Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Manedew on June 20, 2003, 03:14:24 PM
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Damn Patriot Act...
Don't let fear destroy us. Stop being cowards we don't need wuss laws like this!
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/coastline/columnists/la-cpt-muse20jun20,1,2054971.story
CHASING DOWN THE MUSE
Which patriots exactly does the act protect?
Catharine Cooper
"My inclination to be relieved of having to think, particularly about unpleasant facts, helped to sway the balance. In this I did not differ from millions of others. Such mental slackness above all facilitated, established and finally assured the success of the National Socialist system."
— ALBERT SPEER
In every direction I turn, my civil rights are quietly being eroded behind volumes of rhetoric. The Patriot Act stands as the most glaring of such efforts, chipping away at my personal freedom and right of privacy. On its heels, CAPPS II further degrades the promises to citizens of the United States, made by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Many have questioned, after serious review, how Congress could have passed the Patriot Act. The act itself, "To deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes," sounded logical in the heated emotional environment post Sept. 11. Passed on Oct. 25, 2001, as retaliatory energy swirled throughout the country, there was no congressional debate about any of its Sections or Titles. A brilliant and perfectly timed stroke, to implement a long-standing plan and far-reaching agenda, by those who would undermine our freedoms.
A review of the document further reveals why there was such silence. The document itself is 127 pages, and referential to prior United States Code filings. This is not a straightforward or simple read and it affects all of us. It is confusing and difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend.
Broad sweeping in its scope, the Act allows for the gathering of information from education facilities, credit facilities, financial institutions, allows for oral, wire and electronic taps, seizure of voice mail messages, without warrant, all within the framework of "suspected terrorist activities."
Basically, it allows for the gathering of the history of one's life. Section 626 further enhances their power, by " '(c) CONFIDENTIALITY — No consumer reporting agency, or officer, or employee, or agent of such consumer reporting agency, shall disclose to any person, or specify in any consumer report, that a government agency has sought or obtained access to information under subsection (a)." In other words, the government can slip into your private records without a trace. Talk about Big Brother watching you.
I'm all for shutting down terrorists, but I'm 100% against the government snooping in my e-mail and my bank account. I pay my taxes and other than that it's none of their business — unless they decide that I might be a suspect. And as noted in my last column, anyone of us can be arrested and held uncharged, under the guise of suspected terrorist activity.
Not quite satisfied with the broad scope they've already slipped through the radar screen, the administration now proposes to implement CAPPS II - Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System. This newest piece of surveillance architecture will collate into one behemoth database the following: financial records and transactions, arrest and conviction records, FBI records, DMV records, criminal convictions, civil suits, bankruptcy and divorce, property records, voter rolls, educational records, purchase records, subscription lists, telephone listings, private organizational directories, and insurance coverage.
A quick analysis of your information will provide a profile. Based on your risk assessment you will be tagged green for safe passage, yellow for further interrogation, or red banned from the flight. This decision will be made by a ticket taker viewing your personal files without your consent, and on information assumed to be free of errors. Profiling at its best.
Freedom of privacy has been lost in the search for the airline attacker who, with even a modicum of intelligence, will know how to elude the system before it is operational. The losers are you and I, millions of innocent citizens, who continue to be sold out by our representatives in the name of a fear they cannot contain. The strength of this mighty nation has been the freedoms that we extol to the rest of the world. Why are we letting them slip away? Why is our government so afraid of us that they would eliminate the foundations upon which our nation was founded?
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• CATHARINE COOPER is a member of the City Open Space Committee. She can be reached at ccooper@cooperdesign.net or (949) 497 5081.
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what does the article say? I'm not registering on their site just to read it. :p
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That article is an absolutely grotesque mischaracterization of CAPPSII. Period.
Go do some research on your own, read the privacy notices, read the law, study up on the people involved. You'll see that, once again, the LA Times is printing garbage on it's opinion pages.
:D
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Manedew: Damn Patriot Act...
Don't let fear destroy us. Stop being cowards we don't need wuss laws like this!
[Devils Advocate]
Stop being cowards, we don't need wussy attachments to personal rights and liberties. Don't let fear of Patriot Act keep you from embracing Big Brother socialist police state.
[/Devils Advocate]
miko
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If I'm not mistaken, the expanded search abilities granted under the Patriot act are only in effect if a person or group is "suspected of terrorist activities."
So it all boils down to.... how much should we trust our government to do what is right instead of what is politically prudent regarding our personal liberties?
As much as I love my country, my answer is "not much".
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If I'm not mistaken, the expanded search abilities granted under the Patriot act are only in effect if a person or group is "suspected of terrorist activities."
So it all boils down to.... how much should we trust our government to do what is right instead of what is politically prudent regarding our personal liberties?
As much as I love my country, my answer is "not much".
You are another crappy American.
Embrace your government daddy. Ashcroft only spanks bad people.
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Originally posted by Furious
You are another crappy American.
Embrace your government daddy. Ashcroft only spanks bad people.
Ooohh...respectfully disagree, furious. I think a healthy distrust of authority is a wonderful thing. So did the founding fathers.
I just realized that your post was probably a troll...ya got me.
shubie
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We don't need no steenking government. Guns for all and let the fastest draw prevail. ;)
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terriorests are in no way threat to amerika, it's just redicukles
( big brother caught one trying to blow up the Brooklyn bridge)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If I'm not mistaken, the expanded search abilities granted under the Patriot act are only in effect if a person or group is "suspected of terrorist activities."
So it all boils down to.... how much should we trust our government to do what is right instead of what is politically prudent regarding our personal liberties?
As much as I love my country, my answer is "not much".
Ok then MT, I'm all ears and waiting to hear your suggestions of what is right. Don't just complain, offer some feedback. How should we handle the situation? We don't need this act, what do you think we should do?
Les
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Great !!
I count 9 suspects in this thread :D
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midnight Target: If I'm not mistaken, the expanded search abilities granted under the Patriot act are only in effect if a person or group is "suspected of terrorist activities."
Sure, just like in "regulate interstate commerce" in the US Constitution regulate once ment "make regular, remove obstacles", interstate ment "between states" and commerce ment "exchange of goods, trade".
Now regulate means "totally control", "ban", "tell what to do", interstate means every last detail of life inside and the states and ommerce means "all activity, production, personal life, customes, morals and personal preferences."
miko
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Originally posted by rshubert
I think a healthy distrust of authority is a wonderful thing. So did the founding fathers.
There is nothing healthy about the distrust of authority presented by several users of this BB. Combine that with an abnormal and intense desire to be armed and what have you...the US perhaps...?
Say after me now
"There is nothing healthy with armed people suffering from Paranoid schizophrenia"
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Originally posted by Leslie
Ok then MT, I'm all ears and waiting to hear your suggestions of what is right. Don't just complain, offer some feedback. How should we handle the situation? We don't need this act, what do you think we should do?
Les
IMHO nothing in the Patriot act would have been necessary to thwart the 9-11 attacks. In fact, enforcing existing imigration laws and better communication between authorities probably could have done the job.
So why do we need it Les? I'm all ears.
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Time will tell, as far as the effectiveness of the Patriot Act. I agree it would not be needed now, if immigration laws had been strictly enforced. It is my understanding, this act facilitates communication between the various law enforcement and security/intelligence agencies. It also makes their job easier to accomplish when dealing with foreign terrorist entities.
There are provisions in the act specifically dealing with the civil liberties of American citizens, and to ensure these civil liberties are not unconstitutionally abused.
I place my faith that the integrity, wisdom and level-headness of Congress will continue to prevail.
Les
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The point is it's not needed.... we'll never be 100% safe .. your dreaming if you think so ..... "Tower's" will keep falling as long as we are human. Osma this, Osma that... anyone remember Tim McVehey (however ya spell it).
On this basis and much more I say ... stop being cowards!.... Be 'men', Be brave ... we don't need to spy on our neihbors to be safe.
John9001 meantions a foiled attempt? In NYC?..... Where is the money this administration promised NYC and many other cities after 9/11. Where!? Last I heard they hadn't seen dime 1 they were promised of for local terrorist protection(though my reading has been down in last month, I must admit; maybe they've got the money by now :rolleyes: )
My point is, where do you want to live in some Brave New World where everything is 'safe'? Or, are we willing to take the risk, a risk inherient to the universe. Everything around us is within 'imeadeaite' danger at all moments in exsistance. How do we know a singularity(black hole) might not 'float' by in 10 days... and suck our whole solar system in? We really don't ..... or a volcano could pop up underneath you. Or you could be mailing a letter and get blowen up by some wanna-be una-bomber; His shabbely made bomb you just blew up as you droped the letter in the box. Or you get Carjacked and shot. The point is realtive safety is all you can ask for ... and that is what we have. We don't need them spying on our libraries....our finances, etc etc .... When did 'innocent until proven gultiy', and 'probable cause'- turn to mean pre-emptive searches of citizens.
Look at the Congo right now, we don't have it bad... something like 3 million killed in last 5 years. Why don't we care about them ... why didn't we care about Rwanda. Anyway off topic :),
we are safe already ... we don't need stupid Laws like the Patriot Act.
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You are correct. We could all get killed by lightening. But, does that mean we should not seek shelter during a lightening storm? If there is another successful terrorist attack and if it is discovered that the government, which has an obligation to protect the common good, did not do everything possible to discover and prevent it, then who are you going to blame? It's the old adage, once burned, twice shy, or fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Oh and, as opposed to just being rediciulously brave about lightening and random acts of murder, hoping the odds don't catch up to us, do you have any concrete suggestions about how we might fight terrorism, at least make it harder for them to attack us. Or, since it will be hard to do that while at the same time, protecting the very civil liberties that make this country what it is, should we just be brave and let them attack all they want. Tell that to the over 3,000 families.
You say we don't need the Patriot Act. You say all we need to do is to enforce exisitng immigration laws. That is totally incorrect. In fact, several terrorists might have been kept out. but in fact, if you study the information available, most of the dead 19 were here legally. So, obviously, something needed to change.
BTW, please tell us the language in the Patriot Act that allows what you suggest are preemptive searches. And also, tell us how much do you really know about terrorist activity patterns. Do you know that they can be differentiated from normal innocent activity patterns. Do you know anything about pre-event indicators or warning signs, or I & W? Do you know that the activity patterns discovered of the Unabomber, and McVeigh and Nichols are discernible and have been used to ferret out others who would commit terrorist acts.
It isn't innocent acitivity that is being watched. It is suspect activity that is being uncovered.
I envy you your bravery, sir. But, I for one, will not feel very good at all when your brand of bravery gets my family murdered when it could have been prevented.
I've said it before, and it is still true. The only people that have to worry about the Patriot Act are terrorists.
Have a nice day!:D