Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on June 09, 2003, 09:59:26 PM
-
A common complaint in this game recently is that too many people run from a fight instead of making a go of it. Fair enough, although the old (WB) culture that I have been used to placed the emphasis on surviving (in which case points awarded for kills were tripled) whereas here in AH the name of the game is to fight to the last bullet and auger (to avoid wasting time on RTB, and thereby boosting k/t :rolleyes: ). I decided I would be a bit more aggressive today, and to engage in fights even where it seemed inadvisable, knowing that I would die a lot more, but in the hope of making the game more interesting for both myself and my opponents. In all the following, I was in a 109G10.
P51 Cherrypicker. I had taken off with 100% fuel – as one does in a 109. Then I saw a dot up high, and it’s showing on dar as a con. Must have been 10K above me. All righty then, I’ll climb up and see what happens, but clearly I'm a sitting duck if I venture too far from the field. By the time I had got to within 5K of his alt, the P51 has circled behind me. My speed was low as I turned to face him, and here he comes, hammering towards me. I avoided what might have been an HO attempt, but he got behind me, and pinged off my rudder as I dived for safety – which happened to be above the field, but hey – I’d not long since taken off... He pulls off, and I grab alt and chandelle over to be looking down on him. Then follows a bit of scissoring, and I end up on his 6. Just as he’s running for his life at 1.8, he accuses me of being an ack runner! If that was in reference to my evasive dive, so be it. And with no rudder, I was somewhat compromised. Ends up with him running away “to answer a call to another part of the map”. Right. Well, he was a gentleman about it, and I couldn’t fight much without my rudder, so that was the end of that engagement.
Spit and LA5 nose wipes. I had taken off to check out a con which had augered or been killed by the time I could get to him. So I went to the next nearest enemy field. I shot a MOSS, but then two of the deceased’s friends decided there was a score to settle. I found myself co-alt or very slightly higher than a Spit and an LA5. The see-saw began, but every time I got an opportunity to kill one of them, by the time I was close enough to get a shot with the spud cannon, they would turn. I did eventually kill the LA5 as he tried to set up an HO, but hadn’t quite completed his manoeuvre by the time I loosed of a couple of spuds. But because of the distance I’d already flown, I was out of fuel and had to auger. I both Spit & LA5 and apologised for not being able to continue – a bit like the handshake if resigning from a chess game, or any game. The spit pilot's response was to shoot my chute. Hardly a handshake – felt more as if he’d wiped his nose on my tie. Thank you very freaking much.
Alt Monkey, who conveniently overlooks his Aces and Kings. I was in a 1v1 with a Spit. This fight had begun from something else – we had just stumbled into eachother. Neither had much of an advantage, and as my G10 mentor Urchin would agree, the G10 v Spit 9 fights often end in stalemate just as this one did. Because of the length of time it had gone on, two other guys thought they would join in, making it a 3 v 1. One guy was a 205 which I’d seen before – no problem. The other was a P51 with about a 10 K alt advantage at least. He came screaming down from on high, and I disengaged with the Spit and turned for base. I was nudging 500mph TAS, with the P51 still closing. He closed from 5.0 to less than 1.0 – and later asked me why I hadn’t turned to fight – LOL!!!!! Oh sure, and present him with the perfect opportunity for a deflection shot with his .50 cal lasers. No thanks. If not that, then the Spit or 205 would have got me for sure. The P51 pilot was so consumed with killing me that he forgot about the ack - and my friends - never saw him again.
The Steamroller. A noob Spit had just come in and tried for an HO. I thought I could avoid it but get just close enough to squeeze off a spud or two. I left it too late. I killed the Spit, but my wing was pinged off. So I reupped to find a bunch more noobs inbound. Hehe, they were crap – came in high but blew all their alt in one pass. I was engaging an F4U which was near the deck. I thought he was going to follow my zoom climb, but wisely he didn’t – ran out to sea instead. So as I tried to reacquire my target, I was killed by the Spit I’d shot down a few minutes earlier. By that time, the steamroller had a full head of steam, and the usual four or five plane types showed up. Just in case you can’t remember the list, they are: P51, Spit, YAK, LA7. Not having received a 6-call from my “friends”, I decided to bugger off elsewhere...
Real Life Scenario. Francis Gabreski was flying a P47 over Germany one day, when he noticed a 109 on his tail. I don’t suppose anyone here would suggest Gabreski was a coward, so can you guess what happened next? Did he turn back to face the 109 – perhaps get into a turnfight? Hell no. He decided that it was safe to “run the guy out of ammo”. The gap between them must have been considerable. Anyhow, Gabreski took a hit on his rudder and the impact was so severe that the rudder pedal was deflected with such force that it snapped off against his foot. He dare not look at his foot in case there was blood. He thought the sight of blood might make him pass out. Then he descended into cloud and made some turns, and lost the 109 that way.
After hearing the various whines about “cowardice” – both in the text buffer and on this BBS, I am now able to form my own opinion. Yes this is a game, and yes maybe some guys run from a fight just as Gabreski did. And just as I did when I knew I had no other chance to survive. But it seems to me that at least SOME of the fight-don’t-run whiners conveniently overlook the odds when those odds are overwhelmingly in their favour. They don’t just want a fight. They want you to hand them your own head on a plate.
-
in your steam roller story, what enemy base where you at and which country?
-
this is a funny story
-
You bailed?
Whatever for?
........and how do you do that, anyway?
-
Originally posted by Beet1e
I would be a bit more aggressive today, and to engage in fights even where it seemed inadvisable
Different worlds.
The fight, when engaged as you stated, is the best from a "fighters" point of reference.
It can end with your demise ( in my case more than not ), but a good fight is worth the price of admission.
And if you come up victorious, there's the speeches and advertising endorsments.
But in the end..
If it was a GOOD fight.
It takes a place in your mind.
Win or lose.
In no way is it "same'o same'o".
The "light" burns.
-
Beet1e:
But because of the distance I’d already flown, I was out of fuel and had to auger... The spit pilot's response was to shoot my chute
This is the kind of dweeby "fly till out of something then auger" approach you rolled your eyes at at the start of your post...
and also:
If you augered how could he shoot your chute?
-
I usually wish they were more aggressive when I'm chasing them, and less aggressive when they're chasing me.
-
Well I'm sure alot like me. If I hear guy complaining on channel 1. Either ack hugger, runner . hey you going to turn, stick stirrier, lagayboy, and oh running to friends. All this does is tell me guy complaining pissed because other pilot was smart. And all this guy wants is advantage.................... ..
Calls guy ack huuger = I have alt come on out
Runner= I'm in better turn fighter
Run to friends= oh i know i wouldv'e had u YA right
complain about others plane types = DWEEB
-
Well...
I will start with my appologies to the community for a long burst on ch1 after what, after some cooling, I can only blame to frustration about a clever use of own ack and friendlies by my adversary.
I would like to offer my appologies to Remie, should he read this boards, too. It was a little bit too much on my side.
He fought a clever 2 (Yak and G-10) vs 1 (G-10) (he was outnumbered although he had alt advantage and could pretty much control de fight). He engaged a buddy (Yak) and when I (G-10) joined the fight from below he blew his advantage and then ran. That's just correct in my book, and my words about "cowardice" were out of place. While he was very far from being an aggresive pilot, his usage of ack and friendly cap was correct in my book and what anyone would expect from a pilot who lost advantage and rather like living than fighting against odds.
I won't whine about this or that way of fighting, as I fully admit that each one can use his $14.95 the way he wants. I perceive my frustration comes mainly from the feeling that interesting fights are becoming less and less common.
I guess burnout season approaching.
-
Pepe.
-
No one can ever say i ran, ack hugged or what ever:D
I do stupudly run into fights that i will enevitably lose, or i dive into ack or etc. i also auger when need to grab goon or hurry for hq defense etc.
my point is that sometimes i win sometimes i lose, but as i see if you enemies are engaging me, then they arent on a squadie or who ever and just possibly the mission will succeed. if your on me then the other guy might just make it.
what does get my gull is when one clearly has advantage then runs to buddies, i figure if your up in a fighter you come to my base- then be prepared to fight!!! if not go play another game:)
i very seldom see anyone willing to engage 1v1 at coalt or etc.
also suprised the cherry pickin-run king hasnt givin his 2 cents yet.
we all know who that is:)
-
You guys just need to start using my new MudFlapGirl-gunsightv2 to keep a perspective on things when the fighting gets intense. Shoot me an email at nascargofaster@yahoo.com and I'll even throw in a couple of drum loops you can use as replacement sounds. I use one of them as my new "treads" sound on GVs.
-
story of how I got good at AH:
went looking for cons with more alt/E than me :D...
If all you do is run you'll never escape when you really want to... like when you have no E, 10 kills and lots of respawned cons looking for revenge....
I BnZ.... but rarely run even from 2 on 1 situations
-
Originally posted by Manedew
story of how I got good
went looking for cons with more alt/E than me :D
that's exactly what i did... and still do. i see a bad guy in the distance, or 2, i'll head their way even if they're higher than me.
-
Originally posted by Manedew
story of how I got good at AH:
went looking for cons with more alt/E than me :D...
If all you do is run you'll never escape when you really want to... like when you have no E, 10 kills and lots of respawned cons looking for revenge....
I BnZ.... but rarely run even from 2 on 1 situations
Exactly Manedew.
A BK trade mark is fly below everyone giving our 6 to anyone looking, wait for 'em to come down for the "helpless, low con", then reverse and blast 'em. Its surprising nowadays that not many will take your 6. They go right back up or high tail it outta dodge.
-
well said Pepe
-
The thing is I have only been playing this game for a 6 or 7 months and for the first month and a half I pretty much got shot down on my every attempt at combat.
One of the first things I learned after reading some of the posts here and info on a few websites was basic ACM -- know your plane and know the plane you're fighting.
The thing is I always try to use any advantage I have. If there are friendly acks - I will use them, if I can get alt - I will use, I will not get into a turning battle with a spit unless I am in a similar plane etc.
I am not afraid of dieing because frankly my scores are not good enough to worry about. The thing is I don't see why it is necessary to purposely put myself at a disadvantage just so the other guy -- the one who shoots me --- is happy. I still engage in many fights and loose lots but I am starting to win a few more.
As they say - All is fair in WAR :-)
Oh well -- I will fight my way and the other guy is entitled to his....
-
If I can fight them, i fight them.
If there are too much, and I`m fast enough, I run.
If you`re in a fair fight, you have made a mistake. It`s still fun, but LA7 N1K SPIT LA7 on my tail, and I run.
-
fight or die.
if the reds are not dead, you've made a mistake and should die for it.
yadda yadda about a game, about real life this or real life that, you take up a challenge, you win or lose, you kill or die.
not live or run.
-
Originally posted by acetnt
The thing is I don't see why it is necessary to purposely put myself at a disadvantage just so the other guy -- the one who shoots me --- is happy.
well, imho, i think you'll learn much faster and before you know it, using those evasives (not simple running or split-essing) to reverse on the guy who is on you. and you'll learn that and alt/e disadvantage is no big deal that requires you doing your best to hightail it out of dodge crying for help or running to acks - or getting shot down. it'll help you get better at both judging e-sates and improving your SA while you keep an eye on the guy on you, and anything else that may be inbound.
on the converse, you'll learn how to use alt/e to your advantage knowing what to look for in the other guy, whether you can aggressively latch on or take a little more care vs someone who seems to know what they're doing.
it's real hard for someone for force an overshoot on me, on the other hand, i force overshoots all the time.
nothing beats busting the 1 or 2 guys who have every advantage over you and sending them back to tower with a "you friggin' cheater - no way you can do that!" coming over channel 1.
:D
-
Originally posted by nopoop
Different worlds.
The fight, when engaged as you stated, is the best from a "fighters" point of reference.
It can end with your demise ( in my case more than not ), but a good fight is worth the price of admission.
And if you come up victorious, there's the speeches and advertising endorsments.
But in the end..
If it was a GOOD fight.
It takes a place in your mind.
Win or lose.
In no way is it "same'o same'o".
The "light" burns.
Really, really different. Nopoop, this ain't a Zen experience, nor is it a martial arts contest. It's a GAME, and has absolutely no attachment to any objective reality. Don't take it so seriously, man. And, if you're measuring yourself against your performance in this game in any serious way, you need to get a life.
-
Gotta go with Shane on this one. Beating someone you should (because of your superior alt, or whatever) is nowhere near as good as beating someone you shouldn't (because you were at a disadvantage to start). The only way to learn to beat people on equal, or worse, terms is to put yourself in those situations. Sure, you'll die a bunch of times doing it, but you'll also learn a lot of tricks and get your timing on evasives which will save your butt. Guys who cherry pick from high alt never learn those skills and once their alt advantage is gone they tend to have no option but to run.
Not saying you have to stay around in every situation like that where you are at a disadvantage, but I think it's a better measure of skill than simply climbing to an alt higher than anyone else and then fighting from there. I know I never fly over 10K unless I'm chasing someone who is higher than that.
-Soda
The Assassins.
-
Originally posted by Shane
nothing beats busting the 1 or 2 guys who have every advantage over you and sending them back to tower with a "you friggin' cheater - no way you can do that!" coming over channel 1.
:D
If I could do that I wouldn't run
I agree that this may the way to learn how to truly dogfight but don't forget how frustrating it is when you're not that experienced like me, up a fighter, fly 10mins to a fight only to go down 5 sec later and then repeat this for the entire night.........:D
All I am saying is that I make up for my inexperience by coming to a fight with an advantage --- or that I will use any advantage I have in a fight -- I don't fly just to run -- hate running but I always like to set myself up in a good position for a fight......
-
Manx was very instructive to me one night of how E and alt are a false sense of superiority. And an additional strategy lesson not to follow his smoking PJ low over his ack while fixated on the kill. He judged me and I was found wanting due to my ego thinking I had an easy kill.
By the way, our first engagement he was in a Mossi low and I was in a spit9 hi with E. Blew my kester to peices. I thought it would be a cake walk.
Next night I stayed low around my feild and had more fun with a 262 than a cat with catnip. I was out of ammo but kept low trying to get him to auger. I even chased him while he was attacking other fiters to mess up his aim. Finally killed his c47 near the ground that he was escorting by clipping off the tip of my wing to kill one of its engins making it auger into a canyon wall (no ammo for last 10 minutes dueling with the 262). All of this while staying at an alt disadvantage and giving him my 6 at all opportunities to attack me. I augered..came up again after the 262 and it ran home. So I started attacking everything not "Green" over my feild. Lotsa fun.
I find if I troll and let people get close, I can get some good fites. Just need to play possum till they closer than 4800 and commited.
-
Originally posted by rshubert
Really, really different. Nopoop, this ain't a Zen experience, nor is it a martial arts contest
Ahh grasshopper but you are SO mistaken. Fighting well is a martial arts exersize. Think of it like judo. Using your plane and it's strengths to defeat a different plane with different strengths. Move and counter move. Taking an enemy that has the altitude and has the "plane" and breaking him down to equal territory where you can kill him is a martial arts in it's strictist sense.
I don't fly one hundred hours a month rshubert. If I bust 20 hours I'm flying ALOT. I would suggest that I'm not the one that needs to get a life.
I work on stuff. I'm working on reversals now, I find them difficult, but slowly I'm improving. To work on reversals you have to hang your bellybutton out there, you get killed. And with that comes some great fights where I practice my craft. Have four reversals this tour so far, eventually died but I have "four" reversals. I'm improving.
I learned quite awhile back that I couldn't learn to swim in the wading pool. I had to jump in the deep end. Swallowing all that water sucks, but damn if I don't learn along the way.
Killing a con that holds all the cards is a wonderful thing, makes my day. But it ain't zen.
Zen is eating a great cheeseburger.
Rare.
-
Originally posted by nopoop
I work on stuff. I'm working on reversals now, I find them difficult, but slowly I'm improving. To work on reversals you have to hang your bellybutton out there, you get killed. And with that comes some great fights where I practice my craft. Have four reversals this tour so far, eventually died but I have "four" reversals. I'm improving.
if you see me up - i might be found in CT til pizza goes away, ask me to take you to the DA and show you some reversals.
on a side note: you guys, lazs in particular, are missing some real great close fur in CT this week, even tho the planeset is kinda "uberish" it's pretty balanced. there's even a zeke.... err spit9 for lazs...
spit14/p51 a very good matchup... then you have the f4u-4 and temp available to one side, with the spit9 being with the spit14 and the pony being with the former 2 planes. bases pretty close, instense low level action... not too many 262's for the most part.
-
Reversals are coming, tracking the con from the rear to the front during the reversal and then being in a position to kill him when he "first" pops out front is the challenge.
Tell you what, I never get bored with it.
-
wait till your hat switch flakes out.