Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rude on June 23, 2003, 02:07:12 PM

Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 23, 2003, 02:07:12 PM
I can understand wanting an advantage in a fight, but combined with superior numbers, why not just engage?

Seeing more and more of this style of gameplay...do what brings ya the fun, just help me understand the motivation for not engaging a lower and slower opponent please.

Thank you
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Curval on June 23, 2003, 02:20:08 PM
Rude,

Most times I take off, point my plane in the vicinity of the Cons..and then go do something else.  Alot of the time I'm at 30k before I get back.

That's my excuse..and I'm sticking to it.  ;)

Don't worry though, I blow all that alt in my first pass.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Sandman on June 23, 2003, 03:26:02 PM
If they're in a large group, they're probably not interested in a lone fighter down low. They're probably on their way to pork some airfield.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Steve on June 23, 2003, 03:49:36 PM
Rude, I actually find this to be a great source of amusement/bemusement.
I'll see a base that is being swarmed with little or no defenders present, then head over at 12 or 15k.  I'll get there and see a mass of guys vulching and generally laying waste to the base.  Then I look up and see 4 or 5 guys at 25K, maybe they'll make a half hearted attempt at me, maybe not.  I often wonder who these guys are, and just how much fun it can be to fly that high in an area where there are no opponents.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Staga on June 23, 2003, 03:52:48 PM
Was that a whine or what?
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 23, 2003, 04:10:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Was that a whine or what?


I only seek the truth brother Staga:)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Urchin on June 23, 2003, 04:29:33 PM
Superior alt, superior plane, superior numbers, if these conditions are not met you do not engage.  You spread them lips out wide and fly on.  Its the new mantra of the ***** arena.
Title: Re: Why So High?
Post by: Drunky on June 23, 2003, 05:25:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
I can understand wanting an advantage in a fight, but combined with superior numbers, why not just engage?

Seeing more and more of this style of gameplay...do what brings ya the fun, just help me understand the motivation for not engaging a lower and slower opponent please.

Thank you



I have to agree.  They are making me look like an 'insanely agressive' pile-it when I fly at an enemy plane :p
Title: Why So High?
Post by: -ammo- on June 23, 2003, 05:37:45 PM
drunky-

You just think you can "hear" Jimmy.  But you can't hear Jimmy.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Saurdaukar on June 23, 2003, 06:09:21 PM
Rude.  

Youre forgetting that everyone that plays the game nowadays is a hot stick.  If they get shot down, the shame is roughly equivalent to having their noodle removed with a rusty, blunt butter knife.

Its not an advantage thing, its not an alt thing, its not a plane thing.  I find that more and more people simply wont engage unless they are absolutely sure they can fight and win or fight and leave if they get into trouble.

I actually had three La7's run from my homely Spit V the other day - Im not sure what other advantage they wanted?

Of course you follow them for a short while... then turn and leave after its clear they dont want any of your plywood terror and peashooters... and sure enough, they turn to follow you as if you've forgetten they were back there.

::whisper:: Psst... keep the chatter down guys... we're going to sneak up on him... shhhhh!!

So you turn back at them, avoid three HO's and then they keep going again in the same direction... you follow, etc etc etc, repeat, repeat, repeat.

Booorrrrrrrrring.

I find the only way to get action is to fly around in a P47 - youll be surrounded by cons in no time flat - cons trip over themselves to get a crack at you.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Arlo on June 23, 2003, 06:14:06 PM
What a buncha whiners. :D
Title: Why So High?
Post by: NoBaddy on June 23, 2003, 07:20:42 PM
Rude...

It is a sign of AH's success. If you were around in AW prior to CRIS, the average alt was about 5k. Increase the players...increase the alt. Hell, with what alt costs these days...why not? :D
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Widewing on June 23, 2003, 07:42:51 PM
Stratodweebs... Ya gotta admire their patience if nothing else. ;)

I've seen base capture missions where two dozen Mustangs where up above 25k!!! You couldn't generate more augers if someone announced on the open channel that Katherine Zeta-Jones was doing naked lap dances on MTV.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Kweassa on June 23, 2003, 08:17:37 PM
This what I've  posted in the "Perk The Big Four" thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88550), in the Gameplay forums, offers a partial explanation on the "superior numbers+alt, or don't engage, just run" tendencies seen in the MA as of late.
 
 Basically, the combination of the planes which are overused, (a combination of roles which once, long ago, was carried out by the F4U-1C + the usual Spit+N1Ks alone) promotes that kind of behavior.

 One may argue that "then why was that tendency not so visible when the F4U-1C was unperked?"

 The reasons are simple:

1) The increase in MA numbers have dropped the overall average skill level of players. Simply, the more people there is overall, the less percentage of people who know to really fight.

2) With the splitting of the roles due to the perking of the F4U-1C, now, there are other planes which carry out the pure low-alt fighter role with even better efficiency than the F4U-1C. Simply put, not many planes caught the F4U-1C running away in the old days. They were lighter, and only about the P-51D and the Typhoon was faster. Now, there's the D-9 and the La-7 added to the list of the faster planes, the latter being virtually as fast as the Tempest.

 ...

 Thus, with the new combination of four planes, each role(which the F4U-1C was once, doing by itself) became more efficient and specialized - now, all countries use that combination of planes. It is a deadly combination, and thus, the only real advantage within a large battle, is numbers and alt advantage(plus, fuel advantage which dictate the alt advantage - which also partially explains the fuel porking suicides of late, too).

 Here's the post:

 ........................

That is unless one removes(or rather, regulates - "removing" a plane via punitive perk costs, is not the same thing as lightly perking them for regulating them) a total 'section' of certain fighters above certain performance levels, so that the very style of gameplay may change - currently, as I see it, the "MA style" of combat is a result of certain planes being interdependant on each other.

Planes being interdependant on each other is not a bad thing, but however, when those are the few plane types that are qualified for variety of purposes, being excellent in almost every category, the problem rises that practically other planes are rendered obsolete.

.........

La-7, P-51D, Typhoon, N1K2, Spit9 - these are all you need right now.

For jabo and suppression, the P-51Ds and Typhoons carry out the task with more ordnance than most of the jabo planes, far better survivability than most bombers, and then they can also immediately switch to versatile fighter roles after ordnance is dropped.

Mid to high alt fights, the P-51Ds used en masse takes the cake.

Low alt engagements and suppression, the La-7 does it all.

And the backbone of air power, the planes used in the 'grunt' role of air combat, chasing down slow planes or engaging other 'grunts', with high attrition levels - Spit9 and N1K2. These are planes that have exceptional maneuverability and yet, have decent speed(The N1K2 and Spit9 considered slow planes? Probably, to those who regularly use G-10s, D-9s, La-7s and P-51Ds, Typhoons. To the other planes below the "1944" levels, they are fast enough to be a big threat). Of those two, the former is a bit better suited for mid-high alt performance, and the latter can take on a jabo role if required, with four cannons of 900 rounds of ammo.

...

The combination of the above mentioned 4~5 planes(which, also happen to be the 'big four', except the Typhoon(if one considers jabo purposes, the Typhoon probably joins the 'big four' in usage)), is the exact element of their overusage. The 'big four' are the 'big four', because combination of those four, is the key to winning the land-grab theme surrounding the MA.

Then what about the superior numbers, alt-monkeying, running at the sight of co-E plane crap that's been going on? Simple.

Since all of the countries are now using that "Big four Combo" regularly, apparently there's no advantage gained in the combination of other plane types - thus, the advantage is earned by sheer numbers.

Since the "Big four combo" is so fediddlein' lethal, now, nobody, not even the vets, can be sure that they can meet a plane and win against it quickly in a major battle zone. As soon as you get that one guy, a La-7 comes on you co-alt, a P-51D drops down from high, and the Spits and N1K2s are waiting for you down low!  Either you stick to that "SA" thingy like the ticket to heaven at Armageddon's Day, or you become a victim, and at the same time, the perpetrator of it.

..

So, what about the other planes? The G-10 and the D-9?

These are probably the only two planes which can vaguely substitute the above roles that the P-51D and the La-7 plays. However, the huge difference in armament(thanks to that long-range aspect of Hispanos and .50s) makes them crappy substitutes at best, not to mention they are both no match in the multi-purpose category(too limited in jabo role).

So, basically the G-10 plays as a substitue for the La-7, but due to their insane climb rates, limited ammo and sucky weaponery, and special 'gadgetry' such as the gun pods.. they play a more defensive version of it. The D-9 plays the mid-high alt substitute role for the P-51D. Thus, these become the only two planes really worthy of considering use in the MA environment.

The P-38L, is a cross-breed between the P-51D and the Typhoon(in efficiency as the MA fighter) - heavier jabo loads, limited "running" capability, but better conventional dogfight capability. These show up when either they are suicidal, or the target field is already suppressed.

...

So seriously, will they go for another ride when the "big four" is perked? Yes, with simular results. The 'accident' in the MA, where Spits couldn't take off in Bugisles, showed that the Spits move on to N1K2s. People will move to the crappier substitue versions of their former La-7s and P-51Ds, but still, the results won't be too different.

But when the entire "section" of late war planes are perked?

Some say diversity cannot be reached by perking or regulating. But they are wrong.

The perking of the F4U-1C, is a testament to that. The F4U-1C is a four Hispano armed plane - which adds a vast advantage to its A2A capabilities, which carries 6 rockets and 2000lbs ordnance, can take off from a carrier, and also is one of the fastest planes on deck(slow acceleration and limited WEP, but the F4U-1D and the F4U-1C, is faster than the Bf109G-10).

It was a "one-plane-do-all" fighter.

When it was perked, what happened? Since no other plane has that kind of capabilities, it's role in the MA is now carried out by three different planes - P-51D, La-7, and the Typhoon! Also, in carrier ops, it's role is split into three by the F4U-1D for jabo, and the F6F-5 and the Seafire for pure A2A suppression. In short, the F4U-1C alone, was doing the job of 6 different fighters in the MA.

With the perk costs, increased risk, and added correct weight, it is now 6 different planes that carry the job that once, the F4U-1C did alone.

That explains why we'll never see a single plane doing 20% of all the kills in the MA ever! And that also means that 20% is now not the standard on which 'overusage' should be judged upon. Relative monoploy is what should be considered.

8 points for the F4U-1C gave way to 6 different fighter types in the MA. Therefore, perking some of the "late war fighter" section, should also be able to give way to other fighters by splitting the role which once one fighter could do alone by itself.

Perks do increase diversity.

Regulating the total section of late war fighters, which is consisted of the "Big four" plus its substitutes, will force the overall planeset into an era prior to the emerging of the "Super planes", where realtive performance margins are better balanced. Not to mention that also, the roles formerly carried out by them(which was once carried by the F4U-1C alone) will also split into other plane types - jabo role to the dedicated jabo planes, fighter role to the pure fighter planes.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Mathman on June 23, 2003, 08:18:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
Superior alt, superior plane, superior numbers, if these conditions are not met you do not engage.  You spread them lips out wide and fly on.  Its the new mantra of the ***** arena.


Furious, you owe me $5.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: stegor on June 24, 2003, 03:07:08 AM
Again and again..... "You don't fly the way I want ....booring!!":rolleyes:
Title: Why So High?
Post by: GRUNHERZ on June 24, 2003, 03:59:37 AM
I dont get it either, I sometimes fly the Il2 in base defense just for the hell of it and pretty much every time I fly it there are some guys who simply run from that one too. I've also had people run away from my SBD5 and my Stuka... :eek:
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Maniac on June 24, 2003, 04:56:26 AM
Quote
You just think you can "hear" Jimmy. But you can't hear Jimmy.


White men cant jump :D
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Jackal1 on June 24, 2003, 05:04:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by -ammo-
drunky-

You just think you can "hear" Jimmy.  But you can't hear Jimmy.


ammo you just think you can "spell " Jimi, but you can`t spell Jimi.
  Excuse me while I kiss the sky. :cool:
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Pooh21 on June 24, 2003, 05:07:03 AM
That is always a laugh, having spits run from Stukas. Last month straw broke camels back in this game, typical bish horde comes along. Musta been about 30 P51s from the deck to 25k  plus more behind them, in the sector was 2 squaddies, some dumb n00b who couldnt get off the ground and me. P51s go in half auger more show up so there is about 30-40 over the base alone. Im fighting a spitv that actually wants to fight my p38, I shoot him up, he runs. of course a spitv running is usually laughable. But he does the point nose at the ground in the direction of his buddys. Then a 32k+ 109 shows up. I mean Im at 22k and this guy is a little dot that says 109. P51s suddenly notice me and now I got 5 heading for me, so I just bail.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: lazs2 on June 24, 2003, 08:27:41 AM
Yep... why fly in high if you are no good anyway?  some trainer tell you that alt is life?  

Alt isn't life and it doesn't give you an advantage if you can't do acm.  You will just die that much more slowly... people who take the time to go up (or lure you down) to kill you will be that much more disgusted with your lack of skill because they wasted so much time on you. and...

you will never get good in your high alt foxhole.
lazs
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Zippatuh on June 24, 2003, 08:28:22 AM
Why won’t they come down?  It takes a long time to get that much altitude, do you think they’re going to blow it all at once?  Hell no!  They paid their time for it, might as well see the sights while you’re at it :D.

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


Blah blah blah...  Perk it all until I see what I want.



People are going to fly the best perceived aircraft no matter what time frame you have.  I didn’t read all that dribble but it basically comes down to, you perk the top four then there will be another top 4, so lets perk it.  Then the next 4.  We’ll be paying 5 perks to fly a C47 by they time you're done.  Also there’s no way I’m going to change in a 51 for a hun piece of junk.

I’m sorry the aircraft diversity is not what you would like it to be but that doesn’t give you the right to dictate what someone else flies.  And this is in no way similar to the C-hog debacle.

It’s really not all about you ;).
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 24, 2003, 08:38:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Rude...

It is a sign of AH's success. If you were around in AW prior to CRIS, the average alt was about 5k. Increase the players...increase the alt. Hell, with what alt costs these days...why not? :D


I flew back then....I agree....so many folks have changed things for sure.

Hey HT!!! Raise the price:)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 24, 2003, 08:40:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by stegor
Again and again..... "You don't fly the way I want ....booring!!":rolleyes:


Sissy!
Title: Why So High?
Post by: lazs2 on June 24, 2003, 08:40:47 AM
How does someone afford to be bored?   the game is cheaper so I can afford to be bored?
lazs
Title: Why So High?
Post by: gofaster on June 24, 2003, 08:58:13 AM
So I log on to see where the action is.  Knights are doing a big push on the southwest front so I head over that way.  Two Rook bases are close to the Knight base.  One is porked to 25% fuel, the other is 100% but no DTs, so I up a P-47D-30 with 100%.  

Climb out on a mix of WEP and max throttle.  I'm at 20k by the time I can even see the Knight base because I've travelled nearly two sectors to get to the closest enemy base.  Also at 20k is a Knight FW190 circling over its own airfield.  Maybe he sees the "P47" tag and assumes I'm goinna divebomb or something, but anyway he charges at me in an offset merge.  We start circling around in a sort of offset joust with the FW doing a split-S downward after each merge and I'm doing a split-S upward after each merge.  Eventually he ends up about 5k below me so things are looking better.

Right about then I notice a P-38 coming in from the north, probably upped from the Knight base farther upstream.  I do some turnfighting with him, but of course at 20k alt he has the advantage so I break off by diving away.

Since I'm diving away, the FW sees its chance and chases me.  Well, I can't turn without ending up in the gunsight of the P-38 and I can't outrun the FW, so I make a quick vulch pass over the Knight airfield and catch a P-51 on climbout.  Apparently the FW doesn't believe in teamwork because he doesn't "Check 6" the 'stang.  Easy backshot kill for me.

Now the FW is within d1.0 of me so I do a little evasive just to make him work a bit.  I know in a turnfight I can take'em, but we're both packing too much speed so I go into a climb to bleed some energy, maybe get the FW to blackout and lose sight of me.  I go up, wingover, back down, the FW is still there.  I really gotta come up with some new maneuvers, I guess.  We go round and round a bit and I know the P-38 is probably licking its chops trying to decide whether to come down or not.  Right about then an LA-7 ups from the airfield and puts an end to the game.  Oh well.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: stegor on June 24, 2003, 09:22:27 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by stegor
Again and again..... "You don't fly the way I want ....booring!!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sissy!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


:confused: wondering why . Maybe I missed something Rude??
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Sharky on June 24, 2003, 10:30:21 AM
I've been reading these debates over flying style for the last few days with quiet amusment.  On the one hand you have the folks that believe that the real pilots just wade in at low level and go at it.  The other group seeks to gain an advantage in energy before engaging.

Now of course each group thinks their's is the "Manly" way to conduct air combat and the other are just dweebs.  The classic "If you don't fly and fight my way your a no talent dweeb"

The low alt guys say that any one that enters the fight with an altitude advantage will run the first time anyone shows any intention of challanging them.  (Spits running from SBDs and Stukas etc)  The energy camp says the furballers just spawn, shoot, die.......rinse and repeat.

Well I will always try to gain every advantage that I can.  I really like to return to base as much as I can.  Now do I always have the advantage when I fight?  No.  Sometimes your forced into a fight with a disadvantage.  Will I try and disengage from that fight if I can?  You bet!  If I'm caught slow in my Mustang by a Spit, it would be suicied to try and fight on his terms unless he's the worse pilot to ever fly this sim.  I'll try to force a nose to nose merge then unload and haul ass.

Quote
you will never get good in your high alt foxhole.
lazs


This caught my eye.  Now I'm not the best pilot in the sky but I do Ok.  I've at one time or another been a trainer both here and in Warbirds so it can be assumed that I at least have a working knowledge of ACM.

Now I just got back into flying after several months break so I decided to bounce my stats against yours lazs.  Guess what?  We're almost identical in our stats.  Both have a K/D about 3, both have a K/S of about 1.5, both have a K/H of about 7 and our gunnery is about the same at ~6.5%

So it seems to me lazs that we both get just about the same success out of the way we each fly this sim and isn't that the whole point?

Sharky
(If you want to see my stats use ChiefD, new account)

edited for spelling and grammer
Title: Why So High?
Post by: mia389 on June 24, 2003, 10:44:03 AM
Kweassa you are so right reading all that. They wonder why I sit at 20k in a P38 while there down there killing my base and the couple guys that upped. I hear on channel one you alt monkey smokey come down here,, Im thinking ya come down there to killed by 15 Rooks waiting for me to come down. Think Ill keep my alt and pick the guys off that try to climb to me.
Title: errr.......
Post by: flyingaround on June 24, 2003, 11:30:40 AM
sorry everyone, i misunderstood the thread title.  Thought this was about sumptin' else.  (**cough 420**)

+Lute
III/JG26 9ST Widow Makers
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 24, 2003, 12:31:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by stegor
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by stegor
Again and again..... "You don't fly the way I want ....booring!!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sissy!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


:confused: wondering why . Maybe I missed something Rude??


Nevermind:)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Drunky on June 24, 2003, 12:41:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by -ammo-
drunky-

You just think you can "hear" Jimmy.  But you can't hear Jimmy.



"Did you know that Jimi played with two white guys?"
Title: Why So High?
Post by: -ammo- on June 24, 2003, 12:53:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Drunky
"Did you know that Jimi played with two white guys?"


All I know is that I like his stuff and stick CD's with his music in my player all the time..and I "hear" Jimi  <<<(notice correct spelling).  Why would I give a flinging turd whether there were two white guys producing good sound with him?

later
Title: Why So High?
Post by: jayster on June 24, 2003, 01:00:33 PM
i'll fly as high as i want, you want to kill me? Come get me.. Now quit your whining
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Drunky on June 24, 2003, 01:11:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by -ammo-
All I know is that I like his stuff and stick CD's with his music in my player all the time..and I "hear" Jimi  <<<(notice correct spelling).  Why would I give a flinging turd whether there were two white guys producing good sound with him?

later



It's the next quote from White Men Can't Jump ;)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 24, 2003, 01:15:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by jayster
i'll fly as high as i want, you want to kill me? Come get me.. Now quit your whining


I'm simply asking you hi flyers what your so scared of....you don't need to get all flushed.

Just seems funny to fly around underneath all of you studs just to watch you perch....and when you do come down a bit, you then extend(politically correct term) away from the fight. You repeat the above until you finally die.

Just come on down in the first place and get it over with. The fact that you have small stones is no secret to anyone here...they'll grow larger in time.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: GScholz on June 24, 2003, 01:16:47 PM
Why ppl fly high by Doctor Günther Scholz:

1. The B&Z planes; fly high because they don't want any good turning planes to be higher. A turner like a Spit can use the alt advantage to pick up speed and get within gun range, using their superior turning ability to ensure a good shot oppertunity.

2. The turners; see 1.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: funkedup on June 24, 2003, 01:34:53 PM
Found a pic of Rude on my fish sticks box:  (http://www.gortons.com/images/template/fisherman.gif)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 24, 2003, 01:42:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
Found a pic of Rude on my fish sticks box:  (http://www.gortons.com/images/template/fisherman.gif)


An unauthorized picture I might add....Marcia!!!!!(my receptionist) Call my attorney!!!!

It's tough being me:)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: jayster on June 24, 2003, 01:50:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
I'm simply asking you hi flyers what your so scared of....you don't need to get all flushed.


Well were surely scared of pilots like yourself, who would want to get killed by almighty Rude? Id come down, but then id have 5 of your buds breathing down my neck.. Bish are known for that sorta thing..

Quote
Just come on down in the first place and get it over with. The fact that you have small stones is no secret to anyone here...they'll grow larger in time.


And god knows how you know my stones are small...Been peakin thru my window?
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Khnemu on June 24, 2003, 02:25:11 PM
Rude i'll tell you why...

I think most in aces high flew aw which in aw 25k or 30 was the norm.  specially of the AZ :p

its fun to watch them dive, compress and crash in flames.:D

personally i fly 10k - 15k unless i am alone and find myself against many numbers then i'll try to gain a little more alt for the extra E advantage.

Actually I find it neurotic to fly so high where maneuverability is way weakened and you end up low any ways.

I think in the new ah2 the should be a realistic ceiling as compared to the actual real life planes.

40k b17s just dont cut it :rolleyes:
Title: Why So High?
Post by: lazs2 on June 24, 2003, 02:30:32 PM
"Now I just got back into flying after several months break so I decided to bounce my stats against yours lazs. Guess what? We're almost identical in our stats. Both have a K/D about 3, both have a K/S of about 1.5, both have a K/H of about 7 and our gunnery is about the same at ~6.5% "

well... not that it matters but... u may be looking at my stats for the stupid challenge thingie.. I like to do a little better than 7 kills per hour.

I see rudes point... why stay up there or come in high if you are simply gonna prolong your death.   You are no threat to anyone up there and you aren't gonna get good good in your high alt foxhole.

sharky... you won't even get 7 kills per hour if you come in at 20k and try to maintain that alt... I would venture to say that the way you learned ACM wasn't hiding up there but by mixing it up... that is the point...

lazs
Title: Why So High?
Post by: lazs2 on June 24, 2003, 02:32:12 PM
oh, and sharky... I am not a trainer and never have been... I am at best mediocre and probly the worst sim pilot in our squad.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Title: Why So High?
Post by: -ammo- on June 24, 2003, 02:44:45 PM
I bow to your knowledge of that movie:)

Dont you just love when some butthead starts another topic completely off topic from the thread?
Title: Why So High?
Post by: SunKing on June 24, 2003, 02:47:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I've also had people run away from my SBD5 and my Stuka... :eek:


Bah! I can't belive that one. It's more like they are porking the base see your Stuka and instantly drop everything  and 5+ guys horde the attempted easy kill, then the cons up and they all die with even odds the end.


 I've seen bombers do this too.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Midnight on June 24, 2003, 02:56:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
.. you won't even get 7 kills per hour if you come in at 20k and try to maintain that alt... I would venture to say that the way you learned ACM wasn't hiding up there but by mixing it up... that is the point...


You can get 7 kills per hour at 20K
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/105score/105score.pl?gameid=Midnight&tour=svsl2.hitechcreations.com:0:Tour41
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 24, 2003, 03:14:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by jayster
Well were surely scared of pilots like yourself, who would want to get killed by almighty Rude? Id come down, but then id have 5 of your buds breathing down my neck.. Bish are known for that sorta thing..

 

And god knows how you know my stones are small...Been peakin thru my window?


Well, I was really just using a metaphor...I didn't know that they were tiny in RL....sorry about that, I won't mention it again.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: jayster on June 24, 2003, 04:05:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Well, I was really just using a metaphor...I didn't know that they were tiny in RL....sorry about that, I won't mention it again.


Guess you didnt see the sarcasm in my statement as i didnt see the metaphor in yours.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Bluedog on June 24, 2003, 04:09:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TW9
(bong water sound) Huh?



This explains everything....:)

Puff puff give TW9...yer fediddlein up he rotation man!
Title: Why So High?
Post by: NoBaddy on June 24, 2003, 05:00:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rude

Hey HT!!! Raise the price:)


I agree!!! Keeps the riff raff out :D.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: NoBaddy on June 24, 2003, 05:05:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
How does someone afford to be bored?   the game is cheaper so I can afford to be bored?
lazs


Lazs...

Here's a clue for yah...there are people that don't play the game the way you do...and they aren't bored!!! Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean no one else can like it :).
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Hornet on June 24, 2003, 05:50:56 PM
People shouldn't confuse actual knife-fighting with horizontal cherry picking. Coming late to a fight and using long lazy extends and one can (yawn) cherry pick away without ever popping up over 5k or so. So who cares bout the guys who go to 20k to do it -- least they're honest about their intentions ;)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 24, 2003, 06:00:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by jayster
i'll fly as high as i want, you want to kill me? Come get me.. Now quit your whining




Why bother?  You'll just run at the first sign of danger.


Ack-Ack
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 24, 2003, 06:05:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Khnemu
Rude i'll tell you why...

I think most in aces high flew aw which in aw 25k or 30 was the norm.  specially of the AZ :p




All the years I played AW (started in '93, quit when it went belly up) the majority of the fights were 10k or lower.  There were only a few dedicated alt monkeys that always flew 25k-35k and yes, they were mostly Azlanders.



Ack-Ack
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Widewing on June 24, 2003, 06:23:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sharky

Well I will always try to gain every advantage that I can.  I really like to return to base as much as I can.  Now do I always have the advantage when I fight?  No.  Sometimes your forced into a fight with a disadvantage.  Will I try and disengage from that fight if I can?  You bet!  If I'm caught slow in my Mustang by a Spit, it would be suicied to try and fight on his terms unless he's the worse pilot to ever fly this sim.  I'll try to force a nose to nose merge then unload and haul ass.


I don't think that the issue relates to guys who like to have some altitude in their back pocket before engaging.

What Rude was describing is the guy who takes off from a field a full sector away from a fight, climbs up to the Sputnik's orbit and heads to the area of battle. Once he arrives and discovers that the this field is essentially capped, he stays up there until fuel sends him packing.

Now, I understand that most of these guys are n00bs and are very nervous of getting ganged. Yet, the question begs; why come at all?

When I first started playing this game I took on anyone, anywhere in anything. I figured that this would shorten the learning curve. It did. Gradually I became confident that I could hold my own under most circumstances and began exploring different tactics.

Ultimately, the Stratodweebs will need to get engaged to develop their skills and SA. Because, if they don't they will eventually lose interest or become disheartened.

This is not to say that they must join every furball they see. However, no one gets better at this game without being shot down, sometime often. Furthermore, most experienced players don't mind a n00b tagging along. As Yogi said, "you can observe a lot by just watching." Heck, n00bs can make excellent bait!!! I encourage every new player to wing up with an experienced player or squad. At least here they will have someone to learn from and teach them. Up alone at 35k, there's little to be learned other than boredom.

We have guys in my squad who are the polar opposite of the Stratodweebs. These guys are fearless, not afraid to take on any horde. Sure their stats aren't very good, but they will get better because you learn quickly under those circumstances.

In short, if they really want to maximize their enjoyment and add to their skills and SA, they have to come down from the Van Allen Belt and get engaged.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Re: Why So High?
Post by: Tumor on June 24, 2003, 07:13:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
I can understand wanting an advantage in a fight, but combined with superior numbers, why not just engage?

Seeing more and more of this style of gameplay...do what brings ya the fun, just help me understand the motivation for not engaging a lower and slower opponent please.

Thank you


Because inevitabley, that lower and slower con has a tag-along or 4, usually in the form of Spits/La-7s that I for one would rather not give a kill.  I pick my fights... simple as that.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Arlo on June 24, 2003, 07:36:00 PM
Not gonna understand you, Tumor ... it's not in dufe-pidgin. ;)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: lazs2 on June 25, 2003, 08:43:26 AM
"Lazs...

Here's a clue for yah...there are people that don't play the game the way you do...and they aren't bored!!! Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean no one else can like it .


__________________
NB"

No... but obviously.... they are wrong.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Title: Re: Re: Why So High?
Post by: Rude on June 25, 2003, 09:00:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
Because inevitabley, that lower and slower con has a tag-along or 4, usually in the form of Spits/La-7s that I for one would rather not give a kill.  I pick my fights... simple as that.


More power to ya Tumor....just don't get loggin on to not fight. I engage multiples, just requires some thought....beats flyin around above the masses only to eventually get bored and die anyway.

Just unusual behavior to me...in 10 years, I've not seen people just fly around....seen lots of high guys, but they used to get after it, especially with an alt and speed advantage....I mean, what kind of risk taking is that?

BTW, I'm all in favor of folks dancin to their own music....I was just curious as to why I'm seeing what I'm seeing.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Saurdaukar on June 25, 2003, 09:11:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by jayster
Guess you didnt see the sarcasm in my statement as i didnt see the metaphor in yours.


Just out of curiosity - who are you?
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Sharky on June 25, 2003, 10:47:36 AM
Quote
oh, and sharky... I am not a trainer and never have been... I am at best mediocre and probly the worst sim pilot in our squad.



I only mentioned that so you'd understand that I at least had a working knowledge of ACM not to puff up my chest.  Anyway I gave it the Lazs method of fighting yesterday.  Not just a sortie or two but about 20.  Well my K/S and K/D stayed about the same but I don't think I landed more than 3 of those sorties.  Problem with just wadding in and mixing it up is you have to kill everyone before you leave!  :)

Anyway, fly the way you like and I'll fly the way I like.  Hell I may even swoop down off my perch to clear your six sometime or at least use you as bait :)  

Sharky
Title: Why So High?
Post by: jayster on June 25, 2003, 11:17:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Why bother?  You'll just run at the first sign of danger.


Ack-Ack


Better get a faster plane to catch me then.


Quote
Just out of curiosity - who are you?


Who are you?
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Saurdaukar on June 25, 2003, 02:15:57 PM
Thats your response?  Who told you it was ok to 'answer' a question with a question?

It was a really simple one too.

Allow me to explain my reason for asking:  You dont seem to like Rude too much.  Now - Rude's been around for a pretty long time, so youre either a new guy with a chip on his shoulder because youve been banned from all the CounterStrike servers for team killing or your a 'vet' with a different name.

And so... enter initial quesiton.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: Blue Mako on June 25, 2003, 10:25:58 PM
The world is really mesed up when ppl from the 13th TAS start complaining about alt monkeys... :P
Title: Why So High?
Post by: nopoop on June 25, 2003, 11:07:43 PM
Sharky, good to see you here, hope you have fun.

On to the subject. I think it really depends on the amount of time spent on line, and a little of your "make up."

I can only give an example of myself and probably those that I fly with. Maybe and hour, sometimes alittle more a night, for the most part during the week.

In that time you have the opportunity to fly a couple of sorties way up high, maybe a few kills..

..or get down in the weeds have twenty or more opportunities in the same timeframe from which you take what you can and put it down on the runway. Not flying in the weeds to die.

In the weeds, that happens, but it comes with the territory.

Boring.

No.

Fun.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: sax on June 25, 2003, 11:15:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Mako
The world is really mesed up when ppl from the 13th TAS start complaining about alt monkeys... :P


Rude wasn't complaining , just asked a simple question . Even a 412th alt monkey should get it:)
Title: Why So High?
Post by: jayster on June 25, 2003, 11:25:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by sax
Rude wasn't complaining , just asked a simple question . Even a 412th alt monkey should get it:)


Alot seems to have changed, P51 Dweebs to Alt Whining P51 dweebs.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: bizket on June 26, 2003, 02:38:53 AM
You know I do have to say rude does have a point. I'm seeing more and more guys come in at me with a 5 to 10k advantage, make a few passes then run away. I dont really know what the problem is. My guess is they just dont know to do if start to lose their advantage so they run. Most likely they dont have a very good working knowledge of ACM so they depend on total surpise to get kills.

New guys need more opportunites for training. It would be nice if AH hired a few more trainers and started to staff the TA with a few of them every weeknight. That was the one thing WBs really had going for it. You logged into the TA, a trainer asked what you wanted to work on and you went and did it. Even in a half hour lesson you could really learn a lot.
Title: Why So High?
Post by: HawkerMKII on June 26, 2003, 04:32:36 PM
Would help if HT ould add O2 to the plane, lots of the 22k la7 would be gone.....no O2 in a real la7....think about it