm could spray at the 202 and the enemy without a care and would 9 times out of 10 get the kill. I absolutely wouldnt accept this.I want to see this guy pay for trying to steal a kill.
I fly with simple rules: If i see someone else chasing a con I dont JOIN IN the chase unless im called or the guy chasing seems to be losing ground rapidly.I dont shoot at others kills after they are physically unable to fly, ie burning or missing wings etc.
If im behind a pilot whos already on an enemies tail I DONT fire over his shoulder to steal the kill.If i do and i hit the friend then i deserve to go down burning.Just think about what you would say if it were real situation when you both finally landed for the day! the guy would knock you out for trying to kill him.You can however follow and wait for the enemy to throw off the chaser and hopefully fly into your line of sight. This is fair enough.
I Dont join in conga lines because its a waste of pilots when 5 chase one enemy and 10 more enemy are in bound!.
so this leaves the only situation i have a problem with and that is the morons who dive in between your target and you even sometimes AS your are firing. Unfortunately theres no code that removes idiotic players and i doubt it can ever be dealt with.
Keep killshooter as is please and ill try to avoid the idiots as much as possible :)
collisions Im not happy with but it seems they wont be changed so I gave up worrying about it.I still curse everytime it happens to me though.
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One thing about both planes taking damage in a collision (even the guy who didn't hit a thing) is the time delay...
The player who didn't see a collision on his fe will also have to wait momentarily for the collision message to go from his opponent, to the server and then sent to him, so he could theoretically take damage a second (or more) after the supposed collision took place.
The whines would be much louder with mutual destruction imo...
It is possible for both planes to take damage in a collision now, tho this doesn't happen too often due to high closing speeds in HO cases ...(most common collision occurences) At real slow speeds its very common for both to take damage.
SKurj
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How about gradual damage combined with a 2:1 ratio for ammo vs hits?
An example:
Hristo is driving a 109G10 with the spud gun and he's gonna frag Karnak. Only trouble is, Revvin drives right through Hristo to swipe the kill. Three of those 30mm taters smack Revvin. As a result, Hristo loses six rounds from every gun (three hits at a 2:1 ratio) and both his flaps go POP. He'd be damaged, and he'd have less ammo, but he's not defenseless or dead.
Plus you could have a "counter" of sorts that reset for each time the guy pulled the trigger. If you hit an enemy, there's no problem. If you hit a friendly, the penalty starts rising. On the first offense, Hristo loses his flaps. Second offense, he can't WEP for 10 minutes or loses some gas. Third offense, he gets an oil leak. Fourth offense he gets bounced back to the tower. Plus, if the offender was driving a perk plane, you could double or triple the perk plane cost while dropping the number of perks per kill by half. Eventually said Dweebling would be reduced down to goon or half-track duty. Slightly less strict than killshooter, but at the same time there's plenty of incentive for folks not to shoot their fellow bish/nit/rooks.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/sig/veggie.gif)
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Nothing.. NOTHING is more flawed in this game than the collision model. It rewards people for deliberately trying to ram. There are plenty of tards in the game who are completely content w/ killing one guy, regardless of whether they live or not. This is by far the worse aspect of the game.
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Steve,
Please tell me how to intentionally ram another fighter when we're both going 350mph and have 250ms difference in position?
How can that be done reliably?
Anybody who is wasting time trying to do that is going to be a free kill to anybody using guns which have to hit not on the shootee's FE, but on the shooter's FE.
In short:
To kill an opponent by collision you must miss him on your FE and hit him on his FE, a position you must guess.
To kill an opponent by shooting him you must hit him on your FE and what is on his FE is completely irrelevant. No guessing anything.
Which is easier and more practical?
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Here is my solution to killshooter:
If the killshooter lands any hits on a friendly, his icon becomes tagged with a skull and crossbones and any other friendly can then shoot the killshooter down and get credit for the kill :lol
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To kill an opponent by collision you must miss him on your FE and hit him on his FE, a position you must guess.
wrong you can hit a guy, see him on your FE and still destroy his plane.
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Originally posted by Steve
wrong you can hit a guy, see him on your FE and still destroy his plane.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
If you are saying that he hit you on his FE and killed you when you did not collide with him on your FE then you have a bug.
If you can get a film of that send it to HTC as that is not how it is supposed to work.
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Originally posted by Steve
Nothing.. NOTHING is more flawed in this game than the collision model. It rewards people for deliberately trying to ram. There are plenty of tards in the game who are completely content w/ killing one guy, regardless of whether they live or not. This is by far the worse aspect of the game.
I had my worst collision experience last week. I was saddling up on pellik in a 38, he saw me late and deliberately thru it into a spin. I had already begun firing (d400-), his spin thru him violently in random directions, there was nothing I could do, I rammed him from behind somehow, he flew away unscathed. There's something wrong with that picture....I die more from collisions of a questionable nature than fire by a factor of 10.
Zazen
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Let me just say this, about that,................
............................. ............................. ............................. ...................um,....................,...............
Ok lets try this,..........................
If your life depended on it, would you let yourself come between a gun and a target when the gun is firing>???................. If this answer takes more then .001 of a second to answer you lose.
If I had some DATA, which I don't, I think it would show that more often the guy who flys between a firing gun and a target should be dead if hit. The shooter is flying his plane, the invincible moron who put himself in the bullets path should die, period. There are now "Buts" to that.
Now, I'm into VB6 so I'm not sure what HT could do with C++ but I would think, that some coding might be able to be put in place to detect a clear shot, from an interrupted shot.
The half-baked idea would be something like.
In Collision:
If the FE reports a front view (on a HO course) of an enemy plane prior to collision (HO) then both should be dead. It takes two for a HO no matter how you look at it.
If the FE reports that the line of sight into the HO was broken off by plane “A” *first * and a collision still occurs, then it would see plane “B” as a rammer and he dies, 10 minute penalty to re-up. Plane “A” would still retain damage, but not mortal.
If plane “A” hits plane “1” in the side or rear the FE should see “A” as a ram and the rammer should die and wait 10 minutes to re-plane. “1” should receive damage but not mortal.
This same type of setup could be used for killshooter:
If Plane “A” (friendly) has a front view of plane “1” (enemy) plane “As” FE would report it as target. As long as “A” has the target *first * plane “B” (friendly) who puts himself in “A” bullet path dies. This may have to be done with a clock element.
If “A” fires a weapon with NO target reported and hits “B” then “A” becomes PNG (no ammo) for 30min-1 hour.
Again, a half-baked idea that could be tweaked into working,……. Maybe
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That's not what I'm saying karnak.
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Originally posted by Steve
Nothing.. NOTHING is more flawed in this game than the collision model. It rewards people for deliberately trying to ram. There are plenty of tards in the game who are completely content w/ killing one guy, regardless of whether they live or not. This is by far the worse aspect of the game.
Here's one for you. I've posted this short (17 secs) film before. It bears out what you say to the absolute letter. View in external mode.
C47 dweeb (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/c47dweeb.ahf)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The best way to avoid killshooter is to be sure of your shot. It's like HO's, it takes two.
Ack-Ack
Have to disagree here, if a friendly comes up under your nose
as you fire, the damage you receive happens so fast it definitely
does NOT take two.
Anyone claiming your SA should include aircraft coming from
your blind side is optomistic at best, after all friendlies are not
supposed to be considered threats, right?
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Do you have an alternative in mind?
For my part, every collision death I suffer is preceded by "oh ****, I'm gonna hit him." Sometimes the guy I hit flies away; sometimes he dies.
In my mind, it is extremely fair for you to die if you see the collision.
Am I missing something here?
curly
What you are missing is that in a colision at 10K we both should die. Westerday I was fighting a guy for 10 minutes. Great fight. We both ended up staling. He was above me and went straight through my canopy. I died, he flyew away with no visible damage.
Same senario a couple of days ago. I staled and hit the guy I was fighting with. He explodes, I fly away.
You think this is fair?
PS. what is kill bomber?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The best way to avoid killshooter is to be sure of your shot. It's like HO's, it takes two.
Ack-Ack
Best and most accurate commentary Ive seen on this subject yet.
I've been here over two years now and I can count on 1 hand and have a finger or two left over the amount of times I've been the unintentional victim of a killshooter. Half od which were my own damn fault.
Couple good rules to avoid killshooter. if your behind a friendly plane on the six of an enemy plane. DONT SHOOT.
Also like Ack Ack said. be sure fo your shot and dont just shoot willy nilly cause your in range.
Use your SA skills. klnow whats around you both enemy and friendly.
I've seen scores of people suffer killshooters and almost without exeption they do it to themselves mostly out of greed.
then moan about killshooters.
Simple rule. Pay attention to what your doing and you wont suffer from killshooter nearly as often
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Originally posted by Rino
Have to disagree here, if a friendly comes up under your nose
as you fire, the damage you receive happens so fast it definitely
does NOT take two.
Anyone claiming your SA should include aircraft coming from
your blind side is optomistic at best, after all friendlies are not
supposed to be considered threats, right?
But in real life they would be subject to friendly fire and just as in real life Accidents will happen. Thing is here friendly fire is suffered upon ones self
But if you follow the guidlines I mentioned they will happen ALOT less.
I see people get killshooters all the time.
8 out of 10 times its their own fault
The whole point of the killshooter is to prevent some dorks from switching sides and intentionally shooting down aircraft from the side they are on. I lived with that nonsence in AW for a while.
I'll accept the killshooter over that any day.
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About collisions, cant both client FEs "agree" the collision? The other way (actual one) the surviving plane would see the enemy breaking in parts without any reason (he didnt see the collision, but the other did).
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if both FEs see the collision, both take damage.
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best solution i've ever thought of would be:
if guns hot 1 FE detects collision, that FE dies
if guns cold no damage unless both FE's read collision
this solves most problesm i belive... and would stop people from being able to fly through bombers or somthing guns blazeing.
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Two FE's will never "agree" on a collision because no two FEs are seeing the same thing. It is simply not possible given the current laws of physics.
All the *****ing you're seeing from stevie will pale in comparison to the first time someone collides with him and he is killed, despite the fact that the other plane was not even near him according to what he was seeing.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
Two FE's will never "agree" on a collision because no two FEs are seeing the same thing.
That happens, else you would never see two planes crashing after a mutual collision, and that happens.
But, if not at the very same time, more than problably with a time window of 2 seconds. My FE signals yours about a collision, your FE will "forget" that signal if in two more seconds no collision is detected, else the mutual collision is "agreed" and damage is applied to both planes with a 2 secs "lag".
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The best way to avoid killshooter is to be sure of your shot. It's like HO's, it takes two.
Ack-Ack
so tell me this... you dive bomb someone
drop your bombs
then some idiot flys over the target
bang to tower
is that your fault? :confused:
is that his fault? :confused:
neither really...
i dont mind killshooters if its bullets... its bombshooter i dont like :(
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Originally posted by OIO
Swoop: because you get yourself an even bigger problem: People shooting through friendly planes.
IMO, a better solution would be to make the pilot BLACK OUT for like 5 seconds if he shoots a friendly plane with more than X bullets..where X is a number of bullets hitting a plane.. X can be like 50 or so, enough to not penalize an accidental killshoot (idiot cutting in front of you and your d200 target), but enough to penalize someone spraying blindly in a furball or purposely going after friendly planes.
like the idea, but what about this.
if someone hits a friendly. all his bullets turn into blanks for 5-20 seconds? or they stop firing?
Really i see no better method of the one currently in place, BUT its annoying that all the damage is x10, and put on the tail, im mean does 1x50c hit cause a plane to break up?:confused:
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It seems odd how it applies the damage. I have taken multiple Hispano KS hits several times without having any systems destroyed.
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Originally posted by GODO
That happens, else you would never see two planes crashing after a mutual collision, and that happens
No, it doesn't happen. I'll say this once again just to be very clear: "NO TWO FEs SEE THE SAME THING EVER."
If two planes collided, then each FE hit the other airplane. This is most possible when both planes are going very slow and lag does not impact as much or when there is a head on collision and you've simply collided with each other's shadow at exactly the same time.
AT NO TIME DO TWO FEs SEE THE SAME THING.
MiniD
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Love the 9 month gap between flakbaits post on 6-16-2003 and Steves post on 3-10-2004..lol..
Must be bored....lol
same with the "Night Sux" post of steves
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No Waffle.. you are wrong. Wrong.
Just wanted to being this up again as night hasn't gone away, and it still sux.
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I'll hop up on my soapbox and deposit my $.02
I die from collisions alot... I always clear the other guy, or atleast that's the way it looks on this screen in front of my eyes... but then, as I watch him fly over/under depending on which way I turned... I hear the lovely sound of my plane falling apart and see Mr. Fly into me continue on his merry way with no damage from the collsion.
As for Killshooter... I don't want it disabled due to nOOb 200624 and his urge to shoot down firendlie cause he can't kill the enemy... I just don't enjoy being popped back to the tower cause nOOb 200624 decides to fly between me and the enemy that is d250 that I am shooting at. My other time I die from KS is when nOOb 200624 sees me diving in on the town to drop bombs/rockets and he decides to do a low level strafe right under my ordinance.
Alternatives:
Collision... either turn it off completely or make both planes crash, either one beats the crap outta one guy dying and the other flying away unharmed.
KS... make it so the friendly plane takes the hits to prevent shooting through friendlies to kill enemies, but those bullets do no damage to anyone.
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but night DOES suck, although clouds are cool
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Originally posted by bj229r
but night DOES suck, although clouds are cool
clouds annoy me more than dark.... you can still see in the dark, but you cant with clouds :rolleyes:
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DAMMIT. FIX THIS DAMN PROBLEM
A 38 FLIES THRU THE TOP OF MY CANOPY... NOT EVEN A GUY I'M POINTED AT OR MOVING TOWARD, MY PLANE GETS SHREDDED.
THIS IDIOTIC PROBLEM REWARDS TARDS FOR RAMMING AND NOT NEEDING ACM. HE PROBABLY WAS THRILLED KNOCK A PLANE DOWN. FIX THIS DAMNED THING.
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Originally posted by MadMan
I die from collisions alot... I always clear the other guy, or atleast that's the way it looks on this screen in front of my eyes...
Nope....if YOU take damage, then YOU hit him on YOUR FRONT END. Thats the way it is and thats the way it will always be. Try avoiding a little bit sooner.
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wrong that's the way it is supposed to be
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Originally posted by sling322
Nope....if YOU take damage, then YOU hit him on YOUR FRONT END. Thats the way it is and thats the way it will always be. Try avoiding a little bit sooner.
rubbish, ive taken alot of collisions when ive not "hit" anything
my fave is a warpy con. Im chasing him, get to D200, then he warps backwards to just behind me and boom im dead because i hit him??? :confused:
no fix for this other than all of us at a 700person lan ;)
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Ive been 'rear-ended' in 17 while on autopilot...STILL lost collision
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It''s as simple as this. Don't fly into people.
The collision code here is excellent !!!
The collision "bubble" here is the size of the plane.
If you complain here you really outta have flown in WB where the "bubble" was huge in comparision to the plane.
I collided every few flights over there. Have a collision WITHOUT HITTING the plane on your FE sound like fun ??
Do it over and over ??
I have NEVER collided with a plane here that I didn't actually hit on my FE. Never.
Chill, ya never had it so good.
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hmmm..if HiTech stopped all-of-a-sudden, we'd need tow truck to get Nopoop's nose outta....
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Call them as I see them bj.
Complaining about collisions here is just plain silly.
But I already said that.
You want to complain about night time ?? Now THERE'S something to complain about.
You want to complain about porking fuel ?? Big Isles or Pizza ?? How the majority here are afraid to fight ??
You want to complain about pork'n auger ??
I call silly when I see it. The position of my nose has nothing to do with it.
Have a view on the pork issue there bj ??
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boy...sensative...was just funnin--yah, on pork issue: Vh's at v bases only need 1k ord to kill, as opposed to 2k at airbase..WHY? P40 can strafe 1 to death...Gas and ack die to easy, take too damn long to come up. Requires MUCH work to kill a hangar, which stays down paltry 15 min, while any dipstick can kill a ack..gas, barrack, etc, which stay down 45 min.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Do you have an alternative in mind?
Ya... 2 planes collide, 2 planes die. How hard can it be to understand that? (apparently too hard for some).
The current version plays to lag. Oh well, don't fly so close to bad guys.
Dead horse, HTC will never do squat about it. Not worth bringing up.
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those who cannot avoid a collision need more time in ta.
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Originally posted by Hap
those who cannot avoid a collision need more time in ta.
avoid what collision? the one where the con is 200 in front of you, then disapears, reapears behind (or INSIDE) you and you lose your tail? :confused:
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Shoot quicker next time.
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http://errthum.com/troy/warbirds/tests/netlag.html
Take 5 minutes to read & comprehend what he's saying.
Was written for Warbirds but is just a valid for Aces High.
Also has link to Hoofs original article on lag.
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I find it amazing that the collision model is a LEGIT problem that many people have a right to complain about, but HTC decides to take away night time for apparently no reason at all.
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I'm starting to think that the collision model is as good as it's going to be due to the constraints of net lag..... I'm learning.
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm starting to think that the collision model is as good as it's going to be due to the constraints of net lag..... I'm learning.
Cool, back to using the modem again then. lol
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LOL Ded, not exactly what I meant. :)
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm starting to think that the collision model is as good as it's going to be due to the constraints of net lag..... I'm learning.
Or they could disable collisions all together, or make it so that both planes go down, to make it fair... not very fair to me to go down in flames and the other guy keep flying merrily on his way.
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Steve I think it's his lapsus for brain ;-(
I find it amazing that the collision model is a LEGIT problem that many people have a right to complain about, but HTC decides to take away night time for apparently no reason at all.
-MM
1) night is question of taste, since there is no feasible way to measure majority, it's not a defined problem to devise a specialized solution for. And it's not such a big deal <- tho a dev shouldn't suffice himself to conclude that - HT cuts pretty simply across the only effective problem, the whining.
2) the netlag problem is well defined and the most efficient solution is the one we already have.
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Yes the netlag problem is well defined, no one has ever said it isn't. I just find that there are two options available that are better than the current:
1) Disable collisions, neither plane is destroyed
2) Have BOTH planes destroyed
The current one is flawed: A collison in which one plane is destoyed and the other suffers no damage. You cannot say that is the BEST solution. And it sure is not the fairest.
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they're all flawed because they all have a flawed internet connection in common. but one is the least flawed effectively:
1) no collisions is not right, that'd mean some tactical loopholes that are probably enough to disqualify this one outright. What's strange is this has not yet been removed from GV modeling, where it's even bigger a loophole.
2) both planes systematically destroyed would mean making players responsible for some other guy's flying, which is just not right, again. You never see where the other player-driven objects really are and thus can't rely on just that. Unless, if netlag was actually predictable and possible to learn, you did, but that wouldn't be much of a 'simulation', and that's not the case: at the scale where planes are likely to touch, netlag is too large to count on acting one way or another.
3) a system where you are only responsible for what you see is flawed by principle but actually gives the best results, considering most internet connections are good enough.
The only common case that should frankly piss off a player is nearly hovering around an opponent on his FE, and for this opponent to maneuver real close (by design since you are trying to bet everything on your outstalling him right at the edge of his ballistics cone) and ram the player by lag from what was initially a safe distance.
In this case the opponent's a 'guilty' rammer: he was the only one with any maneuvering ability, but walks away while the first guy who let his anchor out is sunk by netlag. That's your gamble as a player. Once you have some experience, it's second nature to know what's risky and what's not, and how much risk you want to take; and it's really not so much a handicap compared to real life lagless conditions to come close enough to making this system worse than the other two.
The case of rabbid warping is not too common, and even less that of a player taking advantage of it. You're quickly asked to fix your connection by witnesses and reported if abusing it.