Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hazed- on June 04, 2003, 01:06:56 PM
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I was watching 'combat at sea' on history channel and i was suprised again by just how few in number the squadrons were off of the carriers and i realised that our squadrons of 32 or so we have in AH could quite easily account for a full compliment of aircraft.
Could we have a system where a squadron pays in perk points for its own carrier? would it be possible to club together to pay for a carrier and the squadron who buys it can then control it and only that squad can launch off it. Perhaps it could even have a limited number of aircraft on board (say 40) and once those aircraft are used up the carrier returns automatically to port where it decomissions and gives back some perks etc depending on performance.
This would be a great thing for a saturday squadnight. Just think also if you KNOW its an AK carrier in your area? :D you could have some fantastic carrier vs carrier fights if two squads challenge each other.
Perhaps this could be a great way to use an almost 'open sea' map where there are few land masses meaning there are huge areas with various squads sailing around seeking each other out.
I just like the idea of having a ship that you can class as your own personal base.With a limited resource of airframes and which causes a squadron to be carefull not to waste their aircraft in order not to lose a whole heap of perk points. Even better if only squadron members can see the carrier on the map (obviously all can see it but not on radar) you wont have spies telling everyone where you are sailing.
I can see it might not work with too many people wanting a ship to themselves but this could be avoided by making them very expensive.Even making them so expensive that maybe 2 squadrons could only afford to pay for one. I just like the idea of encouraging a mode of play that matches the WAr for its need to conserve lives and weapons rather than an endless supply like we have now which causes most players to not care how many they lose.
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I *REALLY* like your idea hazed!
Seconded!
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excellant idea
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I kind of like the idea too, but would like the option of resupplying aircraft - the old fashioned way of ferrying in new ones. Also, could others still land on the carrier? Might be a nice thing for those needing a close base after damage in a furball. Just limit them from taking off.
Just some thoughts.
Glove
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Lovvit! LOOoooOOOooovvveee itttt!
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This is such a great idea that it underscores the need to do something about the effectiveness of suicide B-17 low-alt divebombers. I'm afraid that if we all *knew* it was, say, an AK or BK or MAW carrier that it'd get sunk in seconds by some l33t g4m3r with a vendetta and a formation of buffs.
Unfortunately, I have no suggestions yet but I do think about it often. All I can come up with is "make the CV a lot tougher," but I'm not sure that's the right answer.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread - it's really a great idea. I'd love to see it in the game someday.
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Not a bad idea. Maybe even have it where you could put together a Task Force even. Get three or more carrier borne groups to move together and have huge strike operations....HMMMM.... I wonder if HT and the gang were already going down this pathway with the AH2 idea. If so I think it would be GREAT!
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Need lots of coastal and deep sea areas then, imagine a saturday night when 10 different squads take a CV out.....
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Originally posted by Noctilux
l33t g4m3r
English please...English.:p
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GREAT IDEA GREAT IDEA GREAT IDEA. I especially like the one about a CV map--i posted something like that a few weeks ago on one of the other threads.
GREAT IDEA on how to manage the carriers, though. REALLY GREAT IDEA.
(can you tell I like it?)
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That has a lot of merit for consideration, though I am not a MA player. Excellent idea IMHO...so what are the pitfalls with this? Anyone think it is a "bad" idea?
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The only downside I can see to this is the length of time it takes for a CV to actually get anywhere.......but for full on squad nights where some squads actually hang out for a few hours it could work just fine. Or allow a CV to be comissioned at any point for use, maybe that was the initial intent (I mighta missed that).
It is a pretty good idea worth some hashing out.
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Wow, a very unique and original idea. Hazed
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Although my squad numbers 2, and right now only one of us can fly at a time :D I think for larger squads this could really perk-up interest for attending squad nights. Sure the trip to your objective would take a while, but that's where the CO has the XO log-on an hour early and start driving....:eek:
Psyco
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"Sir, we have 15 carriers inbound!" ;)
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Perhaps you could build fleets from the total number of available perks to the squad. We could save our perkies all month long, and then up a fleet with multiple carriers or perhaps on carrier with lotsa extra protection (extra cruisers or destroyers). The quality of the fleet you would be able to up would be equal to how successful you are:eek:
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Originally posted by Gloves
I kind of like the idea too, but would like the option of resupplying aircraft - the old fashioned way of ferrying in new ones.
You can do that now. Just take a Marine plane from an airfield, land on the fantail, rearm, refuel, take off again.
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I've been pleading for more ports for awhile now. Your idea is simply a way to get around the lack of ports. ;)
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Check this out CV for sale (http://www.frenchcreekboatsales.com/details.asp?File_Number=BOP12). Buy your very own Aircraft Carrier, a snip at $4.5 mil. Maybe we could all chip in and take it in turns being captain?
Bit off those Aussies selling a ship loaned to them by the Brits what?
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Yeah, I agree. The build/lease with perkies idea has merit. I suppose 40 ac per flattop would reflect the general reduction of size in AH overall (1/2 scale). But I'd like to see them set up the way they were:
The Air Group Composition aboard the ESSEX-class carriers (1943)
1 Fighter Squadron (VF) 36 F4F or F6F
1 Bomber Squadron (VB) 36 SBD
1 Torpedo Squadron (VT) 18 TBM or TBF
Total: 90 aircraft
Or better .....
The Air Group Composition aboard the ESSEX-class carriers (1945)
2 Fighter Squadrons (VF) 73 F6F (or F4U-1d*)
1 Bomber Squadron (VB) 15 SB2C **
1 Torpedo Squadron (VT) 15 TBM
Total: 103 aircraft
(* reflects the 10 F4U squadrons dispatched to fly from Essex class carriers in the final 2 years of the war)
(**or in AH's case SBD)
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Superb idea !
Let`s say a complete CV group for like 800 Perks, and squadmates can contribute freely. Return the beast to a friendly port instead of beeing sunk or "despawning" gives back the Perks.
You could even trade CVs ingame...
"Wee Port dead we can't spawn a CV !!"
"We`ve got a slightly used one over here... just 1500 points..."
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Great idea,,,, Ill be the scout plane looking for other task groups :D
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Brilliant Idea!:cool:
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ditto.. great idea!
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great great great idea
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Hehe..
YES !!
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Good idea but u only have those funny planes enabled at the CV ...
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I like it... Great Idea...
Another I would like to see on CV's is the guy with the paddles guiding your approach... I flew a game long long ago. 1995 ?
I think it was Aces of the Pacific or something like that... They had the guy giving signals and coaching you in... That or the lights.
I think they introduced a lighted guiding bar late in the war...
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You CV Dweeb!
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Originally posted by AcId
The only downside I can see to this is the length of time it takes for a CV to actually get anywhere.......but for full on squad nights where some squads actually hang out for a few hours it could work just fine. Or allow a CV to be comissioned at any point for use, maybe that was the initial intent (I mighta missed that).
It is a pretty good idea worth some hashing out.
The first thing that comes to mind to fix this is to give the Squadron CO the one-time ability to jump the fleet when they initially take command. That'll put it roughly where they want it, and if they want to move later, they can deal with the long boring boat ride.
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All in favor here.
IMO it shouldn't cost that much either.
You get 60 perks for winning the war, 20 each fighter, bomber, vehicle.
Get 10 guys together who will pool perks & cv should sell for 200 fighter, 200 bomber, & 200 GV perks, for a 600 perk total.
I see a couple of potential ways of dealing with planes. Startup cost gets you base setup of say 10 f4fs, 10 tbms, & 10 lvts.
Or have an advanced package for more with F6fs, F4u's, seafires, etc.
Anyone care to bet if this idea makes it into AH2?
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If it does, hitech will be sure to add submarines so I can sink a whole squad of dweebs in one shot.
MWAHAHAH :D
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Originally posted by Noctilux
This is such a great idea that it underscores the need to do something about the effectiveness of suicide B-17 low-alt divebombers. I'm afraid that if we all *knew* it was, say, an AK or BK or MAW carrier that it'd get sunk in seconds by some l33t g4m3r with a vendetta and a formation of buffs.
Unfortunately, I have no suggestions yet but I do think about it often. All I can come up with is "make the CV a lot tougher," but I'm not sure that's the right answer.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread - it's really a great idea. I'd love to see it in the game someday.
That is a good point I can surely see a gang of B-17's divebombing a "Squad CV", vendetta or not, just to make an entire squad loose perks. With that kind of threat looming I don't think too many squads would buy a CV.
I can certainly understand the aspect of Squad vs. Squad CV battles but in the MA I don't think it would be strategicly sound to have a Squad only CV attacking a base where an entire country is able to roll from.
It is a neat idea but unless those things are addressed it may not get used much. I too am sorry to say I have no suggestions at the moment besides the obvious ones that don't really solve the problem but rather create different problems.
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... we don't need squadron-only carriers, we just need more ports.
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Originally posted by Duedel
Good idea but u only have those funny planes enabled at the CV ...
The solution: Dirt strips. You get them like a CV, then point & klick to deploy it.
Your grass/dirt/sand strip will be constructed there. Once a squad wants to move on, the CO orders the ground troops to load up all the airfield on trucks, and drive it somewhere else.
Or make 109Ts for carriers ;)
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Agreed, great idea.
A more robust damage model would definately be in order as well, with some kind of regeneration time for damage.
MiG
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Originally posted by gofaster
... we don't need squadron-only carriers, we just need more ports.
Yep
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wow thats a positive response if ever i seen one :)
I like the ideas about building a fleet up with the more perks you spend.
The suicide divebombers would indeed be a problem, but who knows, maybe HTC will introduce the limitation on angles bombs can be dropped from? (in the level bombers). After all, those racks they used were notoriously dangerous, in that bombs could often get 'hung up' on the way out.I have read 'Combat Crew' by John Comer, a top gunner/engineer on B17s in WW2 and he describes how he often had to clamber over the frame and dislodge the 'hung up' bombs.Often due to the poorly performing oxygen suppliers this could be a fatal job.Some lost consiousness and fell out of the bombbay!.:(
Another thing to consider is you do have an entire squad to protect the CV with this idea. Its not the same as now where often we ignore CV's until they are attacked. If it was your own personal Ship I think you would keep a few defenders up to stop them.
If suicide bombing does stay a problem the only answer might be to make the ships cheaper but have a limit on how many you can purchace in a single tour? there might be other ways to limit the numbers of ships on a map without making people feel left out of the fun.
The main thing here though is to give a squadron their own 'base' from which to operate from.Remember though they dont 'have' to sail alone. They could add their weight to the country CV just as easily too. I really like the grass strip idea devious had. I think when you have a matter of squad pride making you want to hold onto your base you will see some great battles :) add a large trinity sized map with big open areas or seas and we have ourselves a real sea warfare simulator :) If we need to have somwhere to hide then add a moving fog bank lol :D
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I like the idea but another item would be to let whomever has command lock out cv ops, for that noe cv raid but a newb ups or shoots guns and gives it away. A gun lockout as well.
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I like both the grass strip and CV idea. I'd like to fly over the friendly CV and see the huge BK noseart emblem painted on the forward deck....
These two ideas would really boost the incentive for larger squads.
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I don't care one way or the other so long as this idea means that there will be more CV's on the map. Any way to get more CV's or cv's that are harder to kill get's my vote.
At the rate that BK's burn up perk points tho... I doubt that we have more than a couple hundred thousand to spare. would that be enough?
Oh well... if not... we would at least get to fight the anal squads cv's
lazs
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You know what's really appealing about this idea? The thought of a group spending XXX perk points to own it and me overflying in a b17 and sinking it. :)
curly
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curly.... I think that is about the dead end that this idea would come to.
More cv's would just mean more dweeby suicide guys getting better (more practice) at sinking em... Without making it more difficult to sink cv's they would just be a waste.
How bout if the CV can't be sunk untill all the escorts are sunk?
lazs
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Something to thing about is having some of the small squads join in together for a CV. That way everyone can get in somehow. Good idea. It would a new diminion to the game. All you really need for this is a water terrian. You'd have to send out scouts to locate a fleet. It would be easy to make the terrian. But all the settings? How hard would it be to setup?
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This is a great idea, but some of the finer details would need to be thought out.
1) Can only squad members then use the CV?
2) Are there a fixed number of aircraft by type per CV?
3) If non-squad members use the CVs aircraft and commit dweeb death, does this count against the CVs ac compliment?
I totally agree that there is a problem with suicide dweebs, but the CVs are unrealistically hard now. A single 1k through the deck would take out a CV (at least operationally) for several hours or more.
Its the same old problem where there is no penalty for upping and repeatedly going to your death, whether intentionally or not. The solution would be simple, and I've often wondered why its never been dealt with.
Then again I tend to lean towards realism more than most.
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guess i should clarify a bit:
Cv would be owned and usable by the squad who bought it ONLY. The only limit on its use is if it is sunk or if you use up a full compliment of aircraft.
A Cv should carry a realistic number of airframes (see above for a breakdown on numbers but its usually around 40 fighters.Once they are all gone the ship makes its way back to port to decomission (returning some perks to players)
These player owned Cv's would be in ADDITION to the public Cv's we have now.Public CV's would show on maproom but private ones wouldnt.(normal radar/visual sightings applies tho of course)
the aim of this is:
a> encourage the forming of larger squads in order to pay the costs of ships etc.
b> to encourage the conservation of aircraft/airframes due to the limited number you can use before the ship is returned to port.
c> to be able to use your ship without the rest of your country seeing where you are on the map.Thus affording the squad a slim chance they wont be spied on by the idiots who like to do this in AH
d> A new map could be added with MINIMAL work needed on it as with these ships open water would be preferable.There should be areas where short range fighters cant operate and the use of long range scouts becomes necessary to try and find the ships.This shows the value of these types too.
e> spectacular targets for the players seeking to score a devastating blow to a squad they dont like :) hehe
the biggest problem is the ease with which ships can be killed but remember:
A> your ship if paid for by your squadron would undoubtedly be defended with greater enthusiasm.
B> First they would have to find you and if like suggested you are allowed to pick a spawn point from a wide area (in your territory) you could and should be aiming to avoid detection until you want to be seen or you attack.
C> if you dont enjoy using the ships you dont have to buy them :) true people will go out of their way to try to get your CV but thats human nature, look at the effect a perk label has in the MA! do we not try any novel ideas because of stupid behaviour? I hope we do try things myself.
Originally posted by smash
I totally agree that there is a problem with suicide dweebs, but the CVs are unrealistically hard now. A single 1k through the deck would take out a CV (at least operationally) for several hours or more.
I think you would actually be suprised at just how many hits some of these ships could take.Especially the British Carriers with the armoured decks (american CV's had wooden ones!)
heres an excerpt from 'War in a stringbag' by Charles Lamb as he describes an attack by Stuka divebombers on his carrier.
'The difference between the German's methods and the Italians could never have been demonstrated more clearly.They had only one bomb per aircraft so they had to come right down to deliver it personally.Since it was enormous - it weighed 500kg - their determination not to waste their one egg was understandable.They begun their pull out at about 5000 feet, when they had built up their speed to the maximum, from a 10,000 foot start, and they released their bomb while still diving , at about five hundred feet, so that it followed after them with sickening accuracy.
Because the first bomb had neatly planted down the after-lift and had exploded in the hanger, the blast effect was upwards and outwards, under the flight deck. It was sufficiently powerfull to bend all three hundred tons of the forward-lift into a parabola and all the armoured properties of the flight-deck, which had been the Navy's pride, and the pride of Vickers-Armstrong's yard, were destroyed at once.Thereafter in addition to many near-misses which damaged the ships steering machinery and bent her keel, three more armour peircing bombs went through the 3 inch czechslovakian steel flight-deck as though it wasn't there - or was made out of cardboard. Being fully armour peircing some of them penetrated the deck of the hanger too, before exploding below it in the wardroom.'
so as you can see this ship took 4x500kg(@4408lbs) armour peircing bombs and it wasnt sunk.True it was out of comission for a long while but it just shows you that the present damage level of ships in AH is far from unrealistic.When you consider we are using HE and not AP bombs its even less unrealistic.
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Throwing in an idea for Carrier perk point implementation -
Generate perk points from the points earned during planned/joined missions. Earned CV perkies dump into an account that can be "spent" by the C.O. or their designees.
MiG
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Thats a good idea too.
Now get back to work building airplanes..... :D
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Since I have a ton of perkies and I never really spend them I think I'd just buy the cv take it out into the deep water and spend the night writing annoying messages with the waypoints to all my countrymen. :)
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well thats kinda what i was thinking of soulyss...but seriously how would you divide up the squad perks? could one member of the squad just use all of his own perks and "buy" a CV for the squad? this idea, which i like, needs some kind of squad perk point pool. maybe like mentioned, based on squad operations, ect. i think as far as ports go these could be spawned out of existing ports avalible to that side. im all for these squad cv groups to be controlled only by the squad members still based on AH overal rank because if you cant sort it out within the squad then the old rank system should be the default or would it be the primary stock(perk) holder in the CV group? this is a good idea but if it were to degenerate into a vulgar display of perk points by some individules then i would probably be against it. PUNT:D
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Originally posted by lazs2
curly.... I think that is about the dead end that this idea would come to.
More cv's would just mean more dweeby suicide guys getting better (more practice) at sinking em... Without making it more difficult to sink cv's they would just be a waste.
How bout if the CV can't be sunk untill all the escorts are sunk?
lazs
Lazs, I always level bomb (at 10k) CVs with a B17. I put 9k on the projected ship path and 9k on where I guess they might turn. I never die from CV ack - never. Occasionally, I'll loose one buff to a 5incher. I almost never miss the CV. So yup, you have to do something to keep the CV alive.
There's a really simple way to keep level bombing buffs from killing CVs -- fighter cap. There's a really simple way to keep suicide dweebs from killing the CVs - keep the 5 inch guns manned. Lazs, have you ever manned a 5 inch gun? Man, it's impossible to miss the target at 3k or less. There is absolutely no reason a suicide dweeb should be permitted to kill a CV.
And, if you have a REALLY good CV driver, I can't sink it with a B17 - I have to go get a lancaster and fly perpendicular to the ship path. That gives me 4 9k drops and 1 6k drop -- 1 on the projected path, 4 on guesses. But, if I'm in a lancaster, I'm really vulnerable -- only 10k and fairly weak guns.
It's an interesting problem (sinking the CV) and some guys (me, mullah, others) enjoy solving it. :)
Why not station 2 fighters as cap? Why not keep the 5 inch guns manned? You can easily keep the buffs away.
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Why not station 2 fighters as cap? Why not keep the 5 inch guns manned? You can easily keep the buffs away.
curly
Let me get this one for ya Lazs, because it's no fun climbing to 10k and flying around in circles waiting on fluffy... :D
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Originally posted by BNM
Let me get this one for ya Lazs, because it's no fun climbing to 10k and flying around in circles waiting on fluffy... :D
Well, generally it's foolish to expect all of a cake to be icing. :)
A CV is a legitmate target. Guys who enjoy buffs will attack defended targets.
If someone complains about the buff attack, that's like flying in a furball and complaining about cherry picking.
When one airfield attacks a second airfield, almost always, there are a few guys who hang around high and attempt to protect the airfield resources. After all, if a/f A is attacking a/f B and someone kills the fuel/troops at A, yep, the attack dies. Why should CVs be different?
If you guys want to furball near CVs, then you're going to have to protect them.
Hey, here's an idea. :) I'll bet you can find guys who like to man 5-inch guns and guys who like to fly cap over CVs (instead of furball.)
When you have a good furball going near a CV, why not put out a request?
Capped CVs with good CV drivers and manned 5 inch guns cannot be sunk unless the 8 inch guns from an enemy cruiser get it.
curly
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curly.. do you know how many cv's were sunk in WWII by heavy bombers? Hint.. less than one.
Thank you bnm... how gratifiying that someone get's it. curly, I guess that's the point.. the people who like sinking CV's are of a certain mindset that makes it impossible for them to know what is fun for the action set.
When someone says "well all ya gotta do is faorce a couple of players to circle around doing nothing while they wait for fluffy so that the rest of you can have fun..." well that won't work on several levels not the least of which is... how the hell do you get people to do such a boring thing? And if I could get people to do that they sure as hell don't belong in the squad.. and speaking of that..
hazed... you are talking about these cv's being "extra cv's" right? like... one for every squad that can (LOL) afford em? And, if one of the goals is to encourage larger squads then it is a really bad idea.. A lot of the gangbanging started when a couple of massive squads of newbies came over here.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
curly.. do you know how many cv's were sunk in WWII by heavy bombers? Hint.. less than one.
lazs
Lazs .. do you know how many low altiitude furballs (many planes under 1000 feet) existed in WW2? Hint .. less than one.
curly
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Originally posted by lazs2
curly.. do you know how many cv's were sunk in WWII by heavy bombers? Hint.. less than one.
Lazs, I googled your above assertion and clearly you've been smoking what grandpa shoveled from the chicken house.
There so many ships sunk by bombers, it's not even challenging to look for them. Now, it is true I didn't find mention of a CV sunk. Hmmm, wonder why that's so? Do you think maybe they were CAPPED? Stop and think about it -- Battleships HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales were sunk by level bombers. Do you think maybe lack of aircover had anything to do with that? Don't you imagine battleships were more heavily armored than CVs? BTW, you were the guy who injected realism into this discussion ... see above statement. And, I really want to know about those massive 1k and below furballs too!
Thank you bnm... how gratifiying that someone get's it. curly, I guess that's the point.. the people who like sinking CV's are of a certain mindset that makes it impossible for them to know what is fun for the action set.
Certainly the two groups have difficulty understanding the opposing point of view. However, your statement was incomplete. You should have added the furball group are of a mindset that makes it impossible for them to know what is fun for the real action set.
When someone says "well all ya gotta do is faorce a couple of players to circle around doing nothing while they wait for fluffy so that the rest of you can have fun..." well that won't work on several levels not the least of which is... how the hell do you get people to do such a boring thing? And if I could get people to do that they sure as hell don't belong in the squad.. and speaking of that..
I don't like being patronised. So as my gift to you, I promise the following: Just for you, I will scan the map looking for dar bars away from the coast. If I see any, I'll go make sure the homeland is secure by sinking your farging CV.
one for every squad that can (LOL) afford em? And, if one of the goals is to encourage larger squads then it is a really bad idea.. A lot of the gangbanging started when a couple of massive squads of newbies came over here.
lazs
Well Lazs, I guess it's just too bad the rest of us "less intelligent" types can't see our way to participate in Aces High the way you think we should. Furballs have all the appeal of starting my lawnmower, turning it upside down and seeing how many times I can touch a spinning blade w/o losing a finger.
curly
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lol...see what ya did Lazs, you done and went and got Curly riled. ;)
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Ok curly... so we agree that no cv's were sunk by heavy bombers.. great. Low alt furballs? well... yes.. plenty of low alt fights.. some in the med and africa could be called low alt furballs... some in the pacific were fields so close to one another that planes couldn't get to 10k.
I agree that the sky accountants and the furballers will never understand what is fun for the other guy.. I think I allmost allways advocate choice... problem is... the strat guys depend on ruining stuff for people who may never see em or want to bother with em. No one that furs get's any real fun out of killing lumbering strat players... much less hovering around waiting for em and trying not to dose off.
"sinking my cv"?? I don't have a cv. If one is sunk that is the source of a good fight it is not just me that you are ruining the fight for... it is the 2 dozen or so guys that were having a good time. We will just wander off and see if we can find something else that looks like a good fight... stopping yu is farthest down on the list of "fun things to do".
Well certainly us lawnmower jousters are not on the same plain as you baseball and paint watchers (oil based drys way slower check it out) but we do amuse ourselves.... give us the choice...or, more accurately.. don't take away the choice to find a fight and we will be happy... in our short bus kinda way. Heck... when there is a good fur we don't care what you do... HTC will notify us if you heroes "win the war" while we were off having a good time.
lazs
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soo... where was i? Oh, yeah...
hazed.. are these cv's that you want, are they extra cv's or is this just some other anal strat thing to add to the gangbanging and timidity in the arena?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok curly... so we agree that no cv's were sunk by heavy bombers.. great. Low alt furballs? well... yes.. plenty of low alt fights.. some in the med and africa could be called low alt furballs... some in the pacific were fields so close to one another that planes couldn't get to 10k.
Not so fast there, friend. :) No CVs were sunk because they had a protective CAP. Battleships, which were much tougher to sink than CVs, were sunk by level bombers. Fairly simple conclusion ...
Concerning the low alt furball of the type you find in Aces High -- dozens of planes at 1k or less AGL? Name one ... just one.
curly
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I want to use my perks to Clone Kurt Tank Please. :D
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok curly... so we agree that no cv's were sunk by heavy bombers.. great. Low alt furballs? well... yes.. plenty of low alt fights.. some in the med and africa could be called low alt furballs... some in the pacific were fields so close to one another that planes couldn't get to 10k.
I agree that the sky accountants and the furballers will never understand what is fun for the other guy.. I think I allmost allways advocate choice... problem is... the strat guys depend on ruining stuff for people who may never see em or want to bother with em. No one that furs get's any real fun out of killing lumbering strat players... much less hovering around waiting for em and trying not to dose off.
"sinking my cv"?? I don't have a cv. If one is sunk that is the source of a good fight it is not just me that you are ruining the fight for... it is the 2 dozen or so guys that were having a good time. We will just wander off and see if we can find something else that looks like a good fight... stopping yu is farthest down on the list of "fun things to do".
Well certainly us lawnmower jousters are not on the same plain as you baseball and paint watchers (oil based drys way slower check it out) but we do amuse ourselves.... give us the choice...or, more accurately.. don't take away the choice to find a fight and we will be happy... in our short bus kinda way. Heck... when there is a good fur we don't care what you do... HTC will notify us if you heroes "win the war" while we were off having a good time.
lazs
Oh, GAWD, lassie, you are SUCH a hypocrite. "I favor choice", sez you. Sure you do. You favor YOUR choice, and anyone else's choice that doesn't fit into YOUR idea of how AH should work is stupid, wrong, weak, or impractical.
Get over whatever has caused you to have this horrible attitude, man. It's really ugly.
shubie (in case you've forgotten)
Location: porking your furball field
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hubert... the atom bomb would be choice too.. why would you take away the ability of someone to sneak all the way around the map in a fluff and drop an atomic bomb? the bomb would say... kill half the fields.. What? too much effect for too little effort? Get it?
ships that were sunk by heavy bombers didn't have the kind of ack umbrella that cv groups had. Still... I don't care about the realism aspect that much but it is nice if you can have realism and good gameplay... sinking cv's with fluffs is both unrealistic and bad gameplay.
sure hubert.... go ahead and hurt my fields... with your talent level you will be stuck in one place all night... I won't even know you exist...and that is the point... In a game like this... If you don't see the fguy then he should have such a small effect on you that you wouldn't even notice.
but... Hazed... are you advocating adding more cv's or just making the ones we have even less usefull and making the arena even more "maw" like with the gangbang/steamroller version of (cough) "strat".
lazs
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Variety is what keeps many of us coming back to this game Lazs. I think I enjoy a good furball as much as the next guy but if that's all there was then I (and many others) wouldn't play nearly so much. And you need us to stock your furballs.
No crime proselytizing though, think you've won many converts?
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iron... I don't think I have won any converts.. I believe that the new large maps and the new boring gameplay are making converts to my side.
I am simply mr obvious... the only reason I come on is to jam it down people throats. occassionaly tho... I come up with an idea or term of endearment that may be useful. If I make someone ruin their keybord or monitor or get their heart rate up or make em look at themselves or think a little or best of all...
hate me so much that they hunt me down and give my squadies a good slaughter fest... well... I've contributed in my own humble way
lazs
Public Relations Officer For the BK's
we don't like you.
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sheesh laz gimme the chance to read the thread and answer! :)
I was thinking keep the present CV's as they are and usable by everyone.
Squads can pay perks to produce EXTRA CV's. Also if HTC agreed to it I'd like the squad owned CV's to be LIMITED in their airframes the same as a REAL CV would.
The public CV (same as we have now) would have no restrictions or limits they would remain EXACTLY the same as now. Only the purchased CV's would be limited to (40?) airframes and when they are all dead it automatically heads for the nearest port to decomission.
Curly I can understand what you are saying.If players want to keep their CV then they damn well had better protect it.I would agree with this up to a point. That point being the player who uses a bomber (say lancaster) to dive bomb with no intention of trying to survive and every intention of ruining others fun by sinking the ship. If like you say you use a legitimate tactic, level bombing or a torpedo attack I would have no problem losing my CV to it.I dont see why any vehicle or ship or aircraft should have some sort of concession in order to make it live longer.
Laz as for your point , about players not wishing to do standing patrols in order to fend off bomber attacks because of the sheer boredom of flying in circles with no action well there really i no answer, If you or others refuse to man the guns or protect the CV with a fighter screen what is your reason exactly for refusing curly his chance to play the game the way its set up? you wish to fuball but refuse to defend well im afraid thats your fault not curly's.
The point i made earlier is pertinant here though. If you have a squad of 30 or so players on your squad night and all are with you on your private squad CV they WILL want to protect it because it COSTS THEM if its lost. You will most likely set up a cap of 10 or so fighters to cover your very own CV maybe 10 bombers to attack your target and 10 escort planes. The CAP of the CV will indeed be less exciting than the attacking pilotsjob but then you and others in your squad will just have to do your time as a CV defender IF you want to continue to use it and not lose all your perks. It would definately be a whole different situation than the present one we have with undefended public CV's.
Maybe your squad is full of furballers who refuse to hang around and defend the squad CV? well guess what? you are not going to be using squad CV's for long are you :)
Maybe you will need to recruit a few of the types who WILL defend.
I for one can predict right now when i run into an AK privately owned CV I will be met by a standing fighter patrol. If you find my 113th lucky strikes CV you will see the same. True those pilots defending wont be having as much 'fun' as the others in the squad flying attack missions etc but they will be performing a REALISTIC job whch further adds immersion imo.Also we would take turns in doing so.
If your squad isnt prepared to do this sort of thing then , well, you are going to lose your CV and your perks real quick ;)
As to the point about only an entire squad being able to afford a CV that could be adjusted according to what happens in the MA. If they all seem to be killed off too easily then they will have to be cheaper to buy until they are used a lot by various squads.
Think about it, you say it wont encourage squadron joining but to me, if I saw some squad sailing ships around that no one else can use I think I would want to join that squad so i too can use them.
btw curly and laz we shouldnt be argueing about it here because HTC havent even commented on the idea. It may be something they wont ever use or it might not be possible or desirable for HTC to use 'pool' perking. What we need now is someone from HTC to say if it might be used or indeed if its even possible.
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hazed.. I don't think that we should have to man the acks.. they should be automatic and able to kill as well a manned 5 inchers..
as for the AK or whoevers cv... I don't want to sink it. I just want to kill every guy they send up from it. If they have a cv close to one of my fields that is every bit as good as if I have a cv. the cv is just another airfield to me... a close one. A place for a good fite.
If not for killshooter I would shoot down our own bombers that were going out to kill an enemy cv.
lazs
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Lazs, you remind me of an old dog I used to have. He would sit around licking his "nether regions." We would occasionally have company over and I would make him stop the licking when we had guests (he required about 2 reminders/minute.)
Every time I would correct him, he would whine. The more I made him quit licking himself, the louder he whined. Hell after 15 minutes or so, he was in full bellow.
You sound just like that old dog. :)
That old dog had another habit that I haven't directly observed in you -- however, I suspect you have it too. When a strange female (human) came into the house, he would discreetly follow her around. The second she turned her head, he would stick his nose under the hem of the dress and lift it straight up until he had his nose right in the crack of her butt. Heh, I used to take a seat and watch the action. I saw more than one woman clear about 2 feet in a vertical leap.
curly
I still want the historical details on the dozens of planes furballs at 1k or so. :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
hazed.. I don't think that we should have to man the acks.. they should be automatic and able to kill as well a manned 5 inchers..
as for the AK or whoevers cv... I don't want to sink it. I just want to kill every guy they send up from it. If they have a cv close to one of my fields that is every bit as good as if I have a cv. the cv is just another airfield to me... a close one. A place for a good fite.
If not for killshooter I would shoot down our own bombers that were going out to kill an enemy cv.
lazs
Id have to agree here that the 5" flack is rather useless on automatic. Only when they are manned do you notice they can actually hit you regularly.However if you fly through the cone of light ack I dont know about you but for me im almost always shot down.I can dive in and pull out on the edges of it and survive but i cant ever fly right through and hope to fly away.I have seen others do it and i often wonder how the hell they manage it.Same thing on bases really.I fly though and im almost always hit yet i regularly see spitfires fly right through a fully acked base without a scratch.might this be a connection (ping) issue?
I must say i am a little against dieing in an online game to ai controlled weapons though.I still am of the opinion that I fly online games to fight human opponents rather than computer ones as i can fight computer opponents for a lot less money.Currently in order to play AH i pay the $15.99 monthly sub + £24.99 for ADSL.
You know what would solve this problem? If we have a CV which cannot be sunk but instead can be severely damaged.Perhaps 6000lbs shouldnt snk the ship but rather cause the server to display a huge fire on and below the flight deck.The ship is automatically led on a course back to port by the server overiding any player waypoints.For ten minutes the ship would continue on this path as the fires are brought under control by an Ai fireteam. Once a time limit of lets say 10 minutes has passed the ship becomes usable again.You could have the other ships like the cruiser stay the same as they are now ie you can sink them.
You could even make it so that the one and only way to actually 'sink' a carrier is to torpedo it.Bombs can only damage it above the waterline.
What we really need is a way for players to be able to sink the ships but it has to be a way which requires a great deal of skill.Im sure even you laz could accept losing a carrier if the player who sunk it flew an exceptionally hard mission to do it. Torpedo bombing is currently quite difficult but its not used often because it simply isnt as easy as using large quantities of normal bombs and a plastering the area in a dive.
It wouldnt actually be asking too much from reality to have a ship unsinkable by a HE bomb. Armour piercing bombs could but in AH we havent got AP bombs only HE ones so this restriction wouldnt be so rediculous.(until HTC add AP and ruin the idea ;))
Curly just out of interest do you ever fly torpedo runs? If you dont and continue to use your level bombing method with increasing ease then surely you must be getting a little bored with it? If HTC made the restriction I suggested and level bombing no longer removed a carrier threat perminantly but only temporarily dont you think you might start to use the more perminant torpedo attack?
This would put all potential CV killers at an altitude which even laz with his 6k alt cap could fly at :D
problem is what about a squad owned CV? would this also have the same model? its a tough call but i think it could have the same torpedo only sinking as, like i have suggested, if it has limited airframes there will always come a time when the ship would have to return to port so it wont be possible to hang around endlessly in enemy territory.
I also feel it only fair that a shore battery should be able to sink any ship.
This restriction on HE bombs and ships would in a stroke make suicidal jabos and bombers rather a waste of time as the only effect would be a temporary respite from the CV. The suicide jabo/bomber pilot would be dead and in 10 mins the CV will be steaming back to attack their base.They would have to learn to torpedo it if they want it removed perminantly.
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Originally posted by hazed-
Curly just out of interest do you ever fly torpedo runs? If you dont and continue to use your level bombing method with increasing ease then surely you must be getting a little bored with it? If HTC made the restriction I suggested and level bombing no longer removed a carrier threat perminantly but only temporarily dont you think you might start to use the more perminant torpedo attack?
No Hazed, torp runs are suicidal in nature, so I don't do them.
How can I get bored doing CV runs?
Tonight, I upped a flight of B17s from A39. There were 3 enemy CVs offshore and planes were just beginning to climb towards A39 (Bish field near HQ.)
I climbed towards the fleet, leveled at 10k and started shooting at the trail of F4Us, F4U4s, F6Fs and Seafires behind me. I killed 4 of them but lost my drones.
I put 6k squarely on one CV (got a 5th kill with the drop) and headed home.
Now, if the CVs had had some 10-12k CAP, I would have been d-e-a-d and no bomb drop. As it was (uncapped), I was able to get 6k off and RTB. Only the presence of truly impressive numbers climbing towards me prevented me from killing 2 of the 3 CVs.
When I tried to land at 39, I was vulched.
Bored? Gawdalmighty, it was exciting. :)
No doubt Lazs would have died from boredom - I mean I only had to fight off 8-10 attackers. :D I want to emphasize they were below me. I have trouble fighting off one attacker if he's above me. If he's decent, I'm dead.
curly
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curly... people aren't dogs. best to reserve your kicking for your dog and hope no animal rights people are around.
hazed is correct... the effect should match the effort. pretty simple really. but... what I see advocated most are ways that one person can affect the game for a dozen or more by doing something that requires very little or no skill.
tw9.. i don't care so much that If the carrier is sunk that I can't "land kills" so much as I can't take off again and rejoin the great fight that 2 dozen people were all enjoying... it is a simple matter to ditch at the group and not give anyone the kill..
I think it would be better for now if the cv were not capable of being sunk, invulnerable, untill all the other ships in the group were sunk.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
hazed is correct... the effect should match the effort. pretty simple really. but... what I see advocated most are ways that one person can affect the game for a dozen or more by doing something that requires very little or no skill.
Lazs, Hitech designed the game with clear intentions of promoting "team participation." Indeed, if the members of a country don't cooperate, things go to hell in a hurry.
For example, if everyone ignored attacks on HQ, then you lose DAR. Now, you may or may not care whether DAR is up, but I suspect the majority of the participants want DAR.
Why aren't you raising hell about HQ attacks? They affect many more people than sinking a CV.
I suspect you have a clear and uncomplicated agenda: You want to furball and nothing else.
Lazs, I don't enjoy protecting HQ. And yet I do it because it protects my ability to have fun later in the game.
Lazs, quit licking yourself and spend some time protecting your CV. You can take a tiny amount of pleasure in shooting my sorry donut down and spend the rest of the time stroking the round.
curly
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thing is though if you have a ju88 flying at < 200 feet and , 200mph they are far easier to fend off with fighters or ships guns.
I had a go in the ship guns yesterday and i had 4 attacks on me by a formation of lancasters which dived in , a formation of ju88s which dived in and two seperate attacks by P47s.
I shot down almost every one but they all managed to drop their bombs on or close to the CV.I would have to say i dont think i could have done much better than i did as i got almost all of them at a long distance, 2.5k for one of the lancs. But still their bombs caused damage.
The last attack was by a p47 which flew directly into the deck and just as he was a few hundred yards up he dropped the bombs,(you can hear the whistle start).A blatent suicide bomb.
I have to say I was disgusted by it.There wasnt a single attempt to pull out apart from maybe the ju88 pilot and the CV was sunk. It would take well over an hour for the next CV to get to the same place.
This doesnt seem right to me. Its far too easy to kill CV's in this game if you have no care about losing your aircraft.Theres no penalty at all is there? anyone can up drop a bomb die and repeat.
What this means is Bomber pilot fans and Ground attack fans have a nice easy time and a nice target to hit causing a large affect to the game.The player who likes to furball between two close bases wants the CV to stay up but his choice is stop furballing and defend or continue furballing and soon they will have to stop due to loss of the CV.When you think about it its hardly fair is it?
FAIR would be:
CV can be defended easily from small scale attacks using AA guns, in order to overwhelm the AA you would need to send several simultanious attacks.
Ground attack players in fighters or bomber pilots can damage a Carrier ship and can repeatedly do so but the reward ISNT sinking its a temporary closure of the CV - the fire idea i mention earlier (they can still sink a cruiser/destroyer ships normally)
To perminantly remove the carrier players will need to organise a proper torpedo attack using ONLY the B5N, ju88 ,tbm or ki-67.
or perhaps allow only the specialist dive bombers to load AP bombs which are only used for shipping targets.(ju88 perhaps excluded as 4x1000lbs of AP would encourage suicide behaviour) this would mean ONLY the D3A1, TBM, STUKA, SBD CAN be used to divebomb and sink a CV.I would recommend making each carry a maximum of either 1000lb AP or 2000lb AP depending on their max capability
This means in order to SINK a Carrier it requires more than one attack or one big organised and successfull attack.In other words the bomber pilots and jabo pilots HAVE TO EARN THE KILL.
this way if a cv is sunk no one can complain they had an easy time of it. Furballers would have more chance of stopping these particular types of aircraft than suicide lancs and b17s and heavy fighters.
I think this would be a better way to ballance the battles than as now where its so easy to sink the CV we all know its doomed as soon as the first suicide attempts start.Its really not a nice or fun way to play the game imo.causes frustration for the pilots using the CV.even the gunners as they can hit their targets but they can rarely prevent them lobbing their bombs which still hit.
I would like to see squad CV's battleing it out myself but as i noticed last night suicide dweebery is so rife its hardly worth using Cv's these days.It needs fixing before squad CV's would work imo.
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Just thought of another way to make suicide bombing in formations less effective using the same model AH has now, no changes apart form to make ships impervious to all but a direct hits by bombs.
this way even if you do drop 3x the bombs due to the width of the formation only one set could actually hit the others would hit water harmlessly.
this could at least help a little now without much of a change to AH.
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Hazed - overall this is a good idea. I support it.