Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: funkedup on June 15, 2003, 02:20:01 AM
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Check out the latest issue of Air and Space. It discusses the Soviet evaluation of captured F-86 aircraft. One of the NII engineers details how he was politically denounced for declaring the F-86's LCOS superior to the reflector sight in the MiG-15.
I think this might explain some of the "interesting" Soviet performance data for western aircraft that is used by Oleg Maddox and the like...
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Could you post a link or was this article hardcopy only?
Thanks
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Who would have thunk that the commies might lie!!!??!
NKVD visiting lavochkn factory
"Unca Joe doesnt like the performance on the la7 into the gulag with you!"
Return visit 2 days later.
"Unca Joe is pleased with the improvments on the la7"
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But Soviet Union is generally known as the world wide truth, how could they come up with improper test data?
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Who would have thunk that the commies might lie!!!??!
NKVD visiting lavochkn factory
"Unca Joe doesnt like the performance on the la7 into the gulag with you!"
Return visit 2 days later.
"Unca Joe is pleased with the improvments on the la7"
yeah whereas Britain and the USA NEVER utter a single white lie do we? yeah its just the commies who fail to tell the truth.
lol
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Hi Funked,
>Check out the latest issue of Air and Space. It discusses the Soviet evaluation of captured F-86 aircraft. One of the NII engineers details how he was politically denounced for declaring the F-86's LCOS superior to the reflector sight in the MiG-15.
I'm sure it was OK for the engineers to record all the data that shows the F-86's LCOS to be superior. The "criminal" step merely was to make the final conclusion that the F-86's LCOS was indeed superior.
This way of thinking isn't unique to the Stalinistic system - I'm sure Galilei would have recognized it instantly :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Well thats why you should never trust russians- at least for the next hundred years till they commie filth generation is fully gone. You see they combine the traditional russian inferiority complex, taken with some usual slavic boastfulness, and mix it with it some good old communist truth concepts and the end result is - well we all know just ask Boroda...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well thats why you should never trust russians- at least for the next hundred years till they commie filth generation is fully gone. You see they combine the traditional russian inferiority complex, taken with some usual slavic boastfulness, and mix it with it some good old communist truth concepts and the end result is - well we all know just ask Boroda...
hahahahahaha....well said Grun
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well thats why you should never trust russians- at least for the next hundred years till they commie filth generation is fully gone. You see they combine the traditional russian inferiority complex, taken with some usual slavic boastfulness, and mix it with it some good old communist truth concepts and the end result is - well we all know just ask Boroda...
Tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back--it causes stress and future heart problems.
BTW, I have to agree, except that I don't know if 100 years is long enough. These guys still want to dominate the world, IMO.
shubie
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I'm not sure that all of our readers understand the seriousness of political denunciation under Stalin's rule. There may have been political pressures on scientists in the US or UK, but nothing like the brutal mechanisms of the communist bureaucracy. I give the NII-VVS findings no more credence than I would give a comic book.
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--- wind up Boroda talking tin doll ---
--- sound of spring winding up, gears ratcheting ---
--- set doll on smooth fllor surface ---
--- watch him roll accross the floor singing to tune of soviet anthem---
Stalin was greatsest russian leader of all time, he was great father to his people - who all loved him! Praise Stalin!
:D
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Originally posted by funkedup
I'm not sure that all of our readers understand the seriousness of political denunciation under Stalin's rule. There may have been political pressures on scientists in the US or UK, but nothing like the brutal mechanisms of the communist bureaucracy. I give the NII-VVS findings no more credence than I would give a comic book.
Off to the GULAG with you!
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Originally posted by funkedup
Check out the latest issue of Air and Space. It discusses the Soviet evaluation of captured F-86 aircraft. One of the NII engineers details how he was politically denounced for declaring the F-86's LCOS superior to the reflector sight in the MiG-15.
I think this might explain some of the "interesting" Soviet performance data for western aircraft that is used by Oleg Maddox and the like...
Were his findings re written to put a better spin on the MiG?..........
How many folk here work for companies that actually (once you have worked thru the veneer of your own propaganda) do not make the best product on the market (your product technicians will know this)......... would they be critised if they published the data proving it?
RE GPW VVS AC
early aircraft under TSagi design acceptance trials (Lagg 3, Yak1, Mig3) were hugely misrepresented as meeting performance criteria they could not meet. Planes were stripped of essential items to get them thru speed and climb tests and then had tanks added to meet range and endurance tests.
This was revealed when the finished aircraft reached the VVS. The head engineer in charge of the acceptance trials was executed.
After which the emphasis was on accuracy. Hence whilst there will have been all sorts of media propaganda the actual test documents of 42 and onwards are very accurate........... their lives depended upon it!
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Hehe, GH, i really like to listen to stories and opinions from people "raped by evil comminist regime". :D C'mon, tell us again, how did it feel? Did you just relax and enjoy? :D
Funked, I really want to read the whole story.
It seems very strange to me. Usually engineers could speak their opinion about captured devices. Soviet system was pragmatic. Otherwise - why bother tryng to capture things like G-compensator from F-86, when everyone knew that the true Communist, armed with the theory of Marx-Lenin-Stalin, can easily withstand higher G-loads then an imperialist mercenary using bourgeous technoligy? :p
It seems to me that as usual you interpret the story without having the idea of the real situation. Things that happened here were very strange by Western standards. The same motivations and human conflicts, but dressed into absolutely different political and social clothes, totally alien to you.
BTW, didn't US pilots call that thing a "gum sight"? ;) Plus MiGs recieved a radio warning device that detected Sabres range meter, a thing that can be called an "automatic 6-call" :)
This was revealed when the finished aircraft reached the VVS. The head engineer in charge of the acceptance trials was executed.
That could be the truth, but I doubt that he really was executed. The main idea of Stalinism was responcibility. People in charge had enormous power, and enormous responcibility.
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Responsibility does not mean executing or jailing enginners who give bad reports or make errors in design. Though I doubt youll see the difference.
Boroda its really hard to relax and enjoy the first few times, though I dont doubt it has become very easy and even pleasant for you over the years....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Responsibility does not mean executing or jailing enginners who give bad reports or make errors in design. Though I doubt youll see the difference.
If a person makes vital decisions - then his life is a matter of his responsibility.
Fortunately it didn't apply to engineers. Unfortunately it doesn't apply to brass hats any more.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boroda its really hard to relax and enjoy the first few times, though I dont doubt it has become very easy and even pleasant for you over the years....
Grun, I lived "under communism" for quite a long time. You didn't. More to say, you are so proud that you were "raped" and think that this fact gives you the right to judge the things you don't understand and never even experienced that it makes me think you really wanted to be raped.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Grun, I lived "under communism" for quite a long time. You didn't. More to say, you are so proud that you were "raped" and think that this fact gives you the right to judge the things you don't understand and never even experienced that it makes me think you really wanted to be raped.
And of course he does not see the difference just as I suspected....
As for the quote above:
Ladies and Gentlemen, here is an excellent example of communist brainwashing... Somehow my criticizm of communism is in some way a wish to live under it. You see in his abused mind it's impossible that communism come come out looking bad in any way whatsoever....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And of course he does not see the difference just as I suspected....
As for the quote above:
Ladies and Gentlemen, here is an excellent example of communist brainwashing... Somehow my criticizm of communism is in some way a wish to live under it. You see in his abused mind it's impossible that communism come come out looking bad in any way whatsoever....
GH, your opinion about "communism" is worth nothing, because you have no idea of what you speak about. And, in fact, you sound just like a righteous comsomol member at the meeting. People like you turn your country into a meaner and worse version of stagnant USSR of the 70s.
I love your generalisations about Russian people. You are so full of nationalistic/cultural/religious hatred that you should be displayed in a zoo. People from Orthodox nations are untermenschen for you, and your justification of genocide in Srpska Krajna proves it.
I still want some details of Funked's story. Is this magazine availible on the Web somewhere?...
If NII VVS was supposed to meet political requirements in their research - we couldn't stand a chance in competing with the enemy.
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Originally posted by Boroda
This was revealed when the finished aircraft reached the VVS. The head engineer in charge of the acceptance trials was executed.
That could be the truth, but I doubt that he really was executed. The main idea of Stalinism was responcibility. People in charge had enormous power, and enormous responcibility.
Why do you not think he was executed? I would have executed him on the spot! If I learned that I had just equipped my entire airforce with crappy planes in a time of war just because some bureaucrat faked the tests to keep his job, I would have thrown his mangled decapitated head on the floor of the TSagi test department and yelled "NEVER AGAIN!" !
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Whats your obession with thinking that I have anything against the Orthodox church? But of course that just shows that you have a persecution complex too, though one could argue that generally fits into your inferiority complex.
And yea Boroda Russians do have an inferiority complex because they were excluded from "Europe' and felt backwards and as you so loving say of your dear Stalin had to be forced to catch up industrially and technologically , everyone knows that just as much as you deny it.
And frankly you know nothing about communism because as all of us have seen you say nothing but good about communism. It's interesting how you are so happy to bring out this "rape" metaphor - because thats exatly what you are, you're mind-fukd as mind-fukd as they come brainwashed from birth to not think, question and just eat it all up like some robotic drone. Its obvious in every one of your posts, stal was god, soviet russia greatest at everything, T-72 has equal armor all artound and is better than any tank in world, stalin was greatest leader, and so on and so on...
But thats OK Boroda, I dont wanna take that away from you as I'm sure these fanatsies of greatness are the only things that make you happy in your sad life...
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The magazine website is airspacemag.com
I'm surprised more of you guys (the yanks anyways) don't get it. It's one of the best publications out there for aviation history nerds.
I will scan the article this weekend.
I'll also scan the article on the reverse engineering of the B-29 if I can find that one. Both articles show (in the words of the engineers who were there) how politics and saving one's skin motivated soviet engineers and scientists more than truth and progress.
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Boroda- I don't have anything against Russians in general. As a matter of factI know a Russian chick I wouldn't mind going out with :)
I just hate communism. Pure and simple. I hate Lenin (his mind was affected by syphilis just like Hitler's , and he was sent by Germans to USSR to cause problems during WWI), I hate Stalin- he killed more of his own people than Hitler, I hate NKVD, Comisars and the "scythe and hammer" symbol you use as an avatar. I don't think an unskilled worker that hasn't even finished high-school should make as much as an engineer or doctor, and I DO wan't to get rich someday, and I would defend my PROPERTY with a gun if needed.
Yeah baby, Capitalism rules!!!
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While there may be truth in these stories, I wouldn't underestimate the Russians. Afterall, they made Il-2 (the sim).
Also, I can easily imagine how political authorities would look upon negative reports made by engineers. It was similar in my country, in many areas.
On the other hand, engineers were walking on very thin ice. If they gave accurate but negative reports, they got punished again.
So, in the end, they had no other choice but to make the best planes and come with true test results ;).
P.S.
Doesn't anyone remember that movie about Bradley fighting vehicle, starring Kelsey Grammer ?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why do you not think he was executed? I would have executed him on the spot! If I learned that I had just equipped my entire airforce with crappy planes in a time of war just because some bureaucrat faked the tests to keep his job, I would have thrown his mangled decapitated head on the floor of the TSagi test department and yelled "NEVER AGAIN!" !
Again, how much was true in the Bradley fighting vehicle movie ?
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Originally posted by Hristo
Again, how much was true in the Bradley fighting vehicle movie ?
I have no idea. Why do you ask?
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I don't think anyone has the luxury of manipulating numbers to their own objectives, when your whole country is on the brink of destruction. Nowadays even a kid can go look up a good book and think "hmm.. was Germany stupid? They were fighting two fronts, and it's plain stupidity. They can never win!" ;) , however, this strategical analysis may not have been so convincing when the German military is "currently" marching to Crimea, Ukraine and started to surround Leningrad and Stalingrad.
Thus, I think use of data in the sense of propaganda and military use, should be differentiated. In that sense, I think Hohun's right - they would spew all sorts of fantasies to the public, or even send up 'optimistic' reports to their superiors - but the people directly in charge of departments concerning intelligence, R&D, and aircraft construction probably all knew the truth, and made adequate decisions and developments according to it. ('boss guys' are always clueless, whether be it the Soviet system or the capitalist one :D the 'Dilbert' irony of it!)
Frankly, I think the 'false data' accusations is about as equal as the over claimings of planes shot down and destroyed by bomber gunners of the West. In the 'inner circle', there's always a different truth to tell.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Again, how much was true in the Bradley fighting vehicle movie ?
Ahh yes that POS HBO trash.. Although it was fun to watch, the whole idiotic premise of the movie was the shocking idea that indeed the Bradley is less well armored and less survivable than an MBT... Ooooo!
:rolleyes:
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Did anyone notice that the British are experimenting with "plastic" tanks though not MBTs yet. A Chobhan type, of fibreglass instead of ceramics for now and later to be of carbon-fibre.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
[B Frankly, I think the 'false data' accusations is about as equal as the over claimings of planes shot down and destroyed by bomber gunners of the West. In the 'inner circle', there's always a different truth to tell. [/B]
One huge difference would be that no American bomber gunner was ever SHOT for making an excessive claim, or sent to prison.
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Just like Soviet bomber gunners.
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Hi Kweassa,
>In that sense, I think Hohun's right - they would spew all sorts of fantasies to the public, or even send up 'optimistic' reports to their superiors - but the people directly in charge of departments concerning intelligence, R&D, and aircraft construction probably all knew the truth, and made adequate decisions and developments according to it.
I think it was an important part of Stalin's system that he guarded himself against fake information from subordinates. Hitler on the other hand tended to fire anyone who told him what he didn't want to hear, even if it was the truth he'd have needed to make adequate decisions.
How dangerous it was to talk about inconvenient truths under Stalin probably depended on the context, and on other factors which in their entirety could be called "luck" ;-)
When a number of Soviet fighter aces was decorated in December 1941, their division commander gave them a (propaganda) speech about the great performance of the Soviet fighter types.
Then, the fighter pilots were asked to talk about their combat experience. Pokryshkin was among the decorated pilots, and comparing the MiG-3 to the Me 109, he stated that the MiG was overly heavy, unmanoeuvrable at low altitudes and underarmed. He concluded by stating he was confident that the Soviet designer would quickly come up with new, improved machines - which of course was a diplomatic way of demanding just that.
It became immediately evident that his comments were considered unpatriotic, and apparently, his frankness earned him an entry in his file marking him as a troublemaker. No direct action was taken against him, but it wasn't forgotten either. Later, he got a commander he couldn't get along with at all, and this commander got him expelled from the Communist Party by a court martial decision based on incident where Pokryshkin got into a brawl with drunken officers. I'm sure the earlier black spot in his files counted against him!
The expulsion later was revoked, but it seems Pokryshkin's file still was blemished. After becoming a recognized and highly decoreated ace, he visited Yakovlev, and Yakovlev (who was 100% Stalin's man) listened to Pokryshkin's tactical ideas - which included the notion that fighters should have heavier armament than the Yak-3 - but wouldn't even answer. That's why Pokryshkin's regiment flew Lavochkins in late war - in distinct contrast to Jakovlev, Lavochkin had been delighted to discuss tactics with Pokryshkin, and accepted his ideas for the improvement of fighter aircraft.
What's the conclusion from this? I don't really know - maybe it just shows us that reality was highly complex :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Just like Soviet bomber gunners.
I thought Soviets used a lot of prisoners as gunners .
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Very interesting information on Pokryshkin, HoHun. Thanks. :)
I remember reading somewhere that Pokryshkin was very fond of the P-39, and still flew his personal Airacobra while the rest of his regiment was re-equipping with La-7s. Any idea if that part was true?
I also wonder if Pokryshkin's substantial combat time in P-39s had any influence on his ideas regarding adequate fighter armament. Sure, the 37mm was low-velocity, but the results when it hit would be one heck of an advertisement for Big Guns. ;)