Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKcurly on June 16, 2003, 12:56:39 AM
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When one side is low in numbers, nothing is more aggravating to watch a La7 dive from 10k to kill a fuel structure. You know what's going to happen -- he's going to kill the fuel and he's also going to pancake.
When your side is low in numbers, it's difficult to keep your fields defended, not to mention protecting the field's resources.
Along the same line of thinking, nothing is worse than losing a field near HQ -- you know there's going to be a steady stream of low altitude buffs and 110s and eventually, they will kill HQ.
Why not do this? Place three manable 5 inch guns at small fields; four manable 5 inch guns at medium fields and 7 manable 5 inch guns at large fields. At HQ, place ten manable 5 inch guns.
This does several things. 1) It gives a reason to fly buffs at high altitude near enemy airfields; 2) It gives airfields and HQ increased protection; and most importantly 3) you can defend your field against suicide dweebs.
A deflection shot on a fast moving 2.5k con isn't a "gimme." If they come straight at you, yes, it's an easy shot. A slow moving target at 2.5k is dead meat.
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Why not do this? Place three manable 5 inch guns at small fields; four manable 5 inch guns at medium fields and 7 manable 5 inch guns at large fields. At HQ, place ten manable 5 inch guns.
curly
I liked how in WB they used to have different AA guns, from .50 cal machine gun nests to the larger flak battery guns.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by TW9
I'd fly pony in to pork a field not intent on dying.. My wing would get blown off and i'd still hit my target then be called a suicide dweeb for my effort...
And you would be, so don't do it. In fact, if all of the 5" guns are manned, I don't think you could do it!
Now, what you could do is this: Fly along at 12k, slow down, roll over on your back and release 3 or 4 rockets at 7-8k. You would have a chance of surviving and with practice, you could learn to hit the guns from 7-8k.
curly
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Now, what you could do is this: Fly along at 12k, slow down, roll over on your back and release 3 or 4 rockets at 7-8k. You would have a chance of surviving and with practice, you could learn to hit the guns from 7-8k.
curly [/B]
And that would be more realistic. I read recently about a real P38 pilot who said they released from a dive at 15k, any lower and they got into heavy strife from the flak.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
And that would be more realistic. I read recently about a real P38 pilot who said they released from a dive at 15k, any lower and they got into heavy strife from the flak.
Yes, and not only that, buffs become meaningful again. It takes 2.5k dropped with some precision to kill a FH -- it's very difficult to do that with any degree of regularity.
However, I can overfly a field and pickle off 8 250s with a delay of 0.2 and I will hit the 5 incher.
I'm assuming the buff is flying at an altitude that makes hitting it with the 5 inch guns problematic.
curly
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I have never been able to hit anything (apart from the ocasional luck) with those field guns. I have NO IDEA what kind of lead is needed with those 37mm's...
If someone would be kind enough to post a film with that... I'd apreciate it.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I have never been able to hit anything (apart from the ocasional luck) with those field guns. I have NO IDEA what kind of lead is needed with those 37mm's...
If someone would be kind enough to post a film with that... I'd apreciate it.
Saw, you do understand I'm not talking about 37mm guns, right? I'm talking about the 5 inch guns with proximity fuses.
curly
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or maybe...
The amount of automatic ack at a field is determinded by how many players are logged on for that particular country. Maybe the smaller country gets extra auto ack near their fuel. ? Just a thought.
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Sorry Curly, I shouldn't post with that 1st coffee mug in my hand :D
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There is a mannable 88 mm Flak in the object list but it is porked and currently unusable in any terrain (causes the terrain to crash)
I would love for this to be fixed and added to many terrains..........
I would also like to get rid of the proxy fuzed 5" ordinance and cause it to be ranged by a timer adjusted by the same controls that adjust revs on AC.............
I would also like the SB's to be able to take AA as an alternative to the HE.
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Have a chat with the "The ack killed me so I'm quitting AH" crowd. I think of them every time I see a plane make 4 passes on a base with all of the ack up. Nevermind that there should be absolutely zero chance for a plane hanging around an enemy field with its ack up for more than 5 seconds...
Stupid complaints beget dweeby MA behavior.
Upping the AH ack is a solution, but then we'll have to listen to the "he ran for the ack" whines as if that is the ultimate in dweebery vs "he ignored all base ack and cons around the base as he dove in at 425 twice just to kill 2 fuel tanks... without a scratch... cause the ack has been completely dumbed down".
MiniD
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The map designers can just add more fuel tanks per field and spread them out so that 1 suicide jabo cant get more the one.
make knocking fuel down to below 50% harder. If it takes near the same effort to knock out fuel as to capture it then it may get rid of the pork and auger.
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has anyone suggested having Bombs arm at a higher Alts.
Lets say if you release from 0-2,000 yrds AGL your bombs dont arm and dont explode. So you have to drop them from higher up.
It wouldnt help the rocket attacks thou...
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Not that I'm in favor of the suicide dweebery but is the point to make field capture completely out of the question? I'm sure a number of the furballers would be in favor but this seems like a drastic change to prevent a few newbies from taking out a fuel tank.
I have little doubt that real WWII pilots used to release their bombs from 10-15k above the fields. The difference however is there was no concept of "take out half the fuel tanks and the enemy can only fuel to 50%" or "take out the FH and they won't be able to take off". Many of those planes would drop their bombs in an attempt to hit the runway. Pocket the runway and the enemy couldn't take off, the rest was just gravy. So you want realism put in the guns but let me blow up the runway to keep cons from tearing me apart on the ride home.
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Curly
I like your idea;)
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Originally posted by Batz
The map designers can just add more fuel tanks per field and spread them out so that 1 suicide jabo cant get more the one.
make knocking fuel down to below 50% harder. If it takes near the same effort to knock out fuel as to capture it then it may get rid of the pork and auger.
Agreed
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Originally posted by zipity
Not that I'm in favor of the suicide dweebery but is the point to make field capture completely out of the question? I'm sure a number of the furballers would be in favor but this seems like a drastic change to prevent a few newbies from taking out a fuel tank.
I have little doubt that real WWII pilots used to release their bombs from 10-15k above the fields. The difference however is there was no concept of "take out half the fuel tanks and the enemy can only fuel to 50%" or "take out the FH and they won't be able to take off". Many of those planes would drop their bombs in an attempt to hit the runway. Pocket the runway and the enemy couldn't take off, the rest was just gravy. So you want realism put in the guns but let me blow up the runway to keep cons from tearing me apart on the ride home.
I don't think it would make field capture impossible, rather it would require killing all manned 5 inch guns first. This can easily be done with skillful rocket attacks or level bombing.
While I'm no WW2 expert, I think bombs dellivered by fighters were usually released around 2-3k.
AH used to wreck planes that drove over bomb craters, but it was removed for some reason. I don't recall if there was a general outcry or Hitech just did for personal reasons.
curly
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AH used to wreck planes that drove over bomb craters, but it was removed for some reason. I don't recall if there was a general outcry or Hitech just did for personal reasons.
That would be worse then fuel porking. We already get 3k suicde bombers flying across the fhs. 3 bombers down a runway would ensure no one takes off.
I think if folks wanna kill themselves over and over then who cares. I think the best way is to limit their impact on the rest of us by making things like fuel porking almost as tough as field capture itself.
Add more fuel tanks spread umm out and place them in revetments so it takes damn near a direct hit to kill um.
If its gonna take 5 to 10 guys just to pork the fuel then they might as well try to capture the thing.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
AH used to wreck planes that drove over bomb craters, but it was removed for some reason. I don't recall if there was a general outcry or Hitech just did for personal reasons.
curly
This is something that Fighter Ace did and continues to do even now. The way they shut down a field is to carpet bomb with 3-5 bombers along the runway and the spawn areas. The fields in that game are a different "tile" though from the terrain so you can't set down on the ground without bending the prop or exploding. Also you can drive over the craters as long as you don't go over 8 mph in FA. Its dweeby as hell to me but in that game its a viable tactic.
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My thoughts...
2 5"ers at small fields
3 at medium
4 at large
5 at hq
with 10 at HQ, why bother flying to defend...
Make them 5 inch guns useless against GV's or better yet...
Move the maproom back to the field...
Who cares how big a field you are trying to capture is... You only have to kill 3 ack a few buildings and drop troops.
SKurj
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The building battlers of WB's favorite tactic was to the bomb the spawn points. Anyone hitting "Fly" would be killed by the craters.
Talk about dweebie.
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I've been giving this a thought..
In my opinion, the problem lies in the way people think about risk management - since there's no real price to pay for a game death, a 'risk' in a game, is only a considerable factor when it has other measures that limit or chastisize use of undesirable behaviors.
Meaning: no amount of AA will stop a kamikaze from coming in. These people mean business, and they will stop at nothing because, though they may not want to intentionally die, still they don't shy away from catastrophical results. Their main objective lies in getting the job done - not in the way how it is done.
Thus, more AA means a bit higher probability to stop incoming suicidal planes, but ultimately, it will not stop from hoardes of people continuously banging a base with their bomb-strapped lawndarting. Eventually, with numbers advantage, and the way how it is in the MA, a field will be battered into submission by suicidal freaks - just as it is now. That fact goes the same for relocating field objects.
If something is to be done, then the solution lies in the fact that something must influence the semi-suicidal pilot from within, no outside factor can do that.
Basically, AH has this nifty regulator device called 'perk points', which has no use except 'renting' some late war monster plane.
However, for an average pilot, it takes some time to accumulate them(especially if he's an Lgay or Spit or Niki user, always follwing the lemming march). People don't like losing them points they've earned.
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So, basically, how about if ALL ordnance on fighters/attackers were perked, according to 1/1000 of their payload in pounds?
For instance, a P-51D with a normal fighter config would be free, but as you add more ordnance, it becomes expensive.
Adding just the rockets(which I recall to each carry a 250lbs warhead..), would make it 0.25x10 = 2.5 perks.
Carrying just the 2k bombs, would make it 1x2 = 2 perks.
Carrying that maximum AH payload of 10 Hvar rockets and two 2000lbs bombs, would make the P-51D a 4.5 point plane - a bit cheaper than the C-hog - but still, I don't think anybody's gonna want to go crash a 4.5 point plane.
This even gets better, if one side has a large numbers advantage, because the perk multiplier will set in - 1.5 multiplier and the max load P-51D becomes woppin' 6.75 point plane.
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So the bottom line is, the more ordnance you are carrying, the more expensive the plane becomes. When people have numbers advantage, it becomes even higher in price.
If you fly carelessly as you used to do before, going head-on against every field ack there is, and crashing spectacularly on the field, soon, you're going to run out of perks. No perks? No bombs and rockets. Go strafe something.
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The trouble is, that we might need to recategorize the planes - as currently, some light/medium bombers are mixed into the fighter and attacker categories - Mosquitos and Bf110s are categorized as either fighter or attack planes. The IL-2, a simular tactical Jabo plane type, is categoried as a bomber. AFAIK, the A-20 is a bomber, but I think it also is in the attacker category too.
So I guess perking ordnance according to payload, will have to be limited to the pure fighter/bomber planes, which can immediately switch to the fighter role as their ordnance is dropped - P-51D, F6F-5, F4U-1/4, P-47D, Typhoons and etc. Other planes like Mosqitos or Bf110s, Il-2, A-20 and etc, will be free of this...
Hmmm...
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Fly 1 sortie in something else than a Spitfire, N1K2, P-51D or a La-7, get two kills and try to make it back alive.
You get about 8 perks for that. In a x1 multiplier, that'll give you 8000lbs of ordnance to use. Equivalent to 4 Typhoon runs with 2k bombs.
I don't think any n00b's gonna lose sleep because he just found out that there's actually a price to pay for being unnaturally stupid.
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Or, with small perks, using a 500lb bomb is an option for the n00b. A bomb, which actually requires a delicate direct hit to do real damage, unlike that multiple rockets+2k standard US plane loadout, which you can just spray down and influence the structure with the bomb blast and rockets scattered all over. Hey, at least he'll learn how to bomb right.
The logic dictates that the more dweebey and unwilling to learn they are, the less perks they'll have in their hands. Which would mean as time progresses and the new perk agendas settle out, the effectiveness of the massive suicidal forces, will be dwindled out, since suicidal dorks aren't gonna have any perks to strap on to enough number of bombs and rockets.
People approaching a field in a logical manner, getting prepared for a steady dive bomb process, can be stopped. What you can't stop is a Typhoon or a P-51D with bombs, that comes from 15k and plunge straight towards the field and crash immediately after release.
So if someone wants to take the best advantage of game immortality, then they can go plunge straight into the field - but it ain't gonna be for free.
Maybe perking the ordnance, may actually motivate people to learn stuff. ;)
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What's unfair about losing perks?
Jabos are supposed to knock things out, and the get the hell outta there. They should only stay around when they know a field is fully suppressed.
If someone lobs bombs, go try to strafe every plane on the ground, get engaged by hoardes of enemies, or gets caught by a well prepared interceptor - I don't see what's so unfait about that.
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I think all AA (88's included) ought to have the option of being an occupied posistion. Whenever a person leaves the gun - it would default back to auto-targeting/firing.
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kwea.. I agree.. perk the bombs. I had suggested that all bombs ove 100 lbs be perked. the value could be adjusted as needed.. I also agree that nothing will stop the talentless from augering into a target so long as they have the tools.
I also believe that manable quad 50 caliber emplacementes at every field would stop the morons.
lazs
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You could leave bomb perks off for planes like the JU 87/88 SBD, Val, TBF etc.
Charon
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I don’t like the idea of perking ordinance.
I do like the idea that you must still be alive X amount of seconds after drop in order for the damage to register.
Oh, yeah... and add more manable AA and move the map room back to the field, increase the town size by 4X and put another VH at the town.
1 More, add more fuel tanks to the fields.
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my $0.02
like the ideas of releasing high for realism ect...
but never any secondaries....?
even you miss...u dont see anything...smoke explosion nothing. atleast when I roll over, show me where I missed....
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bombs had many ways to arm themselves in WW2.
Some had tiny wind driven fuses that required a certain distance of travel in order to arm.These would mostly be dropped from high altitude.The idea being the bombs are safe for a fixed distance from the aircraft.
Some had timed fuses like Lw anti-tank fighterbombers used.A typical attack was to fly at almost ground level and drop the bomb , which would often skip along th ground right into the side of the tanks. A second or so later and the fighter would have time to clear the blast,the tank is then blown up.
Impact fuses were used by all sides with varying degrees of reliability plus theres loads of other types.
The one thing most have in common is they cant be armed whilst on the aircraft.In AH we now have a 1000 yard fuse which has already stopped any of us learning to use low altitude attacks; If we drop low in AH it either doesnt arm or if it does hit its instantanious so we are caught in the blast.Now people are suggesting 2000yard fuses?
Im all for stoppig idiots playing kamakazi but im not for doing it by making a used and real tactic impossible in AH.
I want to be able to time fuse my bombs and drop them in the ways i see described in books.I dont want to have to play it one way only because some others have ruined the fun.Theres plenty of ideas id rather have to put up with before id agree to changing the bombs again.
even the removal of any damage if you die within 10 seconds of drop is better than this 2000 yard idea.
As for manned 5" guns Id have to say for some bases and targets id be fine with it. But Id like to see the flashing 25 mile alert crap we have now changed if they are added. Its impossible now to have a surprise attack and although i accept this is to stop the constant milkrunning it still has taken away an aspect of the game i enjoyed.Catching people unawares was what warfare was all about.Its what this game is all about really.If we wanted a fair duel then the dueling arena would be full all day.Its only natural to seek an advantage over your opponent. At the moment suiciding the fuels has advantages and no disadvantage.To stop it you need to make it disadvantagous not impossible. Perking bombloads or time penalty for death or no score, anything is better than unrealistic changes to weapons etc.
PSThere actually were proximity fused shells used by the US Navy in the pacific and apparently they were never fired over land for fear the technology the fuse used would fall into Japanese hands.
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"The one thing most have in common is they cant be armed whilst on the aircraft."
I thought the kamakazi planes carried bombs that were rigged to detonate on impact. Maybe the thing to do is increase the delay fuse on all bombs but for a bit of realism offer a kamakazi plane for 100 perks. That certainly would have slowed the knits kamakazing the bish cv off v9 last night.
I really hope they don't perk the ordi, that would penalize the folks that want to fly bombers and jabo's. Adding ack and fuse adjustments could solve the problem.
On the other hand if they do perk the ordi, I hope they perk every round on every fighter. Maybe that would reduce the spray and pray tactics used by many pilots.
What I really don't understand is why the vet fighter pilots don't want a seperate fighter arena? It seems like they hate the idea of anyone attacking a base and possible ruining their fun. So instead of pushing for a fighter only arena, they keep trying to ruin the fun for the folks who like shuting down and capturing bases. AND that doesn't seem fair.
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zipity, veterans pilots don't hate the idea of attacking a field.
It's true that some like lazs, want more fighter action than other things, but main concern for many is just the fact that the would be 'field porkers', ultimately result in zillions of people dropping down to the field like a moth to the flame.
A proper way of jabo takes time and patience, as well as a SA of its own. Pilots don't drop down into something when they think they cannot survive the result of it.
However, since the ultimate goal in the MA is conquest through capture, it is so often that many of the initial factors of air combat are utterly lost and overwhelmed by the ultimate goal.
The best example is one of those large 10~15 people Typhoon missions. About half of them smash to the ground, but still they manage to take out a few stuff with them. The rest half who knows how to bomb things, can still shut down a small field by themselves - because, in the MA fighter planes carry more ordnance than most jabo planes. And, people will stop at nothing, even if it means their death, because, there is nothing here currently that can make people think twice before going into a bomb run which the results are obviously catastrophic.
When ten Typhoons move towards a field, struggling to keep a certain altitude for a safe bomb-run - they can be stopped.
Currently, when ten Typhoons see a few interceptors, think there's danger of being caught, all of them start diving straightly to the field with maximum throttle.
This would certainly bring out a low-alt low angle bombing situation which about half of those planes will not survive due to acks and enemy planes - despite the grim odds, people still commence. Only a handful of fighters with enough altitude and dive performance can stop that kind of bomb run.
They, in their full speed dive to the field, fly past all inetrceptors who cannot catch them, and then, smash into the field in a blazing kamikaze attack.
Then, they do the same thing all over again until the field is closed and capped.
The lesson here? Suicidal folks cannot be stopped. No amount of outside force can stop them. The only that stops them, is when there's a price to be paid for wreckless behavior - simply, it doesn't pay to be a unwitting pawns to massive kamikaze attacks.
So, perk the bomb loads - with the suggested 1/1000 rule, even the most heavily armed fighter bomber, is cheaper than a F4U-1C. If they're still gonna risk those 8~10 points for kamikaze, and that's fine by me. At least the defenders are gonna amass some points from the attacker's gastly behaviors.
Otherwise, if they care about points, then they'll start learning to do bombing right.
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I agree with the general theme of this thread. I am getting sick of logging on, checking the flashing bases, seeing that the spit and the p47 have already kilt the vh and deacked the base and are just waiting for some poor szott to take off. I propose a fleet like base defense. The guns are embedded with the hangars. If a a hangar goes down, you lose 1 5" and 3 20mm auto/mannable guns. etc.. Just like the fleets guns are indestructable until the ship is lost. This, may not stop the suicide jabos from trying, but it will guve some reasonable chance at kiling them before they do any damage.
My reason is this. The best fights are at fleets, there is furballs ouside of ack range, there are bombers overhead, but there is rarely any loitering , waiting for an easy vulch over the cv.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I also believe that manable quad 50 caliber emplacementes at every field would stop the morons.
lazs
Lazs, it is easy to kill a m16 with rockets and never get close enough for him to touch you. Either they would have to harden the gun emplacement or go to something which will reach out and touch a careless distant plane --- manned 5 inch shells with proximity fuses will do the trick.
Even the dumbest of the dumb quickly learns not to get close to CVs. Indeed, it's enjoyable to have a skillful group in the 5 inch gun positions and watch them make the suicide jugs/p38s/ponies/f6fs/etc pay the price AND never get their ordnance off.
curly
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Originally posted by Zippatuh
I do like the idea that you must still be alive X amount of seconds after drop in order for the damage to register.
Yeah. How often have I loved this after strafing an ack, getting killed by said ack, then getting credit for destroying the gun emplacement half a minute after the last hit on it !
LMAO !