Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gofaster on June 25, 2003, 12:53:50 PM
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Giuliani was right; and these guys were idiots.
=====From Yahoo News======
Judge: NYC Erred in Racist Float Firings
Wed Jun 25, 3:41 AM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!
By LARRY NEUMEISTER, Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK - A federal judge has ruled that the First Amendment rights of two firefighters and a police officer were violated when the city fired them for riding in blackface on a parade float in 1998.
The government "may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because a segment of society finds it offensive," U.S. District Judge John E. Sprizzo said in his ruling Tuesday. I'll be sure to look for an American Nazi float at the Gay Pride parade...
Sprizzo rejected statements by former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani that the firings stemmed from concerns over civil unrest, saying he concluded that the "true motivation" was Giuliani's belief that the float was a "disgusting display of racism."
I think Giuliani's fears were well founded. After all, people will riot over stupid things, like whether their basketball team wins or loses a championship.
Kate O'Brien Ahlers, a spokeswoman for the city law office, said, "We will definitely be appealing this."
Those on the Labor Day float threw watermelon and fried chicken to paradegoers and made it appear as if one of the men in blackface was being dragged — not long after the highly publicized case of James Byrd Jr., a black man in Texas who was dragged to his death from a pickup truck, city officials said.
Sprizzo ruled after hearing evidence earlier this year, including testimony from Giuliani, who said he urged the firing of the three city employees because he feared the controversy might lead to race riots.
At the time, Giuliani publicly declared, "They will be fired."
The white employees — firefighters Jonathan Walters and Robert Steiner and police officer Joseph Locurto — sued the city to get their jobs back.
They testified that they had no racist intent and that their actions were protected by the First Amendment because the float was a parody. Of what? Idiocy?
The firefighters said they meant to poke fun at their predominantly white community's racist views with the "Black to the Future 2098" float. They said they used stereotypes, such as the blackface and Afro wigs, because that's the way community residents perceived blacks. I don't buy it. That dog won't hunt.
In earlier years, floats in the parade similarly mocked Hasidic Jews, gays and Asians. WTF? :eek: What neighborhood is this?
Chris Dunn, a staff attorney with the New York Civil Liberties Union, said the ruling "sends a message that city employees can't be scapegoated to serve a mayor's political agenda and that's exactly what happened here."
Giuliani was listed as a defendant in the case in his role as mayor. A call requesting comment was not immediately returned by his spokeswoman.
Michael N. Block, a lawyer for Walters, said he and his client were "very pleased."
Robert Didio, a lawyer for Steiner, said he was "absolutely thrilled."
"It shows that the little guy can fight back," he said. "This was unfortunately a situation where Mr. Steiner did something foolish and he recognizes that. But the penalty imposed by the mayor and the fire commissioner was not consistent with the actions on the float."
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If they weren't in uniform or acting in an official capacity, I don't see how it's any of the city's business. Good ruling.
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Good point. My first assumption was that it was a NYPD float, but if it was a different group's float, then that's a whole different issue of an employer trying to control an employee off-duty.
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I always find it amusing to see the PC crowd try to navigate the right to free speech and freedom of expression-line...on the one hand, it is perfectly acceptable to
a) display pictures of a crucifix in a cup of urine,
b) burn a flag
c) wear beard and rags and work politically to transform any democracy into some God forsaken moslem sharia-state
d) encourage girls to abort their unborn kids
Lord help you though if you DARE to
paint your face black and wear an afro wig
...then you are TOAST.
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What they did was in very poor taste, but I agree with the ruling too.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I always find it amusing to see the PC crowd try to navigate the right to free speech and freedom of expression-line...on the one hand, it is perfectly acceptable to
a) display pictures of a crucifix in a cup of urine,
b) burn a flag
c) wear beard and rags and work politically to transform any democracy into some God forsaken moslem sharia-state
d) encourage girls to abort their unborn kids
Lord help you though if you DARE to
paint your face black and wear an afro wig
...then you are TOAST.
"All I Needed To Know About Free Speech in America I Learned From Ann Coulter," by Hortlund, Swede.
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What idiots. I agree with gofaster, what kind of neighborhood/parade is this?
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Originally posted by Erlkonig
"All I Needed To Know About Free Speech in America I Learned From Ann Coulter," by Hortlund, Swede.
Well, it sure beats "All I know about laws and stuff I learned from reading the back of a milk carton" By Erlkonig.
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Sounds pretty stupid to me, but if they were on their own time and not wearing their uniforms, then it's none of the city's business.
SOB
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They are idiots though.
And this is from somebody who ENJOYS blackface.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
What they did was in very poor taste, but I agree with the ruling too.
exactly
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Originally posted by midnight Target
What they did was in very poor taste, but I agree with the ruling too.
Your give them too much credit, MT. Somehow, I think the idea of the float being a parody was a self-justifying afterthought! And, unfortunately, good taste is not prerequisite to exercise one's own right to make one's own self look like a total prettythang.
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"Very poor taste" is giving too much credit?
OK, They are a bunch of low life scum sucking pieces of whale poop that deserve the right to freedom of expression as much as anyone else.
How's that?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
How's that?
I'll take "what is overreaction" for $100 Alex
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What parade was this?
And Funked... what does "enjoy blackface" mean? Not an indictment... I honestly don't know what you are saying there.
MiniD
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I think that it's possible (but rare) for a white man made up as a black man to be funny. E.g. Karl Malone on The Man Show.
Same goes for anybody of Race X made up as Race Y.
E.g. Peter Sellers in "The Party".
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I'll take "what is overreaction" for $100 Alex
LOL :)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
"Very poor taste" is giving too much credit?
OK, They are a bunch of low life scum sucking pieces of whale poop that deserve the right to freedom of expression as much as anyone else.
How's that?
NO! Lower than whale poop!
And I didn't say they didn't deserve free speech a smuch as anyone else. and I know that you know that I meant what you think you undertand me to mean that I knew that .........
Somebody killed kenny again?............
Damn!
:D
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Freedom of expression means exactly that. It's not 'Freedom of popular expression'.
That said, they sound like resounding jerks.
Here's a good article on the subject: ACLU Defends Nazi's Right to Burn Down ACLU Headquarters (http://www.theonion.com/onion3211/acludefends.html)
:D
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ACLU defends W's right to Kill Kenny.....AGAIN!
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Originally posted by funkedup
I think that it's possible (but rare) for a white man made up as a black man to be funny. E.g. Karl Malone on The Man Show.
Same goes for anybody of Race X made up as Race Y.
E.g. Peter Sellers in "The Party".
OK.. that's what I thought you meant... you just didn't say "but rare" in the initial statement.
MiniD
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Idiots are abound. I don’t like what they did. It wasn’t funny, it wasn’t clever. It bothered me none though I admit, but I see dipsh*ts everyday.
Still, I find it interesting how things get all important when the AH BBS talks about racism, namely blacks.
For instance, people get pissed at me here and say “Go eat fish and rice", and "when you going to move to Asia, etc.?” Would they tell players with black wives to “Go eat watermelon and chicken, then go back to the ghetto?” No. Go figure, and where’s the outrage? There is none. (Thanks MT for realizing it)
It’s like watching the Tuskegee Airmen Disney Channel episode here, please.
Anyway, in a parade float or a spouting off in a flight sim bbs, neither is at one's work, so who cares, and it shouldn’t interfere with your job. Or we would all be in trouble, lol.
Giuliani publicly declared, "They will be fired."
He's a dip****. Fire him with votes, for what he is doing AT HIS job.
And it's wrong, btw, if that helps.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I always find it amusing to see the PC crowd try to navigate the right to free speech and freedom of expression-line...
Too bad it was the liberals who defended these guys. And no one was saying that they did anything illegal.
I am troubled by the ruling though, the City should have the right to expect some minimal level of professional conduct from its employees, even after hours. If these idiots had been working in the private sector and had embarassed their employer like this, they would be fired in a heart beat.
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You’re not attacking the liberals directly Montz, yet you called people idiots. Of course it’s not illegal what they did, yet.
Still, that’s slander, and you’re fired. Your employer has the right to expect some minimal level of professional conduct from its employees. And calling someone an “idiot” with no provocation is not exactly what someone expects from a citizen of the a true American republic. Would you say that to their face? No,
You don’t need a float and blackface to promote your cause I see, you are obviously hard core opinionated, and for that, your every position, idea, free thought, and ideals are here by judged, by anyone that doesn’t agree with you. The private sector can’t help you, they are private, and a dislodged entity from your plight.
Never mind, just fire the 2 firemen and the police guy. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Too bad it was the liberals who defended these guys.
Heh, does that mean that I'm a liberal?!
SOB
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Originally posted by Creamo
You’re not attacking the liberals directly Montz, yet you called people idiots. Of course it’s not illegal what they did, yet.
Well-played slippery slope argument there, but my (nearly) anonymously calling someone an idiot does not have the same potential to spark civil unrest that a police officer riding a racist parade float through town does.
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Originally posted by SOB
Heh, does that mean that I'm a liberal?!
SOB
I don't know, are you part of the New York Civil Liberties Union?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
What they did was in very poor taste, but I agree with the ruling too.
I agree 100% that it was very poor taste. Those guys didn't mean to parady anthing, they meant to mock blacks IMO.
Let them try that in a black part of the city and see what happens.
Anyway, If I saw a float of black guys in "whiteface" doing stereo-typical "white" things, I would probably think it was funny........ but the other way around (especially if I were black) I would not think it was funny at all.
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Originally posted by funkedup
If they weren't in uniform or acting in an official capacity, I don't see how it's any of the city's business. Good ruling.
I agree.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Montezuma
I don't know, are you part of the New York Civil Liberties Union?
Not the last time I checked, but I do have a membership to the YMCA. Does that count?
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
Not the last time I checked, but I do have a membership to the YMCA. Does that count?
SOB
Are you in the disco dance aerobics class?
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Bah humbug!
Montezuma’s right on the money with one.. inciting a riot ain’t protected speech what’s the matter with you tards..
Rudy, hero of 911, is absolutely correct on this.. due cause baby.. due cause..
The firefighters didn’t know they were inciting a riot...
What! these are professionals that work with people every day.. what do you mean they didn’t know.
Naw.. due cause..
It’s not the little guy that won on this one.. you guys are supporting a fat cat union with well paid lawyers.. The little guy is the black man or woman that maybe wanted to get a job working for the New York fire department.. They got the message all right..
What the well heeled lawyers did was change the charge from inciting a riot to a free speech issue.. which is protected..
WTF?.. the real charge is inciting a riot and you know it. Not only do they have no business representing the good people of New York City, they oughta be locked up an’ you know it..
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Dear god 10bears, what in the holy hell are you babbling about?! Sleep it off and come back sober.
SOB
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Crack is bad, ummmkay?
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Well, it sure beats "All I know about laws and stuff I learned from reading the back of a milk carton" By Erlkonig.
The law was made up to keep all the sheep in check....
Baaa Baaa Baaa