Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on October 13, 2001, 06:00:00 PM

Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Urchin on October 13, 2001, 06:00:00 PM: The two vehicles are worthless as is, and even having them in the game leads to frustration as people might hop into them expecting that they will have a prayer against other GV's. This is not the case, although in FACT I don't think a panzer had much to fear from a M3, M16, or Ostwind- they are easy meat in the MA. Furthermore, the Panzer will lose its track a .50 or .30 cal bullet comes with 1000 yards of the tank, and the damage does not show up on the damage listing.

I really do wonder if a .50 caliber machine gun would have ANY effect at all on a tank, I rather doubt it. Anyway, HTC, please fix the M8 and Panzer (make them at least plausible to use vs. other GVs) or remove them from the game. Thanks.

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: GRUNHERZ on October 13, 2001, 06:13:00 PM: The 50cal will not kill PanzerIVs in RL. IT IS NOT A whoopee WW2 antitank weapon. toejam even the Shermans 75mm gun had trouble against even PanzerIV armor. For example it could not penetrate Panzer IV frontal armor untill well under 500yards. Te aromor is 80mm while the 75mm penetratyes only 66mm at 500yards.

Now! HTC listen up good.

Even if the track was cut, and if in the unlikely chance it all rolled off from under the wheels, the tank would only tilt maybe 2-3 inches to one side. The track is only that high. The way you guys model it now the tank falls more than 1 foot to one side. For this to happend you would have to completly destroy and remove at three of the panzers four armored suspension assemblies per side. 50cal MG will not do this.

It seems that you guys at HTC attribute some special magic power to 50cals in the anti-tank role OR that you still havent sorted out the GV damage model.

Sorry for the criticism if you find it offensive, but just admit the problem and commit to fix it.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: minus on October 13, 2001, 06:33:00 PM: :D super USA 50 caliber , bevare Grun or Super AH MAN wil kick your but :D

damn anyway , the 50 caliber in AH is more sily like in Holywood movies :p
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wilbus on October 13, 2001, 07:27:00 PM: Fix the bugs and dammage modell sure, that would be great. BUT please don't ask for removal of veichles or planes, that'll never happen (I am ALLMOST sure) and SHOULD NOT happen, only takes extra time.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: pdog_109 on October 13, 2001, 07:31:00 PM: I taught they would fix it in 1.08 instead of adding more BS planes which realy don't do anything.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wingnut_0 on October 13, 2001, 08:21:00 PM: Is this another one of those stupid post like the 109 post by Urchin.......hmmm strikingly familiar.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: LtHans on October 13, 2001, 08:33:00 PM: My vote is to increase the ground vehicle physics and add more.

Hans.

Bin Laden can claim to be a druid. We will still kill him.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Animal on October 13, 2001, 08:47:00 PM: dont worry Minus, I will save you time by replying for you:

htc eveil company they racist for whiners adn most ppl in this gaem are whiner whieners wich are the worst kind lol :) rofles. why no fix vehicals or take off the game? because they wants the moneys!
but OK htc dont listen to us because we are wrong and we whineres to u and u wont listen to opinioons :rolleyes:
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: XNachoX on October 13, 2001, 09:34:00 PM: (http://members.home.net/sweetgrass00/simmons.jpg)
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: mrfish on October 13, 2001, 09:53:00 PM: [ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: zapkin on October 13, 2001, 10:24:00 PM: I have no pity for the ground maggots. The name of the game is Aces High...

Haw haw haw haw haw haw haw

:p
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: -ammo- on October 13, 2001, 10:27:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Animal:
dont worry Minus, I will save you time by replying for you:

htc eveil company they racist for whiners adn most ppl in this gaem are whiner whieners wich are the worst kind lol :) rofles. why no fix vehicals or take off the game? because they wants the moneys!
but OK htc dont listen to us because we are wrong and we whineres to u and u wont listen to opinioons :rolleyes:

LOL!
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Animal on October 14, 2001, 12:20:00 AM: LOL NACHO

nice one :D
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: newguy on October 14, 2001, 02:31:00 AM: ROFLMAO Nacho! That is way too fediddlein funny! I'm sorry, I cant look at that with out bustin a gut.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Kweassa on October 14, 2001, 04:02:00 AM: And another thread rises up in fumes of the mocking bird crew.

WTG. Freedom of speech, freedom of mockery.

ps) constructive criticism under self-regulation from the community. Wow, at this rate, AH might do WB proud.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: mrfish on October 14, 2001, 04:22:00 AM: [ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wotan on October 14, 2001, 05:02:00 AM: I think the point is they are next to useless with the current damage model..

Urchin knows, I know, you know they aren't going anywhere.

The full time "your a whiner crew" knows it.

Why reply at all? other then to get your "digs" in I guess.

Especially when everyone agrees the cardboard box armor is nonsense.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Animal on October 14, 2001, 05:05:00 AM: well cry me a river wotan, but ive seen more gvs now more than ever, and many people having fun in them. you actually believe they should be removed? lol.
when i read urchins post i thought it was a joke.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wotan on October 14, 2001, 06:43:00 AM: roadkill animal gvs in mindinao... ok bud theres maybe 2 bases with spawn points. You may see m16s but there arent near as many as the beta map or the old map where a1 was at 10k then they lowered it to 3k or in the ute map or the baltic map.

and read my post i never they should be removed or kept.

I said the damage model makes them (ostie panzer)useless (50 cal takes out track).

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: BenDover on October 14, 2001, 08:33:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by zapkin:
I have no pity for the ground maggots. The name of the game is Aces High...

Haw haw haw haw haw haw haw

:p

zapkin,this is wot i mean by you seem like a moron in your posts :D
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: mrfish on October 14, 2001, 10:55:00 AM: i've seen previous posts about gun and armor performance and was impressed by how knowledgable the ah community is. there are way too many real gun experts here not to post a reason-seeking response...

----what caliber did the damage start at historically? what damage was consistent from 50cal, 20mm etc... anecdotal evidence? physical evidence? etc....is that consistent with the aces high model and if not how can it be fixed?

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Pongo on October 14, 2001, 10:57:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Animal:
dont worry Minus, I will save you time by replying for you:

htc eveil company they racist for whiners adn most ppl in this gaem are whiner whieners wich are the worst kind lol :) rofles. why no fix vehicals or take off the game? because they wants the moneys!
but OK htc dont listen to us because we are wrong and we whineres to u and u wont listen to opinioons :rolleyes:

lol
But seriosly the trees have slowed down the half tracks and that has made the panzer alot more useful cause it has a chance to kill at way longer ranges.
3 of us assassins the other night took panzers and rolled a whole swarm of halftracks and osties right back to their spawn point. The ranges we were firing at gave us a huge advantage vs the halftracks.
First time in a while that the Panzer was much use but we definatly had the upper hand against the 1/2 tracks.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Urchin on October 14, 2001, 01:15:00 PM: Yea, I probably came off a little stupid in my original post. What I am really rather confused, or maybe irritated about, is this. What is the Panzers purpose in the game? Why is it there? Is it there to fight other GV's? That seems logical, except for the fact that if your tank is strafed by .50 cal MGs (or even if it gets within 1500 yards of an M3), YOU CAN NO LONGER MOVE!

It takes me, on average, 2 hits with the main gun to kill an M3 or an M16. It takes them, on average, 2 hits to detrack me so that I can no longer move. This renders the panzer slightly useless on offense. If you want to take a GV to an enemy base, take an M16 or an Osty. The M16 is a better all around choice, because you can defend yourself against other GV's a lot easier than with the Osties waterhose, but both of those are far more survivable than the Panzer is.

If you want to DEFEND your base that is under attack from M16s or Ostys, take an M16. If you take a tank, you will lose your track, so get in the position you want to be in before you engage them. This is rendered much more difficult with the advent of 'towns' with the maproom outside of the base, since if you get detracked halfway to the town you are still fairly useless.

Also, why is the M8 in the game again? I thought it was a "light tank"... armored against machinegun fire but not the sort of main gun round that it and the Panzer has? Oh wait, that can't be right, because we seem to have depleted uranium .50 shells in the M16's 4 .50 caliber machineguns. Furthermore, the M8 isn't much faster than the Panzer is (I don't have a TON of experience in it, but when I was driving it yesterday I never got it above 27 mph, over level, open ground. The Panzer will do 24-25).

A couple other things about the Panzer that sort of bother me. First off.. the cupola gun in the Panzer doesn't rotate 360 degrees. Why? Shouldn't the rail for it run all the way around? Also.. that gun is a .30 caliber gun, why not make it a .50 caliber? The difference in hitting power between a .50 and .30 seems to be quite extraordinary, why not give the Panzer some way to defend itself from air attack? (Please note, the above is solely personal experience.. It is my experience that you CAN shoot someone down quite easily with the single .50 cal mounted on the M3's roof [and the M3 is also far less likely to be rendered immobile] when they make one pass, whereas in the Panzer you are lucky to shoot them down after 5 or 6 passes.)

One other question.. how well armored was the IL-2, historically? I assume it was armored sufficiently to stop 'ground fire', but what caliber ground fire? It is exceedingly easy to shred an Il-2 with the M16, would the armor on the real plane have stopped most of that damage?

On a side note I edited the name of the post, since apparently my 'histrionics' were bothering people.

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: minus on October 14, 2001, 01:21:00 PM: seems ,,animal,, got realy some psy problem with my nick, what up man ? <wonder if ever will se a < comic superman figure fly around > :rolleyes:
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: SKurj on October 14, 2001, 02:11:00 PM: CC i'd like to see the Panzer and the Ostwind toughened up. They both suffer the track bug. The M8.. well I don't use it because on level ground it won't accelerate enough to get out of second gear..

Fix em soon +)

Nuff said

SKurj
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: mrfish on October 14, 2001, 02:23:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Urchin:
On a side note I edited the name of the post, since apparently my 'histrionics' were bothering people.

lol - second only to creamo's 'boozonics' :D
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Player Snapshot on October 14, 2001, 05:23:00 PM: My understanding is the GV's are just models of planes with the wings removed. (a) The damage model isn't even close in the vehicles, not even in the same ballpark of those in some other sims.

It is true, this is an airplane game, so I guess it is not a terrible crime to have the crappiest vehicle models.

(a) I read this in a review of the game, the guy claimed to have spoken with HiTech - I tried to find it agagain but I dont remeber what site it was.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: DanielMcIntyre on October 15, 2001, 04:17:00 AM: A .50 cal bullet will have virtually no affect on a panzer IV. Virtually none in that the gunner may be killed when manning the mg and possibly on the first pass before a tank is buttoned up, .50 cals may enter the tank via the view slits, entry point on top. After the initial attack a tank will button up and thereafter .50's will be useless and in no way should be able to penetrate the tough armour of the panzer IV. This is not my opinion this is a fact.

I rolled a Panzer today and was repeatedly killed by a Hurricane hispano version. IMO 20mm cannon will have as much effect on Panzer IV armour as .50 cal. IMO none. It should however be able to detrack the Panzer. IMO a 37mm gun will also have little effect on Panzer IV armour unless it is sustained fire on the rear of the tank, it should be able to detrack and damage the turret however. An 88mm gun should be able to penetrate and totally destroy a Panzer IV obviously.

Therefore an m16 / m3 should be chitting itself when it see's a Panzer IV, their guns should have no effect whatsoever.

HTC please

Tour 21 Pnzr Vs Stats
---------------------

The Panzer IV H has 174 kills and has been killed 12 times against the M-3.

this should read

The Panzer IV H has 186 kills and has been killed 0 times against the M-3

and

The Panzer IV H has 278 kills and has been killed 31 times against the M-16.

this should read

The Panzer IV H has 309 kills and has been killed 0 times against the M-16.

in addition to this, check these stats

The Panzer IV H has 47 kills and has been killed 42 times against the P-51D.

vs

The Panzer IV H has 20 kills and has been killed 28 times against the Hurricane IID.

vs

The Panzer IV H has 13 kills and has been killed 68 times against the Hurricane IIC.

vs

The Panzer IV H has 8 kills and has been killed 40 times against the Il-2.

Seems the 20mm and .50 cal of the P51 and Hurricane IIC are way more effective against armour than the planes specifically designed to kill armour. Looks like these two planes are gonna just sit in their hangers and stagnate.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Seeker on October 15, 2001, 04:24:00 AM: P. 47 pilots involved in the Italian campaign were instructed to fire at the road surface either infront of or behind aroured GV's; the idea being that the rounds would riccochet up through the floor armour disabling the engine/transmission etc. Laugh all you want, but this is fact.

I must, however add that I've absolutly no idea how effective this actually was.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: hazed- on October 15, 2001, 07:16:00 AM: INANE DRIVEL! all of this petty squabling over who should post this or that and how they must post things.

YOU SOUND LIKE A BUNCH OF OAP'S IN A TEA SHOP!

Urchin IS CORRECT about the modeling of Panzer and M8.they are both incorrect and 90% of AH community knows it.Those that dont use them dont really give a sh*t about them.
Remove them? NO THANKS.

BUT a temporary removal or EVEN A MESSAGE from HTC would solve all this crap.
Im sorry HTC but i feel you are helping this animosity between players by saying nothing and allowing frustrated players to use them and allow them to think thats the way they will stay unless they kick up a fuss.Even worse ive seen members of your company insulting those very same customers by calling them whiners.
I USED to be vocal about certain aspects of AH but ive toned it down because i cant be arsed dealing with aholes who shout whiner everytime.
Strange that during beta days mine and others comments helped you discover bugs but now its not appreciated or wanted?
Yes i know sometimes customers DO whine BUT SO WHAT? you have their money, you have the data on what is wrong (ie you make the game) and we only know or discover bugs by playing for ages and suddenly feeling angry after the frustration builds, at which time we cry out for a word from you guys on the problems.

So urchin is pissed off? why? because he has no idea if HTC agrees there is a problem and will change it or if they dont and wont.
a simple note at the end of this thread saying
'yes we agree there are problems and it will be dealt with as quickly as possible'
would stop ALL OF THIS CRAP.
then lock the thread and thats it, done and dusted.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: hazed- on October 15, 2001, 07:38:00 AM: oh and BTW the CONVOY trucks need some adjusting.

took M8 A (F*CKING :))long way to an enemy supply road and thought 'right I'll sit in the road and blast em as they come toward me!,mwahahah and other evil laughing :)

Suddenly over the crest of a hill 5 or 6 trucks came hurtling along!!! 'open fire gunner they are sitting ducks!' came a voice in my head, bang,bang bang went the HE gun as it plastered the front truck! er...hold on...they getting real close!, images of the DUEL from the 70's flashed in my mind, BANG BANG BANG more hits but nothing the trucks came on at what seemed like 100mph!!
in panic i jumped to driver position as the trucks loomed large infront then CRASH they pilled through me like a freight train on PCP's!.

and so ended the illustrious career of the toughest M8 crew in the world.
epitaph:

'they were toejame! couldnt even kill a truck full of sheep'

Please could we change this ?
i would have thought some old opal truck being shot, what id estimate 6 or 7 times with a HE shell full in the front would surely at least slow down?
I have managed since to shoot a couple of the trucks with a panzers (HE)gun and it was like some horrible 'fixed' fairground shooting alley.prizes wizzing by that only a professional marksman could hit :).
I didnt sit in the road this time but i only managed a couple of hits as my gun couldnt traverse fast enough for the convoy! :)

er this is a whine right?
Im doing wrong by telling you this?
better that you go discover it for yourselves?
Im only ruining your day?

sheesh im getting tired of it.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wotan on October 15, 2001, 08:44:00 AM: seeker those stories are bull crap most roads were dirt or cobble stone and the angle blah blah blah ...........

this has been said argued or whatever but needless to say it didn't happen.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Am0n on October 15, 2001, 09:11:00 AM: Its nearly impossible to destroy a Panzer with the M16, but it does indeed take a few seconds of sustained hits to render it treadless.

It does kinda suck to have this happen, but my question is why the heck are you letting the m16 get that close to you when you got a cannon that can shoot 10X as far.

The M8 rocks, it has a much higher ROF than the Panzer so it seems, the only draw back is you can either take HE or AP, not mixures or smoke (and the obvious lack of armor). But if you get close to a city in a M8 with 80 HE, consider it gone becuase its ROF is so high you can lobb 2 shells before the first hits the target at a decent range.

I do agree there are tons of GVs out now, GVs rock no matter if your driving them or fighting them, its good to have a mixure of targets.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: DanielMcIntyre on October 15, 2001, 06:41:00 PM: Quote

Its nearly impossible to destroy a Panzer with the M16, but it does indeed take a few seconds of sustained hits to render it treadless.

It does kinda suck to have this happen, but my question is why the heck are you letting the m16 get that close to you when you got a cannon that can shoot 10X as far.

Err point 1, totally untrue, its very possible to destroy a panzer with an m16. Ping Ping, gun dead, Ping, track ded, many more pings Panzer explodes.

In fact the i've been killed by m3's and have killed panzers with m3's.

And point 2, why let them get so close, I once hit an m16 22 times with AP rounds and all it did was smoke. I started recording after the 5th hit so I have proof. Many times when i've killed panzers, the guy i just killed spawns an m16 and kills me. He don't spawn another panzer? why? I hit an m3 once as he came round a corner, he pulled up, pinged my track out first ping, by the time I realigned my gun, he'd pinged my gun out and ping ping ping, panzer explodes?

There is obviously a bug with mg rounds on panzers and ostwinds.

Apparantly panzer and ostwind armour has been toughened up, but I've only noticed a difference in Pnzr vs Pnzr duels.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Seeker on October 15, 2001, 07:43:00 PM: Wotan,

It's not bull crap, it's established, accepted fact. That's beyond dispute.

What *is* open to dispute is how effective it was. As you rightly point out, the road surface must play a part in the equation, and, again as you point out, that was extremly variable in Italy.

Hence my extreme uncertainty as to whether or not it actually achieved anything.

But the fact that they were trained to attempt it, and that they did attempt is a matter of historical record.

<edited for spillning>

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Seeker ]
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: mrfish on October 15, 2001, 09:03:00 PM: what zigrat said
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Animal on October 16, 2001, 01:03:00 AM: zigrat hasnt even posted here you fool
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: mrfish on October 16, 2001, 01:12:00 AM: well if he did i'm sure it would be meaningful ....fool.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: gatt on October 16, 2001, 03:20:00 AM: Plz HTC, fix the whole ground war stuff.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wotan on October 16, 2001, 04:45:00 AM: no its not established and it is bull crap.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: GRUNHERZ on October 16, 2001, 04:56:00 AM: Seeker, the story of the "instruction" is true.

However it never worked in RL. Just compare the thickness of hull bottom armor of German tanks to the BEST case 50cal 90degree penetration figures and its clear 50cal would have trouble even if it hit the plates at a 90degree angle. Then add the fact that the 50cal must first bounce off the ground, which will deform the shell and cut down its velocity, then any likely richocet would impact the hull bottom at an extremly shallow angle and would just bounce off. It DID not work.

Apparently the US pilots were told that german tanks had no armor on the bottom. Thats what I heard from a WW2 vet who mentioned this story, again they were told that German tanks had no armor on the bottom.

German tanks DO have armor on the bottom.

So both you and Wotan are right, the "instruction" happened but the effectiveness of this technique is a myth.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Staga on October 16, 2001, 05:35:00 AM: Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf.H

Armor (mm@degrees)
Front Side Rear Top Bottom
Hull 80@76 30@90 20@82 - 10@0
Superst. 80@80 30@90 20@79 12@0-5
Turret 50@80 30@64 30@75 18@0-7
Mantlet 50@60-90
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Seeker on October 16, 2001, 06:33:00 AM: My point exactly, Grunhertz.

It *was* an instructed technique.

It *was* an accepted practise.

It *was* implentented in the field

But....I've no idea how effective it actualy was (I'd imagine that it may have disabled half tracks and the like, and leave a "real" tank unscathed).

Certainly I know one Jug pilot personaly (through the net) who actualy did it on many occasions as part of Operation strangle; he says it worked. However, I'm very well aware that allied anti-armour claims were just as misleading as arial claims, and I wouldn't blame him for surveying a railyard he'd just jabo'd from a jug cockpit at 400 MPH, seeing all the damage, and assuming *everything* had been flattend.

I'll try and dig up his posts.

I've an interesting combat report from him if any one has web space so that it can be reproduced here.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wotan on October 16, 2001, 07:59:00 AM: instruction or rumor?

hey jimmy yesterday just fer toejams and giiggle while rtb'n I saw a pnzr head bac toward german lines so I starfed it in my jug. Damnedests thing though I saw them jerries leave the pnzr and run into the woods. I bet a couple of those 50cal bounced up and tour the engine up.

Then it spreads around and soon everyone tellin each how to kill a pnzr by bouncing 50s of the ground.

again instruction or rumor..........

its still bull crap
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Seeker on October 16, 2001, 08:33:00 AM: Just what sort of documentation would satisfy you, Wotan?

You know you're wrong. You'll also note that I've made absolutly no claims as to it's effectiveness, I think it's nuts too.

But that doesn't change the history.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Wotan on October 16, 2001, 09:58:00 AM: if ya have any then show it.

Pilots stories are just that stories.

They were many discussion about this on different boards. They all had specifics as to ground clearenceof enemy armored vehicles aoa etc. I'm not going to waste my time cutting and pasting but inorder for that method to be "instructed" the ground clearence and angle of attack plus road surface has to be known as well.

Now follow along. Very few roads were paved or hardened to a point that would allow a "bounce" in ww2 except at a very lo aoa. and I mean very lo. The people who would develope such "instructions" would know this. And if they did they would know it would be impossible. They would also have some idea of how the enemy vehicles are armored (see stagas post). They also designed the ap round and know its capabilities.

What training manual do you have the "instructs" pilots to "bounce" 50cal rounds off the ground inorder to "kill" an armored vehicle.

No pilot account can make it true because 1 it is impossible.

Its not a question of its effectivenes because again it is impossible. Why waste "instruction" time on the impossible.

You made the claim so prove it.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Seeker on October 16, 2001, 12:59:00 PM: Wotan, I think you and I are arguing about two different things...

If I understand you correctly, you hold that it was an impractical, if not impossible technique.

I agree. I don't think it would work either.

Nonetheless, that has nothing to do with the instructions the poor schmucks in the field were given

Then again, I think we're all aware of the sometimes preposterus advice sometimes given by rear area officers to men serving at the front; armour plating being refused for Spitfires as it would "spoil the plane's balance", the subject we're currently discussing and eating carrots to improve night vision are just some easy examples.

I'll dig up the posts as soon as I can and put them up here, but we're talking of an eighty year old gentleman, it'll be in his own sweet time.
Title: Please FIX the Panzer and M8
Post by: Staga on October 17, 2001, 03:37:00 AM: "Men against Tanks, A History of Ant-Tank Warfare" by John Weeks.
Ammunition type, range and penetration. Armour type not specified.

Various 20mm, range 400yds, penetr. 0,6-1 inch
Boys AT-Rifle, range 300yds, penetr. 0,5inch
----------
"Handbook on USSR Military forces".
12,7mm MG with B-22 API, 200yds, pen. 20mm
20mm ShVAK BS API, 1000yds, pen. 25mm
----------
"Technical Ammunition Guide series2 pamphlet8, British AT-rifle ammunition 1917-1945" by Labbet&Brown. 7 out from 10 bullets penetrated armour, range 100m, angle of hit 20 degree.
Boys AT-rifle, cartridge SA AP .55inch Mk1, penetr. 16mm and with Mk2 ammunition 19mm.
----------
"Military Small arms of the 20th century", Hogg&Weeks.
Boys AT-Rifle, 300yds, angle 0 degree, pen.21mm
----------
"WW2 Tanks", Eric Grove.
20mm KWK30, range 500m, Angle 0 degr., penetr.24mm
----------

I couldn't find penetration data for .50cal (12,7mm) but if 20mm AT-rifles and cannons had problems to penetrate 20mm armour even from optimal angle from 100meter I found it hard to believe 12,7mm can kill/disable tanks.
Does anyone have penetr.values for Hispano?