Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AHGOD on June 05, 2003, 04:36:21 PM
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IMO I think these two birds need to brought down in perk price.
152: 8-10
F4U4 20-25
My opinion and that is wha I feel is right.
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seconded. 152 is not that great.
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I got "bounced" by a 152 in my jug last night...it took about 5 minutes before I was able to get the E states evened out and nail him...but truthfully I never felt like he had a chance. To me 152 is a pure waste...on the other hand I think the -4 hog is the dominant plane in the set (non jet). I don't think any other plane can take it 1 vs 1 (obviously pilot skill would need to be about equal). I'd say the 152 should be either unperked or down about where the C-Hog is...I'd like to see the -4 tempest and spitIVX come down a bit, you almost never see them in the MA.
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Wow Humble, he must have been a terrible shot (like me)! :)
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The F4U4 is a waste. Even if you do outfly your opponent(which probably picked you out of 30 cons simply because of your tag) you have to deal with the other lip-smacking point and clickers and by then its probably too late. Yeah the F4U4 is good...for sight-seeing. Racking up at 70 perks it makes me personally reluctant to engage in a fight because against the likes of La7, P51, and Spit(TnB) you simply dont have that much of an advantage to dictate the fight. Or am I flying it wrong? :(
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I concur Rightfoot (well...unless ya 5k and under...where La7 rules all in most aspects)--I assume its advantages are more easily seen at alt...but there are dang few fights at 'alt'
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Originally posted by RightF00T
The F4U4 is a waste. Even if you do outfly your opponent(which probably picked you out of 30 cons simply because of your tag) you have to deal with the other lip-smacking point and clickers and by then its probably too late. Yeah the F4U4 is good...for sight-seeing. Racking up at 70 perks it makes me personally reluctant to engage in a fight because against the likes of La7, P51, and Spit(TnB) you simply dont have that much of an advantage to dictate the fight. Or am I flying it wrong? :(
Perhaps you ARE flying it wrong. I've managed to go 89/5 with the F4U-4 over the past few tours, with just one loss to fighters, and I was out of gas trying to stay airborne long enough to get to the server dump after a reset. Those remaining four went to ack and flak.
Like any other fighter, one must fly it enough to learn its strengths and weaknesses (although there are no significant areas of weakness). Check out DoctorYO's post here: F4U-4 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88262&pagenumber=2)
Spend some time in it in the DA. I fly the P-47 a lot too, and the 4Hog is on a different level altogether.
When you consider that the F4U-4 in AH is modeled from the most conservative performance figures I've found, just imagine if how it would do with the numbers generated by Grumman (which tested one in mid 1945) where it climbed at 4,100 ft/min from sea level and achieved 390+ mph on the deck (those numbers come from the Grumman test pilot assigned to wring out the fighter).
In the 4Hog, you have the acceleration of the 109G10, the climb of a Spit IX, the roll of a 190, unmatched dive acceleration, the guns of a P-51D, 446 mph at 26k, stall fighting capability able to eat up Yaks and possibly the best energy retention in the game. All of that and one could make a decent argument that it's somewhat porked!!!!
Finally, more F4U-4Bs where built than F4U-1Cs. Picture this monster with 4 Hispanos and 900+ rounds of ammo! Now, THAT would be worth 70 perk points.
My regards,
Widewing
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What Widewing said except it doesnt hold e as well as the 152 and 51D at least, and doesnt hold a candle to yaks in stall fighting.
8 perks for the 152, 25 for the -4.
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8 perks for 152
30 perks for F4U-4
20 perks for spit14
40 perks for Tempest
5 or 6 perks for F4U-c
:)
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These two planes shine at High alt. Concidering most of the fights,(the very large Majority) happen from 15 down to 5k, these two planes are always out of place and really arent that much of a threat. Espesially the Ta152. This thing is a dog until you get over 20k. Once up there not much will be able to touch you. There are some who Im sure will disagree with me in that respect but the Ta152 was designed for very High alt operations. The Hog4 is just like any plane as far as Im concerned. It is a screamer when in its zone, but with only a slight speed advantage in most cases its not all that fun to fly considering its cost. I know some guys who love to fly them and swear by the things, but when the get shot up and die they are madder then a wet hen. To me its just an over perked Hog. Like the NIKI and the CHog situation. Whats the difference? Chog was perked due to its cannons and the fact that everyone was getting HO'd by the CHog. Now they just use NIKI's to do the HOing with.
Getting back on track, Ive seen guys eat Hog4's for lunch in pony's. So does that mean we should perk the pony??? To me its how you fly the things that really makes the difference. A Hog4 is no better than Spit1 if the pilot flying it does not know his plane. So in the end I agree with the fact that it is indeed perked WAY too much. As for the Ta152, usless.... Ive run them down in ponys at 10K. They are just horridly slow at low alt.
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Jeffer
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I think they are both overperked. Along with the Spit14
But I'd also like to see the -4 and the 14 lose thier perk icon...
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Widewing...I know you tested the -4 against the G-10 in acceleration at sea level and they were identical. I'd be interested to see them tested against eachother at higher alts. I think the -4 would start to fall back. At sea level the speed and climb are pretty nice but it starts to fall behind a number of planes higher up.
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*My suggested perk values
Me262: 100 points
Spitfire14: 20 points
Tempest5: 30 points
F4U-4: 20 points
Ta152H-1: 10 points
F4U-1C: 8 points
Me163B: 70 points
Ar234: 50 points
Why I think so, can be found on the link on my sig.
ps) Our AH Ta152H-1, is virtually a P-47 with better WEP and higher maximum speed, shi**y guns and a teenseey weenseey better maneuverability.
Kind of hard to imagine our Ta152H being able to duke it out in sustained turn fights against a Tempest, eh? But then again, our Typhoon and Tempest almost out turns the 109G-2..
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They're probably not as performing as their price is worth, but it's also because the arena is set to not favor late war over early war.
Kweassa, the 152 isnt as much a whale as the 47s in terms of lightness of controls but isn't as tame as they are in the end of bout stall fighting. The tail wag of it is worse a handicap than the 47's voluntary E bleeding and stubborn nose-up stall.
The guns aren't crappy, they just stress good aim and timing to land good bursts.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
*My suggested perk values
Me262: 100 points
Spitfire14: 20 points
Tempest5: 30 points
F4U-4: 20 points
Ta152H-1: 10 points
F4U-1C: 8 points
Me163B: 70 points
Ar234: 50 points
Alright, so this means that if you're a bishop, these planes will cost:
Me262: 160
Spit14: 35
Temp: 50
F4U-4: 35
Ta152: 16
F4U-1C: 13
Me163: 110
Ar234: 80
Of course these are rough guesses based on what the perk modifier seems to hover around. Still an improvement though, I can't remember the last time I was on and a 262 cost less than 300.
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Hey aces,
Like any other fighter, one must fly it enough to learn its strengths and weaknesses
Thats it.
The problem is only in the pilot's head.Most pilots think they will loose cash instead of perkpoints when failing.
Earning perks and loosing perks is part of the fun.
Lots of pilots fly much better in non-perkplanes than in perkplanes.In perkplanes they fly granny-like, and always beeing afraid of the possibility of loosing their perks instead of learning to fly the plane at its limit.
I guess,there is not very BIG difference between ,lets say, a spit9 and a spit14.
If spit9 is 100% and spit14 is 115%, but a pilot only uses 70% of the planes capabilities ,he shure will think that spit14 is too expensive.
And please..dont talk about making the ta152 cheaper.Unperk that plane till its FM is corrected to its real-life capability.And then double its perks.
respectfull,
Ecke
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Originally posted by mjolnir
Alright, so this means that if you're a bishop, these planes will cost:
Me262: 160
Spit14: 35
Temp: 50
F4U-4: 35
Ta152: 16
F4U-1C: 13
Me163: 110
Ar234: 80
Of course these are rough guesses based on what the perk modifier seems to hover around. Still an improvement though, I can't remember the last time I was on and a 262 cost less than 300.
If you are outnumbering your enmy by that much you shouldn't be able to afford a perk ride. Thank god for the modifier. Bishops, crack me up.
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I've had 1vs1 in Ta152 vs. P51D 190D9 P47D30 (in MA and DA) they all had no chance in a long fight. Ta152 holds the E and could outturn the others (maybe cause i was light and they where full loaded, maybe cause the pilots where unexperienced)
I've had 1vs1 in Ta152 vs. N1K Spit Hurry and they never had a chance cause u simply can run (dive) away, climb, turn back and u have the E advantage for BnZ.
There where only a few Ta152 produced and I dont want to see them often so I'm OK with the current perkies regardless if the FM is right or not.
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Well Widewing, I could have 20:1 kill/death ratio in a P-51D if I was scared to lose my perks by dying in it. :)
The F4U4 and 152 really are not any diferent from an LA7 performance wise.
Lowering the perk cost is a good idea, 12 perks for the 152 and 18 perks for the F4U4 would be a great start. Too bad they cant perk the La7 at 5 perks ;)
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AFAIK, the AH TA is a TA-152 H0 labelled H1. I`d like to see a real H1 in AH2.
She`s a great killer, once you get used to the german cannons you`ll discover the brutal firepower.
She can outturn D-Ponys and Jugs and Hogs.
So she`s perked at a price. Would I only have to pay 8 perks, she`d be nothing special, just a better 190.
I suggest changing the icons to the base type (190 or F4U) - that would help the "AXE Effect" of 25 bishes converging on you.
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strictly stall limit radius speaking, the 152 doesnt outturn either ponies, jugs or hogs.
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I guess I do not understand the hype and such of introducing new perk planes, then placing them on a scale where they are seldom used
I'd love to pounce around in a 152 in the MA but for the current perk cost, and the bumpersticker-icon that says "I WASTED A LOT OF PERKS, COME NAIL ME IN MASS NUMBERS" is a turn off :p
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anything that makes for more perk planes being seen in the MA is a very bad idea.
The arena is timid enough without adding even more late war hit and run away high alt late war planes..
The only reason that perk planes don't bother people is because we don't see em very often. I doubt that there is anyone here that likes to see a perk plane circling around above them waiting to take a cowardly little shot when they think no one is looking.... mostly the perkies are annoying.
lazs
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The cost is not an issue, it's the gangbang tags.
Double the costs if need be, but remove the gangbang tags.
Perk planes should be fun to fly, afterall thats why we're spending perks to fly them. The cost doesnt matter provided flying the plane is fun in the first place. The tags remove any chance of having any fun in them.
The f4u4, 152, spit14 are all excellent planes, which can compete on equal terms with the best of the free planes. They do not dominate the free planes. They are good planes, that should remain perked, but they shouldn't have to deal with the gangbangs brought on by, and only by, thier tags.
Comparisons between k/d ratios of free and perked planes is irrelevent. I bet if you perked the la7 and p51(not saying they should be) they would have k/d ratios similar to the f4u4/spit14/152.
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Innom...thank you for the kills stats for us Netscape users. :)
F4i
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What Inno said.
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Originally posted by streetstang
Ive seen guys eat Hog4's for lunch in pony's. So does that mean we should perk the pony??? To me its how you fly the things that really makes the difference.
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Jeffer
If the pilots are equal a pony doesnt have a chance against the -4, but thats true with all the planes. Pilot ability will carry the day 1 vs 1 most of the time.
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…stall fighting capability able to eat up Yaks…
I would have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. When we first got the -4 I found a lot of people trying to turn fight the thing like it was a stall fighter. It’s not. It’s the same hog just a bit faster and more prop torque. Get down to low, slow, and stalling with a bit of fuel in her belly and the prop will throw you into the ground quicker than the con.
As far as perkies and icons, I’d like to see them change but personally I think it’s a perception issue. Everyone is just more self conscious when they’re spending perks.
I flew the -4 for a few tours as a JABO aircraft. I had about the same k/d ratio as any other aircraft I flew. That goes with just about any other perk aircraft I’ve flown. Yeah, the k/d could have been higher and I could have been flying “safer” too.
Charge more, less, alter the icon, fix the FM of this or that, same old same old for over a year and I think HT made it clear through silence that nothing is going to be changed.
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If you are gonna fly a plane with a huge advantage in the arena then your icon should identify it as such.
leave the icons alone but make all the perk rides cost 50% more.
lazs
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Someone gimme Lazs vectors ... i wanna ruin his fun :p
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well actually.... you trying would be.... fun.. I know my squaddies apreciate your effort.
lazs
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Originally posted by Zippatuh
…stall fighting capability able to eat up Yaks…
I would have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. When we first got the -4 I found a lot of people trying to turn fight the thing like it was a stall fighter. It’s not. It’s the same hog just a bit faster and more prop torque. Get down to low, slow, and stalling with a bit of fuel in her belly and the prop will throw you into the ground quicker than the con.
A squadmate and I took a Yak-9U and the F4U-4 to the TA and worked on stallfighting. Both took off with 25% fuel. At 100-120 mph, the 4Hog has MUCH better control during 2 G maneuvering. The Yak had a tendency towards controls reversal, leading to a flat spin. On the other hand, the 4Hog merely required a slight easing of back pressure to avoid rolling into the low wing. Also worth mentioning was the remarkable rudder authority of the 4Hog. You can reverse your turn with rudder alone, whereas any significant opposite rudder input would send the Yak into a flat spin. Torque was less of an issue with the Corsair than with the Yak, and it was easy to counteract with a bit of rudder.
At 100-120 mph, the 4Hog OWNS the Yak-9U. In any really low-speed scissors fight, the 4Hog is better than the Yaks, La-7, P-51, 109, 190 and so on.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Frost
Widewing...I know you tested the -4 against the G-10 in acceleration at sea level and they were identical. I'd be interested to see them tested against eachother at higher alts. I think the -4 would start to fall back. At sea level the speed and climb are pretty nice but it starts to fall behind a number of planes higher up.
Same test, this time at 25,000 feet. 25% fuel, fuel burn at .001. adjust throttle until speed is steady at 200 mph. Apply full power and WEP. Record time to get to 300 mph. The 109G-10 did not have gondolas.
Results:
Bf 109G-10: 35 seconds
F4U-4: 33 seconds
At 25k, the advantage, although slight, goes to the Corsair, and for maneuvering, the Corsair is much better at any speed. Especially up high where the 109 gets into compressibility at considerably lower speeds than the F4U-4.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by moot
strictly stall limit radius speaking, the 152 doesnt outturn either ponies, jugs or hogs.
At 300mph+ it feels like you can always outturn said enemies. I don't have exact test data, but attacks on P51,hog and jug seem easier than against a LA7 or N1K.
When getting too fast, Immelmann and come back again. 1:1, you'll kill the 51/f4u/p47.
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Don't see a reason to perk either one of them. The disparity between the 152 and -4 and other late war craft isn't that great, unless you want to fly the 152 at 40K and shoot down spacecraft on re-entry.
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got 20 kills in f4u4 last night (one sortie) .... trust me, it's uber
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I agree with most but leave the jet at 200 perks to fly. The amount we see in the MA now is perfect.
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Gotta agree about the perk-tag thing...like playin 'smear the queer' on football field..EVERYONE is after you---and utterly bogus to know difference from, say, spit14 and spit9 at 6k..(how different are they up close?)...and does F4u4 have ANY readily obvious differences from F4d? mebbe have different paint schemes for perk rides, if there HAS to be a difference...at least THAT wont show up till ya a few hundred out
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Manedew...there are people out there that have probably landed that many in a 205. Doesn't mean the 205 needs to be perked.
The -4 probably needs to be perked, but the cost is too high for the performance of the plane relative to the performance of some of the nonperked planes. Can't really compare it to the performance of the perked planes cause of the 152 ;)
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The Ta152 in AH is a Ta152 H-1 in every way except for preformance above 35k where the GM1 is undermodelled, drasticly undermodelled or just modelled with it's poorest performance.
As for TA152 being like a LA7 performance wise is wrong, LA7 is 25mph faster at the deck and climbs alot better.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
As for TA152 being like a LA7 performance wise is wrong, LA7 is 25mph faster at the deck and climbs alot better.
... and turns better and accelerate better and handles better and...
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Originally posted by Manedew
got 20 kills in f4u4 last night (one sortie) .... trust me, it's uber
wowk, what about the guys who land 22 kills in 38s and we wont even mention the La7s now?!?!? Do those a/c get perks too. I think that a plane like the La7 should be perked because any retard can get in and fly em. Hogs are one of the few planes in here which to take a decient level of skill to fly and be sucessful in. And while we are on the subject of planes that arent and should be perked,,, NIK Vs Chog... Perfect example. We had the Chog perked because of it leathal guns. Ok fine..... Now we have those same guys who sprayed rounds of 20mm all over the sky now in NIKs doing the same. Is the NIK perked??? NOPE. The perked rides in here are so over looked and over estamated its not even funny. The planes that should be perked arent, and the ones that take some level of skill to fly are give 70-80 perks!!! (ie F4U-4)
Jeffer<>
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Widewing,
Was that Corkey Meyer who flew the F4U-4 for Grumman?
You wouldn't happen to have any other info on that report or interview?
I just ran into Bob McClurg from the Blacksheep squadron over the weekend at the Reading Pa WW2 Airshow. He has a new book coming out. It is very hard to get subjective aircraft opinions from those guys. The more you talk to them the more you realize the were just regular guys (very Young) who were doing a job. The Aircraft were really secondary to survival and friends.
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BTW,
I have test data on the -4 that makes ours look like it's flying with bricks in the trunk.
Nothing will change however until we get rid of the perk tags/bulleyes.
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The perk costs are fine,they vary anyways with side numbers...But it's time to GET RID of the PERK TAGS.
Perk tags are too much like BOLD WORDS in a sentence or paragraph.
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Duedel, I've made acceleration tests with those two at deck level and WEP and without WEP. Ta152 is nowhere near LA7. Nor can it climb with it. Turn rate is about the same while the LA7 is ALOTY friendlier to fly.
Ta152 has nothing on the La7 at deck level. Well, ok, it does have a 30mm.
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Keep the perk tags so that people go after em... Also... increase the perks earned for killing pee 51's, dee 9's and la7's aong with the g10.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Keep the perk tags so that people go after em... Also... increase the perks earned for killing pee 51's, dee 9's and la7's aong with the g10.
lazs
Let's keep the PERK tags and add NME player name TAGS......
I just don't see the difference.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Let's keep the PERK tags and add NME player name TAGS......
I just don't see the difference.
Now THAT is a great idea!!!
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Widewing,
Was that Corkey Meyer who flew the F4U-4 for Grumman?
You wouldn't happen to have any other info on that report or interview?
I just ran into Bob McClurg from the Blacksheep squadron over the weekend at the Reading Pa WW2 Airshow. He has a new book coming out. It is very hard to get subjective aircraft opinions from those guys. The more you talk to them the more you realize the were just regular guys (very Young) who were doing a job. The Aircraft were really secondary to survival and friends.
I only have what Corky told Bodie. However, I believe Corky has written about this testing. I know that Grumman tested the F4U-4 against the F7F-1 and F8F-1. Both were far more agile (especially the F8F, which was considered more maneuverable than the Hellcat, but with staggering acceleration and climb). Like the F4U-4, the Bearcat could push 390 mph on the deck, and climb at better than 4550 fpm. Picture this monster in AH. Hellcat turning ability, faster and better climbing than the La-7, it would dominate the Tempest, easily in fact. How good was acceleration?
Grumman testing showed that when the F6F-5 and F8F-1 took off together, the F8F was passing 2,000 ft before the Hellcat had its gear up. Indeed, the F6F-5 required 800 ft of runway to get airborne, whereas the F8F-1 was up in half that distance.
Now add in the F7F, similar climb to the Bearcat, even better acceleration, and it was reportedly a better turner than the P-38L. Oh, it also managed 394 mph on the deck!. Even more daunting is the fact that the F7F-1 was armed with four Hispanos AND four .50s! The F7F-2N, which was the predominate version in service at the war's end, was a bit slower on the deck, and lost the 4 fifties. However, it was as fast as the F4U-4, Spit XIV or 109G-10 at altitude (445 mph at 26,400 ft).
Now, some will argue that neither of these fighters saw combat. However, more of them were in service with frontline squadrons than Ta 152s. Unlike Germany's situation (where the war came to them), they had to be transported with all the required logistics from the east coast to the western Pacific. Moreover, the F7F-2N WAS flying combat patrols, they just had no targets and the war ended days later. F8Fs where aboard carriers inbound to Japan. Both types were operational. Likewise, the P-51H had begun combat ops about a week before the surrender. Once again, the lack of enemy aircraft prevented them from getting blooded before Japan tossed in the towel. I'd like to see all three types added to this game some day, albeit heavily perked.
Of course, there are many others that should be developed first, especially Japanese aircraft. There's a few German aircraft missing that were relatively common, same for Soviets. A few Italian A/C are needed too. We should also have some more early-war types as well as the late-war P-47N. Personally, I'd like to see the P-63A added as it was a mid-war fighter, made in fairly large numbers and saw considerable combat.
My regards,
Widewing
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NME player name tags would be awsome.
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yep wide... seems that if kurt tank was drawing an aircraft and his blueprints got bombed then that plane "saw combat" in most sims.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep wide... seems that if kurt tank was drawing an aircraft and his blueprints got bombed then that plane "saw combat" in most sims.
lazs
Those German aircraft I'd like to see would be mostly early war types, such as the Bf109D, Fw 190A-1, Dornier Do 17 and He 111.
For the Italians, I'd like the Fiat CR.42 and G.55. Add the S.M.79 too.
Japanese need the Ki-84, Ki-43, Ki-44, J2M3, Ki-100 for fighters. Add the Ki-45-KAI for attack and the H8K "Emily" flying boat.
Soviets need the MiG-1 or MiG-3, Yak-1, Yak-9D, Yak-3 and Pe-2 for attack.
The Brits could use a bomber version of the Mosquito, such as the B.IV model. Give them the Spitfire LF.Mk.VIII (Clipped wing, low altitude version) and the Mustang Mk.1A too.
I'd like to see the French Dewoitine D.520 too.
For the U.S., I'd like to see the Brewster F2A-1/329, P-39D or P-39Q. I've already mentioned the rest, except for the P-47M and P-38G.
Of these listed, 13 are early-war aircraft. I am also of the opinion that at least one map should be in the rotation where two large land masses exist, separated by as many as 6 sectors. On one land mass, everything is enabled. on the other, only aircraft in service prior to July of 1943 will be enabled. Any idiot willing to fly 6 sectors to bring in a late-war fighter is welcome to waste his time. A string of small, closely set islands will keep CVs from crossing to the other half of the map, keeping the hotrod F4U-4 and its kin away from the early-war side.
Certainly any map can be modified to restrict late-war fighters to specific fields, as they regularly do in the CT now. This could provide a buffer in each corner of the map where early-war fighters will have fewer encounters with La-7s and the like. However, the first idea is less restrictive and allows for everyone to do their favorite thing limited only by a 150 miles of open water.
Once AH2 is up and running, perhaps HTC can address the concept of divided maps.
My regards,
Widewing
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I would like to see the f4f-3 and the early f6f. the bearcat and tigercat would make great perk rides.
lazs
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Widewing,
Rudder input on most of the Russian stuff at slow speeds causes problems doesn’t it?
Here is where I was coming from. Even though your testing showed that with similar conditions the 4 was much better at stall speeds than the yak I would never think to bring it to a turn fight. Also by saying “a bit of fuel in her belly”, I’m suggesting at least 50% if not 75%, not 25%.
You did the testing and having flown the yak a little I know what you are talking about with the rudder. Stall fighting better than a yak, yes. Turn fighting better than a yak, no.
Reading what you had I got the impression someone new would take it that stall or turn fighting is the best way to fly the ensign eliminator and it’s not. It is much better as an energy fighter with its E retention and roll characteristics.
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at stall speeds, the Yak can kill the -4 easily, it is much lighter and can bounce around while the -4 is too heavy to follow. No way the -4 kills the 9U in any set of maneuvers under 200mph at least.
Maybe if you are doing vert on-offs, but even then the lighter plane can pull out for an overshoot or go from lag to lead stall position easily.
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The f4u4 has some of the worst prop torque of any plane in AH(the spit14 is the only plane i can think of which has worse torque) It's an even tougher beast to keep flying than the other f4u's.
While slow and with flaps out the f4u4 is a rather maneuverable plane, able to at least easily turn inside of an la7. Provided the pilot is good enough not to spin the corsair.
The problem is, behind that la7 is the pack of spits and nikis with perk tags in thier eyes.