Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Syzygyone on June 11, 2003, 03:18:07 PM
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September 11 Today
By Peggy Noonan
The Wall Street Journal | June 11, 2003
. . .
And there is the declaration of the organizations of World Trade Center families-of-victims that there should not be a statue of the firemen at the WTC memorial site. Three hundred forty-three of them died that day, but to commemorate their sacrifice would be "hierarchical." They want it clear that no one was better than anyone else, that all alike were helpless, victims. . .
Does any here think that the firemen who died should not have a statute at the proposed WTC memorial?
Very curious about your thoughts!
Here are Noonans"
"But that is not true; it is the opposite of the truth. The men and women working in the towers were there that morning, and died. The firemen and rescue workers -- they weren't there, they went there. They didn't run from the fire, they ran into the fire. They didn't run down the staircase, they ran up the staircase. They didn't lose their lives, they gave them."
What are your thoughts?
:cool:
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Everyone a Hero.... Not victims, and yeah they should get a statue..
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That is what I was telling a while ago.
WTC - egalitarianism taken to the extreme (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85840&highlight=memorial)
miko
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
September 11 Today
By Peggy Noonan
The Wall Street Journal | June 11, 2003
. . .
And there is the declaration of the organizations of World Trade Center families-of-victims that there should not be a statue of the firemen at the WTC memorial site. Three hundred forty-three of them died that day, but to commemorate their sacrifice would be "hierarchical." They want it clear that no one was better than anyone else, that all alike were helpless, victims. . .
Does any here think that the firemen who died should not have a statute at the proposed WTC memorial?
Very curious about your thoughts!
Here are Noonans"
"But that is not true; it is the opposite of the truth. The men and women working in the towers were there that morning, and died. The firemen and rescue workers -- they weren't there, they went there. They didn't run from the fire, they ran into the fire. They didn't run down the staircase, they ran up the staircase. They didn't lose their lives, they gave them."
What are your thoughts?
Pretty obvious situation here. Nothing heroic about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seems like there should be one memorial for all the dead and another specifically for the heroes who rushed in while the civilians rushed out.
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Originally posted by Arfann
Pretty obvious situation here. Nothing heroic about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seems like there should be one memorial for all the dead and another specifically for the heroes who rushed in while the civilians rushed out.
I agree with your sentiment apparently there is another poitn of view. I for one am quite perplexed by the concept of "hierarchical" loss. I guess those that espouse no statute feel that a lives are of equal value, and/or that the deaths of the innocent civilians is neither more nor less a loss than the death of those who moved into harms way and/or that all who died were victims of the same atrocity. Is this some remnant of some politically correct thought process? Can anyone help me out here with an explanation?
I just can't see that the willing sacrifice made by the first resonders does not deserve some separate and distinct memorial. I feel very sorry for those innocent civilians who were killed. Perhaps it is just me, but, I really have to say that I feel more sorrow for the loss of those who braved the danger to help their fellow man.
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What about a statue for the cops that died. They ran to and gave their lives just as the firemen did. I think there should be a statue to show all the victims. A statue of a man a woman a child a fireman and a cop they all deserve to be recognized. Anything less would be disrespectful.
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Originally posted by icemaw
What about a statue for the cops that died. They ran to and gave their lives just as the firemen did. I think there should be a statue to show all the victims. A statue of a man a woman a child a fireman and a cop they all deserve to be recognized. Anything less would be disrespectful.
I, of course, would include leo's among those who went in harm's way.
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Yep, big difference between being there and going there.
All victims, but the ones that were there out of their own free will deserve special recognition.
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IMHO the use of the word heros is way overused now a days. Everyone who dies and or gets caught up in a catastrophe is a hero. To me, that seems like a slap in the face to every true red blooded hero that has ever walked the face of the earth. It is horrible that people died in the WTC's on 9/11, it is even more horrible that rescue personnel, both police, fireman, and paramedics died as well. If you want to call anyone heros, then they have earned it. They did not have to be there, yet they came anyway. To hell with the politically correct "hierarchal" death chart that some overpaid legal dipsh*t came up with. The civilians were there, while they did not choose to die, guess what, it friggin happened, the rescue personnel, DID choose to be there, and that friends, IS the BOTTOM LINE.
The sad thing about this is, that these politically correct stunninghunks actually cultivate a lot of sentiment amongst our sorely uneducated, evian sipping yuppy losers in this country.
Give the rescue personnel a statue. They deserve it.
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Arfan and Bodhi have it pretty well stated IMO. If you happen to be somewhere and a disaster strikes, you are not a hero. If a disaster strikes and you respond to help, that is a sign of heroism. Going in harms way, particularly to help others, is the mark of heroism.
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Originally posted by icemaw
What about a statue for the cops that died. They ran to and gave their lives just as the firemen did. I think there should be a statue to show all the victims. A statue of a man a woman a child a fireman and a cop they all deserve to be recognized. Anything less would be disrespectful.
Of course I would include anyone who went into those buildings to help othes, i.e. cops, paramedics, etc etc. But,the article that prompted this only mentioned firefighters.
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ain't you guys got it yet!
in our PC world there are no heroes .. just ppl doing their jobs!!! and everyone doing it the same- no one doing it better or worse than their coworker- just different.
in our PC world there is no right way or wrong way to do anything .. all ways are good enough
in our PC world there is no right or wrong just "feelings" .. which by all and any means should be taken not to "hurt" anyones
what numb nut would think anything otherwise than that those firefighters deserve a memorial ... what a crock of PC ****.
and the innocent victims need a memorial also .. not for them but for the rest of the dumbarses left behind so they DO NOT FORGET!
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Ex USAF Firefighter here and my vote is no,
Firemen will always do the job, some will die, and no statue is required.
Our troops, police, firefighters, Americans all, and are remembered as a group and honored that way.
To many heroes past, present and future to honor with a statue. One memorial for all as they all died with honor and together.
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Its ok. Orange County Choppers, of the "American Chopper" tv series, built a custom motorcycle for the firemen. It was a real piece of art. The carb was shaped like a hydrant and the styling was very reminiscent of a fire engine. The episode aired just last week. I was impressed at the amount of effort and cooperation from the various companies involved in the project. At the end, Paul Jr. mounted a diamondplate with a bolt from the WTC onto the frame just below the tank and everyone got all choked up.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Its ok. Orange County Choppers, of the "American Chopper" tv series, built a custom motorcycle for the firemen. It was a real piece of art. The carb was shaped like a hydrant and the styling was very reminiscent of a fire engine. The episode aired just last week. I was impressed at the amount of effort and cooperation from the various companies involved in the project. At the end, Paul Jr. mounted a diamondplate with a bolt from the WTC onto the frame just below the tank and everyone got all choked up.
saw that the other night ... it was awesome
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And there is the declaration of the organizations of World Trade Center families-of-victims that there should not be a statue of the firemen at the WTC memorial site.
Where is this declaration? (I sense a straw man).
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From a December 2001 meeting of the various focus groups.
Families of Victims - felt that the memorial should be a place of remembering, without being somber. Civilian and uniformed victims should be treated equally and listed in a single alphabetical list. It should capture the complex spectrum of feelings experienced during the aftermath of the tragedy and celebrate "people helping people" and the strength of the human spirit. The memorial should encourage a range of emotions, from mourning and loss to the pride and celebration of the city coming together. They also felt that the memorial on the WTC site should include the victims of the flights as well as those killed at the Pentagon, making ita truly national memorial that addresses the three locations-New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from http://nynv.aiga.org/pdfs/NYNV_MemorialsBriefingBook.pdf
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being a junior fireifighter myself........we have a 9/11 memorial in my town.......a bell....mounted on steel from the WTC.......ide say put up a statue of a cop and a firefighter
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what kind of person would ever be against a statue for fallen firefighters? so they have two memorials? whats the big ****ing deal? firemen and cops chose going into harms way for people they will never know for a living. i know theres bad cops out there but what kid doesnt idolize firemen or cops? falling in a river makes you the victim of an accident. jumping into the river to save someone makes you willing to risk your life for another human being. big difference. sounds to me like some pissy image dominated stockbrokers widow cant handle that her hubby cant be a hero like all those middle class firemen.
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midnight target what does "straw man" mean?
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Originally posted by Scootter
Ex USAF Firefighter here and my vote is no,
Firemen will always do the job, some will die, and no statue is required.
Our troops, police, firefighters, Americans all, and are remembered as a group and honored that way.
To many heroes past, present and future to honor with a statue. One memorial for all as they all died with honor and together.
Scooter, you are so correct but that is exactly why there needs to be a separate memorial. Yes, firemen will always do their job. Yes, policemen, like the ones in LA in the 44 minutes incident, will do their job. But, that job involves risk to life and limb for the benefit of strangers. How many people were saved because first responders got them out? Who knows exactly but it has to be thousands. And that's just in the WTC.
You know what happens when cops and firefighters hesitate. People die, usually innocent people. i.e. look at the Columbine argument as an example.
A memorial to the actions of those true heroes is not for them. NO tribute could ever suffice. A memorial is for the surviving members of the society that they died trying to protect. A memorial is needed so that there will constantly be inspiration to and affirmation of sacrifice for the benefit of others. To insure that there will always be heroes here, willing to do the hard things.
It's what sets us apart, I think. And you are of course correct, They do not do it to get praise, or raises, or medals, or statues. But, I look at it more for the future than for the posthuminous accolades. Look at all the military memorials there are, WORLDWIDE. I see this as no differenet, and indeed, even more impelling than a military memorial (and I'm a guy who looses it at the sound of TAPS).
Some of the most emotionally compelling photographs I have ever seen were:
a) the flag in the rubble of the Murrah Building, put there by first responders soon after their arrival, and
b) the firemen raising the American flag above the rubble at the WTC, soon after their arrival.
c) the flag draped over the side of the Pentagon
Those pictures say to the world, in the midst of terrible devasation and suffereing, "THIS NATION WILL SURVIVE"
The reason we will survive is becuase of the unselfish willingness toward self-sacrifice of those heroes that planted those flags.
Oh well, I guess I'll never understand the egalitarian concept. But I can't help wondering if those who preach the egalitarian concept could do so if there weren't those walking amoung us willing to die to protect their eglitarian necks!
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Originally posted by anonymous
midnight target what does "straw man" mean?
A baseless point that is incredibly one sided and as such provides easy fodder to be argued against (knocked down as in a straw man). Usually either untrue or semitrue or hearsay.
For example...
I heard So and So beats his wife. I'm against wife beating, how about you?
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(disclaimer: This is not directed at anyone on this thread. In fact, I havent read any post except the first one)
Insecure a-holes with small dicks.
Are the ones trying to stop that statue. Becuase they need the "But, I'm special too."-feeling... otherwise their little world will collapse. They cannot accept the fact that there are people braver than them, people putting their lives on the line every day, people that run into burning buildings. See they dont like that thought, they want to feel like a hero too, sitting at their pathetic deskjob shuffling paper from one tray to another. So they argue along the lines of "no one was better than anyone else, that all alike were helpless, victims".
What unbelieveable B-S.
Soldiers, cops, firefighters, paramedics. They all put their life on the line for the rest of us. They dont expect statues, and they dont do it for the money. But to say that they are just like the rest of us is an insult. In times of peace, people tend to look down on soldiers and cops, but in times of war they whimp behind their backs. Its the same thing here really. And it will get worse, as 9-11 fades back through time.
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I agree with Hortlund.
for all the Firefighters of the world.
Oh... yes... for the cops too.... when they dont set speedtraps. ;) :D
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Bad SA today Naso ?
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Originally posted by straffo
Bad SA today Naso ?
No, no, just the fear. :)
Goodbye to driving licence for 6 months, and 2.000 Euro fine. :eek:
And with my work will be a real damage. :)
Funny note:
They (with disgusted voice ;) ) are using civil fast (rice?) cars, and provoke you for a race, then arrest you :eek:
Bastidges !! :)
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"Greater Love Hath No Man Than This, That He Lay Down His Life For His Friends"
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Where is this declaration? (I sense a straw man).
So did your follow-on post clear up the "straw man" thing?
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
So did your follow-on post clear up the "straw man" thing?
Somewhat.
If you were to read the actual declaration from all the groups involved in the memorial discussions, there was much more agreement than there was dissension. It was also noted on that site that ONE (1) man in the family-of-victims group expressed concern about the memorial being given over completely to the rescue workers.
I think we would all agree that the memorial should be for the thousands of victims of the tragedy. I think we should also agree that those brave rescue workers deserve a place of honor on that hallowed ground.
The family's concerns are valid. It would be inappropriate to have a memorial that centered solely on the rescue workers, just as it would be inappropriate to not give them their due recognition.
If Auschwitz became a memorial to the 101st Airborne (or whoever liberated the camp) it would be inappropriate. However, the liberators deserve to be honored.
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MT, my friend:
You are such a fine middle-of-the-road pleaser type! What did you do? Take a graduate course in How to Win Friends and Influence BBSs? ;) I'm tryin' to smoke out one or two of them there "eglitarians", ya know? Tryin to spice up this BBS with some fiestiness that we haven't seen for a few weeks. ;) I was hoping that they would bite :eek: But, noooooo. Mr Level headed has to jump in with all his calm cool reasonableness. Damn! In the future, would you please advise when you're on vacation away from the internet so I can have some fun!
:D
Seriously though, what you say is very well put, especially the liberation thing. Just substitute rescuer for liberator.
Cya Up!
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I was gone since last Friday!
You had your shot. :p
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I think they should build the staute of the firemen raising the American flag from the rubble........ make the statue HISTORICLY accurate, not politicly correct......
the men will represent the heros who died that day, firemen, policemen, and paramedics...... and the flag will represent all of the innocent Americans that died that day.
my 2 cents.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I was gone since last Friday!
You had your shot. :p
Yeah, but you snuck away and dint tell noone!