Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bigsky on June 24, 2003, 11:30:41 AM
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http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=18&rnd=182.43439367508733
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You know, the guy touchs on something I wondered if anyone would mention...the 507th support folks getting their butts kicked by a few local militia.
I was a support person when I was in the Guard. We didnt have the grunt stuff, as this guy points out.
It'll be interesting to see what the Army and others do. As he points out with the Marines...when their supply guys were harassed, they kicked ass.
The dust is still settling
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Fair point, Marines are infantrymen first and foremost that includes the women.
The US Marines the best soldiers the USA has and as good or better than any soldier in any army.
The army........well......the army is the army.
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Originally posted by blue1
Fair point, Marines are infantrymen first and foremost that includes the women.
The US Marines the best soldiers the USA has and as good or better than any soldier in any army.
The army........well......the army is the army.
that was kind of a silly thing to say dude. dont repeat that anywhere near ft benning. or within earshot of any of the dudes in the 7th light infantry i worked around long ago. they were army maintainance not combat infantry.
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It would only be silly if I didn't have a couple of Marines to back me up were I to wander into Fort Benning :D
I'd say this very topic has been the subject of occasional bar room 'discussion' ;) in the past.
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Originally posted by blue1
It would only be silly if I didn't have a couple of Marines to back me up were I to wander into Fort Benning :D
I'd say this very topic has been the subject of occasional bar room 'discussion' ;) in the past.
ive worked with army infantry a little and marines alot. truth is if you carry a gun for a living in the American military you are going to be good at your job or you wouldnt have the job. it is true tho about difference between army and marines at a base level when you look at what happened to army maintainence in that ambush. i think logistic tail of marines is much smaller. so more of your rear area marines spent at least a couple of years in a combat unit packing a rifle. army has way bigger logistics and maintanence presence so better chance of having someone who has never been in combat unit in one of those jobs. marine boot camp is only real boot camp left in american military as well. level of pressure you have in marine boot should be duplicated in all army navy air force boot camps. i was shocked at how laid back navy boot camp was and that was years ago when alot of the pc dumb restrictions on boot camp instructors didnt exist.
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Since you peeps like the war so much.. how about US Army vs. US Marines civil war?
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^Been there done that. In the 1860's. Too tough and bloody a fight. Much easier and more fun to kick foreigner butt............
C.
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Well allow me to add my 2 cents but let me give you some background first. I was in the Marine Corps 4 1/2 years. I was active duty Army for 4 1/2 years. 1 year Army National Guard. and going on 4 years Army reserve. I hope this makes me sort of knowlegeable on the subject.
In the Marines I wasnt even support. I was in computer ops. We went to the field all the time to train. I asked why do we go so much cus I was in computer ops. Answer: You are a Marine Corps rifleman first, computer ops second. Made since to me. I wasnt as psyco as a ground pounder or a tanker but took my training seriously and loved mock combat.
Then on to the army. I left the Marine Corps to be a civilian during the downsizing after the Gulf war. Couldnt find a job. Couldnt get back into the Marines. So joined the Army. Let me tell you the hardest thing was going from Corporal in the Marines to Specialist in the army. Same pay grade different respect. Maine Corps corporal is the man. You lead train and make everything happen. Army specialist, well you are high paid private.
Support units in the army suck. They cannot defend themselves. No knowlege of what to do if under attack. There first response is to dawn there mask. Thats stupid cus while putting on your mask you are being shot. They have no idea how to take care of their weapons sand in their weapons cmon. Everyone know m16 is crap when dirty. Most cant even break down the m16.
I was stationed at Ft. Irwin Ca at the National Training Center. The things I could tell you but dont wanna take up anymore of your time. If asked I will. Let me say this. When ever the news came to NTC we were told we cannot comment on the readiness of the army. Whole army battalions have been destroyed in mock combat within 2 hours.
A.....int
R.....eady for the
M....arines
Y.....et
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Do tell jamusta.
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The army is full of people earning college credits and and a bit of training and a few working their citizenship. The Marines is full of fighting soldiers and fighting soldiers earning their citizenship the hard way.
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Originally posted by blue1
The army is full of people earning college credits and and a bit of training and a few working their citizenship. The Marines is full of fighting soldiers and fighting soldiers earning their citizenship the hard way.
actually usmc is full of marines not soldiers. :) lest anyone get the wrong impression i feel obligated to chime in and say that of the non sepcial operations army types ive worked with and watched in combat i never found myself thinking that they were inept. not saying the special operations guys of the army are inept at all made the distinction because people are talking about rear area and regular army and marines here. i still dont see the logic in saying that the american army doesnt have any shooters in the same league as the usmc because some army maintainence people got whooped when they probably shouldnt have. the only logical statement from the facts would be that the marine logistics guys took care of business and the army ones didnt. blue1 army combat units are full of fighting soldiers. if they werent fighting soldiers at heart theyd choose a more pleasant job within the army.
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The bigest difference I have seen between the army and the Marines is the respect and the pide the Marines have. That in turn shows in their tenacity on the battlefield. Marines preach quick obedience to orders, while an army soldier will question you. That in itself will get fellow soldies killed. Oh and never call a Marine a soldier..
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jamusta what did you do at ntc? did you enjoy it?
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I was in the USMC and had a fair amount of interaction with both the Navy and the Air Force.
I always wondered how they could call some of the military branches "Armed Forces" when their people never saw a weapon again after boot camp?
More like "Un-Armed Forces" to me.
I agree that it's a shame that people in the service (all of them) aren't trained for war. Yes, the Marine's code of "Every Marine is a Basic Rifleman" is significant but not enough IMHO.
I never trained where live rounds were going off over my head. Yea, I shot on the range but that was it. And a Battalion FX out on a mountain in Okinawa throwing grenades and shooting blanks every month doesn't quite cut it either.
[edit] Last point. A clean weapon was God while I was in...especially in the bush. I think it shows a lack of leadership that the 507th were allowed to have filthy rifles that jambed. That lack of discipline costs people their lives. Come on, how hard is it really to keep a m16 clean. It's not. Takes 10 mins, 2 or 3 times a day. [/edit]
Just my $.02.
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jamusta is correct, to a point. the problem with the army is it is THE ARMY, the clintons have had there PC way with things. we cant recruit people who can do there job and be a reliable soldier too. they can make more money outside the army for the same job. but not have to do the rifleman thing. every soldier is a soldier no matter if he is combat arms or not. this principal the jarheads seemed to have worked out. the primary problem is that we spend a lot money on new gadegets that dont really help that much. we need to get back to fundimentels of small unit leadership. its not complicated folks its INFANTRY. not F-22s. we are not gearing up to fight group soviet forces in western europe, we are going to fight the small mean battles of U.S.A. interests in the world. if we follow the russian model of things with draftees getting thrown in to a fight that they have not been trained for( i.e. chechnia) where they have to pay very extra to the good soldiers who know how to fight. then what state are the U.S. army in? i think the US would be better off if we got the old school army guys back. the working class types who were in for the training to get those decent jobs. but thats my opinion. but to the point if that 507th c.o. ever made it back alive he should have been punishied in the old way. stripped of his rank and army insignia, his officer sword broken and a yellow stripe painted down his back and cast out of the army and fort while the troopers of his command turned there backs(obout face) on him. this would set an good example to the cowards of the army officer corps. those guys are officers they should lead from the front. they should come back with there shields or on them.
bigsky " if you aint CAV you aint ****":o :o :o :o
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I went into the Navy in 1982. That PC **** started way ahead of Clinton. No question.
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Carter!!! ;)
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since you you posted here fishu, since when did you win one??
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Originally posted by bigsky
since you you posted here fishu, since when did you win one??
Well... havent been much civil wars lately over here :>
There was civil war in the begining of last century thou...
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this is kind of an american post fishu, so i dont expect to understand. us marines vs us army is not a civil war it a rivalry. thats all.
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to the grunts.
I was very eager to train when I joined the USAF...I guess the writing was on the wall when we got 2 hours or M-16 training...and even that piece of crap was converted to fire .22 LR instead of 5.56. Jammed every 3rd round. Gee, great training.
Best fun I had at the tail end of my Air National Guard career was being assigned to a security police group. Great guys, almost all former Marines and they took me away from my clerical crap to go shoot with them. Had a blast. Heck I knew more about C4 and M-60's than filing payroll for a long time :p
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Originally posted by Fishu
Since you peeps like the war so much.. how about US Army vs. US Marines civil war?
It's not at all that we "like" war Fishu....it's simply the fact that we are not bleeding heart, left wing socialists such as yourself.
It feels good to understand things now don't it?:)
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Yes it's clear, mister facist.
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Wow I have been called a marxist and a fascist in the some day, must be doing something right!!! :D
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I heard from 2 different sources the 507th was attacked by Iraqi tanks. Any truth to this?
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Nothing like drawing a generalization about the entire support force of the Army based on the performance of 1 unit.
If I was going to focus attention on any one aspect of that incident, it would be focused on the navigation error that lead them to be there in the first place. Simple attention to a very basic skill could have avoided the whole situation.
Another important fact that is conveniently omitted: Being ambushed at night in unfamiliar territory tends to negate a slight numerical advantage.
Don't get me wrong, I know that support units certainly aren't as competent in tactical skills as combat arms units(god how I know), but I think that article is a bit dramatic and draws many conclusions from a single episode.
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Raub, Hackworth's article is somewhat a followup to this one, which describes modern coed training practices for the non combat arms:
http://www.hackworth.com/article04032002c.html
I feel the flashback coming -- the day I got off the train at Fort Knox ("Come here, dogface. Your bellybutton is mine." ). I see myself a few days later trotting around the parade ground, holding the 60-pound base-plate of a 81mm mortar over my head, screaming "I'M a BIG bellybutton BIRD" at the top of my voice, shouting and staggering until my arms finally give out, the steel plate misses my head by a hair, and I'm lying with my nose in the mud wondering if I'll ever get out of Basic alive.
The point being, of course, that the very ruthlessness of the drill hardened me for something one hell of a lot more brutal.
Combat.
"That's not our mission," Lt. Col. Henry says. The rough stuff's for the shock troops training at Benning. "Here we're inoculating them for the prospect of maybe having a fight, hanging in there until the cavalry or infantry arrives to save the day."
Tough training for the line units, marshmallows for the rear? Talk about denial. In modern warfare, there is no front. Command and control nodes, airfields, supply dumps, logistics units, transport, the hospital, everything's fair game. If anything, in guerrilla warfare and terrorist actions, those targets are even more likely to be hit. A young sergeant I know put it this way: 'That U.S. Army name tag on your chest is the biggest bull's-eye in the world. These young soldiers are going to be in Korea. They're going to be in Bosnia. They are really exposed, man. When our cooks and clerks ran convoys of deuces and hummers through the streets of Mogadishu, do you think the Somalis were not going to shoot at them because they were 'noncombatants'''
I recommend Hackworth's "To Steel My Soldiers' Hearts" and "About Face" for anyone interested in looking at "Hack's" fascinating military career and his views on the shortcomings of the US "career" orientated officer development system. Ticket punchers looking to ride the gravy train.
I know I never had very much fun during my 14 weeks of 19D OSUT at Ft. Knox back in 1985. The last four weeks of AIT were as tough as the first four weeks of basic.
Charon
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anonymous
NTC was a dream duty station is you like doing mock combat. Its 200 square miles of brigade size desert combat 2 weeks every month. I was communications chief for the Air Defense unit assigned to take out the helo units. During battles I was my 1st Sgts driver. He would shoot down th apaches since I didnt know how to use a stinger missle. And I would hunt down the Bradleys with my Dragon missle. I was also apart of Team Spectre which was used to do convoy interdictions and raids on the rear support elements. The biggest game of laser tag in the world.