Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: leonid on November 16, 1999, 06:33:00 AM
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Buff Killer Supreme
I was checking out the kill stats on the scoring page for Beta Tour 2 and came up with a surprising figure: the La-5FN has the best kill to death ratio(KDR) vs. the B-17G! With 43 kills to 14 deaths, that gives it a KDR of 3.071. Number two and number three are:
2. Fw 190A-8 - 325:107, 3.037.
3. N1K2 - 123:43, 2.860.
The worst buff killer, so far, is the Bf 109G-10 at 59:44, 1.341.
Bf 109 Pilot Quality Declining?
I've noticed that while never a strong performer with the other fighters, the Bf 109G-10 was enjoying an advantage against the P-51D in Beta Tour 1. In the present tour, however, this is no longer the case, since the Mustang already has the advantage in kills against the Messerschmitt. The only conclusion I can draw is that the messer pilot quality has dropped, since though it is a superb fighter, it is not the most intuitive...
AH Spitfire not quite the Dweebfire of Brand W
Another aircraft that has taken a drop in KDR this tour is the Spitfire IX. Though it still enjoys an advantage against all present fighters the margin has narrowed considerably. At present, the discrepency in kills is in single digits with the La-5FN and Fw 190A-8, and very low double digits with the N1K2.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Interesting numbers Leonid (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think there are 3 factors that effect this greatly.
1.) Pilot Quality
2.) Pilot Quality
and of course
3.) Pilot Quality (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The La5's success doesn't suprise me, because usually only good experienced pilots fly it. A newbie in a La5 is a quickly dead newbie.
The 190 and N1K2 are obviously good buff killers just for the reason that they can kill it quickly and are exposed to return fire less.
The decline in 109 success, I would attribute to more pilots trying to move out of the dweebfire. <Salute> to them, and I hope they stick too it. Even though it is a much less intuitive aircraft and it will be a difficult transition.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Certainly, 190 has the most potential for buff killing. 30mm pods are even overkill, IMHO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Heavy 109 is close, as well as Niki.
30mm 109 is surprisingly good for buff hunting (got 20+ B-17s with no loss of 109, just by using 30mm hits in frontal areas of B-17)
What surprises me is the ability of P-51D to take on bombers effectively.
Also, no plane is effective in dead six attacks. Only exception might be WGr21 rockets, fired from outside effective gun range. Anyone used them effectively, please ?
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I like the La5, a lot. I'll almost always take it a hop or two a night, but one thing it has against it is a light punch. Yes, I know those are 20mm's, but the ammo load is light and it is the lightest armed craft of the set. If my gunnery was up to snuff I could make that light load count... best I've managed in the La5 is a 3-kill sortie.
On the other hand it is relatively easy to survive in an La5... what you can't outrun you can outturn, and vice versa. It's the 3rd fastest climber. A nice all-rounder! Just wish it had room for two 50's... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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The Buff killing numbers don't surprise me. You could get a similar ranking just by taking any one of those planes in their most popular loadouts (I'm guessing sturmbock for the 190A8 and 1x30mm, no gondolas for the 109G10), hang on the dead six of a buff, and see what happens. The 109 is a small plane, and it takes practice to hit with the mk108. Remember also, we're seeing pilots composed mostly of veterans who're willing to play an unfinished product if its FM has potential, and folks who make their living playing freebies (not mutually exclusive groups, btw). These pilots as a whole have a lot of experience. So the spit doesn't do as well. Oh yeah, and the limited fuel might have something to do with it too.
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I kill 17's quite readily in my P-51, usually in two quick passes, if I have any altitude advantage. A low closure speed six attack is suicide.
Two 4-10 or 8-2 passes, the first being the set-up pass to get the 17 into "Otto Pilot" making the 17 fly straight and level. The second pass, a dance on the 17's head at max range and then sliding off down a wing as I hit guns convergence range.
IMO, the P-51 does not have the punch for HO 17 kills. Guns firing time is too short and not enough big hunks of lead fly out.
Mino
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Dinger, I've been trying for years to make a living flying freebies, but the pay doesn't keep up with the cost of inflation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Kier - lets lobby for La-7 then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I mean, extra 23mm does qualify as a good sub for a couple of 50 cals, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And lets also say that La's had 450 miles range, not 10 minutes endurance from 100 fuel as we have now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)...
p.s. Prolly a daft question but am I the only guy who hasn't flown a Spit?
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Lynx:
We oughta start lobbying for 1:1 fuel burn rate. The current sittuation is rediclous!
Right now a single B-17 can ( ? ) in effect 'close' several fields by disabling fuel to < 50%. Now how is that for a superbomber? With 1:1 rate 50% or less fuel is still too little in many planes, but at least when you would get that 100% and a DT you could stay up longer than it takes to climb to altitude. The game should be more about aircombat than takeoffs-n-landings which it is now. Even the name is kind of joke 'Aces High', who has the time to climb to high alt when the fuel just vaporizes.
//fats
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Lynx,
Hehe. Nope, you're not the only one. I haven't flown a spit either. Not even offline (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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While I am not a big fan of the fuel burn modifier, I do see the reason for it.
It is the one thing that helps to keep down the number of Spitfire hordes. IE it gives you a reason to fly the historic planes with long range such as the Pony and the N1K2.
True it hurts the La5, but that is somewhat historical, it being a point defense fighter.
Now if we could just tune the durability of the Spitfire low, like in AW (which has a real world basis), it would further help to balance the plane set without artificially crippling the flight characteristics. Which none of us want.
Oh and the La7 ? I am kinda suprised that Pyro didn't do the La7 originally, but I am all for it, and think it would fit the current plane set admirably. However since we have a La already, if you want another Russian fighter lets go for the Yak-3.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Lynx,
I forgot to mention one other thing from your post. The cannons used in the wartime La-5 and La-7 were ShVAK 20mm, and for the three-cannon version, B-20. They were quite similar to the German 20mm, though actually different in design. Both used 'light' 20mm rounds of around 96g. The 23mm cannon you are referring to is the VYa 23mm cannon. This was used primarily by the Il-2 Shturmovik. This was an awesome cannon, firing hi-velocity rounds (around 700-800rds/min) of almost 200g each! Very late in the war (circa 1945) some Yak-9Us were rearmed with the following:
- one VYa 23mm, and two B-20 20mm cannons
The B-20 was a significantly smaller and lighter version of the ShVAK though every bit as powerful. Combined with the VYa, this combo gave the Yak-9U (the best Yak fighter of the war) the same destructive firepower as a Fw 190A.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Leonid
Purely by numbers, it appears that Russian guns were the best during WW2. What I would like to know is what was their reliability, ammo quality etc. like?
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Errr... They have been the best sirca since Chinese invented gunpowder and Russians decided to join the arms race (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
ShKAS - 0.3 cal MG and the most popular rearward firing gun (Il-2/10, Pe-2 etc) - was probably the fastest firing MG of all times (out of single barrel MGs firing conventional rounds). It was spitting out 1,800 highpower rounds per minute.
That's why when people see "2 forward firing 30 cal MG" they may mistakenly assume that it is not a thing to worry about - it would be... (when properly modelled) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cannons were the best - I've read somewhere that 20mm ShVAK was the best 20mm of the war and 23mm VYa-23 are still being used in ZSU-23 Shilkas (mobile AAA with 4x23mm)...
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Leonid - hmmmm.... I've always though that La-7 carried 3x 20mms OR 2x 20mm + 23mm? Wishful thinking? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anyway - even 3 20mms firing through the prop with no convergeance nonsense to worry about... I'll take it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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...and I wouldn't mind the extra hp of the engine, refined aerodynamics, and range of the La7!
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For me, 190 is the best and most survivable buff killer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (what i remember, couple times pinged once so far)
p51 vs 109, perhaps 109 pilots quality has raised, but P51 keeping its same quality because its.... do i say what (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Gee Whiz, I like to fly all the planes! Does this make me a mutant? (or is it this third arm?)
Just depends on the mood. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
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-kier-
THAT'S IT!
Use your 3rd arm to control Pan View!
Mino
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Well.....no la5 has EVER touched my b17. Of course hardly any plane can touch me (for now) at 38k. Just about the only time I actually worry about enemy planes is when I'm landing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
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Look out floo, I caught a B17 today in rookland (I think it was a biscuit one).
He was buzzing along happily at 35k or so while I was on his 8 in a Lada, around 30k or so. I lost 5K in a speed descent to get under him, pulled a zoom under him and tore off his left wing. Don't think your safe because your high!
BTW anyone else notice Lada's are flying higher nowadays? I never engage unless I am 25k or so, and I usually don't go below 5k now either. A far cry from my start in the plane when I was always T&B'ng with spitdweebs and getting snapshots.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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juzz,
To expand on what lynx has posted, the Soviet State was pretty much hard-nosed when it came to passing weapons-trials. A designer that made good, reliable weaponry that met the specifications of the state was generally going to go places. A designer that wasted too much of the state's time with cheap, poor weaponry could very well wind up in Siberia - chopping wood and carrying water. Hence, Soviet weaponry was quite reliable on the whole. If it was not completely reliable, but was of promising design, the designer would be given the chance to rectify the shortcomings before closing down the project.
lynx,
The La-7 was built out of 3 factories from Gorkii, Ulan-Ude, and Moscow. It wasn't until January 1945 that the three cannon version of the La-7(150 rounds for each cannon) went into production. Up until that time only the two cannon versions(200 rounds for each cannon) were produced.
Sorrow,
I once bagged a B-17 from over 30k while in a La-5, but it was a bit of work and luck combined. Usually our squad flies around 20k. What's nice is that if we have to go to the deck, our la-5 will only get better.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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IMO...
Leonid only tells the truth. If he says it he did it, he did it.
Mino
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I never said I was safe...I just said I've never seen a La5 where I am at 38k....P51s yes (one tried to attack me tonight in fact...ran away after I pinged him from bottom turret)...La5s no
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-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
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Hmm mino, you saying I don't tell it?
Leo: I think mine was luck. That 17 was around 35k and I was only 5 below it. he seemed unaware I was tracking him, he didn't fire on me when I zoomed under him.
What seems to help me is making my deck 30k. That way my first pass on my NME is always a boom & zoom, even on P51's. Extra speed is always a bonus IMHO. Especially since the Lada bleeds it so fast in turns.
BTW I have to say... I love the La5n. My Russian built ride is the best I have ridden. Nowadays they Macchi comes close, but only because I crave more guns.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.