Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on June 11, 2003, 06:48:39 AM
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I still believe that too much is being read into the hallowed k/t. It is governed by many factors, and is only a relevant comparison between guys who strive to achieve the highest k/t, and nothing else. I’m not interested in k/t, so mine is irrelevant - I have no interest in becoming enslaved to the scoreboard. It is also totally removed from the realities of WW2 (the event upon which this sim is modelled – seems some people need reminding) and one could argue that it’s the pursuit of a high k/t that has created the furball suicide dweebery and aerial Quake that is killing the MA, if Sabre’s songs are to be believed. Think of it – you go to a furball with alt in a one-ping wonderplane like the C-Hog, dive in, get as many kills as possible while you still have E, get shot, bail (you never intended to RTB anyway), and your new plane is only a mouseclick away. Just imagine if AH were to measure pilot performance in a different way – length of streak (and I’m not talking about dirty underpants). WB included that stat, and it was a measure of how many kills you had before getting killed yourself. I managed 28 once, but some guys had 50, 100, or more. That sure did away with a whole lot of suicide dweebery.
I get by as a fighter pilot. I’m not the best, not by any means. I’m good enough to get by against most of what the arena throws at me – my bad luck if I run into Urchin or Shane – lol. My fighter rank (assuming one ascribes any relevance to it) has been something around 150-300 for the last few tours. But even this needs to be qualified! There was a time when I scored attack sorties and fighter sorties separately. That’s because attack sorties carry great risk – a lumbering fully loaded P47 is a sitting duck – and the separation of the scores allows a separate analysis of one’s fighter scores and attack scores. But even this is flawed! And that’s because there are many times when what began as a jabo sortie becomes a fighter sortie later on. And very often there are a lot of kills to be had in one such sortie. So I have gone back to just scoring everything as a fighter sortie. It makes k/t look a lot better, but k/d might suffer if flying a lot of jabo sorties, and the cherrypickers are already airborne.
There’s something else. I’m not one for playing a subset of a game – any game – the way some guys here do. Some of you guys might be brilliant fighter jocks. I often see text buffer utterances like ”I would’ve killed you had your friend not shown up”, or ”let’s go to the DA and then we’ll see who’s best”. The thing about these situations is that the victor was in the right place at the right time – and THAT, I believe, is part of being a smart fighter pilot. Remember that in 80% of real WW2 kills, the attacker was not seen by his quarry. But some of you guys want ONLY to fight, and have no interest in the strategic aspects of the game. When you go looking for your fights, how do you do it? You look at the map, of course. But supposing some buffs/fluffs have flattened your radar factory? The map is not much use then. One evening, there were some determined buffs hammering Bish HQ. We had only just resupplied it from the last attack. I considered that it might be in the best interests of the Bish to get up in a Jug-25 and defend the HQ. Even though we were on one of the children’s maps, it was a long flight to get to the Bouncy Castle, and when I got to that area I was able to attack and destroy three buff formations. Because of being in a remote area, they weren’t expecting an attack and had no gunners. Two of the formations were LANCs – hehe, no ball turret on a LANC.
With my ammo (and fuel) largely depleted, I RTBed and landed 8 kills. One of the buffs must have ditched or escaped. It had been a long flight – that climb to 20K takes forever, so k/t went down the tubes, but at least it meant we had a working map, so that YOU guys could find your furballing fun. Symbiosis. Hey, somebody had to do it. I enjoyed that sortie, and a lot of Bish were happier as a result, though they never knew that it was old Uncle Beet1e that kept the lights from being turned off.
Of course, I could have gone for a insta-kill-5K-kwik-fix, but the interests of the Bish would have suffered great harm had we lost that radar factory. Then, the only option at my disposal would have been to whine to HTC, and maybe ask them if we are to be at the mercy of fluffs in AH2. Or whine to get the game changed – by increasing radar factory “hardness”, or by perking bombs weighing more than 100lb. Or whined that the effect of the buffs was disproportionate to the level of effort required. But these are all whines to procure a particular set of game parameters in order to boost a player’s chosen stat, and to show himself in the strongest possible light, without that player having to lift a finger to do it himself.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I have no interest in becoming enslaved to the scoreboard.
From the looks of this post, it's too late to save you.
:D
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there is a score in this game :eek: :eek:
just for animal : :rolleyes:
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Allright, be honest now... did anyone read that whole post? If they did can they make some cliffs notes? (oh you can leave out the parts about 8 kill sorties and how skillfu he is)
lazs
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I read the first line, scanned the rest. Saw something about statistics or something. I think he just needs to use my MudFlapGirl-gunsightv2 to relax a bit and he'll be fine.
<----- See example to the left.
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"it’s the pursuit of a high k/t that has created the furball suicide dweebery and aerial Quake that is killing the MA"
I have seen many assumptions as to what is causing the problem(s) as you have described, but k/t was never the subject of cause. k/t was definately the subject of a beet1e / lazs debate about runners (yawn).
Where is this elusive k/t stat, I only see a Kills / Hour stat.
I don't care what you or anybody says about Kills / Hour, that is the most abiguious stat of them all.
The only stats that I care about (fighter/attack) and let me know where I stand are the K/D and Hit percentage, and still, the goal of improving ones stats, IMHO could hardly be indicators of current MA behaviour.
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hit percentage and score are the least useful stats... score indicates time up and hit percentage indicates type of guns or planes flown more than anything. All stats are useful for tracking personal goals or trends but K/H is the most useful for determining how much air combat is going on in the arena... the more gangbanging and steamrolleriing the less K/H average.
lazs
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Originally posted by lassie
Allright, be honest now... did anyone read that whole post? If they did can they make some cliffs notes? (oh you can leave out the parts about 8 kill sorties and how skillfu he is)
lazs
You're still a jerk. I'm going to point out HOW you were a jerk, so you can modify your behavior, if that is your wish.
1. Subtle dig that post was too long to keep your attention.
This shows only that the author of the barb (that's you, lassie, pay attention now...) has a short attention span, and cannot--or will not--read anything more complicated than the Sunday comics. This kind of person never even listens to the other guy's point of view before jumping up and screaming about how stupid or silly the other person is. Not the argument, but the person. In other words, a jerk.
2. Snide implication that post author is beating his own chest.
This shows that the author of the nasty little implication is unsure of his own manhood, and must pull others down to make himself feel better. Combined with lassie's tendency to point out that others aren't as good as he is, this implies real issues that should be dealt with by a professional. In other words, a pathetic jerk.
Did I mention that you're still a jerk, lassie?? I don't want to forget to remind you.:D
Perhaps you should join JA (jerks anonymous) and get into one of those 12-step programs. I can see it now, "Hello, my name is Lassie, and I'm a jerk."
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no hubert.... what it proves is that you are new. It proves that you haven't been around long enough to have read some of his earlier wall-0-text thinly disguised "i am really good at this why doesn't anyone notice but me" posts.
hint... note the lack of people jumping on your bandwagon.. Those that have been around long enough would appreciat some sort of cliffs notes on his posts.
but ya know... you are right... I do feel better now.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Allright, be honest now... did anyone read that whole post? If they did can they make some cliffs notes? (oh you can leave out the parts about 8 kill sorties and how skillfu he is)
lazs
Lol, to be honest, I looked at the thread title, and opened it...
It looked like another Beetle post resembling… what was that game with the pong paddle on the bottom, and a ball? Blockout? A quick Logitech wheel scrolled down, not reading one word, and just read the responses, right to yours. Sorry, but too funny.
Ok, Ill go read it.
Be cool if you could just pong it away though. Is there a Java script for this?!
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thank you creamo... i do appreciate your sacrafice. I know I don't allways show it but I really like you... in a manly hubert tough guy kinda way.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
thank you creamo... i do appreciate your sacrafice. I know I don't allways show it but I really like you... in a manly hubert tough guy kinda way.
lazs
Is that as opposed to your "girly feminine sissy boy kinda way"? I'm glad you're finally getting in touch with your masculine side, lassie.
But you're still a jerk. Why not try to work on that, too?:p
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Having been playing for only 5 months (no prior online game experience) I am still amazed at the versatility of play AH offers.
You've got missions, scenarios and snapshots for strat guys, ct for quasi history buffs, da if you want to knife fight with a buddy. The MA is a great place to explore as a lone wolf or to fly with a flock of fellow countrymen. TA is great to pump your ego by answering basic questions for some of the new folks.
I always check my score the day following an evening in the MA or CT. That's the only measure I have of improvement (or digression).
It looks to me like there is something here for everybody, and a few complain because everybody's not playing their way.
The only problem I've seen is that my sleep schedule has gone to crap since I've been playing.
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Originally posted by lazs2
hit percentage and score are the least useful stats... score indicates time up and hit percentage indicates type of guns or planes flown more than anything. All stats are useful for tracking personal goals or trends but K/H is the most useful for determining how much air combat is going on in the arena... the more gangbanging and steamrolleriing the less K/H average.
lazs
I know that you are steadfast in your beliefs laz, but as far as I am concerned, there are too many variables and circumstances that could sway this number that have nothing to do with AtoA combat.
A good mission night when the Knight Alliance flys, could sway this number significantly due to the steamrollering/vulchfest that can take place. On such missions, 10+ kill sorties by multiple planes, within a short period of time can take place, and this is not a picture of AtoA combat. These multiple kill sorties in short periods of time can sway that number significantly.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Blah blah blah... anybody not for strat is a quaker...
Blah blah blah... I have lots of fun sight seeing...
I think that about sums it up :D.
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Originally posted by sonostudmuffinun
Having been playing for only 5 months (no prior online game experience) I am still amazed at the versatility of play AH offers.
You've got missions, scenarios and snapshots for strat guys, ct for quasi history buffs, da if you want to knife fight with a buddy. The MA is a great place to explore as a lone wolf or to fly with a flock of fellow countrymen. TA is great to pump your ego by answering basic questions for some of the new folks.
I always check my score the day following an evening in the MA or CT. That's the only measure I have of improvement (or digression).
It looks to me like there is something here for everybody, and a few complain because everybody's not playing their way.
The only problem I've seen is that my sleep schedule has gone to crap since I've been playing.
Son, you are right. There is something for everyone. There are many different types of mission you can fly - air to air combat is just one of them. There are also field capture missions, bombing missions to hit strategic targets (to make it difficult for the opposition), vehicle ops, aircraft carriers...
k/t, by the way = kills/time - same thing as kills/hour. The point of this thread (though I see it's gone over the heads of quite a few people) is that there are ways to help your own side other than air to air combat. Such an effort can make a big difference to the side, in this case having a working map versus NOT having a working map - something the furballers need in order to find their fites. Those missions, in this case a one man "missun", can be rewarding, but they won't get you a big k/t. My satisfaction, apart from killing the buffs, was to keep the Bish lights on - a working map.
The furballers don't like it when people don't play their way, despite their best efforts to deflect attention from this fact by accusing other types of player of the same thing. They don't like people who fly jabos to their fields and pork the fuel. They don't like a squad of 110s coming in and levelling the fighter hangars. They don't like buff pilots who kill their fields or their radar. But you know what? They're too damn lazy to do anything about it themselves, or they are so consumed with maximising the damned k/t that they don't have the time. Instead, their only response is to whine to HTC to have the game changed: "Harden this, harden that. Perk all bombs. Move the fields around. Hell, move the goalposts around while you're at it." And they won't be satisfied until all forms of gameplay other than air to air combat have been rendered ineffective.
I'm just showing that there is a way to deal with porkage, or potential porkage, other than the furballer preferred method of whining to HTC.
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slap... I agree with you... certain circumstances change the way stats indicate but... I believe that they are not the norm and that over an entire tour or several tours those blips don't count for much... things average out.
I would say that if an "average stats" page was put up we would see the k/h go up in the small maps and go down in the big maps. I believe that people with high k/h generally have decent k/d but people with high k/d do not necessarally have a high k/h.. Do you see what I am getting at?
my belife is that if the fields were about 10% closer we would have more playerws on and the k/h would go up... conversly... I belive that more large maps with fields far apart will trend the players on down as well as the k/h stat going down.
I believe that game features also can affect k/h.. porked fuel and far apart fields are a double whammy for k/h I believe.
lazs
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Kills per hour is a measure of one thing...
THUMB CANDY
If you want thumb candy, play "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" or "Falcon 4.0" instant action. IF you want a furball go to the Duelling arena with all your friends, if you have any. Moving the bases closer together won't do anything but force the players down on the deck with no time to climb.
That's not realistic, it sure as hell isn't good tactics, and all it does is decrease your travel time to the furball by 3 or four minutes.
And, by the way, you're still a jerk, lassie.
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rshubert...we get it man, you don't like lazs. Few people do, but we put up with him.(:p @lazs)
He's right in saying that the fields on the Pizza are too far apart though...I hate flying for 20 minutes just to find a fight.
As far as k/t goes...mine is perhaps the worst in this game. This results from logging in, upping, but falling asleep waiting to get to target. It happened last night to me...my wife must have turned off my computer.
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Why is it everytime I click on a Beobtuse thread, i find myself in front of a text this size? Are you not "snapposting" like everyone here ? (Aka post a quick like while the office jerk is not looking over your shoulder.)
Geez beetle, waaay to much time on your hands :D
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Originally posted by rshubert
That's not realistic, it sure as hell isn't good tactics, and all it does is decrease your travel time to the furball by 3 or four minutes.
ALL it does is decrease travel time by three or four minutes? Over the course of an evening, that could add up to over 30 to 40 minutes saved in travel time alone, time where you otherwise do nothing except chatting on Channel 1 or alt-tabbing out to do stuff outside of Aces High.
That also means decreased travel time for strat-minded players as well, allowing them to impact the "war" more quickly and consistently.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
ALL it does is decrease travel time by three or four minutes? Over the course of an evening, that could add up to over 30 to 40 minutes saved in travel time alone...
Sherbert doesn't care, he wants you tro be miserable with him.
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"The thing about these situations is that the victor was in the right place at the right time – and THAT, I believe, is part of being a smart fighter pilot."
pretty boring, sorry. if the guy won't come down and mix it up he can have my six for all i care. certainly speeds up things rather than wait for the high plane to make his mind.
Takes maybe two brain cells to decode threats away from dangerous range, a lot more in the middle of a furball.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
ALL it does is decrease travel time by three or four minutes? Over the course of an evening, that could add up to over 30 to 40 minutes saved in travel time alone, time where you otherwise do nothing except chatting on Channel 1 or alt-tabbing out to do stuff outside of Aces High.
That also means decreased travel time for strat-minded players as well, allowing them to impact the "war" more quickly and consistently.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Generally, as a strat player, I launch raids from rear fields. The reason, obviously, is to have enough time to get the bomber to altitiude before we run the risk of being intercepted.
Closer fields do not help the Strat crowd at all. If anything, I would argue that it would hinder our efforts.
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it's relative, if they were closer, the furball would also be lower and you'd have less but relatively as much to climb from those rear fields to pass the furball ceiling.
Maybe a bit less safe for you but not by much.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Closer fields do not help the Strat crowd at all. If anything, I would argue that it would hinder our efforts.
I don't see your logic here. If all fields move closer together, then rear fields require less travel time to get to your target. In addition, the closer base proximities mean that fights generally occur at lower altitudes. The relative difference between your chosen altitude and those fighting between the frontline bases should remain the same even if the actual altitude decreases.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I don't see your logic here. If all fields move closer together, then rear fields require less travel time to get to your target. In addition, the closer base proximities mean that fights generally occur at lower altitudes. The relative difference between your chosen altitude and those fighting between the frontline bases should remain the same even if the actual altitude decreases.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I think you missed my point. A Stratgic raid, in my mind, is an attack on a Strat target (HQ, Fuel Depot, etc). Bases being closer together will not help us. A bombers best friend is altitude, so if we launch from a base and the bases are closer together, we'll have to fly in circles until we get enough alt to be safe from interceptors.
Flying over an enemy base in a buff at 5k is suicide.
Plus, in order avoid ack from the strat target itself, we need to be 10k up.
So you see, if we launch and fly direct, we'll be passing over the enemy base sooner, and therfore, at a much lower altitude which is a disadvantage for a bomber.
I hope this clarifies my post.
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"IF you want a furball go to the Duelling arena with all your friends ..."
I am so tired of hearing this cop-out when discussing the context of these threads. The main idea and purpose of these thread should be to put forth ideas to build/setup an MA arena that can be good for all. Not build another sandbox or go play in that sandbox for "the likes of you".
No furball in the DA could ever duplicate the dynamics of an MA furball.
"Moving the bases closer together won't do anything but force the players down on the deck with no time to climb."
Bunk ... pure bunk. If you want alt then drop back 1 base and climb. If your a "buffer", then drop back 2 or 3 bases depending upon your required altitude for attack.That wouldn't be any worse off then what is now already the norm in Pizza and Trinity.
Those of us that like to knife fight in the weeds and at the top of the waves really shouldn't have to fly for long periods to achieve this and by ADDING/MOVING base to close the distance would serve all people.
All these proposals, as of late, by the "furball" society have been additions to existing setups and gameplay. Not one idea that I have seen detracts from any existing setup/gameplay that we areadly have, with the exception of perking bombs.
Please explain to me how ...
1) adding more fields (which I believe that NB is doing to Trinity) to close the distance between fields would be a detriment to the "strat" society ?
2) constructing an area, some how, like Tank Town, that would only support the early war plane set, be a detriment to the existing "strat" gameplay as we know it ?
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muck...what is the difference in flying around in circles (or off at an angle) or simply flying straight at the target if the alt and flight time is the same? Can't talk and turn at the same time?
as DMF points out... a bunch of sorties can be flown in an hour or two online.. most of us don't want to spend em sleeping like curval... it's ok curval little buddy you can fly with us anytime.
hubert... wind down tough guy. I think you have frightened all the people that you are ever gonna by now.
lazs
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Muck,
If you are attacking B1 and leave from B3, how is that any different than leaving from B5 after fields have been moved or added to make them closer ?
B1..............B2........... ...B3................B4...... .........B5
B1.....B2.....B3.....B4...... .B5
If the design and spacing are done right, there should never be any need to circle to gain alt for all the same reasons as we have now.
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Lazs, is it possible for you to possible make a point without being condescending?
Really, it is getting tiresome.
Slappy, even if we drop back to another field, we're still going to be closer to wherever the front line is. The whole thing boils down to making the arena much more condensed thereby limited the space for the bombers to get to altitiude before being intercepted.
You know what? This discussion is a waste of time and energy. It really is. Continue your crusade Lazs. Good luck to you.
I've got better things to do with my time.
AH2 will be out soon enough.
Maybe then you'll get what you want then.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"IF you want a furball go to the Duelling arena with all your friends ..."
I am so tired of hearing this cop-out when discussing the context of these threads. The main idea and purpose of these thread should be to put forth ideas to build/setup an MA arena that can be good for all. Not build another sandbox or go play in that sandbox for "the likes of you".
No furball in the DA could ever duplicate the dynamics of an MA furball.
"Moving the bases closer together won't do anything but force the players down on the deck with no time to climb."
Bunk ... pure bunk. If you want alt then drop back 1 base and climb. If your a "buffer", then drop back 2 or 3 bases depending upon your required altitude for attack.That wouldn't be any worse off then what is now already the norm in Pizza and Trinity.
Those of us that like to knife fight in the weeds and at the top of the waves really shouldn't have to fly for long periods to achieve this and by ADDING/MOVING base to close the distance would serve all people.
All these proposals, as of late, by the "furball" society have been additions to existing setups and gameplay. Not one idea that I have seen detracts from any existing setup/gameplay that we areadly have, with the exception of perking bombs.
Please explain to me how ...
1) adding more fields (which I believe that NB is doing to Trinity) to close the distance between fields would be a detriment to the "strat" society ?
2) constructing an area, some how, like Tank Town, that would only support the early war plane set, be a detriment to the existing "strat" gameplay as we know it ?
1. I don't have any problem with putting bases closer together on trinity. I have a problem with whining furballers who insist their bases be left alone.
2. Sounds to me like (and I know you don't want to hear this, slapshot) ...a duelling arena with more than two planes per duel. You can't have separation and togetherness at the same time. If you choose to play in the MA, you have to play with the players in the MA, too. They aren't roboplanes ala Falcon 4.0, and they're going to do what they want to do. And you can do what you want to do.
If what they do interferes with what you do, that's called "interaction". Interaction can be positive or negative. You see the interaction as negative, unless I roll over and wait patiently for you to shoot me down. (please note: the following is not intended as a whine) My scores and k/d would be much better if I didn't haul bombs around and get shot down by ack, defenders, and lost furballers. All of these interactions can prevent me from doing what I want to do. So what? The game would be predictable and boring without opponents.
Lassie wants to put the fields closer together to decrease travel time between fights--or so he says. If moving the fields closer together means that any plane (physics, now) gets less altitude because the travel distance is shorter, then what's the use? Moving back to another field to get more alt simply recreates the same conditions we had in the first place.
The strat game depends on isolating the target. Moving the fields closer together would make that more difficult, making the strat game more difficult. That's lassie's real agenda. He wants his furball field left alone, and wants there to be no incentive for attacking it. Therefore, he tries to eliminate the strat game by making it unproductive. He comes up with proposals to "fix" something that isn't broken, in order to manipulate the gameplay. That's not always a bad thing, but it would be more honorable to be honest about his agenda, instead of coming up with these "fixes" that are really changes to make the world more to his liking.
And, he's still a jerk.
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muck... so drop back 3 fields or fly backwards or at an angle... what am I missing? The maps will remain the same size.
lazs
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Design the map. put the bases where you want them. Set the hardness where you want it. Do the work, don't just shoot off your mouth demanding somebody else make the world the way you want it.
Your $15 a month gets you the right to play. If you get involved with the design guys, you can get the right to say how the game works.
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thank you for posting the rules tough guy.
lazs
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Originally posted by lassie
hubert... wind down tough guy. I think you have frightened all the people that you are ever gonna by now.
lazs
I'm not trying to frighten you, lassie. I am trying to convince you to modify your behavior. I know change can be difficult and scary, but sometimes you just have to be a man and grab for the brass ring.
Try not to transfer your fear of the process to those who are only trying to help you become a better person. Face the challenge, and come out the other side of the process a new lassie--better, wiser, and smarter for the experience. Cod knows you could use some improvement.
And, you're still a jerk.
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Originally posted by lazs2
thank you for posting the rules tough guy.
lazs
Those aren't rules, they're a process. Learn the difference.
You're still a jerk.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Muck,
If you are attacking B1 and leave from B3, how is that any different than leaving from B5 after fields have been moved or added to make them closer ?
B1..............B2........... ...B3................B4...... .........B5
B1.....B2.....B3.....B4...... .B5
If the design and spacing are done right, there should never be any need to circle to gain alt for all the same reasons as we have now.
I see what your saying, now, Slappy. As long as B1 and B2 are enemy fields and B3-5 are friendly, there wold be no difference, in my strategy. The only thing I could see affecting the bombers is if the interceptors decide to fly past B3 and intercept us at B4 where we would be at a lower altitude on the new system. Under the old system, the fighters would be less likely to have the fuel or the patience to make an interception behind the front.
I've considered the fact that there would be a furball going on between 2 and 3 but if the interceptors are smart, all they have to do is climb to 8k and overfly the low alt furball.
I've got a bad feeling fields being closer together will lead to more vulching, and single jabo field porking. Think about it. Moving the fields closer together makes the suicide porkers job easier. He can up and get to more fields faster. More dead fuel, more dead barracks, etc. Field capture will be much harder too. The goons will have to leave from much more distant bases, as the barracks will be porked, and fly past many more cons all in close proximity furballs, to get to the drop.
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naa..
lazs
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So you see, if we launch and fly direct, we'll be passing over the enemy base sooner, and therfore, at a much lower altitude which is a disadvantage for a bomber.
So why not take off from a rear base that's farther back? You need only choose a base that, in real terms, represents the same distance that you now travel in order to hit strategic targets. So if you used to choose a rear base that was three sectors away from your strategic target, you can still choose one that's three sectors away -- only it might be two or three bases farther back given relatively closer base positions.
You wouldn't spend any more time grabbing than you currently do, and as an added bonus most of the furball-style fights would occur lower than they do now, making your journey all the easier.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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muck.. in the old days with the old field capture and small fields only... people fought between the fields. I did too.. It even looked to the strat guys like I was "helping".... I was killing fighters... it mattered not that I was merely looking for a fight and didn't give a wit about who won or lost the field.
that is the point... the new maps and new players and "missuns" have seperated the two camps. They are at odds with each other and they get in each others way instead of being symbiotic.
moving the fields closer is the only way I can see to get the two camps to coexist in the arena again.
I welcome anyone elses ideas on how to get the two camps to coexist... despite what tough guy thinks my "agenda" is choice. if lack of choice is your agenda thenm we will be at odds.... otherwise.. we need to work together to make an arena that everyone can enjoy. one that is fair for both camps.
lazs
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DMF-
Please see above post. You must have been writing your reply as I was writing mine.
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"I have a problem with whining furballers who insist their bases be left alone.
I think that whine, for the most part, was dropped when the idea of adding more and closer fields was introduced. As I said before, I don't support the idea of perking bombs to solve the porking issue ... better ideas have been presented to deal with that.
"You see the interaction as negative"
Nope ... never said that. Interaction from JABO pilots and their escorts is what adds to the furball between two fields, if they so choose to fly in/thru the proximity of the furball ... That is what supports my statement that the dynamics of an MA furball could never be duplicated in a DA furball.
"If moving the fields closer together means that any plane (physics, now) gets less altitude because the travel distance is shorter, then what's the use?
Thanks for the physic lesson ... NOT !!! (not a needed comment - I have been playing this game long enough to know what is needed for climb out.)
What's the use ... the use is to appease those who like to fight at low alt - kinfe fights without having to spend 15-20 minutes to get there.
"Moving back to another field to get more alt simply recreates the same conditions we had in the first place."
Exactly the point ... no harm - no foul for those that feel the need to gain alt. Adding/moving fields closer would also serve those that like to fight in the "weeds" ... so why all the resistance ? Again, how does that hurt gameplay as we know it ?
"The strat game depends on isolating the target. Moving the fields closer together would make that more difficult, making the strat game more difficult."
Listen .. I am a card carrying member of both the "strat" and "furball" societys and have been a "strater" much longer than a "furballer", and for the life of me, I cannot see how adding/moving fields to closer proximites would hurt the strat game in any way. It just might add more to the strat game by making it a little more complex to take bases. Who's to know until its been tried.
I am not trying to be a smart bellybutton here, but please give me a hard example of how this concept would hurt the strat game ... what is it that the strat players are giving up ? ... I would really like to know.
"Therefore, he tries to eliminate the strat game by making it unproductive. He comes up with proposals to "fix" something that isn't broken, in order to manipulate the gameplay."
Isn't broke ? ... from where you stand it might not appear to be broken.
Its the old story of the guy in a neighborhood complains to the neighbor on his right about the neighbor on his left who has 4-5 junked cars sitting in plain view of his porch. He get no compassion from the neighbor on his right cause ... "It looks ok from where I sit". It all depends upon where your sitting !!!
I think that your distain for laz has given you a very myopic outlook on what is being asked for, and there are many more respected players here that are supportive of this concept and not because it was laz's idea, but rather because its a good idea that would really not hurt gameplay, but rather add to it.
Rather than you and beet1e playing point/counterpoint with laz, you would better serve your positions explaining in a practical sense how these ideas (and they all aren't laz's) won't work. You guys get no points for being cleverly rude and artfully condesending as opposed to laz's rather direct approach.
I have been reading with interest some of your counterpoints, but they have progressivly gone downhill in the content department ... there is no MEAT in your posts anymore, just a lot of testosterone.
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Originally posted by lazs2
hit percentage and score are the least useful stats... score indicates time up and hit percentage indicates type of guns or planes flown more than anything. All stats are useful for tracking personal goals or trends but K/H is the most useful for determining how much air combat is going on in the arena... the more gangbanging and steamrolleriing the less K/H average.
lazs
Set that average in bold. Personal K/hr doesn't show the number of fights fought, just the number of fights won.
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"I've got a bad feeling fields being closer together will lead to more vulching, and single jabo field porking. Think about it. Moving the fields closer together makes the suicide porkers job easier. He can up and get to more fields faster. More dead fuel, more dead barracks, etc. Field capture will be much harder too. The goons will have to leave from much more distant bases, as the barracks will be porked, and fly past many more cons all in close proximity furballs, to get to the drop."
Muck ... how could it be any worse than it is right now?
The porking (fuel, ord, barracks) needs to be addressed separately and there is another thread that is doing just that and its one that I also support.
HARDEN UP THE FIELDS ... add more mannable ack, harden the fuel cells and ord, and harden the VH is what I would support, but again, thats another thread.
Would making field capture harder, be worse ? I can't see why. With the average amount of players that we have now, I honestly believe that field capture is WAY TOO EASY and also needs to be looked at. If making objectives harder, in correlation with participation levels, is wrong, then this game will eventually fail. I encourage change and challange.
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Just put the fields so close together (e.g. half distance than now) that both attackers and defenders can up from a different field that the war is fought over.
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slap... not so sure that field capture per se is too easy.. i do think that field porking is too easy. I would not be opposed to field capture occuring automatically after all the objects were knocked down including the manable ack.
lazs
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Hey, here's an idea.
Add more ports so that there will be more carriers. Then you can move the carriers as close to each other as you want.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
So why not take off from a rear base that's farther back? You need only choose a base that, in real terms, represents the same distance that you now travel in order to hit strategic targets. So if you used to choose a rear base that was three sectors away from your strategic target, you can still choose one that's three sectors away -- only it might be two or three bases farther back given relatively closer base positions.
You wouldn't spend any more time grabbing than you currently do, and as an added bonus most of the furball-style fights would occur lower than they do now, making your journey all the easier.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I think my picture was trying to portray exactly what Lev just put into words ... I'm a picture guy ... :D
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Originally posted by gofaster
Hey, here's an idea.
Add more ports so that there will be more carriers. Then you can move the carriers as close to each other as you want.
Thats another one of Laz's crappy ideas ... j/k ... :D
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Originally posted by rshubert
And, he's still a jerk.
Sheesh...not as big as the one you're starting to sound like.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by lazs2
slap... not so sure that field capture per se is too easy.. i do think that field porking is too easy. I would not be opposed to field capture occuring automatically after all the objects were knocked down including the manable ack.
lazs
nah .. that would mean that the whole field needs to be scorched earth and when the capture happens, then the field is un-useable for moving offesively or defending.
Nothing wrong with making some objectives harder than what they are now.
When the new bomb sight came out, the pissin' and moaning was very high, but what do we hear of it now ... nothing ... those who are true bombers took the challange and can now drop those bombs as precisely as they did before. That bomb sight only eliminated those, like me, who really have no patience for that from popping/porking anything that I wanted.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
nah .. that would mean that the whole field needs to be scorched earth and when the capture happens, then the field is un-useable for moving offesively or defending.
Nothing wrong with making some objectives harder than what they are now.
When the new bomb sight came out, the pissin' and moaning was very high, but what do we hear of it now ... nothing ... those who are true bombers took the challange and can now drop those bombs as precisely as they did before. That bomb sight only eliminated those, like me, who really have no patience for that from popping/porking anything that I wanted.
I liked how in AW you only had 5 minutes to capture the field after prepping it for capture. It created some great furballs and fights.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Furious
Sherbert doesn't care, he wants you tro be miserable with him.
ROFL. Somebody finally "discovered" my other typical nickname.
I'm not miserable.
The additional 3-4 minutes of CLIMB TIME that I would lose is bad for a strat attack. Typically, I have to climb all the way to the base now, as it is, in my P38--a plane with a great sustained climb when heavy. It puts the F4U-1D right out of it. I fly the 38 instead of the dhog to kill strat for only one reason--climb rate when heavy. IMO, the dhog is a much better dive bombing platform. I would be forced to move back 1 base.
Making ME move back 1 base is selfish on your part. Now I would have longer flight times, and a greater chance of getting intercepted and shot down. That would be a benefit for you, and a disadvantage for me.
You guys want the "suicide dweeb strat killers" to stop, but are only trying to set it up so they need to spend more time in transit or have a better chance of getting killed. It's a vast winged conspiracy, that's what it is.;)
My original point from several weeks ago still applies: If you don't like the way the game is played, get another game. Don't try to change it for everybody else. We (the other players) didn't change the game rules, we use them to play it our way.
Lassie, you're still a jerk. Now a two-faced jerk, with your reply that you don't think base CAPTURE is too hard. CAPTURE is a process, involving defense suppression (porking) and town capture phases. Don't try to deny that you think the base capture process is too easy. It is disingenuous.
Did I remember to remind you that you are still a jerk? Oh, I guess I did. Well, repetition is a good way to reinforce a point.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Sheesh...not as big as the one you're starting to sound like.
Ack-Ack
Ack-Ack, lassie asked for it. He begged for it. Now he's gonna get it. He is insufferable.
Every post I make will reference the fact that he is a complete jerk. Just like this one. It's my new mission in life. I feel young again, a man with a purpose.
I think I will start a "LASSIE IS A JERK" thread, and get a web site going dedicated to the exploration of lassie's jerkness (is that a word?)
And lassie, you're still a jerk. Come to the light, lassie. Move into the light.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Did I remember to remind you that you are still a jerk? Oh, I guess I did. Well, repetition is a good way to reinforce a point.
Dude, let it go. If you ever had a good point to make, it was lost in this bout of ad hominem obsessiveness. You're making yourself look like an idiot without Lazs even having to say a word.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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"Making ME move back 1 base is selfish on your part. Now I would have longer flight times, and a greater chance of getting intercepted and shot down. That would be a benefit for you, and a disadvantage for me."
You just don't get it. I draw pictures, Lev explains it very succinctly.
Today ..
The base that you want to attack (A12) is 1 sector away from the base that you launch from (A13).
Tomorrow ...
A field (A11) is added between A12 and A13. How is your flight any longer if you leave from the same field (A13) and attack the same field (A12).
Literally ... yes ... you have been moved back 1 base, physically ... no you haven't.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Dude, let it go. If you ever had a good point to make, it was lost in this bout of ad hominem obsessiveness. You're making yourself look like an idiot without Lazs even having to say a word.
-- Todd/Leviathn
It's my dime, my time, and my opinion. Thank you for yours. You're on his side of the debate, and trying to pressure me to get out of it. And that's ok, because it's your dime, your time, and your opinion.
I'll let go of lassie's tail when he stops being such a jerk on the message boards. Until then, I will attack, attack, attack. Back in the early days of message boards (back when they were called bb systems, before the internet was a big thing) we called clowns like him "Flamers".
Lassie, you're still a jerk. And a clown.
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hubert.. i bet your defenition of "jerk" would be very entertaining.
Look hubert... you don't have to take off and fly straight to the target you wish to crash into. you can manouver... you know, move the stick a little other than forward and back.. I don't see the problem. can't think and turn at the same time? maybe I am wrong tho...
maybe you do household chores while on auto climb and if you had to actually turn you would not be able to complete them? Maybe you are a heavy smoker and need to step outside for a smoke? still no problem... either take off from a base back from the action or simply take of at an angle to the base you wish to crash into.
no one is trying to stop you from doing talentless, boring stuff... we simply don't want to be bored ouselves or have your lack of talent affect us so much... hey, just trying to help tough guy.
lazs
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hubert... I don't want to be rude (sorry rude) but that isn't my tail you have ahold of... I appreciate the sentiment but I am not that way (not that there is anything wrong with that).
If you continue to trample the flowers outside my bedroom window at night I will have to get a restraining order. I'm sorry but you leave me no choice... no means no tough guy!
lazs
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"I'll let go of lassie's tail when he stops being such a jerk on the message boards.
I think we all figured out what your real agenda is ... and it has nothing to do with gameplay.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"Making ME move back 1 base is selfish on your part. Now I would have longer flight times, and a greater chance of getting intercepted and shot down. That would be a benefit for you, and a disadvantage for me."
You just don't get it. I draw pictures, Lev explains it very succinctly.
Today ..
The base that you want to attack (A12) is 1 sector away from the base that you launch from (A13).
Tomorrow ...
A field (A11) is added between A12 and A13. How is your flight any longer if you leave from the same field (A13) and attack the same field (A12).
Literally ... yes ... you have been moved back 1 base, physically ... no you haven't.
Actually, the proposal was to decrease the distance between fields by 10%, from lassie. That's the one I am responding to, not to your proposal of cutting the distance in half.
Okey-dokey, math lesson time...
1.......................2.... ..................3
bases 1, 2, and 3 are currently (for the purpose of this lesson) 40 miles apart. Bases 1 and 2 are mine, three is yours.
If I launch from 2 to 3, and climb at 175 mph, it takes about 14 minutes to get from 2 to 3. Assume 1200 fpm climb (heavy), and I have climbed to ~17000 ft above base 2 altitude. If the bases are co-alt, I'm well above the ack, above most of the defenders, and can deliver ord and maybe get out alive.
Now move the bases 10% (4 miles) closer together, per the proposal. Launching from 2 to 3, the transit time becomes 12.3 minutes, and the alt gain is 14800 feet. Too close to the defenders, and a drop run will put me too far down in the ack. I want to be higher than that, so I will launch from 1.
Launching from one, I spend 14 minutes (the same 40 miles) to get to alt, then level and run into target, travelling an additional 32 miles at 300 mph or so. That's an additional 6.4 minutes for me to travel.
That gives the defenders 6.4 minutes more to get in position to intercept me. That means the difference between 50% fuel and 75% fuel in some planes. That exposes me to at least 6.4 minutes more of fighters on the way out. All to save a furballer pilot 2 miles worth of travel time getting to the furball--assuming his opponent saves 2 miles, also. at 150 mph climb , that's about 48 seconds.
Now who is being asked to make the larger adjustment, here? Why should I add 13 minutes (assuming two-way travel) to every flight I make to save you one 1 minute 36 seconds?
Play with the numbers as you like, but the results will be similar. And lassie is still a jerk. A selfish jerk.
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Originally posted by lazs2
hubert... I don't want to be rude (sorry rude) but that isn't my tail you have ahold of... I appreciate the sentiment but I am not that way (not that there is anything wrong with that).
If you continue to trample the flowers outside my bedroom window at night I will have to get a restraining order. I'm sorry but you leave me no choice... no means no tough guy!
lazs
Yup, here we are, back to your latent homosexual fantasy thingie. At least, I .think it's latent.
Lassie, I don't want to pull your d**k, but I do think you ARE one.
And a jerk. Never forget that I think you are a jerk.
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So, is beet1e really rshubert or not?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"I'll let go of lassie's tail when he stops being such a jerk on the message boards.
I think we all figured out what your real agenda is ... and it has nothing to do with gameplay.
I have a gameplay agenda, too. But I do want the whole world to know I think Lassie is a jerk. A gay jerk, maybe--not that there's anything wrong with that.
Did I remember to mention that lassie is a jerk?
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Well, this thread most certainly reflects the presence of a jerk, but it's not Laz.
IMO.
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Originally posted by Toad
So, is beet1e really rshubert or not?
No. Would you please respond to the calculations post, and explain where I am wrong?
And, yes, America...Lassie is still a jerk.
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tough guy... if you took off from field 2 to get to field 3 and they were 10% closer.. you could simply not fly straight to the tool shed you wish to crash into... you could take off from 2 at an angle and then switch course you could make the trip last exactly the same length of time as if you 10% further away or... even longer if you were on the phone with the florist.... oh yeah... nice of you to send the flowers but I am too old to change. (not that there is anything wrong with that!).
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, this thread most certainly reflects the presence of a jerk, but it's not Laz.
IMO.
Now, toad, don't get into the whole name-calling thing we have going on here. I already have your new nickname picked out, and I don't want to have to use it...:)
I'm acting like a jerk (as oposed to actually being one, IMO) to show lassie what it's like to be on the receiving end of the kind of crap he puts out. He treats other people badly sometimes, and I react to that. Maybe he will learn something from this, but I doubt it. Because, after all, and I will say it again...
lassie is a jerk.
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"Okey-dokey, math lesson time... "
Logic lesson time ... Math is too easy to make what you want it to be ... logic on the other hand is not.
Your example demonstrates that you only prefer to fly to target as "the crow" flys.
Leave base 2 at an angle on your climbout for 3, and adjust angle back to 3 to aquire same altitude and same time travelled. I didn't need any fancy algorythms to figure that one out ... just logic.
This would effectivly take you around the furball, which I think would be good, and you still have everything you need to accomplish the task at hand and the "furballers" have what they need.
Too much to ask that you use the angle climbout so that a lot of people can be happy?
Just noticed laz beat me to the rshubert conumdrum. Geesh .. even a JERK can figure it out.
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geeze.. you people (not that there is anything wrong with that!) take rejection really badly.... Ok, allright... I'm sorry that I'm straight and it has nothing to do with you personaly... I did enjoy the flowers burt will have to turn down the weekend in frisco invitation... again... nothing personal and I hope you find someone more "like" yourself. I might have been a little insensitive in my rejection tho so...
if it makes you feel any better to call me a jerk then go ahead. go ahead and have a good cry while you are at it... i'm sure no one here will think the worse of you.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
tough guy... if you took off from field 2 to get to field 3 and they were 10% closer.. you could simply not fly straight to the tool shed you wish to crash into... you could take off from 2 at an angle and then switch course you could make the trip last exactly the same length of time as if you 10% further away or... even longer if you were on the phone with the florist.... oh yeah... nice of you to send the flowers but I am too old to change. (not that there is anything wrong with that!).
lazs
Lassie, the flowers were for you to give to your boyfriend. Please give them to him. I know how you guys are sensitive to that kind of gesture--not that there is anything wrong with that. How's that interior decorating class going? Meet anybody new? Be sure to always use protection, since HIV is a plague in the "alternate lifestyle" community. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Listen, i swear that isn't me hanging around outside your window. Perhaps one of your ex-lovers? I hear that the "alternate lifestyle" bunch move from companion to companion a lot, a very sad consequence of the "cruiser" way of life. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
That is the first sensible answer you have given to a question to date. I could go wide. I just don't want to, like you don't want to spend the extra 45 seconds getting to the furball. The other objections to moving bases closer still stand--isolation becomes more difficult.
And, you're still a jerk.
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Originally posted by lazs2
geeze.. you people (not that there is anything wrong with that!) take rejection really badly.... Ok, allright... I'm sorry that I'm straight and it has nothing to do with you personaly... I did enjoy the flowers burt will have to turn down the weekend in frisco invitation... again... nothing personal and I hope you find someone more "like" yourself. I might have been a little insensitive in my rejection tho so...
if it makes you feel any better to call me a jerk then go ahead. go ahead and have a good cry while you are at it... i'm sure no one here will think the worse of you.
lazs
Geez lassie, you really need to get a grip on this fantasy life of yours. I don't mind being the object of your insane gay lust as long as there is no consummation, so to speak, but you're getting a bit obsessive. And I would prefer not to know about it, since it makes me feel uncomfortable.
But, I've gotta admit, it is getting very entertaining. And just goes to show that you are STILL a jerk.
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Originally posted by rshubert
I think I will start a "LASSIE IS A JERK" thread, and get a web site going dedicated to the exploration of lassie's jerkness (is that a word?)
And remove all doubt that you're an ass? It will be a funny thread but somehow I don't think the joke will be on Laz.
Ack-Ack
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"I could go wide. I just don't want to, like you don't want to spend the extra 45 seconds getting to the furball.
There ya go ... I knew you had it in you.
You have no interest in gameplay, and your statement proves it. Your agenda is a personal crusade. I'm done with you.
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K/T beet1e? Several examples of how accuerate that factor is:
1 - A poor guy flying C202 that, after enganging with ten bandits, destroyed one, damaged three and got a single assist. Then that C202 made its way home pinging a last enemy. 20 mins flight, 1 kill. 3 k/h.
2 - A niki vulching at an enemy base, getting 8 kills and then crashing against the control tower. 10 mins flight, 8 kills. 48 k/h.
3 - A La7 taking off from an attacked field and killing 3 heavy jabos before crashing. 5 mins flight, 3 kills. 36 k/h.
4 - A P51 scorting a group of buffs towards a far away enemy base. 45 mins flight, no kills but all buffs returning alive. 0 k/h.
5 - A 262 traveling an entire sector, killing 3 enemies, then rtb to initial base. 10 mins flight, 3 kills. 18 k/h.
6 - A 109G10 capping friendly HQ, intercepting several buff waves killing 2 of them and damaging four more. 25 mins flight, 2 kills. 8 k/h.
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mandoble.. you give examples of single sorties with set parameters when in the real MA things average out over an entire tour. If you onlyu flew one plane and it happened to be a 202 or spit one or hurri one then I could see your point since they have such a hard time getting a kill. everything else would average out...
The niki couldn' t count on finding a vultch ... the 262 might have planes sucessfully dodge him all tour... etc.
even if you fly only one type of plane every tour ... your k/h would still be a good indicator of how changes to the arena affected the action.
a person flying a 202 agressivly in a good arena would still have a higher k/h than one who was timid.
lazs
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Hey Skuzzy ... I hear the head hitting the wall in this thread.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"I could go wide. I just don't want to, like you don't want to spend the extra 45 seconds getting to the furball.
There ya go ... I knew you had it in you.
You have no interest in gameplay, and your statement proves it. Your agenda is a personal crusade. I'm done with you.
Bye-bye (giggle)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And remove all doubt that you're an ass? It will be a funny thread but somehow I don't think the joke will be on Laz.
Ack-Ack
Ack-ack, I gotta take the shot. I just gotta. I can't help myself, you left an opening I could drive a P38 through...
What is this fascination with my ass??
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Originally posted by rshubert
If I launch from 2 to 3, and climb at 175 mph, it takes about 14 minutes to get from 2 to 3. Assume 1200 fpm climb (heavy), and I have climbed to ~17000 ft above base 2 altitude. If the bases are co-alt, I'm well above the ack, above most of the defenders, and can deliver ord and maybe get out alive.
That's really really easy to solve.
Airstarts, for lights, heavys and bombs alike.
Fair fighting no matter how far the fields are.
Equal climb times (=0) for all.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
K/T beet1e? Several examples of how accuerate that factor is:
I know someone who claims to be able to prove that someone is a runner by looking at K/D and K/hr ;)
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In before the lock.
I dont know who this hubert is but he shure is annoying.
He might even get put on probation for his continued personal attacks against Lazs.
Yet somehow I feel safer with hubert showing us the difference between right and wrong and protecting us :p
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
K/T beet1e? Several examples of how accuerate that factor is:
1 - A poor guy flying C202 that, after enganging with ten bandits, destroyed one, damaged three and got a single assist. Then that C202 made its way home pinging a last enemy. 20 mins flight, 1 kill. 3 k/h.
2 - A niki vulching at an enemy base, getting 8 kills and then crashing against the control tower. 10 mins flight, 8 kills. 48 k/h.
3 - A La7 taking off from an attacked field and killing 3 heavy jabos before crashing. 5 mins flight, 3 kills. 36 k/h.
4 - A P51 scorting a group of buffs towards a far away enemy base. 45 mins flight, no kills but all buffs returning alive. 0 k/h.
5 - A 262 traveling an entire sector, killing 3 enemies, then rtb to initial base. 10 mins flight, 3 kills. 18 k/h.
6 - A 109G10 capping friendly HQ, intercepting several buff waves killing 2 of them and damaging four more. 25 mins flight, 2 kills. 8 k/h.
The mathematics might have some bearing, but is inapplicable to non-fighter sorties. My P47 buff intercept sortie is a case in point. I had to fly to HQ - a long flight, then locate the buff formations. After I killed the first one, he has informed his friends. So I have to go hunting for the other two groups. A long flight. Can't remember my fuel loadout - was probably 75% plus a 75 gallon drop tank.
On other occasions, I'll up a 109G10 to play with some Spits. With the benefit of tuition from Urchin, Grunherz and Ecke, I was able to get two 6-kill sorties back to back. (Just saying that to piss Lazs off ;) ) So, to add to your list:
7 - A 109G10 mixing it with some Spit Noobs (later a YAK), killing 6 of them. 11½ mins flight, 31k/h. :D Actually the flight is clipped - the RTB phase has been truncated, as some people reading this wouldn't understand things like that. ;)
Click here to get the film (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/109G10_tour41_6.zip). I always like to substantiate my claims. :)
But I like Rshubert's maths lesson better. He makes some good points. I am not against game changes where there is a clear problem which adversely affects everyone. But I am vehemently against game changes when the only justification is to favour one particular gameplay style, to the detriment of all others.
It's late. Bedways is rightways just now. Time to get me some spatchka.
Toodle-Pip. :)
(http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/unionjack.gif)
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Originally posted by Drunky
In before the lock.
I dont know who this hubert is but he shure is annoying.
He might even get put on probation for his continued personal attacks against Lazs.
Yet somehow I feel safer with hubert showing us the difference between right and wrong and protecting us :p
I get called names, you think that I should be put on probation when I respond in kind?
Read the threads, drunky. It's mutual combat. And Lassie is a jerk.
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i gotta stick my .02 in and laugh at the anklehumpingslobberdonkeystat weeniehordemonkeys before it gets locked.
:D
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Mutual combat...
Shubert you were reversed when you started this current tack of posting.
Your first mistake was thinking it was a fight.
Your second was thinking there was something to win.
Let it die, your looking bad.
Your turning into a pull-chain toy.
But hey, do what ya want. It's your keyboard.
..and it's free
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Originally posted by rshubert
Now, toad, don't get into the whole name-calling thing we have going on here. I already have your new nickname picked out, and I don't want to have to use it...:)
I'm acting like a jerk
See, I'm not name-calling anyone.
I just hold up mirrors and some folks choose to preen themseleves in public.
Nice of you to admit it, however.
Please do call me a name... I find your self-absorbed preening entertaining.
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Originally posted by nopoop
But hey, do what ya want. It's your keyboard.
..and it's free
he's new, too.
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Originally posted by rshubert
It's my dime, my time, and my opinion. Thank you for yours. You're on his side of the debate, and trying to pressure me to get out of it. And that's ok, because it's your dime, your time, and your opinion.
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Your dime does not entitle you to constantly harrass other players on this free forum. You've gone beyond stating your opinion into acting like a lovelorn sixth grade love muffin. I'm not trying to "pressure you" into getting out of the debate. On the contrary, I'm trying to explain to you how your behavior undermines the very positions you're attempting to argue regardless of their validity. If you'd drop the ad hominem, people might actually take you and your arguments seriously.
I'll let go of lassie's tail when he stops being such a jerk on the message boards. Until then, I will attack, attack, attack.
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Let Lazs dig his own grave if that's what he's going to do. In the meantime, here you are digging your own and not even realizing it.
Back in the early days of message boards (back when they were called bb systems, before the internet was a big thing) we called clowns like him "Flamers".
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And I wonder what they called people like you who got so bent out of shape by "Flamers" that they acted infinitely worse in comparison.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by rshubert
What is this fascination with my ass??
We're all wondering just how in the hell did you get your head so far up it.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by sonostudmuffinun
The only problem I've seen is that my sleep schedule has gone to crap since I've been playing
Heheh, that gets better with time. Welcome.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
nah .. that would mean that the whole field needs to be scorched earth and when the capture happens, then the field is un-useable for moving offesively or defending.
Nothing wrong with making some objectives harder than what they are now.
When the new bomb sight came out, the pissin' and moaning was very high, but what do we hear of it now ... nothing ... those who are true bombers took the challange and can now drop those bombs as precisely as they did before. That bomb sight only eliminated those, like me, who really have no patience for that from popping/porking anything that I wanted.
i think we need field damage required kinda like AW did to capture.AW required 75% of each catgory be destroyed.
so that would mean, to take a field, u would have to kill the town completely as now, but also you would need 75%(or something close) of base to be ded. small field for example:
2 of 3 FHs, 1 of 2 BHs, VH, ack, 2 ammo, all barracks, 3 of 4 fuel, and radar tower.
the simple kill the town take the field is too easy as it is.
whels
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...dbl post..
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...wow trpl post...
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
We're all wondering just how in the hell did you get your head so far up it.
Ack-Ack
LOL
In before lock - and best assessment yet :).
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Rshubert,
Pipe down.. (big deal if Lazs gets under your skin.. ITs freaking text... How does text cause harm to you... If he said I have your real name and you are at this address now haze him fellas then I might have some sympathy for your cause... All I have for you now is Chimpathy....)
You act as if you have a rep to uphold... Your skills dont derserve a rep... and your mentality aint building one either..
Im no nice guy ... but at least I back up what I stand for with skill...
Get some skill then the board will hear you out.... (maybe, a cookie might help too)
and on that note:
CHIMPATHY..... Oh the horror.. the horror..
2 cents,
DoctorYo
PS: Before anyone... says how ironic that is comming from DoctorYo I beat you to the punch line....
:p
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First, since kills/hour is what this thread is supposed to be about (dam hijackers :)), I will toss out my opinion. All stats, including this one, are worthless. They can be manipulated, thus becoming invalid. The easiest way to up your k/h is to follow those lemming conga lines to a field under attack, vulch til you run outta ammo and then auger it. The only stat that is valid is f/h...fun/hour.
Second, none of the fields in Trinity have been "moved closer". In reality, all of the fields are within HT's prescribed distance limits. The problem with it is that "fields" includes air, gv and ports. What has been done to Trinity is to add 3 fields to each forward zone to fill in 'holes' and convert about 5 gv fields per zone to airfields. Bottomline, this should make no difference to the strat player whatsoever. What it will do is make the conga lines shorter :D. As much as I hate to admit it, Lazs has a point. One which he has stated, restated...restated...restate d... etc...ad nauseum.
Third, actually, the field distances in the desert are less of a problem than the alts. I hate having to climb 6 or 7k just to be co-alt with the dam field I am trying to get to. This is why I chose to place most of the fields in Trinity at 5k or less.
Finally, if you really want to turn AH into a furballer's paradise...don't lobby for closer fields. Lobby, instead, for an hourly rate. Start chargin per hour and the max alt in the game would drop by 75% overnight :). When AW was $6 per hour, the average alt was around 5k. Anyone 10 or above...was an alt-monkey (and probably free-flagged :)).
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Your dime does not entitle you to constantly harrass other players on this free forum. You've gone beyond stating your opinion into acting like a lovelorn sixth grade love muffin. I'm not trying to "pressure you" into getting out of the debate. On the contrary, I'm trying to explain to you how your behavior undermines the very positions you're attempting to argue regardless of their validity. If you'd drop the ad hominem, people might actually take you and your arguments seriously.
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Dear Y'all,
DMF, I didn't start the personal attacks. In a thread last week, I asked him to stop, and he didn't. So I started feeding him his own s**t.
The lassie thing is really between lassie and I. I haven't "gone after" anybody who didn't "go after" me first, and don't try to deny it--the proof is right there in the threads. I have refrained from reacting to many flames here, and will continue to do so in the future. I don't mind discussing issues of mutual interest in a civil manner, but I get pissed when it gets personal. It doesn't even need to be aimed at me, I get pissed when somebody flames others. It's part of my personality.
Heck, we even had a thread where lassie and friends tried to "set me straight". It all depends on your definition of straight.
Most people can be irritating, and I know I can. You all can, too. I will express my opinion, and defend it appropriately. When someone tells me my opinion is stupid, or based on some perceived personal fault, I will flame back. If someone takes the argument to a personal level, I will too. i can insult with the best of them.
Many of you do those things, and expect to get away with it without retaliation from the other parties. That is not the way the world works. When you say ugly things to people, they tend to say ugly things back. I know I do. I don't expect a passive response if I insult or demean someone. Why should I?
Some of you gather together and "pick on" other people. I can only compare that type of activity to the schoolyard bully and his sycophants. I react strongly to bullying, and always have. Would you want your kids to see the kind of things you say/write to other people?
I saw a sticky on the O club board, to the effect that it's time to be civil. I wasn't a participant in any of those threads (better term would be flame wars), but some of you were. I think we ALL (and yes, I mean YOU, too) need to dial the testosterone back a little bit. You say that "it's just words", and you are correct. But remember, words mean stuff. Words start fights. Words start wars. (No, I am not threatening anyone)
An earlier post on one of the other threads claimed that lassie is a really good guy in person. I will never get to know that, because I met lassie through his insulting online presence. He goes out of his way to verbally attack other people. That's his loss, not mine. I think that people that hide behind anonymity to insult and belittle others are not worth knowing. That opinion will probably not change, even if I find out that lassie is actually the Archbishop of Chicago or the reincarnation of Mahatma Ghandi.
I'm not the only person that has posted a similar opinion.
Think about it: The only interaction we get is on this board. You guys identify lassie as a flamer, TW9 as a windbag, and me as a real a**hole. What do you think other people think of you? It must be important, because your opinion of other people is important to you.
If anyone wants my real identity, please contact me directly. We can talk.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
We're all wondering just how in the hell did you get your head so far up it.
Ack-Ack
Be nice, ack-ack. You'll notice I wasn't rude to you until you were rude to me. And lassie doesn't need you to defend him, he's a big boy.
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"Many of you do those things, and expect to get away with it without retaliation from the other parties. That is not the way the world works. When you say ugly things to people, they tend to say ugly things back. I know I do. I don't expect a passive response if I insult or demean someone. Why should I?
Because it leads to exactly where you are now ... nowhere.
"I haven't "gone after" anybody who didn't "go after" me first, and don't try to deny it--the proof is right there in the threads."
I responded to a lot of your post in what I would consider a repectable manner and all I got from you was condecending responses ....
"If moving the fields closer together means that any plane (physics, now) gets less altitude because the travel distance is shorter, then what's the use?"
"Okey-dokey, math lesson time..."
You don't know me ... you don't know if I dig ditches, drive trucks, or if I am a brain surgeon, or a rocket scientist, yet you feel that need to respond to my post with physics and math lessons like you are somewhat lofty and above me.
And to beat all, I respond to your math lesson with logic and your response is ...
"I just don't want to, like you don't want to spend the extra 45 seconds getting to the furball."
Showed a lot of character.
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Here's a respectful point by point response to your recent post.
1. Then why start the mudslinging? That was my point. The original mudslinger, here, is our boy lassie. But once it starts, it's like a school of sharks. Everybody wants a bite.
2. Please give examples of me responding to you rudely. I can only find three direct responses to you in this thread, none of which i consider to be condescending or rude. I suggest you get that chip off your shoulder.
3. I think my method of explaining my point was nicer than the "why can't you understand simple stuff" crack you made. For you, it appears that one thing I say is rude, another is condescending. I notice that it takes a lot of work to get a response to the ideas, rather than the personal stuff. That theme is evident throughout these threads, from many of us. Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?
4. the rest of the response was not quoted, where I noted that IMO putting the fields closer together makes isolating them more difficult, making strat play more difficult. Please don't quote me out of context. As for the "i just don't want to line", wouldn't you consider honesty to be a character trait:)
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Here's a respectful point by point response to your recent post.
1. Then why start the mudslinging? That was my point. The original mudslinger, here, is our boy lassie. But once it starts, it's like a school of sharks. Everybody wants a bite.
I slung no mud in my responses ...
2. Please give examples of me responding to you rudely. I can only find three direct responses to you in this thread, none of which i consider to be condescending or rude. I suggest you get that chip off your shoulder.
As long as you don't feel as though they are condecending then it's ok ?
I gave you two examples where you felt the need to give me a "physics" and a "math" lesson ... neither of which I need. I dont' have a chip on my shoulder ... just a battery ... :D
3. I think my method of explaining my point was nicer than the "why can't you understand simple stuff" crack you made. For you, it appears that one thing I say is rude, another is condescending. I notice that it takes a lot of work to get a response to the ideas, rather than the personal stuff. That theme is evident throughout these threads, from many of us. Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?
I am always about ... The Solution.
4. the rest of the response was not quoted, where I noted that IMO putting the fields closer together makes isolating them more difficult, making strat play more difficult. Please don't quote me out of context. As for the "i just don't want to line", wouldn't you consider honesty to be a character trait:)
The point of quoting your responses was not continue the debating of the pros and cons of closer bases, but rather to point where you yourself, IMHO, were rude and condecending, therefore there was no need to display the whole quote.
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rude and condescending all day. I reviewed your responses, and still feel they were kind of smartassed. Mine were, probably. I have not accused you of mudslinging, however. My reference was to lassie, by name. Your responses were well within the realm of polite society, in my opinion. I don't have any beef with you.
That being said, and in view of the fact that we disagree on the facts, let's just drop it, you and I. Please get out from in front of lassie. He doesn't need your help, he can insult very well without it. He just can't discuss facts without disrespecting people.
Part of the problem may be that people on his side of the argument get painted with the same brush when it comes to the discussion. It must be hard to be seen as a decent person when you hang around with jerks, and support them in their jerkiness. (I'm still having trouble with that term, can somebody help, here? Is it jerkdom, jerkity, or jerkitude, or what?)
I'll back off lassie when he gets some respect for others. Until then, I'll call a rake a rake, and a spade a damned shovel.
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nobady.. i don't think stats are worthless.. I think they can show trends. If gunnery got harder the trend would be for average hit percentage to go down.. if it got easier the hit percentage would go up.
K/H... you say all a person needs to do is follow the horde a sector and a half and vultch the guys that will obligingly keep poping up on the runway.. that may happen... 1 in ten times... most likely if you are in infinity or pizza tho you will have a long folight to nowhere. if you are in a fast plane you will more than likely lose the vultchs to someone like me who will kill em on the runway before you even start to turn to line up and be lined up for the next plane befor the rest of the building battlers point out there is one.
I think that to get a K/H average (over a tour or two) of over 7 or 10 or so... you have to look for the fight that is close. If the map does not offer the opportunity for furballs then the k/h for everyone will be down... everyone will be fighting for scraps when they are not too busy hiding from the hordes... look at the kill buffer in pizza or infinity... it is painful... mostly chat.
So... let's get some average stats and see if I am right. I mean... you could be right and I could be wrong but .... probly huberts would fly out of our butts before that ever happened. still.... I am open minded about it..
Lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
If you dissagree with me I will get all my friends to beat you up.
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I am not standing in front of laz, he can take care of himself, nor do I condone his style of posting .... but I do support some of his ideas.
Its too bad the "broad" brush has to surface in some of these threads.
<>
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OK, a thought...no really, I have had them, once or twice ;)
I have gone through tours where i tried to stay alive, land my sorties and was a bit of a runner. No fun running all the time, but I would beat it out of there if outnumbered, out flown or low on ammo / fuel. Other tours i have not cared and spent my time looking for any fight I could find. Some tours i spent a lot of time battling "tool-sheds".
Well i looked at my stats and....
Cant say that my K/H changed much from tour to tour. all within 2.0 to 3.6 range. lasz has a point, but I am against moving ALL the fields closer.....I would like to see some closer, some farther...and definately want them all harder to pork. The argument has gone on so long, I am not sure if this isn't what lasz has been saying all along.....I seem to remember something to that effect before. Now you have to realize i am not very good so the stats mentioned probably dont have much bearing, but it is my opinion that K/H alone (or any stat alone) will not necessarilly give you the whole answer. The guys with a high K/H are just too good for me....and those are the guys i run into in a furball......so we need a D/H to make it simple (I know you can figure it out with enough algebra /trig/geometry / rocket science) for boobs like me. :D
Oh, rshubert.....if someone is annoying you, why not ignore them? Berating them will not help (as should be obvious by now) and makes for just that much more ill will on the BBS. OK, the advice column is closed now. :p
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Originally posted by lazs2
K/H... you say all a person needs to do is follow the horde a sector and a half and vultch the guys that will obligingly keep poping up on the runway.. that may happen... 1 in ten times...
That is what happen 10 of 10 times with bishops.
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mandoble... think about it... if a horde is vultching then everyone in the horde can't be getting a great k/h sortie out of it... I notice that one or two players get all the kills in a vultch situation.
timid players remain timid no matter what the situation... even if you hand em little flightless baby birds on a platter. I can easily get a higher K/h by going where the fight is large and fairly even than by taking a chance of flying over a sector, waiting for the building battlers to kill the ack, and then hoping someone will be stupid enough to try to up.
lazs
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I am not standing in front of laz, he can take care of himself, nor do I condone his style of posting .... but I do support some of his ideas.
Its too bad the "broad" brush has to surface in some of these threads.
<>
Unfortunately, some of those ideas would seem to have selfish motives. For example, Lazs has been at pains to point out how inconvenient it is for him to have the fuel at his field porked back to 25%. I have already pointed more than one solution to this, including taking off from one field further back. Lazs wouldn't like that because of the extra time involved. And yet, in Lazs's utopian arena, in which the fields are closer together, the buffs would not have time to reach a safe alt... and the furballers' solution to that? Take off from one field further back. Hmmmm. May I respectfully point out that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I think Rshubert covered it in the maths lesson.
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lazs, timid players dont count. They do not exist, they are just like trees. Who cares about them? As I said, they are not a danger and they are not targets. But, about K/T and our maps, today I've spent more than one hour to find and kill two lonewolfs. The last one was averagely good, and looking for his position on the map, he probably was also looking for targets for more than half an hour just to end killed.
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bettle... i see you subscribe to herberts new math... "a straight line is the only possible path an AH building battler can take".
mandoble... average is average... some fly like you... some fly like me... I get 10-12 kills and hour it doesn't matter... with closer fields yu would find more targets and have a higher K/H even the talentless would have higher k/h... they would die more but they would also get more kills.
K/h indicates opportunity as an average stat.
lazs
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"I think Rshubert covered it in the maths lesson."
It appears that you didn't read lazs's or my response to the "math lesson" post.
You simple climb out on an angle to achive the same target altitude within the same amount of time. So with this, the JABO/BUFF flyer has not lost or given up anything (except making one turn) and the "furballer" has what they want. It appears to be a win-win situation.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"I think Rshubert covered it in the maths lesson."
It appears that you didn't read lazs's or my response to the "math lesson" post.
You simple climb out on an angle to achive the same target altitude within the same amount of time. So with this, the JABO/BUFF flyer has not lost or given up anything (except making one turn) and the "furballer" has what they want. It appears to be a win-win situation.
Slap - my point still stands. The advice being given to the buffers from the furballers is to fly from one field further back. But to have to do the same thing is abhorrent to the furballers
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Originally posted by lazs2
nobady.. i don't think stats are worthless.. I think they can show trends. If gunnery got harder the trend would be for average hit percentage to go down.. if it got easier the hit percentage would go up.
K/H... you say all a person needs to do is follow the horde a sector and a half and vultch the guys that will obligingly keep poping up on the runway.. that may happen... 1 in ten times... most likely if you are in infinity or pizza tho you will have a long folight to nowhere. if you are in a fast plane you will more than likely lose the vultchs to someone like me who will kill em on the runway before you even start to turn to line up and be lined up for the next plane befor the rest of the building battlers point out there is one.
I think that to get a K/H average (over a tour or two) of over 7 or 10 or so... you have to look for the fight that is close. If the map does not offer the opportunity for furballs then the k/h for everyone will be down... everyone will be fighting for scraps when they are not too busy hiding from the hordes... look at the kill buffer in pizza or infinity... it is painful... mostly chat.
So... let's get some average stats and see if I am right. I mean... you could be right and I could be wrong but .... probly huberts would fly out of our butts before that ever happened. still.... I am open minded about it..
Lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
If you dissagree with me I will get all my friends to beat you up.
Lazs...
The 'worthless' comment was made in response to the juvenile stat pissing contest goin on at the being of the thread. I agree that stats have value as a tool to investigate arena trends. I also find them useful from 'personal' stand point. I stand by my statement that the only really useful stat is F/H. If it takes you 3 minutes to get a kill and me 3 hours...why should either of us care, as long as we are both having fun?
Please, re-read what I wrote. I did not say "follow the horde" to get a high K/H. I did say follow the "lemmings". The horde hits a field together, the lemmings straggle over in a conga line. Actually, the best spot is to be in is the lead of the lemmings. Then you swoop in and get kills while they trash the field. This was true 12 years ago when I tried the point monkey game in AW...it's still true today. Yah, I did the point monkey thing here for about 6 months after I first started and I had fun doing it. However, I find playing for 'points' to be BORING .
Currently, I could care less about 'furballing' at this point in time. My spikey-assed controllers won't allow me to furball. Though, I still sometimes try (not a lot of fun to see your plane flip over and auger 90% of the time when you try and knife fight :( ). My point is just because someone doesn't play the way you play doesn't mean they aren't having fun and the only skill that stats show is that one is good at cranking stats :).
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Originally posted by beet1e
The advice being given to the buffers from the furballers is to fly from one field further back. But to have to do the same thing is abhorrent to the furballers
Ignoring the point that they've said the air distance would be the same in the case of the bombers with closer fields but air distance would be greater in the case of the furballers with field spacing unchanged.
Or is that to complex a concept?
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
The horde hits a field together, the lemmings straggle over in a conga line.
Oh. There's a difference between a horde and lemmings? Good to know.
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Originally posted by Mr. Toad
Ignoring the point that they've said the air distance would be the same in the case of the bombers with closer fields but air distance would be greater in the case of the furballers with field spacing unchanged.
Or is that to complex a concept?
Let's stick to the facts, and leave the goalposts where they are!
Fact 1: The furballers are appalled by fuel porkage because it means they have to take off from one field further back. (Particularly true for some early war planes)
Fact 2: The buffers are appalled by the prospect of fields being moved closer together and/or more and more vehicle fields being converted to airfields, which amounts to the same thing. And the furballers' solution - Take off from one field further back.
I said what I said, and I was very careful in what I said. Refer to the FACTS...
...Or is that too complex a concept? ;):D
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As to the math thing.. we are talking about more fields, not more or less distance.
Take off ----------------------------------- Target
A1.........A2.........A3.....FB.....A4.........A5.........A6
As opposed to now:
A1.................A2..........FB.........A3.................A4
Distance to climb to alt in both cases:
----------------->
As you can see it's the same distance from takeoff to target, same distance to climb to alt and about the same distance to expect any enemy contact.
There IS NO DIFFERENCE for the strat (bombers) but alot of difference (more-quicker-closer) fights for furballers.
Hope that clears it up. ;)
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Nice try, BNM, but that's not what I was getting at.
The problem with the smaller, children's maps is that the fields are so close together that they give rise to opportunist LA7 cherrypickers. Gawd knows I've seen enough of that, and it's one of the reasons I like Trinity and the Pizza map. Now I don't know how effective an LA7 is against a buff, as I fly neither. But even if Mr. Cherrypick chooses a mount other than an LA7, the reality is that he and his buds will be making those 5 minute opportunist runs to whack the buffs while they are at low alt. So that straight line you have drawn won't be applicable. The buffs would have to fly away from the eventual target initially to gain enough alt to meke safe transit of the en route fields prior to reaching the target.
Hope that clears it up. ;)
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Wow you really are dense. Even my 9 year old can understand basic logic...
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Beet1e...
I just noticed your what was at the end of your signature and felt the need to comment...
"Game changes to tweak features, nudge settings and to otherwise influence gameplay as to benefit a certain playing style or group of players, to the detriment of all others = BAD. "
Trinity was 'tweaked' (and possibly the desert should be) to deal with an unrealized detrimental impact that the design had on one segement of game play. It was not done to "benefit a certain playing style or group of players...". It was done to correct an unintended inequity in the design. Generally speaking, what was done should have little or no impact on the other aspects of game play. If anything, strat players will have about 20% more objects to bomb than in the first version.
On another note, the ground pounders will notice that there have been some 'tweaks' to tank town also. This is one of the positives about being able to go back and change things. Now, if this rotating terrain crap will just get straightened out so the the damned terrain will come up....
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Trinity was 'tweaked' (and possibly the desert should be) to deal with an unrealized detrimental impact that the design had on one segement of game play. It was not done to "benefit a certain playing style or group of players..."
Well NB I understand and applaud the changes forthcoming but Beet1e will never understand that.
If he did, he wouldn't have anything to whine about.
Well..
Except for La7's that for some reason continually ruin his day..
Which I don't understand either..
But nobody appointed me "understand Beet1e" so..
I don't really care.
Toodle pip.
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Originally posted by BNM
Wow you really are dense. Even my 9 year old can understand basic logic...
BNM. My post was worded incorrectly. I said that the buffs would originally have to fly away from home base. Of course they do. What I meant was that they would have to fly away from the eventual target. The LA7 cherrypick problem does not only affect buffs - jabos are easy targets too. But on the Pizza map, with fields more widely spaced and many at very high altitude, it's much less of a problem. The typical cherrypicker doesn't have the attention span to mount the sort of attack you might see on the children's maps.
But, BNM, I see you are one of those pitiful individuals who cannot discuss a point without resorting to personal insults, so I am finished talking to you. Besides, I've read your profile and seen what interests you, and as far as I'm concerned you are the last person qualified to be spouting about "logic".
Nobaddy - I just noticed your what was at the end of your signature and felt the need to comment...
I wasn't talking about changes to Trinity. I see Nopoop fell into the trap of assuming what I was talking about, but it was not Trinity. My sig refers to those insidious strat changes that the furballers want - those "temporary" tweaks, alterations or "nudges" on any map, which have only one purpose - to change the pattern of gameplay in their favour. Things like increasing fuel bunker and hangar "hardness", perking bombs, and hardening the radar factory at HQ, decreasing rebuild times and the like. They will cite the fact that a 10% increase in "hardness" is not much, but it might need more planes and/or more trips to complete the mission, and the jabos and buffs will be working against the clock. The end result will be that jabos and buffs simply give up their erstwhile tactics - and that's what the furballers really want. What I really don't like about it is that those changes will get forgotten, and "temporary nudges" become permanent changes.
Nopoop also said If he did, he wouldn't have anything to whine about.
ROFL! Well that's a bit rich coming from him, or from any other furballer, since they are the ones to be advancing all the proposals for "temporary" changes and are the ones that whine the loudest to HTC to have them made. Consider the following scenario: Enemy buffs are threatening your HQ, and if successful will black out your countries radar screen. - My Solution: Take up a buff killer like a P47, fly to the HQ area and defend it by killing the buffs, thereby keeping radar and the map alive.
- Furballers' Solution: Whine to HTC to have the game changed. :rolleyes:
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beet1e squealed:
The problem with the smaller, children's maps is that the fields are so close together that they give rise to opportunist LA7 cherrypickers.
yesss! After 3 pages of chaff the famous la7 death squads make their entrance!
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Originally posted by nopoop
Well NB I understand and applaud the changes forthcoming but Beet1e will never understand that.
If he did, he wouldn't have anything to whine about.
Well..
Except for La7's that for some reason continually ruin his day..
Poops...
Hey, you never know. Perhaps he can be made to see reason. Hell, as far as La7's go...I whine about them myself (but, usually only to myself :D).
Originally posted by beet1e
I wasn't talking about changes to Trinity. I see Nopoop fell into the trap of assuming what I was talking about, but it was not Trinity. My sig refers to those insidious strat changes that the furballers want - those "temporary" tweaks, alterations or "nudges" on any map, which have only one purpose - to change the pattern of gameplay in their favour. Things like increasing fuel bunker and hangar "hardness", perking bombs, and hardening the radar factory at HQ, decreasing rebuild times and the like. They will cite the fact that a 10% increase in "hardness" is not much, but it might need more planes and/or more trips to complete the mission, and the jabos and buffs will be working against the clock. The end result will be that jabos and buffs simply give up their erstwhile tactics - and that's what the furballers really want. What I really don't like about it is that those changes will get forgotten, and "temporary nudges" become permanent changes.
As far as I know, there have been no changes to the game to benefit one specific group over another. Additionally, I am unable to think of any "temporary" changes that have been made. Changes are made when the game system becomes imbalanced. This is normally done after new 'features' are implemented in the game.
I will cite specifics. With the implementation of the base resupply system, I could completely repair an airfield with 1 m3 loaded with supplies as the guys that bombed it flew back over to do a BDA (COD!! I loved doin' that!!! :D). I could do the same with a goon to HQ and repair the damage to radar before the bombers had exited the sector.
Taking your tack on this subject, changes to these things should not have been made. They ONLY benefit the bomber guys.
The ease with which a single player can trash the fuel at a field versus the difficulty multiple players have in repairing it is severely out of balance. It is a situation that should be corrected. Not to benefit a single group of players, but to benefit the entire game.
Bottomline, you appear to be doing the same thing that you accuse the furballers of doing....viewing the problem myopically. One might suggest that you attempt to step back and view the "big picture" with objectivity :).
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Originally posted by beet1e
Nice try, BNM, but that's not what I was getting at.
The problem with the smaller, children's maps is that the fields are so close together that they give rise to opportunist LA7 cherrypickers. Gawd knows I've seen enough of that, and it's one of the reasons I like Trinity and the Pizza map. Now I don't know how effective an LA7 is against a buff, as I fly neither. But even if Mr. Cherrypick chooses a mount other than an LA7, the reality is that he and his buds will be making those 5 minute opportunist runs to whack the buffs while they are at low alt. So that straight line you have drawn won't be applicable. The buffs would have to fly away from the eventual target initially to gain enough alt to meke safe transit of the en route fields prior to reaching the target.
Hope that clears it up. ;)
Any plane that can get alt above bombers are cherry pickers, La-7s don't own the exclusive rights to this distinction.
You don't fly bombers and you don't fly La-7s, yet you feel confident enough to make this statement. I suggest that you spend some time in an La-7 trying to pick off bombers. What you will find is that they are horrible against bombers. Their guns suck, which require you to get in REAL CLOSE, and with the deadlyness of the guns on the bombers, results are usually not good.
Also, to continue the discussion of closer fields and bombers getting jumped. What you might be forgetting is that if there is a furball between two fields, those that are thinking of flying to intercept any of those bombers, and fly thru/around the furball will more than likely die, thus giving the bombers the time to climb to altitude.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
The ease with which a single player can trash the fuel at a field versus the difficulty multiple players have in repairing it is severely out of balance. It is a situation that should be corrected. Not to benefit a single group of players, but to benefit the entire game.
Bottomline, you appear to be doing the same thing that you accuse the furballers of doing....viewing the problem myopically. One might suggest that you attempt to step back and view the "big picture" with objectivity :).
Well that makes perfect sense to me. While us furballers are quite vocal in our comments on "game" issues the main issues we squeak about are valid to the game.
Now Beet1e, give me that wall'o'text on how the fuel porkage issue shouldn't be addressed.
Maybe show a film..
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Hornet! - ...and you're still here reading my thread. :) I am flattered. :D
Slapshot. I did say earlier that the cherrypicker might not necessarily be an LA7, and the target might not necessarily be a buff. I said that jabos would be easy targets too. I see your point that with those closer fields a furball might erupt, and provide cover for a buff to make good his escape, but if you were to play during Euro hours, when there can be as few as 70 people online, you'll see that the situation can be very different.
Nobaddy - As far as I know, there have been no changes to the game to benefit one specific group over another. Additionally, I am unable to think of any "temporary" changes that have been made. Changes are made when the game system becomes imbalanced. This is normally done after new 'features' are implemented in the game.
I've seen what happens when one particular group of players lobbies the game producers to have minor changes applied. It happened in WB. The LW guys would whine and whine, and eventually they got their way and had a 109E that could outturn a Spit 1a - complete, unadulterated BS. I know of an entire squad that left WB on account of that one change. Here's another: One day, you could bomb a target with a 500# bomb, and it would go down. The next day, a 1600# bomb was not enough to destroy the same target - and then we would hear all this crap about "having to hit certain parts" of a target. Lazs dubbed this concept the WB "wheel-o-settings" - lol. The game just became a beta version. And I gave it up.
You're all for balance? Fine, and thanks for your explanation on that, although as I pointed out before, my sig does not relate to the Trinity map in particular. But if we're going to have balance, then I think that with all the furballer bluster about hardening this and that, we need a balanced view which means hearing from other people who do not favour such changes - at least not for the reasons given by those proposing such changes. You're probably right, and maybe there have been no changes applied purely to benefit one particular type of gameplay or group of players. But I want to do my part to see that it never happens.
Still on the subject of arena balance, some people want changes to AH, but I don't think that "arena balance" is their objective at all. If we had a "balanced" arena, then why are the planes that form a steamroller always from the same list? (P51/YAK/Spit/LA7) Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked. We do however hear the call for 100# bombs to be perked. If we really are on a quest to have a balanced arena, then we would have an RPS. Even Apache from Nopoop's squad believes that. The first week of an RPS would be misery for me, heaven for others. But at least we would have balance - with all the planes being used, and not just the usual P51/Yak/La7/Spit subset. But no. People argue that they want to be able to fly what they want when they want. So we have 1945 every day. The early war planes don't stand much of a chance if they venture away from home base, so they stay in the hangar. Is this your vision of a "balanced" arena???
So I stand by my sig. Read it at face value, instead of searching for some nonexistent apocryphal meaning or agenda. I hope that you continue to be right about none of those "temporary" changes being made. But I also hope that the reason is that HTC sees the folly of kow-towing to a particularly vociferous group of players, and not just that they're too busy working on AH2.
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"Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked."
I am an avid La-7 pilot (I don't care what people say), but ending the last tour and the majority of this tour, I have flown the Spit V exclusivly. Trying to get the feel/taste of early war planes.
Well ... I can honestly say that the Spit V is far more dangerous than an La-7 could ever think of being in a furball situation. The La-7s, unless its the likes of Shane, are laughable in a furball. Also, the La-7 barely maintains a 1/1 KD. Here are the top 3 planes that I have killed furballing.
Spitfire Mk IX 35
P-51D 33
La-7 25
I fart in the direction of La-7s and the other so called "uber" planes ... so no ... you will never hear me call for any of those planes to be perked. They are just too easy (as any plane is) unless they are in the hands of an expert.
So please, lets not turn this thread into an La-7 / "uber" plane whine at the same time.
See my sig ... Drex says it all. How to become a better pilot ... die alot, watch the experts, and fly the planes that kill ya the most (at least it has worked for me).
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Originally posted by nopoop
Now Beet1e, give me that wall'o'text on how the fuel porkage issue shouldn't be addressed
Well I got the wall'o'text but never got an answer.
Your usual tack when someone actually has a valid question that "might" not sit with your agenda..
Originally posted by Beet1e
The early war planes don't stand much of a chance if they venture away from home base
I take my chances in early war rides. Just make it so the fuel isn't porked so damn easily so and early bird can fly somewhere and those early birds will be more prevalent. Might become a trend. You prove my point with your very own words. Amazing how that works.
Check my sig. Your quote is actually blowing hot air..but I'll add the other one also.
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Hi Slapshot,
Nice post, and nice name dropping. My stats are not unlike yours, in that the fighters I kill the most are also P51D, Spit ix, LA7. If you look back over my stats, you'll find that those three planes are in the top five fighter types that I have killed, tour after tour after tour after tour. Why is this? Is it because I'm good at killing P51/La7/Spit ix? Well that isn't the point at all. What these stats tell me is that these planes are the most frequently chosen ones, and are therefore what I run into the most. And that tells me that the arena is not balanced, not that I didn't already know. Now a guy like Apache is smart, and sees that this is a bad thing - that's why he feels an RPS would be a good thing. And I agree with him
Nopoop said Well I got the wall'o'text but never got an answer.
LOL - 4 paragraphs. Oh yeah, I forgot - it's your furballer limited attention span kicking in. Now Beet1e, give me that wall'o'text on how the fuel porkage issue shouldn't be addressed
I don't understand your use of the negative in that sentence....
...so what isn't it I should not be telling you about how fuel porkage shouldn't be addressed? :confused:
You want film? I saw this one - an entire movie about fuel porkage - LOL http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88997
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Originally posted by beet1e
Nobaddy - I've seen what happens when one particular group of players lobbies the game producers to have minor changes applied. It happened in WB. The LW guys would whine and whine, and eventually they got their way and had a 109E that could outturn a Spit 1a - complete, unadulterated BS. I know of an entire squad that left WB on account of that one change. Here's another: One day, you could bomb a target with a 500# bomb, and it would go down. The next day, a 1600# bomb was not enough to destroy the same target - and then we would hear all this crap about "having to hit certain parts" of a target. Lazs dubbed this concept the WB "wheel-o-settings" - lol. The game just became a beta version. And I gave it up.
Well, not to split hairs....but, this isn't WB :).
Originally posted by beet1e
You're all for balance? Fine, and thanks for your explanation on that, although as I pointed out before, my sig does not relate to the Trinity map in particular. But if we're going to have balance, then I think that with all the furballer bluster about hardening this and that, we need a balanced view which means hearing from other people who do not favour such changes - at least not for the reasons given by those proposing such changes. You're probably right, and maybe there have been no changes applied purely to benefit one particular type of gameplay or group of players. But I want to do my part to see that it never happens.
Hmm, I am flattered that you seem to be stuck on Trinity :). Nothing in my post was in anyway Trinity specific. Striving to be the protector of the strat view is a laudable goal. Personally, I'm more interested in the entire game and not a single segment of it. But...whatever floats your boat :).
Originally posted by beet1e
Still on the subject of arena balance, some people want changes to AH, but I don't think that "arena balance" is their objective at all. If we had a "balanced" arena, then why are the planes that form a steamroller always from the same list? (P51/YAK/Spit/LA7) Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked. We do however hear the call for 100# bombs to be perked. If we really are on a quest to have a balanced arena, then we would have an RPS. Even Apache from Nopoop's squad believes that. The first week of an RPS would be misery for me, heaven for others. But at least we would have balance - with all the planes being used, and not just the usual P51/Yak/La7/Spit subset. But no. People argue that they want to be able to fly what they want when they want. So we have 1945 every day. The early war planes don't stand much of a chance if they venture away from home base, so they stay in the hangar. Is this your vision of a "balanced" arena???
Oh my...where to start:)! Well, let's start at the easiest point. The "era" based RPS isn't going to happen in the MA. It has nothing to do with balance. It has to do with customer service. The CT is used to do the era based plane stuff. The MA is designed to be a what you want/ when you want it arena. It is not designed to be historical. Here is another clue for yah...this has nothing to do with MY vision of a balanced arena. It is Hitech's vision that counts. I do know that his 'vision' is to create a game that does not favor one segment of the community over another. Thus far, he has done an excellent job of it. In reality, it would seem that the only way to get the kind of balance you are talking about would be to have 1 fighter, 1 bomber and 1 ground vehicle available. Meybe it's me...but, that sounds a little boring :).
Originally posted by beet1e
So I stand by my sig. Read it at face value, instead of searching for some nonexistent apocryphal meaning or agenda. I hope that you continue to be right about none of those "temporary" changes being made. But I also hope that the reason is that HTC sees the folly of kow-towing to a particularly vociferous group of players, and not just that they're too busy working on AH2.
Whoa! Reality check! I never said nor implied an apocryphal meaning or agenda. I merely pointed out that it lacked validity in AH. You gave your experiences in another game as the reason behind it. As I pointed out earlier...this isn't WB. The only way that I see it becoming like WB is if HT decides to leave. If he does ever leave, I will probably be right behind him (just to be the rush to the door :D).
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Originally posted by beet1e
Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked.
If you think the La7 should be perked and somehow unbalances the arena, I suggest you visit the TA a couple of doors down to learn some ACM and tactics.
It never seizes to amaze me how people have the misconception that the La7 is some kind of uber-plane. It also makes me laugh at the hypocrisy of some, you know, the ones that claim that they're in favor of balance with one breath and with the other breath cry...err whine for perking of a certain plane (usually because they don't have the necessary skill to defeat that certain plane) and then in the same hyprocritical breath call for the one supposed salvation that would truly make the arena balanced (at least to the hypocrite) is to put in a system that would limit what plane you could fly and when you could fly it.
You're no different than the 'Furballers' you rail against beet1le.
Ack-Ack
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You never change, get backed into a corner with your own words and you try the smoke and mirrors thing.
You really ought to work on your debating techniques.
Attacking sentence structure is not a viable answer to the the original question.
At what point in a debate are you NOT responsible for what you you say ??
Point - counter point, that's how this debate thing works.
I'll give you a D for ignoring the question and throwing smoke as an answer.
..your in danger of failing the course.
I read quite well by the way, but it needs to keep my interest.
I'm silly that way.
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Nobaddy! Yes I do like your Trinity map. :) Yes, I know this isn't WB, hence you think my concern about a few vociferous furball lobbyists in AH is not applicable. Well, there's a saying that goes something like "when your neighbour's house is on fire, it's time to protect your own".
In reality, it would seem that the only way to get the kind of balance you are talking about would be to have 1 fighter, 1 bomber and 1 ground vehicle available. Meybe it's me...but, that sounds a little boring
LOL! Of course that would be boring, and that's why that is not my vision, and you know it.
Yes, maybe hitech wants the MA to be 1945 every day, but that doesn't mean that he won't perk certain planes if the balance of the arena becomes lopsided. That's why the F4U-1C got perked, although I wasn't around when that happened. The LA7 could be perked for that very same reason - balance....
...which leads me on to AKAK. I didn't say I thought the LA7 was an invincible uberplane. My k/d against LA7s for the past 4-5 tours has been a fairly consistent 5/2. But it is an uberplane in the sense that it's the fastest unperked prop plane in the game. It's also the chosen goon hunter. Why? Because it can get to the field next door in about 5 minutes - less, if the furballers were to have their way with closer fields. err whine for perking of a certain plane (usually because they don't have the necessary skill to defeat that certain plane)
- just as the furballers seem to lack the necessary skills to kill an inbound suicide fuel porker?
Well, now that you've reviewed my stats, I guess you need to concede that I do indeed kill that certain plane - largely because there are so many of them around. Guess I must be one of the unusual cases - LOL. But you're right about the TA - my fighter rank has slipped to 226.
Nopoop, you are tedious... You really ought to work on your debating techniques.
You ought to work on your spelling and grammar. How can I answer a question that doesn't make sense? your in danger of failing the course
My in danger of failing the course? Oh, you meant "you're in danger". OK, but what course? Again, I cannot comment unless your (ooops, you're) going to make sense.
It's almost midnight. Time for one more drink, and then to hit the sack. I shall sleep well tonight. :D
Toodle-Pip. :)
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I'm sorry Beet1e you have failed the course. Yet another reply dodging the original question. Two dodges in the same thread are a mandatory failure. Misdirection is a very poor alternative.
Your D_U_N...dun.
With study you will improve.
Tedious ??
Have you ever actually read one of your wall'o'texts ??
Think "economy".
Your performance has slipped of late. Some time in the debating TA should be your first priority.
Sleep well, and give Tomato my best.
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Originally posted by beet1e
But it is an uberplane in the sense that it's the fastest unperked prop plane in the game. It's also the chosen goon hunter. Why? Because it can get to the field next door in about 5 minutes - less, if the furballers were to have their way with closer fields. - just as the furballers seem to lack the necessary skills to kill an inbound suicide fuel porker?
Again, those reason above you mention are hardly any reasons to perk the La7 or to consider it even remotely 'uber'. Like I said, tactics will get your further than trying to perk a plane out of action. Ever thought about providing escort for the goon or a fighter sweep in advance of the goon? Tactics, tactics, tactics...
Well, now that you've reviewed my stats
If I don't give a rat's bellybutton about my stats, what makes you think I care to take the time to care about yours?
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by beet1e
Nobaddy! Yes I do like your Trinity map. :) Yes, I know this isn't WB, hence you think my concern about a few vociferous furball lobbyists in AH is not applicable. Well, there's a saying that goes something like "when your neighbour's house is on fire, it's time to protect your own". LOL! Of course that would be boring, and that's why that is not my vision, and you know it.
Yes, maybe hitech wants the MA to be 1945 every day, but that doesn't mean that he won't perk certain planes if the balance of the arena becomes lopsided. That's why the F4U-1C got perked, although I wasn't around when that happened. The LA7 could be perked for that very same reason - balance....
Well...I hope you slept well :). I am glad you like Trinity. Hopefully, once you have had a chance to see the changes I have made, you will agree that they are good for the game. I spoke with HT this morning and he plans to have it ready for the next map rotation (I will probably call him again in a couple of days to 'remind' him :D).
As for burning down the house...I have known the fireman for many years. I am supremely confident in his ability to keep our house from burning. Case in point, over the last couple of years the vast majority of complaints have been from the black leather underwear crowd. If they had their way, the German planes would out run, out turn and out climb everything in the game. Allied planes would blow up at a mere glance. (exaggeration is for effect...no hate mail please :D). Seriously, if what you are worried about was really a problem, HT would have caved in to the LW crowd ages ago. Frankly, I am constantly amazed at his ability to 'see' the balance issues in a proposed change instantly. Don't even bother asking how many of my ideas he has shot down over the years :).
I was here when the Chog was perked. It was perked because the usage shot up wildly. After a couple of camps, HT looked at the numbers and agreed that it was becoming way too dominant in the arena. The same can not be said of the La7. HT doesn't want the arena to be "1945 everyday". It is a melee arena. If a does become more dominant than he feels it should be, he will probably perk it. I do know from experience that he is a very hard sell on changes like this.
Welp...time to go watch the Animatrix with my kid. Have a nice day :).
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"- just as the furballers seem to lack the necessary skills to kill an inbound suicide fuel porker?"
Please tell me what segment of the AH population really has the skills to kill inbound suicide fuel porkers ? Is it the "strat" segment ? ... I think not.
If anybody does have the ability and/or chance to, it will be the furballers who will catch them (prior to them putting their noses down), but in reality ... no "faction" within the AH population really has the abilities to stop any JABO dropping from 10K-15K down onto a base.
Name dropping ... please ... I hardly need the personal approval of Shane or any pilot in this game. I was just giving credit where credit is due. Drex ... I have heard he's a putz ... but his quote speaks volumes.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Nice try, BNM, but that's not what I was getting at.
The problem with the smaller, children's maps is that the fields are so close together that they give rise to opportunist LA7 cherrypickers. Gawd knows I've seen enough of that, and it's one of the reasons I like Trinity and the Pizza map. Now I don't know how effective an LA7 is against a buff, as I fly neither. But even if Mr. Cherrypick chooses a mount other than an LA7, the reality is that he and his buds will be making those 5 minute opportunist runs to whack the buffs while they are at low alt. So that straight line you have drawn won't be applicable. The buffs would have to fly away from the eventual target initially to gain enough alt to meke safe transit of the en route fields prior to reaching the target.
Hope that clears it up. ;)
Wrong. Nothing you have stated here makes any sense. It is your usual jibberish. All I can glean from it is, apparently, you have no idea how to fight a La7. If you LOOK at what I 'drew' the distance to the "front line" where you would encounter 'the dreaded La7' is the SAME DISTANCE in both cases. The climb to alt is the SAME DISTANCE in both cases. The distance to the final target is the SAME DISTANCE in both cases. The ONLY difference is that furballers do not have to fly as far to fight.
Rest assured this is my final post to you. You are like talking to a fence post. Trying to explain anything to you is throwing pearls before swine. Also your son rupert is even more rude and condesending than you. That is saying something although you two are on about the same wavelength. A chip off the old block I'd say. I've never used the ignore list thing until now but you and your buddy are on it. Adios dweeb and enjoy your life in beetleland where beetle logic reigns supreme...
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Originally posted by BNM
You are like talking to a fence post
Yes he is. But..
Beet1e is nowhere in the same class as rshubert. Beet's done his time, paid his dues, he's a stick. If a fence post it is ?? That's what comes with the package. If when it's unwrapped it's a hunk of dried out wood with nails in it ?? So be it.
We must transform this hunk of dried out wood into a finely veneered maple coffee table. And I shall not rest until we do.
Rshubert is just a newbie, he'll either quit or pay his dues. A different rshubert may be found in a year or so..
If he hangs..
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I hear ya poop. That's why I said rup was MORE rude and condesending. You are correct in the fact that he has been here longer. I must say it is cool scanning threads now and seeing "This person in on your ignore list" in place of the usual 200 lines of drivel. :D Wish I had used this earlier.
PS... I'll bet you a month of AH you never make civil human beings with open minds out of either one of them.
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What we'll do is move Beet1e to the God fearing pistol packing U ess of A and give him a REAL good dose of 500 "primetime" gangbangin suiciding fuel porkin groupies for a solid week and he's a lock. Bezerkly would be a good spot for the stay.
Rshubert ??
Will check in on him in a year.
If he's around I owe you one VERY cold cheap beer in a can.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Rshubert ??
Will check in on him in a year.
If he's around I owe you one VERY cold cheap beer in a can.
Don't worry about me, nopoop. I will still be doing what I want to in this game. It will probably be a balanced approach to the whole thing, unlike many who concentrate only on one aspect.
I've been sitting back watching the snippy, squeaky little comments, and realized that one word covers it all--small.
I really dislike your whole "pay your dues" attitude. Do you somehow get the idea that we have a seniority system here? Does a couple of years in the furball make you wiser, smarter, or better able to judge what others should do? Were you this whiney when you came into the game, or is that the sum total of what you have gained from the experience? I hope not.
AND, I'll still think that your buddy lassie is a jerk.
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Phew, lots of replies... Nobaddy - thanks for yours. I am comforted by what you said. Let's hope we never have those subtle changes/"nudges" of the sort that ruined WB - or were at least a major factor in said ruination. It's a very sensitive area for me, so when people start talking about tweaking this, hardening that, I hear those fire alarm bells.
AKAK - Ever thought about providing escort for the goon or a fighter sweep in advance of the goon? Tactics, tactics, tactics...
Of course, and often it is something like that. But just as said fighter sweep would have to guard against a goon hunter diving in to the base to protect the goon, so could the furballers defend against a fuel porker. Their k/t or k/h might have to suffer, which is probably why they don't do it.
Slapshot - give some thought to the above... Tactics, Tactics, Tactics! -as AKAK would put it. :D
What a relief to see that I'm on BNM's ignore list. I had finished with him before he finished with me, as he can't get by without hurling a personal insult when someone does not agree with him and when that person refuses to be indoctrinated. I could say "thank God he's gone", if I believed there was a god to thank. When I read this: "Rest assured this is my final post to you. You are like talking to a fence post. Trying to explain anything to you is throwing pearls before swine.", I thought Oh no! Another preacher lecture, replete with biblical reference. :( Took me right back to the days when I had to listen to all that claptrap. Says things like "you have no idea how to fight a La7", conveniently overlooking the facts/stats. That's because his kind are interested only in THEIR way, THEIR version of the facts - which they try to ramrod into others, and then get insulting when that doesn't work. Reminds me of another preacher I used to know...
Nopoop! Thank you for your kind words. Which of your off topic questions do you want answered first? Fuel porkage? Well AKAK came up with a good idea for defending a goon - maybe you can work out something similar for defending the fuel! Just as I worked out a strategy for defending HQ. Of course, you might have to climb to higher than 5K - lol. Your k/h might suffer a bit. But war involves sacrifice. Oh wait, you're not concerned with "the war", the event that spawned this game. Never mind. Back to whine mode for you then. ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
AKAK - Of course, and often it is something like that. But just as said fighter sweep would have to guard against a goon hunter diving in to the base to protect the goon, so could the furballers defend against a fuel porker. Their k/t or k/h might have to suffer, which is probably why they don't do it.
Whether or not a furballer has the necessary skills to defend his base or whether their score/rank suffers from escorting a goon is not relevant. It has nothing to do with your claim that the La7 is an unbalancing factor in the MA, so don't try to bring up things that aren't relevent to the discussion at hand.
So you agree that with good tactics the La7 is hardly an 'unbalancing' factor in the arena and is quite beatable, then why do you want it perked?
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
so don't try to bring up things that aren't relevent to the discussion at hand.
Ahem, this is MY thread, and the topic title refers to k/t stats. My text which you quoted above is on topic. Your discussion about LA7 is off topic. But now that you're here...
... as for the LA7, I don't see it as an uber-invincible monster, but more of a nuisance, just as the furballers perceive an F6F fuel porker to be a nuisance. They want planes with 100# bombs to be perked because they are a nuisance. By the same token, the LA7 is frequently used as an opportunist goon killing nuisance. If perking planes with bombs, why not perk the LA7? Just trying to keep the "balance".
Planes like the F4U-1C have been perked when the arena was becoming overrun with them. But as I said before, in my kill list the P51D/Spit ix/LA7 are in the top five tour after tour because the arena is overrun with them. Which kind of smacks of imbalance, probably because I never fly any of them, though used to fly P51D and Spit ix.
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"Slapshot - give some thought to the above... Tactics, Tactics, Tactics! -as AKAK would put it. "
Come on beet1e ... you know as well as I do, if your have a mixture of typhoons, P51s, and F4Us at 10-15K and they put their nose down to target, there is no catching them for the most part, on the first pass. That was my point.
The furball usually takes place from 8K to 0K AGL, anything above that would be for the "high base cap" crowd, which for the most part is non-existent, due to the extreme bore factor.
"... as for the LA7, I don't see it as an uber-invincible monster, but more of a nuisance, just as the furballers perceive an F6F fuel porker to be a nuisance. They want planes with 100# bombs to be perked because they are a nuisance. By the same token, the LA7 is frequently used as an opportunist goon killing nuisance. If perking planes with bombs, why not perk the LA7? Just trying to keep the "balance".
The F6F was just given as an example, it was not intended as a whine towards the F6F. Any JABO plane could have been used in that example.
The "perk the bomb" cause has all but disappered and never really gained any momentum, nor has/had as large a following as the "closer fields are better" crowd.
"Planes like the F4U-1C have been perked when the arena was becoming overrun with them. But as I said before, in my kill list the P51D/Spit ix/LA7 are in the top five tour after tour because the arena is overrun with them. Which kind of smacks of imbalance, probably because I never fly any of them, though used to fly P51D and Spit ix."
Spitfire Mk IX - 1.12 K/D
La-7 - 1.22 K/D
P-51D - 0.89 K/D
N1K2 - 1.23 K/D
Average K/D = 1.11 K/D
Those numbers due not show any imbalance at all on the MA that would require the perking of any of those planes. Yes, there are lots of 'em, but sheer numbers do not imply imbalance of gameplay, only imbalance with regards to early war usage vs. late war usage.
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Why the Chog is perked, with a kill ratio of 2.6, and the Tempest is perked with a kill ratio of over 4.
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hehe, Slapshot. OK, I can tell you are a reasonable guy. :)
To be honest, I don't care if they perk the LA7 or not any more. I just feel that arena balance is important. So if we're to have guys whine about suicide fuel porker, and clamour for gameplay changes to favour furballers, so must we have whines about the LA7 opportunist goon killer, and point out where the strat players' lot could be improved. The two whine types cancel eachother out, so hopefully HTC will strike the right balance, and change nothing! :)
I was thinking about what you said (was it you?) who quoted Drex's sig - about not limiting the planes. I actually believe that by NOT having an RPS, we limit the planes. People won't want to fly the early planes with an arena full of P51/LA7/YAK etc. I've got no axe to grind there either. I didn't like early war - preferred midwar.
As for SFP, AKCurly's thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89194) contains some interesting ideas.
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Honest question:
If the LA-7, Spit, Niki and Pony are not "uber" (and I'm not saying they are) why do these 4 planes account for 24.54% of the Kills in the MA and 22.4% of the deaths?
I can see the spit being popular. Well known history, cannon armament, good turn radius.
I can see the pony, as it has a fan base.
So if the Niki and the LA are not anything special, why do they account for so much arena usage? They even have the same K/D ratio at 1.22.
Personally, the only plane I truly fear is the one with a skilled pilot in it.
But I am really curious why these 4 planes get so much play.
I would not mind seeing these guys perked if it meant a more diverse arena. I, like many am tired of fighting the same 4 planes over and over.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I would not mind seeing these guys perked if it meant a more diverse arena. I, like many am tired of fighting the same 4 planes over and over.
My thoughts exactly.
I don't see why the Jug can't be more popular. Well I did, until tonight. The Jug has a history of combat that can't be modelled on the small maps. In RL, the P47 guys flew at high alts, and caught many of their quarries off guard. In AH (small maps) by the time you've climbed your Jug to 8K, you will be surrounded by high alt LA7/109/P51 etc. So the P47 is a bad choice in this *game* on the small maps...
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If the LA-7, Spit, Niki and Pony are not "uber" (and I'm not saying they are) why do these 4 planes account for 24.54% of the Kills in the MA and 22.4% of the deaths?
Because the are the most used/chosen planes in the MA.
So if the Niki and the LA are not anything special, why do they account for so much arena usage? They even have the same K/D ratio at 1.22.
N1K ...
900 rounds of cannon ammo.
Dives well.
Decent acceleration.
Decent climber.
Good turner.
La-7 ...
450 rounds of cannon ammo. (These guns suck)
Dives great.
Great acceleration.
Good turner.
Both are very good planes. I would say that the N1K would be the easier of the 2 to fly in.
Personally, the only plane I truly fear is the one with a skilled pilot in it.
And that is the way it should be. When I see a plane and recognize it, I immediately start to formulate a plan as to exploit its weaknesses (that I know of) and fly to my planes strengths. If everytime I saw one of these 4 and let the sheer emotion of seeing one of the "top four" effect my strategy, I have already lost the fight.
But I am really curious why these 4 planes get so much play.
Survivability (percieved)
I would not mind seeing these guys perked if it meant a more diverse arena.
Keep that up Muck and I will then jump on the bandwagon to perk your bombs ... :D
Muck ...
The problem that I see in perking the "top four" is that they will be replaced with the next "top four" which in my opinion will be the LuftWaffe plane set. I already see alot of 109s and 190s, so neuter the top four and that is all you will see.
Then the "whine" to neuter those, and then a new "top four" will emerge. All planes are not equal and will never be equal, so trying to eliminate or restrict planes thinking that you will achieve the "magical" plane balance is nothing but a cyclic pipe dream IMHO.
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"hehe, Slapshot. OK, I can tell you are a reasonable guy."
Thanks ... I try to be.
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Slappy-
I have NO problem perking bombs, pal.
Thin out the herd if the bombers so only those that know what they are doing are left standing.
Same reason I applaud the new bomb system when it came out. Thin out the herd until only the dedicated bomber pilots are left.
Maybe finding a diverse, balanced arena is a pipe dream, but it's still a nice dream.
Hell, AH2 is right around the corner...hopefully. I'm very interested in earning the prime rides instead of just clicking on them.
*shrugs*
I guess I'm a hypocrit though. My ride of choice is the F6F.
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"As for SFP, AKCurly's thread contains some interesting ideas.
Not a bad idea. I think the 5 inch guns would be more applicable to those bases that are on the coast. That would eliminate CV groups parking right off shore and unleashing an endless stream of planes. They would have to back off more inorder for those flights to achieve some alt to make the job of the 5 inchers more difficult, which in turn would allow some inkling of a defense to be mounted.
I am a supporter in adding many more MANNABLE ack at fields to achive the same effect.
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Thin out the herd if the bombers so only those that know what they are doing are left standing.
Same reason I applaud the new bomb system when it came out. Thin out the herd until only the dedicated bomber pilots are left.
Cull that herd out any more, and you will become extinct.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Thin out the herd if the bombers so only those that know what they are doing are left standing.
Same reason I applaud the new bomb system when it came out. Thin out the herd until only the dedicated bomber pilots are left.
Cull that herd out any more, and you will become extinct.
Muckmaw....the last dinosaur.
Well, at least I'd be #1 in bomber rank every month.
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slapshot!
I am a supporter in adding many more MANNABLE ack at fields to achive the same effect.
Indeed. Me too.
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Originally posted by lazs2
that is the point... the new maps and new players and "missuns" have seperated the two camps. They are at odds with each other and they get in each others way instead of being symbiotic.
moving the fields closer is the only way I can see to get the two camps to coexist in the arena again.
I welcome anyone elses ideas on how to get the two camps to coexist... despite what tough guy thinks my "agenda" is choice. if lack of choice is your agenda thenm we will be at odds.... otherwise.. we need to work together to make an arena that everyone can enjoy. one that is fair for both camps.
lazs [/B]
Simple fix Laz, Put the two "Peices of Work " Pizza, and Trinity " on their on server and run the rest of the maps the old way . Their was none of these problems before those two maps !
My 2 cents
CHKERS
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Honest question:
If the LA-7, Spit, Niki and Pony are not "uber" (and I'm not saying they are) why do these 4 planes account for 24.54% of the Kills in the MA and 22.4% of the deaths?
Because of numbers. If you get five guys flying La7s and one guy flying a P-38 and you look at their averages, the group flying the La7 will have a larger kill average than the solo guy in the P-38 because of their numbers. The same would be true of any plane, not just those you mentioned. You can reverse it and put five guys in a P-38 and one guy in a La7 and get the same results. The reason why those planes account for a large share of the kills in the MA has nothing to do with the planes being 'uber' or other such nonsense but rather the numbers that fly them account for the kill %
Ack-Ack
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Ya know... I'm starting to like ol NB.. we don't agree much but he has a tendency toward fairness and honesty that is nice to see.
beetle... I swear... I don't have any idea of what you want or why you oppose what others want. I read (skimmed) everything you wrote and it just seems like you are not even on the same page as the rest of the group here.. You get bogged down in dtail... which is ok but.. the things you get bogged down in are either a lame defense after getting caught saying something dumb or tearing apart something that someone else didn't say.
it's all so confusing.
lazs
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Jeeeezus!
Never try to link an image from http://www.somethingawful.com!
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Originally posted by rshubert
I really dislike your whole "pay your dues" attitude
I don't care what you think rshubert.
Besides bustin Beet1e's eggs, if you'll reread what I posted on this thread you'd be surprised to learn that it is a discussion in which I'm taking part in. Although the opposition has dropped the ball in constructive comments.
I might add that I met Beet1e at a WB convention in NC in 2000. Fought him from 1998 on in WB. After he broke my nose and I dislocated his knee at the convention we've been on fine terms.
Though he hasn't a clue...
..and his knee got better.
Having Manable ack would be a great experiment. Have not seen it in a game so far. Have a base under attack, if you feel the need, lock and load. If the ack goes down, it's down similar to CV group gun positions.
Might be fun.
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Good Morning!
I'm pleased to see a new mood of cordiality in this thread, now that Preacher-Boy is gone. I got shot of the G-squad c1970, and never looked back. But every now and then, someone pops up with that self righteous attitude, and insults people simply for disagreeing, or holding an opposing point of view. You guys in America are lucky. You have the first Amendment - which means you can choose any - or none at all. I'm a lifelong none-at-all guy myself, and try to let others do as they please with regard to that. But whenever I hear that "you're stupid because you don't agree with me" BS, it takes me right back to the shackle and chains days before 1970, and generally ***ks up my day. Yuck... Sorry to digress, but I needed to get that off my chest.
AKAK - The reason why those planes account for a large share of the kills in the MA has nothing to do with the planes being 'uber' or other such nonsense but rather the numbers that fly them account for the kill %
Yes, the LA7s are numerous, but WHY are they numerous? Because of the reasons Slapshot listed above. And as my 109 mentor Urchin said in an earlier thread, (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82141&perpage=50&highlight=gondolas%20and%20scientific%20and%20G10%20and%20weaknesses&pagenumber=2) an average LA7 pilot will beat a good 109G10 pilot 7 times out of 10. [my italics] I believe that one of the reasons that it IS the choice of so many is that it's easy to fly, and provides good survivability. We have to face up to the fact that many people in AH have no interest in WW2 and want nothing more than aerial Quake. For them, the LA7 is the perfect choice.
Lazs! I didn't know you were still here - glad you are. What do I want? In a word, Balance. Many of us reading this come from WB, and well remember the wheel-o-settings. It got so bad that you never knew from one day to the next how your plane would fly, or how lethal (or not) the guns would be. Then just recently, another former WBer started a thread about tinkering with "bullet radius" - remember that old chestnut? I don't want AH to be like that, with settings changing daily, or aircraft performance to be modified upon the whims of a handful of players. Fuel porkers are a nuisance I know. But so are LA7 opportunists. Perking either one out of existence is not the answer. Anyway, Nobaddy has set my mind at rest. He has known the fireman for many years, and I accept his assurances that the fireman has protected our own house against fire, despite the blazing inferno we left behind next door.
Nopoop! I might add that I met Beet1e at a WB convention in NC in 2000. Fought him from 1998 on in WB. After he broke my nose and I dislocated his knee at the convention we've been on fine terms.
You have it backwards! I stood on tiptoe and bit your knee, so then you kneed me in the face using the other knee and broke my nose. Even though I'm 6ft in height, I'd need a stepladder to reach your nose - lol. :)
Yes, we met in the coffee shop as I recall. Did you meet Gabreski, and go to his address in that lecture theatre? I'd never heard of him before that con, but liked him instantly, and bought his book for $65. He was a tough old bird - a real no nonsense character.
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Originally posted by nopoop
I don't care what you think rshubert.
Having Manable ack would be a great experiment. Have not seen it in a game so far. Have a base under attack, if you feel the need, lock and load. If the ack goes down, it's down similar to CV group gun positions.
Might be fun.
That's the spirit, nopoop. Let's drag the whole discussion further down into the dirt. That'll show me.
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Well surprise me then rshubert. What are your feelings on manable ack positions at a field.
The pros and cons. It just might be fun. Field start flashing and jump in a gun. Just another choice added to the pot.
Not my cup of tea but I could see how it would be fun with a steamroller headed in.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Well surprise me then rshubert. What are your feelings on manable ack positions at a field.
I'm not Shubie-doobie-do, but here's my dos centavos on the subject.
Why not have the field defenses like they had in WB? I remember from when I played WB (2.x-2.77) that there were multiple and different caliber AA at each field. Why not do something like that in addition to adding a little more mannable acks? Also add mannable acks to the towns in addtion to the three that are already there.
Flying in supplies should also have more of an effect on repairing the base instead of just decreasing the respawn time by a few minutes. Have something like 5 supply drops will bring the base fully back online.
Ack-Ack
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The reason I find K/T useless is because it is biased towards the fast fighters and the fighters that climb very well. If you happen to like an aircraft that isn't quite so stellar in those deparments and isn't suited to last ditch base defense your K/T will never be very good. Because of that you cannot accurately gauge the flying style of others simply by looking at their K/T. You also have to look at what they fly.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The reason I find K/T useless is because it is biased towards the fast fighters and the fighters that climb very well. If you happen to like an aircraft that isn't quite so stellar in those deparments and isn't suited to last ditch base defense your K/T will never be very good. Because of that you cannot accurately gauge the flying style of others simply by looking at their K/T. You also have to look at what they fly.
True.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Did you meet Gabreski, and go to his address in that lecture theatre?
I enjoyed his talk a great deal. But this man had been given accolades for his achievements during and since the war.
What I found more moving was the sparkle in Franz Stiglr's eyes with the real interest that was givin to his story, his life. A man for 40 years, just the enemy with no recognition of his accomplishments.
One of the few 262 pilots, 109 pilot, flew with the best. If I remember correctly he was shot down over 20 times. His stories and the reaction of those listening made me feel good.
His story, along with the B17 pilot in attendence of when he showed the way home to the shot up 17 and wagged his wings to send him on his way I will never forget. It was a privilage to shake that mans hand.
All were Knights, and late in life he was being recognized for what he "was".
A Knight.
Have a signed lith of his 109 on the wall with the story of the B17.
I won't forget it.
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen'
( Retired )
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BNM.. I don't know.. my highest k/h tours are in an FM2.. I don't take off if there is no fight... if I have to fly much more than a sector to find a good fight... I can get three or more kills while the pee51 or dee 9 is lining up for his "perfect" risk free bounce that he has climbed to 15 k for. I can ruin his day by reversing him and making him extend half a sector.
lazs
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lazs,
Your choice of aircraft falls into the "good at base defense" category. You can get up and be getting kills immediately if you take off from a base that is under attack or near a fight.
If I take off of the same base at the same time in my chosen aircraft I'll just get killed.
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karnak... no... I don't take off from bases that are capped much. The ones I take of from any plane can take off from.
No.. it is attitude. I don't bother to "work my way up" to those timid guys in their high alt foxholes. no point.. it takes forever and they are lousy fighter pilots when you do get to em. They die easy but it takes forever to kill em. It wouldn't matter what plane I used but I could kill those guys a lot faster in say an la7 or yak... sometimes, when there is no other type of fight I will take the yak and do that.
My point was... I look for close fields with a huge fight going on or CV fights... theirs or ours, it doesn't matter.
Act timid in the arena or have an arena that encourages (demands) timidity and you will have a low overall average k/h... have an arena with opportunity for good large fights and you will have a higher k/h.
lazs
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Whew....made it through all four pages!
I would just like to say that if some of you could fight as well as you type, well, Beetle would be the best online virtual dude ever to hit the planet.
Just play the way ya want to...however, if ya run from fights like a girlscout, then don't be suprised when folks call ya out on it.
Regarding K/T, it does indicate how busy one is fighting rather than sightseeing...not that anything is wrong with sightseeing, it just is boring to those of us who have seen the sights for some 10-12 years.
Make any sense?
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Lazs2!!!
I have discovered the joy of the FM2! Heheh this plane is a blast to fly.
Had a 10 kill, then 7 kill run in FM2 last night, back to back.(no re-arms)
Loads of fun. It can take a pounding, guns are effective if not spectacular, turns like a champ, .. blah blah blah.
Good humor.
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never got a 10 kill and 7 kill sorties are rare for me. love to run into you in the arena... most of the fm2 guys i run into are not very good...
you are obviously the best Fm2 guy in the game if you can even maintain half of your kill per sortie flying in it. Don't know how you manage to fight at all tho... much time as you spend on channel one.
lazs
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whenever I see Fm2's or spits or hurris I know that I will at least get a fight....
they don't have any choice.
lazs
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I have a lovely bunch of coconuts
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Hmmm, well the ch1 dig was unexpected but...whatever. I must be doing at least some fighting, my K/T is at least average in
fighters (9 per hour), better in attack. (11 per hour)
Anyway, I should have left out the comment about kills in the last two sorties, it sounds like bragging. Really, I was just excited to see that someone else enjoys flying the FM2. Fast and furious action, and a smile on my face the whole time... I really have fun in it. I dunno about being any good in it, you'd surely spank me. My point was that I have found another way to have a great time in the game, and that it's a nice change of pace from the mustang. Like I said, the FM2 is a lot of fun, wish I'd tried it sooner.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Honest question: If the LA-7, Spit, Niki and Pony are not "uber"
Is not obvious they all are uber? Cmon ignorant dweebs, come here and tell me they are not.
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lazs,
You are flying relatively manuevable aircraft, particularly the FM2.
Try fighting in a Bf110G-2, P-38L or Mosquito Mk VI from a lower altitude than your opponent. Heavy fighters are hard to survive in from that position.
As I fly the Mosquito more than any other aircraft I have to spend time climbing, and it doesn't climb very well, therefore my K/T will never be very good, even though I am pretty agressive once it comes time to fight.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Is not obvious they all are uber? Cmon ignorant dweebs, come here and tell me they are not.
They are only uber to those that don't have the necessary skills or knowledge to fight them.
Ack-Ack
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MANDOBLE,
I find the N1K2 and Spitfire Mk IX to be relatively easy kills and I fly a big assed heavy fighter. They are clearly not "uber".
The La-7 and P-51D on the other hand are much closer to "uber".
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These planes are uber, not the pilots inside. I find all of them as easy targets, but is because the pilots, not the plane.
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D9 is just as uber as any plane you listed... faster than pony, out climbs it, better guns.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
These planes are uber, not the pilots inside. I find all of them as easy targets, but is because the pilots, not the plane.
Then if you find them to be so easy, then how can they be uber?
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Then if you find them to be so easy, then how can they be uber?
Careful, AKAK, you're falling into MANDOBLE's wonderful world of self-promotion. See, if the planes themselves are uber but their pilots possess vastly inferior abilities compared to MANDOBLE, then what does that tell us about MANDOBLE?
Why, he must be the most incredible pilot out there, of course! He flies a non-uber plane and kills uber planes only because he's better than everybody who flies those planes. Just wish you were him and move on.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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MANDOBLE,
No. They're easy kills because they're slow and the only way they can get me is if I screw up. It takes a good pilot in one of them to get me without me screwing up majorly.
Slow = easy kill.
I'm sorry that you can't see that, but it is the truth.
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Originally posted by Rude
Whew....made it through all four pages!
I would just like to say that if some of you could fight as well as you type, well, Beetle would be the best online virtual dude ever to hit the planet.
Just play the way ya want to...however, if ya run from fights like a girlscout, then don't be suprised when folks call ya out on it.
Regarding K/T, it does indicate how busy one is fighting rather than sightseeing...not that anything is wrong with sightseeing, it just is boring to those of us who have seen the sights for some 10-12 years.
Make any sense?
Rude - thank you for your kind words. :)
You have a point with k/t - it's an indicator of how busy you are, and not how good you are. And the number of players in the MA varies widely in the course of 24 hours, with further variance at weekends. The map in use will also play a part.
If I wanted "action", and measured my prowess on the hallowed k/t, I'd place great value on sorties like the 9 kill job I got in US prime time a few weeks ago. But I honestly tire of this crap. Sure, I got 7 kills and RTB to the carrier - which some bastage sank! So back to the field which I was led to believe would be ours very soon. Erm, no... got 2 more kills and then got whacked by another F4U I didn't see till too late.
Film here - 2.52MB, 20 mins play time (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/f4u1cfurball.zip)
I much preferred the P47 sortie I flew on the pizza map, when there were only 61 people online. (Film in Manedew's pizza whine thread) OK, only 4 kills in about 14 minutes, but a chance to use the P47 at high alt/high speed - closer to RL than that F4U furball.
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Geez Beet1e, Nuke is right. Just about all your posts have some self promoting reference in them. You got this many kills, and were magnificent, you got that many kills and were magnificent. You even post the films...lol. You are attention deprived, aren't you?
With all the chest pounding you do, one would think you're some kind of killing machine. I ran into your 109 the other day and put you away in seconds.... gave you an and got no reply. Come back down to earth Beet1e like I sent you to earth in the virtual world.. for some of us, 7-10 kill missions are a daily occurance.
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yeah! 7-10 a daily occurance!!! now if i only landed more of those to get the so depserately needed backslapping i desire from you all ...
without that how can i validate my meager existence?
:p
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Shane, you're going to have to post some films bro. Just remember though, your films are probably going to have several sequences where you've either turned the tables or forced your opponent into a fatal mistake. I know this because I've seen you do it, and you've done it to me, lol. So, with that in mind, do you really want to embarrass all those nice people? And ummm.. you didn't film that one where ya got me over the water after I erred did ya?(quite a while ago but memorable..it was pretty)
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Originally posted by Karnak
MANDOBLE,
No. They're easy kills because they're slow
Really? Are the La7 and P51 slow planes? BTW, what means slow for you? slow diving? slow climbing? slow leveled? slow low? slow high? slow after turning 360 dgrees? slow with WEP? slow without WEP? Do you mean that their TOP speeds are "slow" at sea level? Do you know how many seconds (mins) do they need to reach their top speeds from a predefined "slow" start speed and fuel load?
RAW top speed is usefull only to reach a destination faster, flying straight and level. Acceleration, climb rate, controls authority, weapons and E retention is what make a fighter uber.
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Mandoble, seriously dude.. are you for real about planes being uber? I flew the la7 a few times and it is the closest thing to being uber...but it has traits that can readily be exploited by its opponents. I have to think you are kidding.... I mean really... uber planes? There just aren't any.
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Originally posted by Steve
There just aren't any.
Of course F15 is more uber. What I mean is that they are uber compared to most of the non perked fighters. BTW, IMO, Yak9U is uber compared to La7.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Really? Are the La7 and P51 slow planes? BTW, what means slow for you? slow diving? slow climbing? slow leveled? slow low? slow high? slow after turning 360 dgrees? slow with WEP? slow without WEP? Do you mean that their TOP speeds are "slow" at sea level? Do you know how many seconds (mins) do they need to reach their top speeds from a predefined "slow" start speed and fuel load?
RAW top speed is usefull only to reach a destination faster, flying straight and level. Acceleration, climb rate, controls authority, weapons and E retention is what make a fighter uber.
Still whinin after all this time?
You might consider just gettin better and lettin your flying speak for you rather than typing so much fiction....talks cheap ya know?
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Originally posted by Steve
Mandoble, seriously dude.. are you for real about planes being uber? I flew the la7 a few times and it is the closest thing to being uber...but it has traits that can readily be exploited by its opponents. I have to think you are kidding.... I mean really... uber planes? There just aren't any.
You're wrong Steve....the uber planes are the ones being flown by the uber pilots....Levi, WT, Shane, Urchin, Drex and a dozen others.
Mandoble just hates not being revered as an uber kinda guy and has always vented that frustration in one form or another.
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Originally posted by Rude
Mandoble just hates not being revered as an uber kinda guy and has always vented that frustration in one form or another.
LOL OMG, this one is really worth a psichological study.
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BTW, IMO, Yak9U is uber compared to La7
This from a D9 driver. Seen the monthly a/c kill stats lately Mandoble?
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MANDOBLE,
I figured you could follow a few posts of reasoning, but apparently it was too much for you.
Here you go, in order:
Originally posted by Karnak:
MANDOBLE,
I find the N1K2 and Spitfire Mk IX to be relatively easy kills and I fly a big assed heavy fighter. They are clearly not "uber".
The La-7 and P-51D on the other hand are much closer to "uber".
Then your response:
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
These planes are uber, not the pilots inside. I find all of them as easy targets, but is because the pilots, not the plane.
And my reply:
Originally posted by Karnak:
MANDOBLE,
No. They're easy kills because they're slow and the only way they can get me is if I screw up. It takes a good pilot in one of them to get me without me screwing up majorly.
Slow = easy kill.
I'm sorry that you can't see that, but it is the truth.
Thus it should have been clear that I was saying the Spitfire Mk IX and N1K2-J were easy kills because they are slow. I will quite admit that I have problems with P-51Ds and La-7s. That is why I said that they are closer to "uber".
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Originally posted by Steve
Geez Beet1e, Nuke is right. Just about all your posts have some self promoting reference in them. You got this many kills, and were magnificent, you got that many kills and were magnificent. You even post the films...lol. You are attention deprived, aren't you?
With all the chest pounding you do, one would think you're some kind of killing machine. I ran into your 109 the other day and put you away in seconds.... gave you an and got no reply. Come back down to earth Beet1e like I sent you to earth in the virtual world.. for some of us, 7-10 kill missions are a daily occurance.
What surprised me, for someone that is as timid in the air as Beet1e, he even gets any kills. It would be interesting to see how many of his multiple kill sorties actually involved a 1v1 fight or at least one without him running to the nearest friendly or ack.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
R Acceleration, climb rate, controls authority, weapons and E retention is what make a fighter uber.
Considering the performance of the La7 drops of dramatically above 16,000ft and is not a very good turn fighter and the E retention is hardly stellar, one can hardly call it uber. The same for the P-51, N1K2 and Spitfire. They all have weaknesses that hardly allow them to be considered 'uber', unless you're one of those that just doesn't know how to fight them.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
What surprised me, for someone that is as timid in the air as Beet1e, he even gets any kills. It would be interesting to see how many of his multiple kill sorties actually involved a 1v1 fight or at least one without him running to the nearest friendly or ack.
Ack-Ack
Yep - just goes to show you don't know this game as well as you thought you did.
Here's a snapshot I took during one of my timid moments.
(http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/akak.jpg)
I've only just seen the text from steve - he's been on my ignore list ever since he lashed out at Curval (totally unprovoked verbal attack) and it was so bad that skuzzy had to lock the thread. NUKE is a life member of my ignore list, but clearly I'm not yet on his, or so it seems...
That's all from me - see you in a week. Good hunting
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yep - just goes to show you don't know this game as well as you thought you did.
Here's a snapshot I took during one of my timid moments.
I've only just seen the text from steve - he's been on my ignore list ever since he lashed out at Curval (totally unprovoked verbal attack) and it was so bad that skuzzy had to lock the thread. NUKE is a life member of my ignore list, but clearly I'm not yet on his, or so it seems...
That's all from me - see you in a week. Good hunting
Yes it was a timid moment. That one was the kill you got after you ran from me and then only re-engaged when I was busy with another plane. Face the facts, how many kills can you claim that you got without running for help to the nearest friendly or acks? I can say for sure that in all the fights that we've had, you've ran every single time from the initial 1v1 engagement, even when you've had the advantage only to return when I was engaged with another.
Your self-promotion is also making you self-delusional.
Ack-Ack
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Someone save me the time of reading all of this and tell me what k/t is please .
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Karnak, I was replying to muckmaw in my first post and to ack-ack in the second one, and only replied your last one, I didnt even read any of your previous posts.
BTW, uber is not equal to unbeatable. All and every plane has its weak points, even the 262.
Rude, for your mental health take into consideration my rule: do not measure yourself based on games.
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MANDOBLE,
Really? Sure looked like you were responding to me:
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Originally posted by Karnak:
MANDOBLE,
No. They're easy kills because they're slow
Really? Are the La7 and P51 slow planes? BTW, what means slow for you? slow diving? slow climbing? slow leveled? slow low? slow high? slow after turning 360 dgrees? slow with WEP? slow without WEP? Do you mean that their TOP speeds are "slow" at sea level? Do you know how many seconds (mins) do they need to reach their top speeds from a predefined "slow" start speed and fuel load?
RAW top speed is usefull only to reach a destination faster, flying straight and level. Acceleration, climb rate, controls authority, weapons and E retention is what make a fighter uber.
I can't uderstand why somebody who flies the Fw190D-9 undersells raw speed so badly and insists on misunderstanding acceleration.
The raw speed of the fighter I fly has won me quite a few fights, and it's top speed is 45mph slower than your Fw190D-9's.
Furthermore your Fw190D-9's acceleration can't be that bad because of its top speed. The Fw190D-9 is still accelerating long after the N1K2-J or Spitfire Mk IX have ceased to do so. It is true that they out accelerate the Fw190D-9 over a very narrow speed range, but at most speeds (and the speeds the Fw190D-9 should keep the fight most importantly) the Fw190D-9 will out accelerate them. If you are consistantly being out accelerated by those fighters it is either because you are misusing the Fw190D-9 or because you have set a challenge for yourself by using an aircraft that is unsuited to turn and burn fighting for turn and burn fighting. So either learn to use your fighter or stop complaining that it is at a disadvantage when used in a way it is unsuited to.
Slow to me means it can't catch my aircraft. I fly the Mosquito. Make your own conclusions from that.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Yes it was a timid moment. That one was the kill you got after you ran from me and then only re-engaged when I was busy with another plane. Face the facts, how many kills can you claim that you got without running for help to the nearest friendly or acks? I can say for sure that in all the fights that we've had, you've ran every single time from the initial 1v1 engagement, even when you've had the advantage only to return when I was engaged with another.
Your self-promotion is also making you self-delusional.
No self promotion. I'm not an ace, never was - but sometimes I do OK. People in my age group are not particularly worried about who's best at a game, and probably don't have the ambition. I think that particular kill of you was when you had come single handed to a field where about 4 of us were already up. Brave, but stupid.
Steve accused me of chest pounding - hardly. Do I not frequently ask for help on this BBS? With the 109G10 for example. I have posted many times for help, and received it from guys like Urchin, Grunherz and Ecke. Never thought of myself as a killing machine - that's why I posted the films - so there can be no argument or doubt about what happened or how. No-one is compelled to download films.
As for kills without running to friendly or acks, see further up this thread. -Film of 6 kill sortie at enemy base (no ack to run to), maybe one or two friendlies who I saved (one was a buff, I think), and I just used alt and speed, and techniques I learned by watching films of guys like Grunherz.
Whatever I say is never going to be good enough for you akak. If I were to have mentioned killing 9 with no film, you would have accused me of vulching. But the film disproves that, so you have to accuse me of something else - like running to friendly or ack. Now I've pointed you to yet another film which disproves what you said about running to friendlies or ack, you'll accuse me of yet something else again. But go ahead. I'm not going to be here to read it. Got to get ready now. Heading to the airport in a couple of hours...
Ciao ;)
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What about introducing a Sortie/Landed ratio in the stats ?
it will reward the players that prefer a 2 kill landed sortie to a 8 kill unlanded one ...
The only downside I see is an expected agressivity drop and AH is based on the combat and so agressivity ...
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Karnak
1 - We were not talking about D9.
2 - I fly more than D9, u can check previous 10 tours stats.
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Suave:
Kill / time.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by lazs2
whenever I see Fm2's or spits or hurris I know that I will at least get a fight....
they don't have any choice.
lazs
Very true.
I've had some real humdinger fights with Grunherz in the CT, Grun in the Hurri IIC, me in the FM-2.
Ultimately, the FM-2 proved to be the better airplane, and it had to be due to those Hispanos on the Hurri. I believe that the FM-2 generated the best k/s during the recent Finn/Russ set up, which speaks volumes considering that the majority of its opposition were La-5s, Yaks and Hurricane IICs. One of the dumbest things that some Yak and Lavochkin pilots will do when faced with an FM-2 on their tail is to begin to scissor. That's certain death against the Wildcat.
I've read some statements attributed to veteran Japanese pilots who upon encountering the FM-2 for the first time, were horrified to discover that this Wildcat was far more capable than the old F4F-4. Most Japanese Naval pilots feared the Hellcat more than any other U.S. fighter. This was due to its overall performance and the ability to pound their Zeros energy into the ground, then kill them almost at their leisure. Running into Wildcats caused them to rejoice that they finally had the better fighter. Then, quite unexpectedly, they discovered that this Wildcat did everything better than the older model, and was able to follow the late-model Zero through any gyration the Japanese pilots attempted. According to one Japanese pilot, this was a most sobering experience.
You are also correct that the vast majority of players flying the FM-2 seem to lack the basic skills to exploit the little fighter's wonderful maneuverability. Being able to latch onto one with an La-5 and stay there indicates that the pilot was clueless. Yet, the little flying tank sucked up about 30 SHvak hits before finally losing its tail! I had a similar experience with an F6F. Grumman Ironworks indeed!!!
My regards,
Widewing
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If the guy in a spit 5 is any good and you don't get help.... you should be meat in the fm2. that is why you don't see many of em. the spit is the better of the 2... it's close tho. If you do a lot of full deflection shooting (skilless spray and pray) like I do.. the fm2 works out better. you can get pieces of a lot of planes in a big fur and not have to saddle up on anyone.
most spits i kill have simply taken too long to either get a shot on me or get the kill on the other guy. I get a lot of kill messages on my way home.
lazs
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Karnak, I was replying to muckmaw in my first post and to ack-ack in the second one, and only replied your last one, I didnt even read any of your previous posts.
BTW, uber is not equal to unbeatable. All and every plane has its weak points, even the 262.
Rude, for your mental health take into consideration my rule: do not measure yourself based on games.
This game is my life bucko...back off!!!
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Soylent Green is People!
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K/T is designed to show everyone who the best vulcher and squatter is in the game.
not that thats bad or something .
just stupid.
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what's stupid is dredging up all these old threads.
lazs
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I like them French fried pertaters, uh hu.
most spits i kill have simply taken too long to either get a shot on me or get the kill on the other guy. I get a lot of kill messages on my way home, uh huh
What ya got in there good to eat?
I wanna be baptized