Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: swoopy on June 03, 2003, 10:53:34 AM
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Just dug out one of my old videos which was 'Mansell and Williams', about the year he won the championship in the then legal Williams FW14. The pace and action of the season is something that current F1 has lost, starts were fantastic cars diving all over the place and cars actually overtaking!!!!
aaahhh those were the days.....
(http://www.autotrend.com/pic/27109.jpg)
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Mansell was awesome. I used to love watching F1 back in 87 I think it was (he was teamed with Nelson Piquet, Senna was with Prost in MacClaren).
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Are you crazy? 1992 was a Williams parade, with Mansell and Patrese winning everything by a mile. Only Senna's brilliance kept it from being a complete bore.
This year F1 has 5 winners in 7 races. Much more competitive than 1992. And they are running lap times far beyond what the 1992 cars could do.
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I remember watching the six-wheeled wonders driving the circuit. Didn't really follow F1 then, don't really follow it now, but those cars with the 4 front wheels were really interesting.
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I think the Tyrell six-wheeler last raced in 1976. :)
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That's the Tyrrol car of the 80s (?). Everyone laughed at its unveiling ceremony. On the track it was phenomenal. They banned it with a rule change I believe.
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I liked the Senna vs Prost days too. There were some fun races in there too. I haven't watched an F1 race since Senna crashed.
MiniD
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Mansell was great to watch against senna (the real senna not me, Im a wannabe). Think the imola race was awsome that year, senna vs mansell and lotsa gravel going everywhere. I dont know, maybe the F1 coverage is different now a days, perhaps different camera angles etc... race anouncers and spokes people make it seem more bland. It does seem to have lost some energy though the ranking appear as if F1 has never been more competative driver or team. There are alot less smaller teams (always like the smaller teams) and F1 is more expensive now than ever. Also worldwide economy rather sucks.
I dont like the way the camera angles are set during Indycar races or at most US sanctioned races. They follow the cars too much and zoom in too much as the cars travel down the straights. Makes them appear like they are going slow. Fix the zoom and angle them in the corners and at the start end of the staights. No zoom then one can get a good idea of just how fast or how much distance these cars actually go.
That was the 70s of F1.
(http://members.aol.com/pvbms/t-p34f1.jpg)
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Jeez...I remember watching Senna die. I was totally stunned. The crash was just not that bad. I recall not long before Berger had had a terrible crash in the Ferrari. The mangled car sat on the side of the course engulfed in flames for nearly 30 sec before the safety crews were able to put the fire out...but somehow he was unhurt. How unfair it seemed that the probabilities would all line up against Senna such that a small fragment of the car would hit his face shield at just the right point to end his life. What a shame.
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Mansell driving as number 27 for Ferrari in 1989 or was it 1990 when he was teamed with Berger.
Mansell having qualified in the top 6 (may even have been pole) had a technical problem and had to start from the back of the field. He managed to overtake everyone, including a classic overtake against Senna, to clinch the Hungarian Grand Prix.
Another race saw him lose control at about 170 and do a complete 360 and carried on as if nothing had happened!
I used to enjoy watching some of the minor teams in the late 80s, such as March (Leyton House) in their torquoise coloured cars. I think Patrese and Gugelman were the drivers?
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Mansell won one world championship but didnt he also fall out of another one a year or two before because of a flat tire at the end of the season (not last race). He was doing good just needed points at that race also to win. He was very close to two world titles. Also Senna for the most part had a faster car than Mansell did most of the time, Mansell just out drove him on many occasions. The Maclaren was kick ass. I honestly feel Mansell is just as good as Senna, Senna just did a few things more right and had a better venue. Swap them and Mansell would have had three world championships. Prost is faultless, everybody knows that, spectacular.
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Ah, it wasn't Patrese, it was Ivan Capelli & Mauricio Gugelmin that drove for March.
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/89voi-leytonhouse.jpg)
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Nigel Mansell's Ferrari 640 from 1989.... anyone think these older cars look nicer? BTW, this was the first car to have the paddle gear change on the steering wheel.
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/89voi-ferrari640.jpg)
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I think the current Jaguar looks great.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I think the current Jaguar looks great.
And Webber's got the talent, just needs the luck and experience to go with it,
Tronsky
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Mansell did a few races for ford in BTCC(British Touring Car Championship). Drove great, at the race a donnington park came from the middle of the pack to the front in bad weather (some amazing outbraking in the wet:eek: ). only lost first place due to the engine stalling sending him into the tyres.
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Mansell had a nasty crash in the BTCC, i think it was at bridge on the silverstone circuit (actually hitting the bridge) that left him concussed for the race.
Mansell ruled, and i think the current cars look nicer than the old ones... its amazing how much they change in a short time.
Mansell had a dramatic tyre blowout in australia which put paid to his world title dreams that year (forget the year)
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I have followed F1 since 85
The cars now are safer, faster but i think its was better racing 10-15 years ago.
It was more about quality of drivers back then, now its to much tech and the outcome is usually given unless its starts to rain or a car breaks.
IMO the cars should be more equal in performance so that drivers and pitcrews decide who wins. Michael is not that superior to other drivers, he just has ALOT better car and more money in his team then the rest.
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Originally posted by senna
I dont like the way the camera angles are set during Indycar races or at most US sanctioned races. They follow the cars too much and zoom in too much as the cars travel down the straights. Makes them appear like they are going slow. Fix the zoom and angle them in the corners and at the start end of the staights. No zoom then one can get a good idea of just how fast or how much distance these cars actually go.
Yes! That's my complaint as well. You can't appreciate the speeds those cars go if you're sitting at home watching the race on the television. I went to a CART race in St. Petersburg, Florida, and was impressed at how fast the CHAMP cars could take the turns.
Still, I'm not really a fan of open-wheel racing. The Trans-Am sports coupe series is the better race of the CART circuit, and ALMS puts on some great 3-day events, too. I've already made my hotel reservations for Sebring's ALMS event next year and if I don't get let go from my job between now and March, I plan on actually buying a ticket. :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
I think the current Jaguar looks great.
I've got a die-cast model of the Jaguar R1 (Eddie Irvine's ride) sitting on my desk, mostly because I like the paint scheme but also because it was sponsored by my employer's main competitor. :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
It was more about quality of drivers back then, now its to much tech and the outcome is usually given unless its starts to rain or a car breaks.
IMO the cars should be more equal in performance so that drivers and pitcrews decide who wins. Michael is not that superior to other drivers, he just has ALOT better car and more money in his team then the rest.
More tech now? F1 tech peaked in 1993 and since then they have drastically reduced the aids available to the driver.
More equal in performance? You mean like when McLaren with Senna and Prost or Senna and Berger won every race? This year there has been 5 winners in 7 races. It doesn't get much more equal than that. :)
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Don't quite aggree with ya there gofaster...
Now you have traction control, automatic transmitions, launch control and everything is computer controlled either from cockpit or from the pit crews. There will be some new rules for next season that may eaven things up abit tho.
However, you do have a point about this season SO FAR beeing pretty close but im afraid that when the season is over Ferrari will win again with mclaren in 2nd. (my favourite teams, williams and reanult will fall behind unless the new williams car is better :D)
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I love the looks of cars today, but prefer the engines of yesterday. Saw the six wheeled tyrrel racing last year at donnington park along with other historic F1's great machine.
'92 was the year schumacher started racing in F1 for bennaton won his first race then too.
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Actually Schumi had his first F1 start in 1991, with Jordan, then moved to Benetton during the season.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Now you have traction control, automatic transmitions, launch control and everything is computer controlled either from cockpit or from the pit crews. There will be some new rules for next season that may eaven things up abit tho.
Pre-1994 the brakes and suspension and steering and differential were all computer controlled too, and they had two way telemetry and "track learning" whereby the car learned to shift, adjust the diff, and alter the suspension tuning as it went around the track. Today's cars still have a lot of electronics, but not nearly as much as pre-1994.
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didnt know all that funked...:)
oh well, i guess its just a feeling i have then... that all was better back then.
For some reason i still feel that the racing was better in the mid to late 80's and early 90's.
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Give me CanAm, or give me nothing.
Real men and real cars.
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Didn't Schumacher & Frentzen drive for Sauber Mercedes in the Worlds Sportscar Prototype Championship (WSPC/IMSA) in around 1990?
I liked WSPC more than F1 at the time, although I prefered the Jaguars. Anyone remember this championship? There used to be Jaguars, Aston Martins, Porsche, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota....
Jaguar XJR-9
(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-9_1.jpg)
XJR-11
(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-11.jpg)
XJR-14
(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-14.jpg)(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-14-gtp.jpg)
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Pre-1994 the brakes and suspension and steering and differential were all computer controlled too, and they had two way telemetry and "track learning" whereby the car learned to shift, adjust the diff, and alter the suspension tuning as it went around the track. Today's cars still have a lot of electronics, but not nearly as much as pre-1994.
[/b]
They then banned that casue it was too good, which is what they should be doing with fully auto gearbox's, launch and traction control.
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Replicant, I could live with those too
Yes they did the Mercedes "JR." team as they called it.
Wendlinger also.
Replicant they where called Group C prototypes
WSC World Sports Cars
IMSA in the States.
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I think the quality of the racing is inversely proportional to the aerodynamic efficiency of the cars. Even though the wings are much smaller now, the cars are more dependent on perfect airflow, and they lose a lot of grip when following closely. I'd like to see "spec" bodywork (make everybody use the same bodywork forward/aft of the front/rear axles) to limit downforce.
Actually what I'd really like to see (apologies to Steve Matchett) is a true driver's championship with very fast "spec" cars. And a separate manufacturer's championship with unlimited technical rules and no drivers. For closed circuit racing, with current guidance and control technology, the driver is a liability. :)
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Now a real Mclaren(http://www.bobk.com/historic/images/sjv71-Revson1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Replicant
Didn't Schumacher & Frentzen drive for Sauber Mercedes in the Worlds Sportscar Prototype Championship (WSPC/IMSA) in around 1990?
I liked WSPC more than F1 at the time, although I prefered the Jaguars. Anyone remember this championship? There used to be Jaguars, Aston Martins, Porsche, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota....
Jaguar XJR-9
(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-9_1.jpg)
XJR-11
(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-11.jpg)
XJR-14
(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-14.jpg)(http://jaguarracing.wz.cz/Racingcars/xjr-14-gtp.jpg)
Yep those were the Group C cars. In the USA we had a similar category called GTP which allowed Group C cars. They were just as fast as contemporary F1 cars. They were a little heavier but had way more downforce.
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Originally posted by Monk
Now a real Mclaren(http://www.bobk.com/historic/images/sjv71-Revson1.jpg)
Nice. I've seen a lot of those cars race at Laguna Seca in the historics. McLarens, Chapparral, Lola, Shadow, Porsche 917/30, etc. Gurney, Hulme (RIP), Amon, Follmer, etc. driving of course. Got to meet Dan and Denny and stood right there in the paddock while Denny warmed up an M8D, exhaust pulses singing my leg hairs. :D
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Out of the WSPC (Group C) cars, it was only the Jaguar XJR-14 that was on a par with the F1 cars. IIRC the XJR-14 had a F1 rated Ford Cosworth tuned V8 (N/A?); the XJR-9 & 12 had Jaguar V12 engines (N/A), and the XJR-11 had a V6 twin turbo (Ford?) I think?
They'd normally enter the older XJR-9/12 for races such as Le Man's 24 Hour since the reliability of the V12 was greater for longer distance races.
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Maybe the rules were a little different in IMSA GTP. Some of those cars had close 1000 hp towards the end of the series.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Yes! That's my complaint as well. You can't appreciate the speeds those cars go if you're sitting at home watching the race on the television. I went to a CART race in St. Petersburg, Florida, and was impressed at how fast the CHAMP cars could take the turns.
Still, I'm not really a fan of open-wheel racing. The Trans-Am sports coupe series is the better race of the CART circuit, and ALMS puts on some great 3-day events, too. I've already made my hotel reservations for Sebring's ALMS event next year and if I don't get let go from my job between now and March, I plan on actually buying a ticket. :)
Its those turbos they use in the Indy cars. They muffle the engine sounds and create a less spectacular vibe as the cars hurl past. I actually prefer to watch sports/WSC racing over Indy cars at the races. Their engines are often normally aspirated and are loud. One of my favorite parts of watching a race is at the start when they are all lined up on the grid and they all start their engines. From silence to (dont now what adj to use here). Its cool :). Gets my adrenaline going thats for sure.
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Originally posted by funkedup[i/]
Even though the wings are much smaller now, the cars are more dependent on perfect airflow, and they lose a lot of grip when following closely.
I agree. It does seem like the F1 guys have very unforgiving cars these days. That along with the longer wheel bases and tires in F1 tend to make the drivers take less risks as well. Its a contrast from the older days.
Actually what I'd really like to see is a true driver's championship with very fast "spec" cars. And a separate manufacturer's championship with unlimited technical rules and no drivers. For closed circuit racing, with current guidance and control technology, the driver is a liability. :)
Yawn, no way, I would have to disagree. Not at the top levels of racing. Spec racing is for junior levels. I like F1 alot because its dynamic and is a more grander scale of motor racing. I think they should just keep changing the rules to regulate it (top teams vs rules) and have at it. At the top levels of racing, the drivers should shine as well as the hardware.