Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on June 08, 2003, 04:22:17 PM
-
Watched a show on the history channel today about how Germany used political prisoners, overzealous christians, homosexuals, anti-socialists and russian POWs to construct V2 rocket launch facilities. IIRC no Jewish workers were allowed in.
Anyways the workers were starved, overworked, and eventually worked to death. Avg of 100 deaths a day occurred during construction of V2 rocket sites. Often times the workers would be buried alive in concrete or killed by dynamite explosions since they were not allowed to exit the work site.
Eventually the U.S. Army captured the site and discovered the horrors there.
Aces High often times makes me forget how evil the Germans were. And while the Russians may have fought the largest battles, it was the Americans who rescued/saved the most people. I remember learning about one incident in my history class where the Russians actually stopped outside of a city where the Jewish population was fighting the Germans and waited for the Germans to kill the Jews before engaging in battle.
-
Oops, couple of corrections needed I think. No real argument about the use of slave labour on the V2. But in fact slave labour was used on virtually everthing in the third Reich. That included Jews.
it was the Americans who rescued/saved the most people.
All credit the Americans did save a lot of people but there were other countries involved in the war. The Soviets did liberate one or two camps in the east. The British and Canadians and French and Poles and Australians and South Africans and New Zealanders and Indians and a host of others did take part in the war too. No small part either. Check your history. Recently the British, French and Canadians took part in the the Afghanistan opeartion too. Easy to forget that.
I remember learning about one incident in my history class where the Russians actually stopped outside of a city where the Jewish population was fighting the Germans and waited for the Germans to kill the Jews before engaging in battle.
I think you must be talking about the Warsaw uprising. Your history teacher must have failed history because while it was true the Russians deliberatly stopped outside Warsaw and waited for an uprising to be put down. It was during an uprising of the non Jewish Polish population. The 'Home Army'. The Germans ironically treated many of the surrendering 'soldiers' of the Home Army as POW's.
The Jewish ghetto did rise up earlier in the war but it was suppressed long before the Russians were near Warsaw. All the Jews were dead or in Aushwitz long before the Russians arrived.
Your sentiments are laudable and I don't mean to put you down but history has some surprising traps to fall into.
-
If those huge battles werent taking place in the east and tying up the vast majority of German land and air forces how many people do you think the western allies could save?
-
Someone is forgetting how evil russians were and who dropped the first abombs
-
We dropped the abombs to save millions of american and japanese lives - and they did just that by ending the war and making an invasion of the Japanes main home islands unncessary. Just to give you an idea of what you are asking for when crticizing the abomb useage. More Japanese civilans and soldiers some 175,000 died during the Okinawa invasion than did to both nuclear bombs combined. Over 200,000 Japanese were wounded. Total US KIA were around 15,000, with over 30,000 WIA.
So you are telling me it would have been more humane to see this repeated on a much much larger scale during an invasion of Japans home islands?
-
That just reaches top of the hypocricy, Grunherz :>
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
We dropped the abombs to save millions of american and japanese lives - and they did just that by ending the war and making an invasion of the Japanes main home islands unncessary. Just to give you an idea of what you are asking for when crticizing the abomb useage. More Japanese civilans and soldiers some 175,000 died during the Okinawa invasion than did to both nuclear bombs combined. Over 200,000 Japanese were wounded. Total US KIA were around 15,000, with over 30,000 WIA.
So you are telling me it would have been more humane to see this repeated on a much much larger scale during an invasion of Japans home islands?
I understand this point, but why drop two of them?
One was certainly more than enough.
-
Hey you are guy implicitly asking for a humnaitarion solution that would have killed far more people and far far more of them by proportion in far more greusome ways. But if you think that it would have been better that millions of Japanese civilans were shot in their guts by machine guns, or were burned by flamethrowers, or blown up by HE bombs, run over by tanks, stabbed with bayonets, threw themselves off of cliffs, were asphyxiated by fumes from fires, died of starvation, were executed by crazed Japanese soldiers, that childeren were ordered to charge tanks with bamboo sticks and satchel charges, that heads of households were issued a pair of hand granades one to kill an american soldier and the other to kill their families and so on then yiu have NO right to talk to me about hipocrisy.
On the other hand this attitude is entirely consistent with your ideas about the Iraq war, where you plainly considered it a better alternative for Saddam to stay in power indefinitely enslaving, impovershing, imprisonong, killing and torturing his own people by the tens of thousands each year than not to meantion threating the region than for the USA to intervene now in short decive targeted war with minimal civilan casualties.
Yea I see your morals clearly there.....
-
Originally posted by Animal
I understand this point, but why drop two of them?
One was certainly more than enough.
They werent willing to surrender after one. We had to show that we had plenty and would continue to use them as President Truman implied in the earlier that summer, a warning which Japan flatly rejected and ignored.
The whole WW2 thing sucked and was totaly unneccesary but dropping those bombs was a far better way to end it than to have an invasion of Japan.
-
Now whos said I were *against* the Iraq war? :>
-
good post Blue1
couple notes
Originally posted by davidpt40
Watched a show on the history channel today about how Germany used political prisoners, overzealous christians, homosexuals, anti-socialists and russian POWs to construct V2 rocket launch facilities. IIRC no Jewish workers were allowed in.
u can name thet regular people, catched on the streets, homes beucose somone sell them to gestapo.
Originally posted by davidpt40
Anyways the workers were starved, overworked, and eventually worked to death. Avg of 100 deaths a day occurred during construction of V2 rocket sites. Often times the workers would be buried alive in concrete or killed by dynamite explosions since they were not allowed to exit the work site.
not only working on V2, on submarine bunkers, many underground factories, tunnels, strongholds, ports, mines....
Died by starving, killed/burned/............. by SS
Originally posted by blue1
Oops, couple of corrections needed I think. No real argument about the use of slave labour on the V2. But in fact slave labour was used on virtually everthing in the third Reich. That included Jews.
Polish, french, netherlanders,russians, greeks ........ and any country conquered by germans. Including germans.
Originally posted by blue1
All credit the Americans did save a lot of people but there were other countries involved in the war. The Soviets did liberate one or two camps in the east.
Yeasterday i was in death camp museum, who is locate 2 km from my home. In poland was located most of dead camps i can count 5 big and many smaller. But thats not mean not many peoles was killed there and liberated there.
Originally posted by davidpt40
I remember learning about one incident in my history class where the Russians actually stopped outside of a city where the Jewish population was fighting the Germans and waited for the Germans to kill the Jews before engaging in battle.
:confused:
Originally posted by blue1
I think you must be talking about the Warsaw uprising. Your history teacher must have failed history because while it was true the Russians deliberatly stopped outside Warsaw and waited for an uprising to be put down. It was during an uprising of the non Jewish Polish population. The 'Home Army'. The Germans ironically treated many of the surrendering 'soldiers' of the Home Army as POW's.
The Jewish ghetto did rise up earlier in the war but it was suppressed long before the Russians were near Warsaw. All the Jews were dead or in Aushwitz long before the Russians arrived.
:) one note
Many POWs yes, but much more murdered couple days later, many murdered civilians, and all woman soldiers send to death camps, not POW camps, and killed.
ramzey
-
The Soviets did liberate one or two camps in the east.
out of the frying pan and into the fire.
The British and Canadians and French and Poles and Australians and South Africans and New Zealanders and Indians and a host of others did take part in the war too. No small part either. Check your history. Recently the British, French and Canadians took part in the the Afghanistan opeartion too. Easy to forget that.
I love how you get all defensive and feel the need to "remind" us that other countries took part in the war. davidpt40 wasn't saying only America, Russia and Germany fought, he was only posting about what he saw on the historty channel...... moron.
Thanks for the history lesson. Until just now I didn't realise that other countries fought in WWII.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
Now whos said I were *against* the Iraq war? :>
Your opposition to the basic iraqi prohibited WMD possesion/development argument is pretty clear opposition to the basic lagal cause of the war.. You plainly made the argument that Iraq could laglly have WMD because the USA may have them.
But tell me how many million Japanese had to die in an invasion of the home islands for it to have been considered humanitarian enough altherntive for you? Or did you primarily want an invasion so that several hundred thousand young americans would needlessly die also?
-
I've only critisized the US - Iraq war for its hypocritical reasonings..
Saddam should been ridded already in 1991, thats my opinion... but I don't look with good at some hypocritical bullcrap either.
In fact I hate the hypocritical bull.
-
So you fully supported the recent Iraq war then?
-
IIRC, wasn't Russia sending Jews to Siberian Gulags from 1930s-1950s?
July 23, 1944
Soviet troops arrive at Majdanek concentration camp.
January 17, 1945
Nazis evacuate Auschwitz; prisoners begin "death marches" toward Germany.
January 27, 1945
Soviet troops enter Auschwitz.
April 1945
U.S. troops liberate survivors at Buchenwald and Dachau concentration camps.
May 5, 1945
U.S. troops liberate Mauthausen concentration camp.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but it seems the U.S. and Soviet troops more or less stumbled upon concentration camps rather than directly engaging them.
Does anyone know of any death-camps liberated by the Russians? All I can find is Russians 'liberating' empty camps.
If those huge battles werent taking place in the east and tying up the vast majority of German land and air forces how many people do you think the western allies could save?
Don't forget that U.S. was tying up lots of Germans in Italy and with strategic bombing campaign.
-
Originally posted by davidpt40
IIRC, wasn't Russia sending Jews to Siberian Gulags from 1930s-1950s?
poles, ukrainian , belorussioan, estonian, german, russian,. lithunian............... too
world not circling aroud jews only.
When germans was push back on eastern front most of death camps was destroyed to hide evidence about mass murder.
Most of peoples was killed and burned , and ashes was hide. Same as mass graves.
All prisoners who alive was forced to dead walks, same as later or moved by trains to west.
All death camps who liberate allies /western and estern/ germans not have time to destroy and hide evidences. Cuz armys move to fast and not give them time to do this and beucose som workers was still need.
This people have luck and stay alive.
ramzey
-
david,
difference between camps in poland and those in germany which US has liberated, was the fact that from those there wasn't really anywhere to withdraw to. From poland you can take slave workers to Germany and work them to death there. From germany where are you going to take them ? Poland ? Russians already there :)
My grandparents were slave laborers in Wolfsburg, VW factory :) They met there and my father was born there after the war. They didn't repatriate till 1946. Things weren't quite very fast then :)
For some darn reason, they won't give me a discount on VWs now :(
But back to your original point: yes, some germans were quite evil, not all of them, some. They managed to industralize what other nations done quietly and inefficiently - killing off innocents. German efficiency i guess. Every nation has a scelleton in its closet. After the war there were quite many murderes of germans in poland in reprizals. Supposidly some of the concentration camps were "reopened" with germans as "guests". Then there are issues of anti-semitism, poland, russia, germany, whole europe. Yes, it existed, and to some extend, still exists. However, your teacher's premise that Russians' were as anti-semitic as germans is incorrect. Purges of jews didn't start till much later after the war, and lots of them were allowed to emigrate to Israel and US, something that average Russian would give a left nut for :)
Gulags were for dissidents of all sorts. Anti-communists, intelectuals, anyone who needed to be "put away"
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you fully supported the recent Iraq war then?
I support liberation of the Iraqi civilians and kicking saddam to hell, but I do really critisize the way it was 'advertised'.
The hypocricy involved in the 'advertising' of the war campaign has been sickening.
I cannot fully support the hypocritical goverments however.
Once goverment is proven to be highly hypocritical in achieving the goals, you never know what will be their next task or what they do aside the public knowledge.
There will always be hypocricy in the politics, but what matters is how widely it'll be used in politics and what is to be achieved with it.
-
QUOTE]Originally posted by NUKE
I love how you get all defensive and feel the need to "remind" us that other countries took part in the war. davidpt40 wasn't saying only America, Russia and Germany fought, he was only posting about what he saw on the historty channel...... moron.
Thanks for the history lesson. Until just now I didn't realise that other countries fought in WWII. [/QUOTE]
Moron?????
What gives you the right to be abusive Nuke?????
I wasn't reminding you because you clearly know eveything already. I simply corrected a couple of points he made and the statement that Americans liberated/saved most people. Everyone credits America with it's contribution to the effort. America lost 202,000 dead and 640.000 wounded in WW2. Terrible figures but among the lowest suffered by any nation involved in the war.
In recent years it is irritating the way some Americans believe that they won the war on their own with a little help from a few allies. This is particularly annoying to the Brits who played no small part in the liberation.
I mentioned Afghanistan too because it's all been conveniently forgotten already that not just America took part, even the French helped out.
Not a criticism of Americans or DavidPt40 simply an attempt at clarity.
If that makes me a moron then so be it.
-
Originally posted by blue1
QUOTE]Originally posted by NUKE
I love how you get all defensive and feel the need to "remind" us that other countries took part in the war. davidpt40 wasn't saying only America, Russia and Germany fought, he was only posting about what he saw on the historty channel...... moron.
Thanks for the history lesson. Until just now I didn't realise that other countries fought in WWII.
Moron?????
What gives you the right to be abusive Nuke?????
I wasn't reminding you because you clearly know eveything already. I simply corrected a couple of points he made and the statement that Americans liberated/saved most people. Everyone credits America with it's contribution to the effort. America lost 202,000 dead and 640.000 wounded in WW2. Terrible figures but among the lowest suffered by any nation involved in the war.
In recent years it is irritating the way some Americans believe that they won the war on their own with a little help from a few allies. This is particularly annoying to the Brits who played no small part in the liberation.
I mentioned Afghanistan too because it's all been conveniently forgotten already that not just America took part, even the French helped out.
Not a criticism of Americans or DavidPt40 simply an attempt at clarity.
If that makes me a moron then so be it. [/B][/QUOTE]
So you took the orignial post and inferred it was about Americans thinking we won the war alone. The Post wasn't about Arghanistan either, but thanks for reminding us of that too.
Maybe you need to be a little less sensitive.
-
Originally posted by Animal
I understand this point, but why drop two of them?
One was certainly more than enough.
Because Japan wanted to maintain the sovereignity of the emperor and USA didn't. So we dropped a second bomb.
-
I'm not sensitive Nuke. My country didn't fight in the war (officially) even if the Luftwaffe did accidentally bomb my great Uncles house!
I simply corrected a couple of errors which you interpreted as slights against Americans. The reminders I think were needed. We all know where you stand and your knowledge of these events but not everyone is as well informed or as sensitive to perceived criticism as you are.