Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: humble on June 06, 2003, 01:02:39 PM
-
Every once in awhile you run into a situation that makes it clear just how little you really know and how much room you have to "grow" in ACM...l
ast night I was flying a 205 over the "big Island between the Vehicle bases. I'd burned the wingtanks, aux and was down to about 60% on the main (bout perfect for T&Bing) I was wandering around SE of V22 looking for inbounds focused on the furball in the valley or setting up to jabo 22. Anyway noticed a 38 above me out over the valley (I was 8k or so he 12K)...didnt take him long to settle on me as the logical target to engage...
we went a few passes while I nuetralized his E a bit...then I hung my tail out and got the overshoot I wanted and swung around to follow him up...we ended up in a vertical E/angles fight of some kind...few loops some obliques to some kind of decending vertical scissor...anyway 99% of the time a 38 without E to get away is toast...obviously flaps and dive brake helped him at the end but where he beat me was up high.
How do you balance angles vs E in the vertical...I'm always amazed at that 1 or 2% that seem able to deny me a shot at 300-400 in that vertical fight. Since I'm "flying for score" this tour I cleaned up (once I saw he had reestablished angles superiority) rolled 90 degrees away and took my 5 scalps home (minus an elevator he removed on my egress). Normally I'd of stayed and just pushed my now bad spot by mini zooming instead of extending hoping he'd need to clean up engough to give me one last front quarter shot as he came back up into me.
Anyway...I'd love comments and thoughts on fighting in the vertical...if I'm on the recieving end I seem to feel like I'm a "floater" at the top. My own quess would be I'm bleeding a bit to much speed prior to heading back down.
Asked who it was a couple times but never got a response...anyway was great flying whoever you were.
-
First tip - Unless you have a superior amount of E, don't try to engage a P-38 in a vertical fight.
Ack-Ack
-
Originally posted by humble
How do you balance angles vs E in the vertical...I'm always amazed at that 1 or 2% that seem able to deny me a shot at 300-400 in that vertical fight.
The short answer to success in a vertical turn, is to use a lead pursuit trajectory over the top, and lag pursuit at the bottom. On the downside of the loop, you should time the transition from lag to lead when you judge that you can make over the top speed. In similar aircraft, co-e, that should clinch it every time.
Unfortunately, when you are engaged against an aircraft that can use the vertical effectively at lower speeds than you can, it won't work, because it will be able to stay inside your loop.
If you have an energy advantage, there are three options. A spiral climb, in the hope that he will lose so much energy trying to follow you up in the turn, that he will be forced to go nose low, at which time you can drop in behind him. Alternatively you might have used a vertical extension, with the same intention, but a much steeper climb. The difference is that in the spiral climb you use the turn to stay out of weapons parameters, and in the vertical extension, you need to be able to separate from the bandit enough to be at a range where a good shot from low speed isn't possible. The last option, and undoubtedly the safest and wisest, (albeit the least fun) is to use a zero g extension to get out of range as quickly as possible with the intention of gaining enough energy at a safe distance, to re-enter the fight with an advantage. Depending on your fuel or damage situation, you can do the same thing, but with the intention of bugging out, and leaving the fight for a safe return to base, which is exactly what you did.
In Aces High, the P-38 with full flaps can loop at very low speed, and retain enough control to make the first two options very dangerous indeed, so I believe you chose the correct option!
Well done!
Badboy
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
First tip - Unless you have a superior amount of E, don't try to engage a P-38 in a vertical fight.
Ack-Ack
As the "bouncie" I really didnt have much choice in dictating the fight...once the E states had reached a point where I felt he couldn't simply rope me I went to angles...I'd guess he was possitive E by a bit but I went from neg E neg angles to neg E with a strong angles edge...eventually he scraped off enough E to nuetralize my angles (without giving me a look :()...and I used my temporary E advantage that resulted to exit stage right...most of the 38 drivers I run into cant exploit the 38 in the vertical beyond a straight rope however.
-
Originally posted by Badboy
The short answer to success in a vertical turn, is to use a lead pursuit trajectory over the top, and lag pursuit at the bottom. On the downside of the loop, you should time the transition from lag to lead when you judge that you can make over the top speed. In similar aircraft, co-e, that should clinch it every time.
Badboy
Badboy,
Thanks for the input...I wish I had this one on film...I couldnt seem to pull lead on him at any point...I was well inside 400 for 3-4 "loops" in the vertical oblique and simply could not get my nose out of lag at any point...I felt like I was flying the "inside" track and he the outside...then we were in some kind of spiral scissors (I'm flying locked on to him views wise so its a feel thing)...after three or four revolutions I felt like he had "flattened out" and was going to roll over on top off me so I took advantage of his bad vis to get a head start out of dodge....since I still had a bunch of speed I'm guessing he'd chopped,popped and hit the speed brake to force me out in front. I was off the gas but still 230-250 when I broke off.
-
DO NOT get into a TnB style vertical fight with these two planes unless your in one too The moment you see this occur go nose low and get the hell outta dodge.
-
I think the key here is that you need to equalise E states before you start turning with him.
Split S every time he makes a pass, climb back up, tease him just enough to make him turn & blow E. Without giving him a decent shot.
-
38s in general are the single hardest plane to predict in AH IMO.... 9 times out of 10 they are easy meet, mainly because most people don't understand how to fly them. But the 1 of 10 is an expert and are very hard to beat in any plane. It's not unlike flying a P-40E, people assume you are an easy kill and blow everything on poor passes because they are over-confident in their plane's ability - usually too late.
What I've found about fighting the better pilots in the game is that they don't fly for Snap Shots. They fly position first - shots second when they are easy & devastating.
I like the 205 vs 38 match-up, is a good fight if both pilots are competent. Says alot about your skill that you survived...:cool:
-
The chances are, you underestimated the P-38 a bit. It's not surprising - many of even the best pilots have a tendency to do so.
For a long time people used to make fun of the P-38 in these boards, emphasizing the "good plane overall, but best in nothing" aspect - well, :) some close comparisons have proved that while the AH P-38L is indeed 'best in nothing' in individual analysis of the may attributes, when those things come together as a whole, surprisingly, the P-38L is a magnificent plane for combat. Here's the link where people discussed the P-38L (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84898&highlight=kweassa) a while back.
As you can see from my analysis there, the P-38L is a real killer! Probably nothing short of the planes that turn as about as good as the Spit9, can out maneuver a P-38L in a close-quarters, rolling scissors combat.
...
I remember an incidence where I engaged an enemy P-38L in a Bf109G-2 - I think it is simular to the situation you have met. The P-38L pilot wasn't particularly good, and I quickly neutered his E state to about as equal as mine. But it became quite problematic when he decided to just keep pulling loops!
Contrary to from what I first thought, it became evident that no matter how hard I try to follow his loop after loop after loop, he wasn't going to drain enough E for me to catch him on his next loop attempt!
Normally, when some other planes do this, usually a clever management of how hard you pull the stick(exactly as suggested by Badboy in his first post, first sentence) can earn you enough E advantage to nail him on his third or fourth loop attempt.
Even planes that are as maneuverable as Spitfires can fall prey to this - when a Spit loops very tight, he's gonna pull hard on the stick, meaning that he spends a lot of E for that maneuver. So, when he goes upwards into a loop, you follow loosely, ease up on the stick. While the Spit conitnues the loop downwards, you're still going up.. and by the time the Spit comes up again, thinking he's gonna catch you, you can shift yourself into a classic double immelmann to rope him.
But no, not in the case of the P-38L. The P-38L is a rare plane where continuous loops, can actually be an effective and simple counter move to the inexperienced, due to the fact that the P-38L accelerates well(gains enough E to provide for the next E-bleeding tight loop), climbs well(less of a burden when the flight path shifts upwards), turns well(can effectively keep a tight loop radius without excessive E-bleeding), zooms well(it loops fast), and also, is torque-absent(if needed, can resort to extreme low-speed, elongated loops without fear of a flat spin).
So what happened was that I couldn't get enough lead in any of the loops I followed - thus, I had to do some other things to finally nail him. Since I knew he wasn't going to suddenly switch to a long elongated immelmann/hammerhead, but just keep doing tight radius loops, I switched the pure vertical contest into a semi-vertical one. When he went into a pure vertical loop, I went a 45 degrees slanted loop, something resembling a high yoyo, so when he came down from the loop, I didn't follow him at his six, but rather met his 4 or 8 oc angle. The pretext to this method was that I absolutely knew that he'll keep looping. If the P-38L had seen me doing this, and changed to a long extended immelmann style loop, I would have been pressed to defensive.
So effectively, if you get in a situation where a P-38L keeps looping and you can't nail him in the first few phases, then it means you've fallen into a situation where the P-38L neutered your E advantage in turn, and can gain the upperhand in tactical advantgae if he was smart enough to realize that.
-
38s aren't so hard to kill. Usually they're either loaded down with rockets and bombs, or the first maneuver the pilot pulls in a bounce is a loop. So, you come in and see he's light, just aim a little high and wait for him to start his loop. If he's heavy, just go in a little offset in his blind spot and get in close before you squeeze the trigger.
-
Originally posted by gofaster
38s aren't so hard to kill. Usually they're either loaded down with rockets and bombs, or the first maneuver the pilot pulls in a bounce is a loop. So, you come in and see he's light, just aim a little high and wait for him to start his loop. If he's heavy, just go in a little offset in his blind spot and get in close before you squeeze the trigger.
Tactics like that are only effective against novice or inexperienced pilots. Get a vet in the P-38 (or any other plane for that matter) and the tactics dramatically change.
Ack-Ack
-
Originally posted by gofaster
38s aren't so hard to kill.
lol.... like I said, 90% are easy, the other 10% - practically impossible in a 1v1.
To quote a squaddie, ManeTMP. "The 38 is the only plane in the game with an advantage on ALL other planes. Either it will outturn you, or it will outrun you."
Anyone who'd disagree needs to go to the DA with KAPPA, ACK-ACK, ManeTMP or Fester/Citabria (just to name a few) and try a 1 on 1. You're opinion will change...
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
The chances are, you underestimated the P-38 a bit. It's not surprising - many of even the best pilots have a tendency to do so....
So effectively, if you get in a situation where a P-38L keeps looping and you can't nail him in the first few phases, then it means you've fallen into a situation where the P-38L neutered your E advantage in turn, and can gain the upperhand in tactical advantgae if he was smart enough to realize that.
I don't think I underestimate much at all any more...like all of us (at least most of us) I'll get greedy/stupid now and again but 95% of the time I'll fly the situation as I see it...normally that will result in a solid shot eventually. I think you may have hit the nail on the head here...as soon as I had bled down the e state...remember I'm the "bouncie" not the aggressor...I took my angles and assumed the safest place I could find...behind the con. Normally once I'm inside 400 solidly on a bogies 6 I'll eventually get a shot. Here he got stronger every loop...then we went to some kind of vertical obliques scissors to a spiral dive type scissors...obviously he got stronger as we went along...only saving element was I know he was forcing me out front so I picked my spot and bugged out as he slowed down.
-
Originally posted by scJazz
DO NOT get into a TnB style vertical fight with these two planes unless your in one too The moment you see this occur go nose low and get the hell outta dodge.
Your not going to outrun a 38 in a 205, in my opinion "extending" just gives the 38 an added edge by giving away alt. unless others intervene he'll catch you. to me your best option is to initiate an angles fight at your alt. The more E you can bleed out of him while you still have alt to trade for E the greater chance you have of killing him.
Summing things up from the comments above I simply ran into a 10%er...he bounced me (maybe underestimated me) I nuetralized his E and gained significant angles...he went defensive (if he'd tried to extend I'd of hosed him) nuetralized my angles gain (denied me any kind of shot)...rebuilt his E enough to put me on defensive by getting the "over" me and on my 3-9 line...then tried to flush me out in front as he forced me back down...so I disengaged while I could...had enviornment been different he'd of caught me eventually however he choose to zoom up ...nother sign of a 10%er vs getting caught up in a second go around with me on the deck near (for him) a hostile field.
Guess my other option would of been ghosts suggestion of flying the "under" totally...think I did split-s on him at least once...but 3rd pass he went under looking for a shot and I followed him up. I guess I could of gone down again...but I was worried if he was of gas he'd of been on top of me awful quick.
Guess the simple answer here is that a well flown 38 is going to own a 205 under the scenario above, where the 38 has alt and E coming in. Even if you get to "even" your relying on the 38 driver to make a mistake...wish I could fly the thing that well....afraid I'm well back in the other 90%.
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Tactics like that are only effective against novice or inexperienced pilots. Get a vet in the P-38 (or any other plane for that matter) and the tactics dramatically change.
Ack-Ack
Please elaborate. I am a P-38 fan, and would love to learn what tactics (not maneuvers) should be used to keep my ride in one piece, and create confetti with his.
-
Originally posted by humble
Your not going to outrun a 38 in a 205, in my opinion "extending" just gives the 38 an added edge by giving away alt. unless others intervene he'll catch you. to me your best option is to initiate an angles fight at your alt. The more E you can bleed out of him while you still have alt to trade for E the greater chance you have of killing him.
Summing things up from the comments above I simply ran into a 10%er...he bounced me (maybe underestimated me) I nuetralized his E and gained significant angles...he went defensive (if he'd tried to extend I'd of hosed him) nuetralized my angles gain (denied me any kind of shot)...rebuilt his E enough to put me on defensive by getting the "over" me and on my 3-9 line...then tried to flush me out in front as he forced me back down...so I disengaged while I could...had enviornment been different he'd of caught me eventually however he choose to zoom up ...nother sign of a 10%er vs getting caught up in a second go around with me on the deck near (for him) a hostile field.
Guess my other option would of been ghosts suggestion of flying the "under" totally...think I did split-s on him at least once...but 3rd pass he went under looking for a shot and I followed him up. I guess I could of gone down again...but I was worried if he was of gas he'd of been on top of me awful quick.
Guess the simple answer here is that a well flown 38 is going to own a 205 under the scenario above, where the 38 has alt and E coming in. Even if you get to "even" your relying on the 38 driver to make a mistake...wish I could fly the thing that well....afraid I'm well back in the other 90%.
I'd also be careful in turn fighting a P-38 in a 205. While you might have a faster turn rate in the 205, if the P-38 pilot is any good, he'll be able to get the reversal through a series of nose low turns or low yo yos and if things progress to the deck, the P-38 driver can force the reversal through a scissor maneuver. When I get home from work, I'll post a film of a recent fight I had with a 205 that jumped me. I was able to work him down to the deck where I eventually got the kill by reversing in the scissors.
Ack-Ack
-
Please elaborate. I am a P-38 fan, and would love to learn what tactics (not maneuvers) should be used to keep my ride in one piece, and create confetti with his.
rshubert
I wanna hear more of both (tactics and maneuvers)..........with films if possible.........:D ;) :D
After all I'm the new and inexperienced P38 driver who's first move is to start a loop........:D
-
Originally posted by Hammerhead
Please elaborate. I am a P-38 fan, and would love to learn what tactics (not maneuvers) should be used to keep my ride in one piece, and create confetti with his.
rshubert
I wanna hear more of both (tactics and maneuvers)..........with films if possible.........:D ;) :D
After all I'm the new and inexperienced P38 driver who's first move is to start a loop........:D
Here's the film I was talking about with the 205. The fight starts out with the 205 having a slight altitude advantage and after the merge the fight progresses to a series of vertical maneuvers in order to get an angle. While it was a good fight and some nice flying from FrankB, the fight lasted longer than it should have and eventually ended up on the deck. If you see in those vertical spirals we were doing, I had a few good opportunities for some snap shots which I took but missed. Gunnery is my biggest weakness in this game and sometimes it makes things harder than they should be.
Anyway, after the fight gets to the deck, the fight pretty much progresses to chasing each other's tail. In this part of the fight you can see how the 205 has a better turn rate than the P-38 but the Lightning's turn radius is slightly tighter, which allowed me to miss most of his shots. As the fight went on, you'll see a few enemy planes show up and this kind of made things a little tougher since now I had to worry about 2 more planes to deal with. In part of the fight, I even went nose up to meet what I thought was a high speed pass from one of the enemy Typhoons but when I realized it was just a tap dance, I resumed turning with the 205. Since I didn't know at first that these 3 enemy fighters were just going to watch and not interfere and the fact that a couple of them made what appeared to be attack runs, I had to be aware of what they were doing and make sure I didn't get fixated on the 205. The fight went into a scissors where I was able to get some hits on his engine and in the next pass he was able to hit my engine when I made my turn a little wider than I should have and you'll hear his engine quit after that pass which then let me finally finish him off.
Here's the film.
P-38 vs 205 (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/P38_vs_205.zip)
It's a long film, the fight itself lasted a little over 10 minutes and goes on for a little more than 12 minutes. Last two minutes is filled with B.S.ing with those enemy planes that circled like vultures above the fight.
Ack-Ack
-
Even a 109 will have trouble co-E in the vertical with a P-38... unless you know what you're doing or are confident the other pilot is a tard (which is usually the case), don't follow him up unless you have more E, as ackack has said. Myself being overly aggressive, I wouldn't take my own advice, I'd play dumb and go up after him... but that's just me :D