Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bustr on June 13, 2003, 02:27:26 PM
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Shane....I'm LA7 2k lower than Spit9. I'm level 300+knts. We merg, spit is diving to me, I've wep'd, shallow dive, at 1200d out on the merg I pull up and over.
As I come over the top I see the spit turning left up to meet me. He dove for a while longer before his turn. We pass I'm nose down. Then I pull back at 45% to left up and over. I cannot get the spits tail. I dive run, 2.4d out I reverse, we close and he HO quarter angles and gets my rudder on next pass.
How do I beat the Spit9 from lesser alt and co-alt with LA7 1 to 1 without doing HO? One notch flaps leaves me too slow in the turns and spit powers around on my tail. Run out and turn back is just a jousting contest. Also LA7 cannons dont seem to be as accurate as the spit9 cannons in AH.
-bustr-
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well you did a good reversal and apparently faily evened out the alt, and perhaps e differences when you did that 2.4k extension he got semi-lucky with his front-qtr shot... if he had missed you might very well have been able to gain angles from that.
you can't win them all, especially if it's a spit driver with a clue.
you did everything i would have, altho on that 2nd merge i'd have been trying to avoid giving him a shot, but that's not always possible.
extend out and rev is only a jousting when one keeps trying for that HO-shot. i'd have probably went up again, and if the spit did the same, we might do a few turns at which point if i had not gained, or was losing, angles, i'd try to extend again for a rinse wash repeat until one of us managed to get the other.
and no... the la7 guns are no where near as accurate over distance as the hispanos.
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Thanks Shane.....I keep thinking on the second merg going vert with a spit is a bad tactic. Keep thinking by that point the spit might be smart enough to use its turining ability to pull on my tail if I go up. I would in a spit if I had a LA7 that close and committed.
Will give it a try. Just hate getting nailed by a spit with non of his freinds around. Most other planes I can work onto their 6 1 vs. 1 now. Exceptions have been the AH 100 top aces. I'm working on you guys. Just don't blink with me around,,,I'll be there soon.
Thought so with the 20mm's. He fired from 1200 out and clipped my rudder. I useually wait till 900-800 on merg and 150-250 from rear and angles. I get killed alot on HO waiting till under 1200 to shoot. Guess a lead curtin from 1200 out works better than trying to point aim. Mostly why I try to evade HO and get angles.
-bustr-
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how wierd is this
flyin in ma days ago in my spit9. saw some guys fightin out over the wate. 2 good and 1 bad.by the time i got there both goods where dead. nme la7 low. i have all advantages on him, alt, e, ammo. i make 2 bad passes, he makes me over shoot twice, after the second im goin down in flames. i was tryin way to hard. text buffer says"shane shot you down"
dont get too excited shane, i suk in fighters
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If you ignore Shane's verbal color and watch only his actions, you have found skill and experience that is worth tapping into.
I have watched Shane .....and been soundly swatted by him. He never really worked at it. I just gave him the openings to defeat me with. It was frustrating to go back over the films and watch. I was never any threat to him during the engagements.
I want to get good enough that he might teach me how to setup others to give me the openings when I want them. Thats when you take on 2 or more and win. Right now he showed me how to take advantage of most obvious mistakes many in AH make all the time.
-bustr-
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in a 2 (or more) on 1 the situation is much more fluid and basically it's SA that gets you out of it (but not always) with (kills).
are the 2 working as a pair - which is more dangerous - ? or are they basiclaly just two guys trying their best? it's all about threat assessment and making sure to always deal with the biggest threat while keeping an eye on the others and shifting targets/evasives as necessary while looking for that opening somewhere that will give you a potential kill shot.
this really only comes with time and experience. but if you take what you're learning in 1 v1's you'll find the same basic concepts will help you in those multi-con engagements.
as i mentioned it's all about SA/threat assessment and pouncing on the oppty's that present themselves.
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I'm LA7 2k lower than Spit9. I'm level 300+knts. We merg, spit is diving to me
play the E game.
altitude is not an E state. altitude is NOT an E state .
what was the spit's speed? if you were going over 300 mph the spit was probably slower then you unless he just came out of a dive. 2k difference is not much, so you probably had the same E or better.
the spit did the stupid thing and dove down on you, you did the smart thing and went up. the spit needs to pull out of the dive and up after you burning E, while you climb that silly rocket gaining E.
from now you dictate the fight, don't just pull on the stick and try to finish this in one move unless the spit pilot doesn't have a clue.
dying to a lucky shot is always possible.
Bozon
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Alt is an E state. (Where did I put those flight training books?)
You got:
Kinetic energy: speed.
Potential energy: Alt.
Stored potential energy: fuel.
Kinetic energy and potential energy can be converted vis a vis, albeit with a loss.
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You got:
Kinetic energy: speed.
Potential energy: Alt.
No GScholz, and you said it yourself.
Altitude is only PART of your energy (and not even the important part).
When a spit and an La7 meet co-alt, the La7 will most likely be going much faster then the spit, therefor having better E overall.
Bozon
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If they are co-alt as you say then alt plays little or no part in the E equation. Now if the Spit had 5K on the La7 the Spit would have a considerable E advantage. Converting the alt into speed the Spit could B&Z the La7 to death.
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Actually, a spit V with 5 K advantage on a 10k la7 would be left in the dust. There would be no fight, nor would there be a bnz fest as you're suggesting. The la7 is that fast.
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Btw...I highly respect Shane's La7. However, I respected Shane more when he was flying a P51. We had a lot of fights between his pony and my typhoon or 38. Priceless.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If they are co-alt as you say then alt plays little or no part in the E equation. Now if the Spit had 5K on the La7 the Spit would have a considerable E advantage. Converting the alt into speed the Spit could B&Z the La7 to death.
He said alt difference of about 2k.
I'm going to do something horrible, so if you're mathphobic - read no further :)
the energy per unit of mass:
E=0.5V^2+gh
engergy difference:
E2 - E1 = 0.5(V2^2 - V1^2) + g(h2 - h1)
so the energy difference is linear in altitude, but goes like the difference in the square of the speeds.
let say 2000 feet difference average speed of the two planes is slightly over 300 mph, what speed difference is needed?
2*g(h1 - h2) = (V2 + V1)(V2 - V1)
inserting the numbers in correct units you get:
v2 - v1 ~ 100mph.
might sound like alot but level La7 might easily go at 370mph and a recently climbed spit would not be much faster then 270mph.
Careless spit dives, goes faster then it's max level speed and pull hard G to bring guns around - looses E.
La7, goes diagonaly up, uses it's great climbrate and gains E.
Bozon
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Yes, but I am not arguing the likely outcome of the fight. I'm arguing your statement that alt is not an E state, which it clearly is as your math (argh my eyes!) shows. HAD the Spit got 5K the outcome could have been very different. You even say it yourself; "La7 goes diagonaly up, uses it's great climbrate and gains E", how can it gain E by climbing if alt is not E?
Spit IX TheManx, not V. (Incidently the Spit IX is one of the "magic" planes that never compress or shake in this game. It is also the quickest diver for some reason.)
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Yes, but I am not arguing the likely outcome of the fight. I'm arguing your statement that alt is not an E state, which it clearly is as your math (argh my eyes!) shows.
OK, if I failed to make myself clear:
Alt IS "energy".
Alt is NOT "energy state".
energy state is a combination of alt and kinetic energy. One without the other doesn't mean a thing.
And I agree that the spit IX is a very good diver.
Bozon
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Seems we got our terminology mixed up there. All is good then. :)
EDIT: Btw, are you saying that if I hang on my prop stalling at 20K/0mph that I have no E, and no E advantage over a con at 5K/400mph for instance?
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Gentelmen.....the spit approched me as a dot outside of icon range. We had that time untill 4800d when I began to dive. He was in a dive from about 5300d. 1200d I pulled up and over. He leveled out to make his turn. I know this because I watched the turn while inverted to observe him before rolling over level, then diveing for the next go.
I have a bit of a misconception about fiteing spits with an LA7. I did not think the second vertical was advisable because most spit pilots would turn up my tail and kill me. I've been a bit shy. So I have been doing the jousting garbage wining 50-50 on lucky shooting or running. <--sorry Shane:(
I did discover if I can get a N1K into a turn fite at 15k, 1 notch flaps will give me a slight turning edge. Idea for another thread.
-bustr-
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Btw, are you saying that if I hang on my prop stalling at 20K/0mph that I have no E, and no E advantage over a con at 5K/400mph for instance?
First, you have E (potential only).
about E advantage:
adjusting to feet and mph units:
38.4*(h1-h2) = v2^2 - v1^2
so it seems the con needs about 760mph to counter that alt.
But one must be carefull with these energy figures. For extreem values they don't tell much (how would a plane 15k up will engage?).
Bozon
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Originally posted by bustr
As I come over the top I see the spit turning left up to meet me. He dove for a while longer before his turn. We pass I'm nose down. Then I pull back at 45% to left up and over. I cannot get the spits tail. I dive run, 2.4d out I reverse, we close and he HO quarter angles and gets my rudder on next pass.
-bustr-
Seems to me that by dictating the actual angle of the 1st merge you have optimised stuff considerably............ a more cautious spit may have nosed up earlier at say 45 degrees and entered the looping contest he would surely win.
I have the same problem as you have described above.... obviously having dictated the angle of the 1st merge you do not want your opponent dictating the 2nd........... seems to me that your goal is a degree of separation (and angle) where you have manouverability and your opponent does not. (or he has less)
Hence you hope to place him in high G or low e whilst you gain angle.
Theory is fine and practice is hard. He is nose up with good vision (he can roll in the vertical to maintain vision)and any e loss / high G manouver is already passed for him.
hence the agressive move here would have been to chop throttle and pull nose vertical (max G & black out)the moment you went thru first merge then immediately max throttle over the top.
Down side is that this cost you e but you will/should have the better angles advantage........... the judgement issue is how much e can you sacrifice in this manouver......
I have some film of Shane and this is the balance he has off pat IMO. He will also add some degree of angle in the separation after merge inducing his victim to add some manouver out of the vertical whilst he has adjusted for it in the vertical.
The lack of this is my greatest ACM weakness. In films I have of Urchin, Shane and Lazer I note that I always misjudged their e state. Continiously finding that whilst I thought I had scrubbed too much e they infact had scrubbed even more to achieve superiority of angle.
Further when I go agressive as described above the rate of e loss (e loss/sec) is large and so judgement of duration is critical.I most often cock it up.