Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rapace on June 04, 2003, 09:00:55 PM
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Question ... On AH 2 thoughts to insert some other Italian plane? :rolleyes:
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2 is not enough? som nations have none:D :D
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And some other nations have a dozen, so there is no reason :rolleyes:
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MC.202 is missing its two underwing hardpoints which could carry two 100 liters drop tanks or two 160kg bombs (2x100kg or 2x50kg)... then italy got at least one jabo :)
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Italians REALLY need a bomber or a torpedo-bomber.
I hope both for AHII and MA classic.
The answer is: SM79!!!
(http://lupoweb.supereva.it/sm79.gif)
It looks good... it has good punch...
(http://lupoweb.supereva.it/Sm79-b1.jpg)
...it was one of the most successful planes of the Regia Aeronautica.
(In the pics a couple of beautiful SM79 during the spain civil war, 1939)
(http://lupoweb.supereva.it/sm79-6.jpg)
And of course, classy CR32!!! Yeah! :cool:
(http://lupoweb.supereva.it/cr32.jpg)
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And true that are two ... But Italy was doing part of the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo AXIS ...
And besides 202 and 205... of aeroplanes he has produced I do not consider what on a WWIIsim is sufficiently only represented with 2 planes ...
I apologize for my very bad inglese I hope that you have understood ... :D
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cr42 Id like to see too.
The SM79 was the most successfull torpedo bomber of WW2 so it must have done something right.I'd also like to see it added.
However if we really want to have a model in AH for the most COMMON types of bomber then the B24 liberator is a huge gap in the planeset.problem is its another US model and we already have loads.
To get a new heavy bomber and try to add a usefull aircraft from a different country or less represented country then we maybe need to add the italian heavy bomber Piaggio P.108 B or the Russian Petlyakov Pe-8(4 engined) or IIyushin II-4 (2 engined @5,200 built)
Then again id still love to see a He-177 in AH :) just cant please everyone ! :D
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HOw much ord could the SM79 carry? Tonnage? Loadouts?
Details man, Details! :D
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S.I.A.I. SM 79/III Sparviero
(http://lupoweb.supereva.it/sm79.gif)
Wingspan 21,20 m.
Length 16,80 m.
Wing area 61,70 m.
Weight
(empty) 7.700 kg
(loaded) 11.400 kg
Bomb load 1.250 kg
Torp load 960 kg
Machine guns
4 x 12,7 mm
Cannons
1 x 20 mm Safat
Crew 5
Engine type
3 x Alfa Romeo 128 RC. 18 (860 cv)
Assignement
R.A. 98° gruppo
A.N.R. Gruppo autonomo AS (aerosiluranti)
Delivered quantity
1.460 (model I, II and III included)
First Flown
Oct 1934
-------------------
Performance
-------------------
Speed at Height
475 km/h
[267 at 13,120 (mph/feet)]
Service ceiling
8.500 m.
[21,320 (feet)]
Range
2500 km.
[1180 (miles)]
Climb 19,45 (min to height in fet)
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OOoooo.... Nice, would prolly be disused in the MA, as are Bostons..
Would be fun a heck to use tho in a scenario.
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Piaggio P108
(http://www.regiamarina.net/arsenals/planes_it/heavy_bombers/images/p108b.jpg)
Info :Link (http://www.regiamarina.net/arsenals/planes_it/heavy_bombers/heavy_us.htm)
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By all means, looks nice :)
Variety is the spice of life!
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Would be fun a heck to use tho in a scenario.
Agree, Rutilant! :D
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I have returned to post in this thread and once again haunt you all with biplane pics ! ;)
Heheh well I would like to see CR.42 and Gladiator, probably more than any other plane, but I think you all know that already :D
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Defeater says to ramzey:
"And some other nations have a dozen, so there is no reason"
I agree 1000% :D
WE (italians) need at least one bomber and one jabo!
BOMBER
i like very much the sm79 cool and goodlooking but for the bomber's comparison plz look at this post:
Best New Italian Bomber (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65464&perpage=40&pagenumber=2)
also that rapace suggest the 4 enginned piaggio-bomber but the problem is that the piaggio p108 never get into serius battle as the sm79 or the Cantz 1007.infact the sm79 and the Cantz was used all time long since spanish war to the end of wwII dropping tons of bombs in all the mediterraneo sea.
JABO
plz Reggiane 2000 2002 or the better 2005!!!
at least as suggest Lupo cr32 or better cr42 who can carry 2 bombs of 100 kg
...and what about fiat g-50 & fiat g-55 with 3X20mm guns it was used also with finnish's flag!
i'm sorry for this post i know this is not the correct sections where speak about what we wanna fligth in AH2 but when people speaks about italian plane i cant stay in silence!!
:D :D
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And the bestest thing about the SM-79 Sparviero and the CR-32 Chirri is that they both flew ......
In the
Spanish
Civil
War![/size]
:D
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WTG everybody! :D
I'm dreaming about a spanish civil war scenario, with sm79, cr32 and bf109, oh god! :cool:
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Why on earth would you want a SM 79, when you could get a Cant Z 1007, it's way more capable, and would be far better a bomber.
See the link bellow in my sig for the full story.
Their are realy only two bombers worth serious consideration for Italy, both saw service throught the war with Italy.
Now If we look at the capabalities of the two we soon see the following, The Cant Z 1007 was:
Faster: Top speed aprox 10 to 30 mph faster than the SM 79(depending on model)
Climb Rate: Cant Z 1007 climber initialy aprox 500 ft per minute faster than the SM 79.
Z 1007 initial climb rate aprox.1, 550 ft/min.
SM 79 initial climb rate:1,150ft/min(typical)
Range: The Cant Z 1007 had aprox. twice the range as the SM 79. SM 79 aprox 1,243 miles Cant Z 1007 aprox. 3,100 miles.
Defensive Arament:Both had a very simmilar defensive package, two 12.7mm and two 7.7mm guns, the 12.7mm being dorsal and ventral guns and the 7.7mm beams guns. The SM 79 howeaver on some models had a 12.7mm fixed firing ahead.
Bomb load, the Cant Z 1007 could cary a larger bombload.
SM 79 aprox2,640 pounds(later models) or Two 450mm torpedos.
Cant Z 1007 aprox. 4,410 pounds internaly, alternatively two 1,000 pound torpedos and 4 bombs up to 551lb on under wing racks.
So in conclushion the Cant Z 1007 is Faster,Climbs Faster, Has Twice the range, and Twice the Bomb Load and is as well defended, also In torpedo mode it not only has the same torpload but can cary Four 500 pound bombs at the same time.
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/Z1007-004.jpg)
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/Z1007-006.jpg)
My wet dream for the CT would be the Cant Z 1007 and the MC 200, CR 42, and a Re 2000 series Jabo.
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wtg brady Cantz is the best but i love the sm79 is so cooler!!!
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/cfs2/cfs2_hurry_vs_sm79.jpg)
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/savoia/sm79_otranto_1941.jpg)
than the Cantz :cool: :D
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/cfs2/cfs2_cantz1007_01.jpg)
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/cantz/cantz1007bis_230sq_95gr_35st.jpg)
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Belle foto Bigjava! gli screen sono CFS2, vero?
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WOW!, Nice Shot's the Cant pic on the bottom is now my wallpapper:)!
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My wallpaper is the SM79 above, of course! :D
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Ya it is a Nice shot to be shure.
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Three important words you must not forget:
[size=8]Spanish
Civil
War
[/size]
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Originally posted by brady
Why on earth would you want a SM 79, when you could get a Cant Z 1007, it's way more capable, and would be far better a bomber.
See the link bellow in my sig for the full story.
Their are realy only two bombers worth serious consideration for Italy, both saw service throught the war with Italy.
Now If we look at the capabalities of the two we soon see the following, The Cant Z 1007 was:
Faster: Top speed aprox 10 to 30 mph faster than the SM 79(depending on model)
Climb Rate: Cant Z 1007 climber initialy aprox 500 ft per minute faster than the SM 79.
Z 1007 initial climb rate aprox.1, 550 ft/min.
SM 79 initial climb rate:1,150ft/min(typical)
Range: The Cant Z 1007 had aprox. twice the range as the SM 79. SM 79 aprox 1,243 miles Cant Z 1007 aprox. 3,100 miles.
Defensive Arament:Both had a very simmilar defensive package, two 12.7mm and two 7.7mm guns, the 12.7mm being dorsal and ventral guns and the 7.7mm beams guns. The SM 79 howeaver on some models had a 12.7mm fixed firing ahead.
Bomb load, the Cant Z 1007 could cary a larger bombload.
SM 79 aprox2,640 pounds(later models) or Two 450mm torpedos.
Cant Z 1007 aprox. 4,410 pounds internaly, alternatively two 1,000 pound torpedos and 4 bombs up to 551lb on under wing racks.
So in conclushion the Cant Z 1007 is Faster,Climbs Faster, Has Twice the range, and Twice the Bomb Load and is as well defended, also In torpedo mode it not only has the same torpload but can cary Four 500 pound bombs at the same time.
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/Z1007-004.jpg)
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/Z1007-006.jpg)
My wet dream for the CT would be the Cant Z 1007 and the MC 200, CR 42, and a Re 2000 series Jabo.
Why on earth would you take a Hurricane instea dof the far more capable La7?
Is fun, much funfun-ness :D
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While were likely to get bunches of new fighter types, it is highly unlikely we will get just one let alone two Italian bomber's in this life time, thats why I prefer the Cant Z 1007, since it is the better machine. So to go with the funess analogy of the La7 vs the Huricaane as u see it the the Cant is the funner machine...:)
The only real argument for the SM 79 is that some people think it looks better than the Z 1007, it has nothing to with preformance.
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Neh .. it performs fine. The Cant has some slight advantages here and there. The main thing I keep reminding you of is that the 79 has more history. To a scenario designer ... history is a major point in it's favor. :D
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Other than the fact that it sank more ship's and was in Spain thats the only history it has, that and the Z 1007 was it's replacement, and they both served throught WW 2, and scenaro designer's have had to comprimise so much in the past on planes and choces for scenarious that a Cant Z 1007 would be close enough for any set up that would require a SM 79 and in most cases they were in service in the same theater anyway so no subing would be nesscessary, heck if a JU 88 can sub for a Betty (LOL) a Z 1007 and a SM 79 are close enough for them I am shure.
While you may downplay the advanatges of the Z 1007 since it is keeping with you pro SM 79 stance, the numbers are realy very much in favor of the Z 1007, espichaly if your in the hanger and deciding which bomber to take. Do you want to take half the bombs take longer to climb and fly slower to target, but take solace in the knowledge that some people find the SM 79 sexy:), or take twice the bombs climb faster and fly faster...hmmm:)
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Hey Guy's, Have you seen this?:
http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/cr32_cd.htm
(http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/images/cr32_10.jpg)
The link apears to broken , do any of you know if they are obtainable?
I have several of the ALI D'ITALIA series, and a few Aviolibri book's, but I would like to expand my colection, any sugestion's?
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The Re 2002 would nice to have as well:
(http://cloud.prohosting.com/hud607/uncommon/aircraft/re2005/re2002_01.jpg)
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia1/Re2002-1.jpg)
Or a Re 2000:
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/Re2000-001.jpg)
And the Re 2001:
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/Re2001-002.jpg)
Be nice to have an Italian Jabo plane.
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The Bomb(s) would rock hard as well on a CR 42:
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/46656/0.jpg)
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could the Cant Z 1007 torpedo bomb? I know ive read that the SM79 was a superb torpedo bomber.
As for better performance of some 10 - 30 mph it would obviously help a bit but in an arena where most aircraft would be some 100 mph quicker that small increase in speed wont help much.
personally i prefer the SM79 because ive read so many stories that involves it. If i was to start seeing lots of stories about the Cant Z 1007 I might change my mind ;)
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Yes it was torpedo capable. See above.
"Cant Z 1007 aprox. 4,410 pounds internaly, alternatively two 1,000 pound torpedos and 4 bombs up to 551lb on under wing racks."
On 29th Augast 1940 the Z 1007 began it's operational carier, the first unit to go into action the 106th Gruppo (260th and 261st Squadrigli) operating from Trapani-Milo aganst Malta.
In October the 50th Groupo began operating from Brindisi over the Greek Albanian war theater. Later it was joined by the newly formed 51st Groupo.
The CAI also operated some Cant Z 1007's over England during the Battle of Briton.
Later in the Balken Campagine More and more Z 1007 units were formed as production proceded and new machines went into service, the 47 Stormo, 41st Groupo then the 95th all particapated in the Balkin camagine.
At this time several S.79 units (late 41) begain to convert to the New Cant Z 1007 as more became available.
Operations over Malta contunied all through this time...
Cant Z 1007 also were operating in NA at this time with various units including the 176th Squadriglia, then in Augast 42 the largest presence in Libya came with the 35Stormo (86th and 95th Groupo), operating agnast Tobrook, and during the Remender of the campagine in NA all the way up till the withdrawl of forces in NA.
A few Cant's also went to Russia.
Cant Z 1007's operated from Libbya, sardinia, Sicily,Greece, and Rhodes, their targets included raids aganst the Middle east, Alexandria, and British shiping throught the med, and target's throught NA.
They operated right up till the end , and after serving with the Allies and Axis forces after the surender, and the last was decomishioned in 1949.
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The above info came from: Ali D'Italia 18 C.R.D.A. Cant Z 1007,
Some adational Quotes from this Volume:
p.9 "The cant Z 1007 apears to be the most advanced Italian landplane bomber wrote the Air Staff Office( on 3 Augast 1938)"
p.11 " Magor Giuseppe Colavolpe, commandor of the 1st Flying unit, described the handeling qualities as excellent and satisfactory under every aspect."
p.11 "On 12th Augast 1939, the Air Staff Office informed Gabaereo that the preformance recorded placed the type very clearly ahead of the SM 79."
p.11" Since the Cant Z 1007bis has been shown to have better preformance than all other Standard Bomber aircraft currently in service, and in the event that such results be sanctioned by practial experience with service units{they were}, it will presumably be necessary to orient future orders towards this aircraft type."
p.22 "upon entering service the Cant Z 1007bis immedately showed qualities that endeared it to it's crews- docile handeling, stable platform, good low speed characteristics."
p.22 " bombs were well placed, making for predictable trajectories that inproved accuracery."
P.22 "Defensive arament was also found adaquate to keep enemy fighters at bay."
p.22 " wooden structure extreamly strong"
p.26 " the gradual increase in of the Cant Z 1007bis production rate translated into greater availabaility, which in turn allowed sereral SM 79 units to convert onto the new bomber."
p.35 "1942..."by now the aircraft formed the backbone of the reconnaissance and bomber units."
p.37 " Lt Vittorio Sanseverino, a veteran of the 256th squadrigilia, testifies that the 1007 could take great punishment and was not easily set on fire."
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Originally posted by LUPO
Belle foto Bigjava! gli screen sono CFS2, vero?
si lupo le ho beccate dallo stesso sito dove ho trovato le foto, e ce ne sono altre tutte molto belle sia per dimensioni-qalità che per tipo di scatto "artistico! ti metto il link alla main page:
gli screenshoot li becchi sotto la szione wwII perchè il sito parla anche della wwI...
pic's home page (http://www.finn.it/regia/index.htm)
anzi no ti metto pure il link diretto... ;)
CFS2 screenshot (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/csf2_screenshots.htm)
Originaly posted by Brady
WOW!, Nice Shot's the Cant pic on the bottom is now my wallpapper!
i'm backing home just now, i'm happy that u enjoy it....i'm sorry i forgot to post the links to the main gallery page!!!
there u will find some other good pics
main page is this above.....
the site is in italian but is easy to surf ;) however i post the links of wwII's pics separately here:
Macchi 's figther (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale01.htm)
Reggiane figthers (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale02.htm)
fiat's figthers (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale.htm)
bomber (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale03.htm)
other airplanes (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale04.htm)
italian plane with other flags and german plane with italian flag (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/seconda_guerra_mondiale05.htm)
Originally posted by Arlo
Three important words you must not forget:
Spanish
Civil
War
hey Arlo i got only one link but all for u
:p
Spanish Civil War pics (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/guerra_civile_spagnola.htm)
and co complete the list for everyone that it could be interested....
the beginnings of italy war's plane (http://le origini)
wwI italians planes pics (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/grande_guerra.htm)
italian's planes beetwin the two wars (http://www.finn.it/regia/html/fra_le_due_guerre.htm)
and i finish with a pic: the real 4^stormo in fligth 1940 Cr42
(http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/cr42_4st.jpg)
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The reason to add the SM-79 over the Cant is the same reason the B-25 should have been in the planeset instead of the B-26.
1: More widely used.
2: Less uber. Yes, this is a valid reason. If it was just about uber and the MA then the only bomber that needs considering is the B-29. The B-25 would be less intimidating to any IJ medium bomber. The SM-79 would be less intimidating in a med setting but not so handicapped as not to be both interesting and useful in an historical setting.
3: Player familiarity/preference. More players know about the SM-79 and more players prefer to see it modeled. If put to a vote the SM-79 would win hands down ... even with a proactive Cant campaign. Same would have happened in favor of the B-25.
;)
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"1: More widely used."
Numbers used is not a relvent point for inclushion in AH, and The Cant Z.1007 was used every whear the SM 79 was so this is not again a realy valid argument for or aganst it.
"2: Less uber. Yes, this is a valid reason. If it was just about uber and the MA then the only bomber that needs considering is the B-29. The B-25 would be less intimidating to any IJ medium bomber. The SM-79 would be less intimidating in a med setting but not so handicapped as not to be both interesting and useful in an historical setting."
Well this debate is just about the diferences between the Cant Z 1007 and the SM 79, clearly in regards to the MA both would see very little use and both fair just as porley in that enviourment, the adadtion of these or any early war plane is mostly for the SEA or CT or the new ToD areana and their preformances should be considered relative to the time frame and plane set they would lilely be set in. From the Historical prespective the SM 79 was on the way out and the Z 1007 represent's the best of what Itlay had to offer.
"3: Player familiarity/preference. More players know about the SM-79 and more players prefer to see it modeled. If put to a vote the SM-79 would win hands down ... even with a proactive Cant campaign. Same would have happened in favor of the B-25."
This may well be true, the addage " Be carefull what you ask for, you may just get it" springs to mind:) These debates do howeaver serve to preputaute the Thread, which in turn has the added advantage or benifit of increasing awarness on this issue.
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Great Link BigJava, I just went throught all the pick's great high quality pic's!
Do you know anything about this?:
http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/cr32_cd.htm
Is it available anywhear?
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well brady you've convinced me its worth using the Cant Z over the SM79. :)
the fact it was flown over England and Russia are a huge plus point in its favour as more scenarios can use it and the ability to perform all the tasks the SM79 could only at a little better performance means it would be the better choice from a tactical point of veiw.As for arlo's point about it being more widely recognised(SM79) hes probably right but remember HTC seem to like the idea of modeling aircraft we dont see in other sims like the komet, ta152, arado, f4uc etc so maybe they would prefer to model the cant Z over the SM79. For a start we already see the SM79 in another game in these pic's so maybe HTC dont want to have the same aircraft that will be directly compared.
mind you im only guessing here :)
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Damn! Lost one! :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Damn! Lost one! :D
lol :) i folded like a broken deck chair didnt I?
Im weak !! I changed my mind too easily!! Damn that brady!
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Originally posted by brady
Great Link BigJava, I just went throught all the pick's great high quality pic's!
Do you know anything about this?:
http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/cr32_cd.htm
Is it available anywhear?
of course mate.........
i have ceck it just now: well
yes is available!.
it was a insert of the italian magazine"rivista aereonautica" the official journal publishd by the italian defense department and they still sell it separately from the magazine.
it's cost about 6$
but as i have read on the main page of the "rivista aereonautica" seems there is no way to order it with a credit card.
if u are interested i can send them a mail to undestand what do u have to do to order it.
but i think the easyer way it would be that i'll buy it for u and then i'll find a mode to send it to u,
i think that i'm going to buy one for me
;)
so thank to asking me notice about it :D
in case u are interested mail me!
also the Cr's CDROM there is an other CD about the SM79
in conclusion all u are looking for is here already translate by google
rivista aereonautica multimedia shop (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2F195.94.151.87%2Finvendita.htm&langpair=it%7Cen&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) (look at the bottom of this page)
main page not translated (http://195.94.151.87/home1.asp)
P.s. Damned google! the translation is bad but comprehensible
.....the cost is logicaly expressed in Euro:D
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I would love to get both of them, the CR 32 and the SM 79, are they doing more planes?, or are these two the only ones curently available? I could send you a check or mony order in Euro's for the amount and enough to cover shiping, That would be great if you could do that!:), or maybe I could just send them the Mony order and they could send it to me?
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Grazie Java! Il link è molto interessante e non lo conoscevo! :)
Le foto "spagnole" sono molto belle!
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Originally posted by LUPO
Grazie Java! Il link è molto interessante e non lo conoscevo! :)
Le foto "spagnole" sono molto belle!
;) dovere!
anche io sono rimasto meravigliato dalla qualità delle immagini, credo che le ottimizzi con qualche softweare cancellando dalla foto originale i segni del tempo e ottimizzandola poi per un formato PC compatibile.
azzardo questa ipotesi perchè
se noti chiede publicamente se qualcuno abbia notizie di una foto in particolare perchè teme sia un fotomontaggio.....
indi penso che oltre la passione per gli aerei abbia anche quella della fotografia :D
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Originally posted by brady
I would love to get both of them, the CR 32 and the SM 79, are they doing more planes?, or are these two the only ones curently available? I could send you a check or mony order in Euro's for the amount and enough to cover shiping, That would be great if you could do that!:), or maybe I could just send them the Mony order and they could send it to me?
at this time that 2 are the only monographs aviable in Cdrom italian/english version.
the others speek about jet figthers but are in VHS and only in italian.
I mail them today asking what u have to do exactely to order it from foreign.... as soon as the respond i'll mail u ;) with all the details needed!
i'm sure we will find a way to do it :D or this isn't the 22^century!!!!!
happy to be useful Bj :cool:
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TY Sir! for being so helpfull:)
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I almost forgot, my favorate Float Plane from WW2, the Cant Z 506:):
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/47232/0.jpg)
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Originally posted by brady
I have several of the ALI D'ITALIA series, and a few Aviolibri book's, but I would like to expand my colection, any sugestion's?
Yes, only one :D
(http://space.tin.it/io/msantona/FiatCR42.jpg)
Cheers!
Maxo
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I almost forgot, my favorate Float Plane from WW2, the Cant Z 506
(http://regia-aeronautica.gamesurf.it/immagini%20storiche/pict0069.jpg)
(http://regia-aeronautica.gamesurf.it/immagini%20storiche/pict0013.jpg)
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Am I the only ba65 fan ?
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oh cant c506 i can agree for this plane!!! one was in polish service
and on emore
Bring BREDA BA 65 - A 80 to AH2:)
ramzey
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Breda 65 unfortunatly was one of the worst planes of wwII... :(
The Ba.65 sprang from the concept of a flying military jack-of-all-trades, formulated by Colonel Amadeo Mecozzi as he set about procuring a modern ground-attack plane for the Regia Aeronautica. For Mecozzi, the ideal military airplane was one that would be able to perform a wide variety of functions: fighter, light bomber, army cooperation and photo- reconnaissance. Of the several designs submitted to satisfy that specification, that of the Societa Italiana Ernesto Breda,was ultimately selected. Developed in 1932 from the Breda 27 single-seat fighter, the Breda 64 was completed early in 1933 as a cantilever monoplane. The Ba.64 prototype was powered by a Bristol Pegasus radial engine, license-built by Alfa Romeo, in a long-chord cowling, which was later replaced by an Alfa Romeo 125 RC35 engine rated at 650 hp. The Ba.64's undercarriage retracted rearward into the wings. The headrest behind the open cockpit was extended as a streamlined fairing all the way down the fuselage upper decking to the tail. Armament consisted of four 7.7mm Breda-SAFAT guns in the wings and up to 880 pounds of bombs in racks under the wings. The basic problem with the Ba.64 was its size in relation to its power plant. With a maximum speed of 220 mph, the new aircraft lacked the performance to be a very effective attack or reconnaissance plane, let alone a successful fighter. The first production Ba.64s were delivered in the summer of 1936 and were a profound disappointment. The Ba.64's mediocre speed and heavy handling characteristics were anything but fighter like, and its tendency to go into a high-speed stall caused several fatal crashes. In 1937, the Ba.64s took part in a series of well- publicized military maneuvers, but they were withdrawn from service the following year. Modified into two-seaters with a 7.7mm machine gun in the rear, only a small number of Ba.64s were built for the Regia Aeronautica, since Breda was already working on an improved model, the Ba.65. Two Ba.64s were purchased by the Soviet Union in 1938. One was delivered to General Francisco Franco's Nationalist forces in June 1937 and saw brief service during the Spanish Civil War.
Evolved from the Ba.64, the Ba.65 was also a single-seat, all-metal, cantilever low-wing monoplane with aft-retracting main undercarriage. Initially intended as an interceptor and attack-reconnaissance plane the Ba.65 carried wing-mounted armament of two 12.7mm and two 7.7mm Breda-SAFAT machine guns, and provided internal stowage for a 440-pound bomb-load in addition to external ordnance that could total 2,200 pounds. The prototype, which was first flown in 9/35, was powered by a Fiat A80 RC41 18-cylinder, twin-row radial engine with a takeoff rating of 1,000 hp. Production of the Ba.65 began in 1936, the initial model having a Gnôme-Rhône 14K 14-cylinder radial of 900 hp. The single-seat Gnôme- Rhône version of the Ba.65, of which 81 were built, attained a maximum speed of 258 mph at 16,400 feet and 217 mph at sea level. Maximum cruising speed was 223 mph at 13,125 feet, and range was 466 miles with a 440-pound bomb load. The service ceiling was 25,590 feet.
In 12/36, Mussolini decided to give his military personnel some experience in a real conflict, the Spanish Civil War. His program to assist Franco's Nationalists included the establishment of a 250-plane aerial contingent, the Aviazione Legionaria. The first installment of that force consisted of four Ba.65s unloaded on 12/28/36, to be joined by eight more on 1/8/37. In March, the attack planes were transported to Cádiz, along with newly arrived Fiat C.R.32 fighters. The last of the Ba.65s arrived on 5/3 and were formed into the 65th Squadron. Teething troubles were soon experienced with the new planes and not until August did the unit begin operations. On 8/24 one of its pilots scored a unique air- to-air victory when he encountered a lone twin-engine Tupolev SB-2 bomber over Soria and shot it down.
During operations in northern Spain, several Ba.65s were converted to two-seat planes, and one was experimentally fitted with an A360 two-way radio. At the end of the campaign in October, the squadron was transferred and in December the Bredas braved bitter winter weather conditions to take part in the battles for Teruel. After that city fell, the 65th Squadron, bolstered by the arrival of four more Ba.65s, took part in the Aragon offensive, which by 4/15 had succeeded in cutting the Spanish Republic in two. During the Nationalist advance, the Ba.65s harassed retreating Republican troops, attacked artillery batteries and landing grounds, and bombed railway and road junctions. During the Battle of the Ebro in 7/38, the 65th Squadron used its Ba.65s as dive-bombers for the first time, striking at pontoon bridges that the Republicans had thrown across the Ebro River. By 9/38, attrition had whittled the squadron's complement of aircraft down to eight, but six more Ba.65s arrived, and in 1/39 the squadron was ready to take part in the final offensive against Catalonia. The Ba.65s' final mission was flown on 3/24. When the war ended five days later, the 65th Squadron had logged 1,921 sorties, including 368 ground-strafing and 59 dive-bombing attacks. Of the 23 Ba.65s sent to Spain, 12 had been lost. When the airmen of the Aviazione Legionaria returned to Italy in May, they bequeathed their 11 surviving Ba.65s to the Spanish Air Force.
[... continue...]
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While the Ba.65 was being blooded over Spain, a two-seat version, the Ba-65bis, had been developed, and export orders for the Breda assault monoplane had been solicited. Fifteen aircraft with 14K engines were ordered in 1937 by the Royal Iraqi Air Force (RIAF), 13 of which were Ba.65bis two-seat planes equipped with a hydraulically operated Breda L dorsal turret mounting a 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT machine gun; the remaining two were dual-control trainers. Ten single-seat Ba.65s were delivered to the Soviet Union, and in 1938, 20 Ba.65s equipped with Piaggio P.XI C.40 engines, 17 single-seat attack planes and three dual-control trainers, were delivered to Chile. In 1939, 12 Ba.65bis models with Fiat A80 engines and power turrets were ordered by Portugal for its Air Force. In 6/37, a Ba.65 was experimentally fitted with an American Pratt & Whitney R-1830 engine in anticipation of an export order from Nationalist China that was never placed.
When Italy entered World War II in 6/40, the Regia Aeronautica had 154 Breda Ba.65s in its inventory, including 119 fitted with Fiat A80 RC41 engines and a small number of Ba.65bis two-seaters with a manually operated 12.7mm machine gun in the rear gunner's pit rather than the Breda L turret. Owing to the unsatisfactory performance of the Fiat A80 RC41 under desert conditions, all Ba.65s with that power plant were re-engined with the Isotta-Fraschini-built Gnôme- Rhône 14K before being committed to North Africa. In 9/39, Ba.65s equipped the 101st and 102nd Squadrons of the 19th Group of the 5th Stormo, the 159th and 160th Squadrons of the 12th Group, and 167th and 168th Squadrons of the 16th Group, both components of the 50th Stormo. Soon after Italy entered the war on 6/10/40, however, it became clear that the large single-engine attack bomber was as ungainly and vulnerable to enemy fighters as was its British contemporary, the Fairey Battle. During the Italian invasions of France and Greece, Ba.65s were conspicuous by their absence. By mid- 1940, the only Ba.65s in a position to see any combat were those of the 50th Stormo in North Africa, and even they ended up contributing little to Italian operations there. The principal units involved were the 159th Squadron and the 160th Squadron. Usually their missions involved flying about 150 miles to attack British tanks, armored cars and other vehicles from altitudes of about 1,000 feet. Due to a shortage of high-explosive bombs, however, the Bredas usually carried incendiary bombs that caused little destruction on rocky ground or in sand, which tended to contain the fires they caused. Steady attrition, a shortage of spare parts and a realization by the Italian army that the Ba.65s were not really an effective weapon resulted in the replacement of the Bredas in the 160th Squadron with the Fiat C.R.32 quater, a close-support fighter-bomber adaptation of the 1932-vintage C.R.32 biplane fighter. The embarrassing superiority of the C.R.32quater over its supposedly more modern monoplane contemporary was underlined on 8/4/40. Six Ba.65s of the 159th Squadron attacked British vehicles at Bir Taib el Esem, while six Fiat C.R.32s of the 160th Squadron waited 3,000 feet above to follow up their strike. The Bredas were about to make their third and last strafing run when they encountered a Westland Lysander of No. 208 Squadron, escorted by four Gloster Gladiator biplane fighters of No. 80 Squadron. The Gladiators promptly attacked the Bredas downing two of them. At that point, however, the C.R.32s dove on the British fighters, claiming three of the Gladiators. The fourth Gladiator was damaged but returned to its base.
In September, the 168th Squadron, equipped with 14K-powered Bredas, commenced operations alongside the beleaguered 159th. In 12/40 the British went over to the offensive, and the Ba.65s, joined by a few reinforcements from Italy, fought valiantly but vainly to stem the onslaught. At the end of December, the 168th Squadron, its aircraft decimated by foul weather conditions as well as combat losses, was disbanded. At the end of 1/41, the advancing British found six dilapidated Ba.65s lying abandoned at Benghazi airfield. The surviving aircrews of the 159th Squadron were transferred either to fighter squadrons or to dive-bombing units equipped with the Junkers Ju-87B Stuka.
The Ba.65's ill-starred combat career was briefly revived on 5/2/41, when hostilities broke out between British forces in Iraq and that country's anti-British, pro-German chief of the National Defense Government. Among the Iraqi aircraft that attacked the RAF base at Habbaniya that day were some of the 13 Ba.65bis machines that had been delivered to Iraq in 1938 and assigned to No. 5 Squadron, RIAF. Although three British aircraft were destroyed on the ground in the initial strike, subsequent Iraqi sorties were disrupted by Habbaniya's defenders. Later that same day, Flying Officer J.M. Craigie, flying a Gladiator of Habbaniya's ad hoc fighter flight, was about to land when he saw a Ba.65 coming in to bomb the field. Pulling up, he fired at the Breda and forced it to break off its attack, although he failed to bring it down. Over the next few weeks, damage from aerial opposition and ground fire, combined with inadequate maintenance facilities and an insufficient supply of spare parts, eventually grounded all the Iraqi aircraft. Despite some desultory aid from the Germans and Italians, the Iraqis failed to drive out the British, who were soon invading Iraq. On May 31, an armistice was signed ending the Iraqi revolt and the fighting career of the Breda Ba.65.
Article By JDG, Specifications courtesy JDG and Alberto Rosselli.
Specifications
Crew 1 or 2 (Depending on Model)
Horsepower 1,000 HP
Weight 3,490 Kg
War Load Kg. 500/1000m
Engine (1) Fiat A80 RC 41
Max Speed 430 Km/h
Max Ceiling 7,900 (8,300Meters)
Fixed Weapons 2/12,7 Breda Safat (wings), 2 7/7 Breda Safat (wings)(aft)
Range 550/800 Km
Sources:
Jon Guttman, "Italy's Breda Ba.65 was not the best ground-attack plane to see action in World War II--it may well have been the worst"
William Green, Warplanes of the Second World War (10 vol.), Doubleday, 1960-68.
Bill Gunston, World War II Japanese and Italian Aircraft, Chartwell, 1985.
Jonathon Thompson, Italian Civil and Military Aircraft 1930-45, Aero, 1960.
Chris Bishop (Ed.), Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II, Barnes & Noble, 1998.
Christopher Shores & Brian Cull, Dust Clouds in the Middle East, Grub Street, 1996.
Christopher Shores & Hans Ring, Fighters Over the Desert, Arco, 1975.
Enzo Angelucci & Paolo Matricardi, World War II Airplanes (2 vol.), Rand McNally, 1978.
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Yep it was super crappy, it even looks super crappy, thats the best reason to add it to the game. It read one account where a group of ba65s had to be rescued from attacking gloster biplanes by fiat biplanes .
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26753&highlight=breda
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Maxopti1, Yes that would be nice to have:)
Rapace, Nice pick's the lower one I hadent seen before, cool pick:)
LUPO, great read thank's:)
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Ya know the SM 82 would be an awsome Transport plane:
(http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/Regia/SM82-001.jpg)
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Hey Brady, were it comes from your passion for italian planes? Just curious, of course I luv them cause I'm italian! :)
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Well....I have been a WW2 History Buff since I was in Grade school ( I am 35 now), and my pashions for different aspects of WW2 have varied over the years, somtimes the Pacific, Somtimes Europe, ect. I have always felt that The Italian Planes were among the most beautiful of all the WW2 planes, I have favorates for every country but in general I prefer the looks of the Italian planes. One of My Favorate Fighters in AH is the MC 205 and it is one of the most beautiful planes in WW2 imo. I also fell in love with the MC 200 when I was at the Air Force Museum in Dayton Ohio their example of it is just awsome I spent about 30 min just staring at it, when nobody was looking I jumped the rope and touched it:).
I also have a CT Staff interest in the Italian planes, I want to be able to do more Early war set up's with them, Like Greace/Albiana Theater, Italian East Africa, and More early NA set up's, so to that end I am all for adding more Italain planes to the plane set, they would also nead some more British planes like the Galadator to fly aganst.
For later war another Series V fighter would realy be cool, like a Re 2005 or a G.55.
I feal the same way about Japanese planes as well, and would realy like to see some planes added for the USSR and even somthing for France.
I am also kinda sick of seeing the US plane set so full and so many people just wanting another US whatever added, But I have had the time to studdy other countries planes and vehicals and I have developed an appration for many diferent countries planes, you might say I have a complex pallet when it comes to this.
I have also spent more time in recent years reading about All Things WW2 and Italian, Covering the Infentry, Ship's, and Air arm and I have grown to respect more and more Italy's efforts and their capabalit's during the war.
I always enjoy learning more about this subject (WW2) and delving into the Italian aspect as brodened my knowledge base and been fun to boot.:)
It was A World War after all:)
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/47902/0.jpg)
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Imagine an Armed Transport plane:) SM 82 loading Italian Paratropper's:
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/48374/0.jpg)
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We should make some flight togheter with my 205 in MA sometimes :)
(http://lupoweb.supereva.it/Lupo.jpg)
Anyway, if you need some kind of help for the development of a setup for the CT that involves italian planes, just lemme know, I'll be happy to contribute in any way.
Greece and Albania are very involving for me too. A brother of my grandmother died with a CR42 in Albania, in a duel against Gladiators. He shot down one Blenheim and than was shot down himself. He was rewarded with a gold medal to the memory.
If interested you can find his history here. (http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/italy_magaldi.htm)
Also my grandfather was a pilot, he piloted floatplanes and directed the airport of Addis-Abeba, Etiopia. Than the english army came and he went to a concentration camp until the end of the war. Lots of stories from him :).
BTW I cant see your italian para'....
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Thanks for the offer LUPO, I hope we get some more Italian planes from HTC for the CT so we can do more with them. I am going to do a 202 vs P40E set up in the CT at the end of the month that should be fun.
Nice Pick whear was that taken?
I have read parts of that websight before it is a good one lots of good stories. To bad he dident make it throught the war.
Prety amasing your family history, I bet he has some interesting stories, thats a paticulary interesting area realy the Campagine in East Africa, little know in the States but very interesting from what I have read of it. What kind of float planes did he fly?
You shure you cant see it?, I can...
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I think the addition of rarer countries aircraft is a great thing to do in AH.
I think the brazilian P47 is fantastic and is actuallly my favourite scheme
Italian aircfraft add a lot of flair to AH as do the italian squads.Something i feel HTC should really encourage.
Just think if HTC gave us each at least one of our countries a WW2 aircraft! we could form real country specific squads for international fights! :) Id love to fight players flying their correct countries aircraft wouldnt you?? :)
If we got the Italian Cr42 I think id fly it a tremendous amount. Same for the British Gloster gladiator oe the German Henschel Hs 123. All models ive made as a kid and fondly remember.
Oh and btw Iraq flew Me110s and other LW planes. Now that would be a great one to see up in AH.
How about polish aircraft
Czechoslovakia
Netherlands
Yugoslavia
france
Finland
Rumania ??
all of these had their own makes of aircraft too.
If HTC were to add an entire range of aircraft one day you could have all of these with closely matched performances:
Great Britain - 1938 - Gloster Gladiator - 257mph@14.5k - 4xmgs
Germany -1936 - Henschel Hs123 - 212mph@3.9k - 2xmgs(440lbs bombs)
Czechoslovakia - 1935 - Avia B534 - 245mph@14.4k - 4xmgs
Poland - 1935 - PZL P-24g - 254mph@14.7k - 2x20mm;2xmgs (100kg bombs)
Netherlands - 1938 - Fokker D.XXI -286mph@14.5k - 4xmg
Yugoslavia - 1938 - Rogozarski IK3 - 326mph@17.7k - 1x20mm;2xmgs
France - 1938 - Morane-Saunier MS406 - 301mph@16.4k - 1x20mm;2xmgs
Italy - 1939 - Fiat CR42 - 272mph@19.700k - 2xmgs
Italy - 1936 - Breda Ba 65 - 267mph - 4xmgs (2,200lb bombs)
USA - 1940 - Brewster F2a-2 - 323mph@16.5k - 4xmgs (91kg bombs)
Japan - 1937 - Mitsubushi A5M2 - 280mph@6.9k - 2xmgs
Russia - 1937 - Polikarpov I-16/10 - 288mph@9.8k - 4xmgs
others worth note :
Finland - 1944 - Myrky II26 HLeLv - 328mph@10.6k - 4xmgs
Rumania - 1942 - IAR80A - 316mph@13k - 6xmgs
hmmm gimme'
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Ya, I hear that Hazed, the thing is that these planes withen their respective time frames in a CT or SEA set up would provide some great fight's, and as you mentioned earler provide new learning experances which is part of what made AH so apealing in the first place, My first AH kill was in a 205, and the 205 was the first plane I flew in AH:)
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June 27th's CT set up will look like this:):
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/48645/0.jpg)
BTW I highly Recomend this series to anyone interested in Italian planes.
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Yep this series is very good!
But in the next CT setup I want the right carburettor modelled for spitfires (no inverted flight was possible, isnt'it?...). :D
And the sand filter too! :cool:
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Thier will be no Spit's in this set up, it is the one I ran last fall, with the 109E-4, 202 vs the Huricane MK I and the P40E.
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Originally posted by LUPO
Yep this series is very good!
But in the next CT setup I want the right carburettor modelled for spitfires (no inverted flight was possible, isnt'it?...). :D
And the sand filter too! :cool:
Depends what modle Spit and when. The early ones would cut out failry easiyl under negative G, by the end of 1940 they had anti-g devices but would still cut out after sustained negative g. By the end of 41 they were fuel injected and didn't have this problem. Of course the newer versions took longer to get to Africa and the Med since Fighter Command took priority.
With the filter the original Volkes filter was often replaced in the field with a much more streamlined design created at the RAF service base at Aboukir. This "Aboukir" filter was eventually fitted at the factory.
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Nice Interiour Pick's of the Cant Z 1007 from my Ali D'Italia series on it:
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/48884/0.jpg)
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This plane would rock, and the cover art is Way cool:)
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/49145/0.jpg)
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Cool Skins:)
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/49371/0.jpg)
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What about Fiat G.50? Would do favor for both, Finnish and Italian AH fans :D
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#fiiu (http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#fiiu)
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Right On:)
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/49735/0.jpg)
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Re 2000 series:
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/50844/0.jpg)
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I can't think of a single Italian plane I would like added to the planeset..................... ............................. .:rolleyes:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_30_1054696500.jpg)
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Ok, here is my list of Italian planes that I would like to see in AH;
1. Cr. 32 (Gloster Gladiator at same time to REALLY DO Malta)
2. Sm. 79 (Italians really need a bomber of their own)
3. Re. 2000/2001/2002 line (for Jabo)
4. Fiat G-55 (The Italians had CRAPY planes at the beginning but they caught up quick with this design, then they surendered.)
these 4-6 aircraft would really flesh out the Italian planeset. And would go a long way to improve AH.
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"2. Sm. 79 (Italians really need a bomber of their own)"
They do but the Z 1007 is the better choice hear, see the Blue link in my sig for the detail's.
I would love to see the CR 32, but would prefer a CR 42, if I had to chuse just one that is:)