Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Naso on June 30, 2003, 03:29:13 AM
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Eh eh, did you expected some US bashing here???
Sorry to delude you.
After the dark period of the Iraqi war, an action of light from the US foreign policy.
I am talking about the weight that US have thrown on the table to push the Palestinians and the Israelis to stop the butchering and try a new way.
It's just a start, but.... maybe.... let's hope.
WTG, US!
And WTG Israel and Palestine to give a try with this "road map".
:)
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After the good the US and our allies have done and are doing in Iraq, we now are moving to implement the "roadmap to peace" in the Mideast.
but don't you think we should get UN authorization first? :)
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Just find more on Condoleza Rice`s "Responsibilities of freedom" speeches - boils down to "You either support global US hegemony or are part of the axis of evil"
Oh and the US frowns upon bans on genetically modified food - which ogf course is patendet and can only e bought from US companies.
At one point, the USA will reach a critical mass of countries that have had enough - and then what ?
Scary if you ask me.
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Originally posted by devious
Just find more on Condoleza Rice`s "Responsibilities of freedom" speeches - boils down to "You either support global US hegemony or are part of the axis of evil"
Oh and the US frowns upon bans on genetically modified food - which ogf course is patendet and can only e bought from US companies.
At one point, the USA will reach a critical mass of countries that have had enough - and then what ?
Scary if you ask me.
Maybe Germany will step in again and start another world war and solve everything.
America where we are today as a direct result of being sucked into two world wars, thanks to Europeans.
Now our lesson has been learned and we are armed to the teeth. Before the wars, we kinda just wanted to be left alone and .......were critized for being isolationists.
Oh well, all is good. At leat we don't have a nice country like China or Russia in our posistion. You ought to thank God for that.
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I'm afraid the europeans have already learned from two world wars.. america has yet to learn about big war on its soil :>
So I'll bet the US will be involved in the causes of next big war.
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What I find strange is seeing a governement using a sort of "coué method" with what look like a endless loop of : terrorism,freedom,war ... words I though exclusives ....
I know I should have not tried to translate a French sentence ... it look plain ugly in english :p
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any takers on which side will screw the pooch with this latest "peace"?
my money is on the pals and their enlightened leader fish-lips...
edit .. we as Americans do not think the Iraq war was "a dark period" nor will the Iraqis going forward
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Who bombed Pearl Harbour, Nuke?
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Originally posted by straffo
What I find strange is seeing a governement using a sort of "coué method" with what look like a endless loop of : terrorism,freedom,war ... words I though exclusives ....
I know I should have not tried to translate a French sentence ... it look plain ugly in english :p
pax americana baby, learn it, live it, love it.
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Credit where credit is due. The Arab/Israeli problem needs solving and America has the influence to do it. The 'war on terror' isn't just about military action. It's about removing the reasons for it in the first place. Resolving or at least reducing violence in the middle east will take the sting out of any justification the terrorists use to murder people.
Depsite accusations of war mongering it's in America's and by definition everyone's interest for peace to be the norm. It's good for business apart from anything else.
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Originally posted by devious
Oh and the US frowns upon bans on genetically modified food - which ogf course is patendet and can only e bought from US companies.
not exactly, the USA wants the africans to grow the modified foods to feed millions of starving africans, (higher yield, less loss to disease and pests)
but the africans won't grow them because they can't export the food to europe.
which brings up the question,if africans are starving, why do they want to export food to europe?
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You'll find the Africans are not too happy about not being able to be self-sufficient in terms of crop growth - they would have to go to the GM companies with cap in hand for seeds every season. Also the US government could use the seed supply as leverage.
GM foods are looked at suspiciously in Europe - in fact all food issues are, ever since the BSE scares of the 80s and 90s.
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Originally posted by john9001
not exactly, the USA wants the africans to grow the modified foods to feed millions of starving africans, (higher yield, less loss to disease and pests)
but the africans won't grow them because they can't export the food to europe.
which brings up the question,if africans are starving, why do they want to export food to europe?
Did you ever spoke to an American Farmer of Monsanto ?
He will explain you how great is it to have your in Monsanto hands ...
Beware of the cultural clash you will learn how Monsanto work daily with "their" farmer.
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Originally posted by Dowding
You'll find the Africans are not too happy about not being able to be self-sufficient in terms of crop growth - they would have to go to the GM companies with cap in hand for seeds every season. Also the US government could use the seed supply as leverage.
As opposed to being not too happy about not being self-sufficient in terms of crop growth now?
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Originally posted by devious
Oh and the US frowns upon bans on genetically modified food - which ogf course is patendet and can only e bought from US companies.
Whats wrong with the US frowning upon bans of a product we produce? Why does it matter who holds the patents? If there was no ban, companies still wouldn't be forced to buy GM products from the US, it would be an option if they wanted to. The market would decide, as it should.
Plus, the patents could be licensed.....like any other patent I suppose.
Now if there are concerns about the safety of the product, I can understand that point. If GM foods prove to be safe, banning it only because the US holds the patents would be a farce.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Who bombed Pearl Harbour, Nuke?
Japan?????
Japan attacked us Dec 7th, and on the morning of the 11th, Germany and Italy declared war on the US, not the other way around
The Europeans started WWII and we got sucked into it.
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Originally posted by Fishu
I'm afraid the europeans have already learned from two world wars.. america has yet to learn about big war on its soil :>
So I'll bet the US will be involved in the causes of next big war.
Yeah ... that whole Civil War thingie was just a hoot. ;)
And yeah, the U.S. will probably be involved in the causes of the next big war. But it won't be the cause of it, I guarantee you.
But you're right to start the blame game now while Finland still has an infrastructure and technological capability. After the war starts may be too late. ;)
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Originally posted by NUKE
Whats wrong with the US frowning upon bans of a product we produce? Why does it matter who holds the patents? If there was no ban, companies still wouldn't be forced to buy GM products from the US, it would be an option if they wanted to. The market would decide, as it should.
Plus, the patents could be licensed.....like any other patent I suppose.
Now if there are concerns about the safety of the product, I can understand that point. If GM foods prove to be safe, banning it only because the US holds the patents would be a farce.
Pot meet kettle.
The US regularly imposes trade sanctions/taxes/tarrifs on imported goods to protect its own markets. The US has been taken to the WTO on numerous occasions (and lost) because of its protectionist market policies which contradict its own "free global trade" statements.
Hardly letting the 'market decide' is it now Nuke?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Pot meet kettle.
The US regularly imposes trade sanctions/taxes/tarrifs on imported goods to protect its own markets. The US has been taken to the WTO on numerous occasions (and lost) because of its protectionist market policies which contradict its own "free global trade" statements.
Hardly letting the 'market decide' is it now Nuke?
Never said it didnt happen.....happens both ways, tit for tat trade violations.
My point was that why should it be bad (as devious said) for the US to not be happy about an outright ban on a product? He gave an example of the US owning the patent as a reason to fear GM products, and that was what I thought was most humorous.
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Originally posted by NUKE
He gave an example of the US owning the patent as a reason to fear GM products, and that was what I thought was most humorous.
Two years ago an Australian farmer had his entire crop taken by a commercial farming business. His crop got contimanted with GE crop from the commercial farm next to his which this company owned the patent on.
They legally took his crop, and left him with nothing.
Not that humorous is it?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Two years ago an Australian farmer had his entire crop taken by a commercial farming business. His crop got contimanted with GE crop from the commercial farm next to his which this company owned the patent on.
They legally took his crop, and left him with nothing.
Not that humorous is it?
If it was "legally" taken then I'm not sad. Let me see some details.
But even then, has nothing to do with banning GM foods from the EU market.
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Originally posted by NUKE
If it was "legally" taken then I'm not sad. Let me see some details.
But even then, has nothing to do with banning GM foods from the EU market.
It depend of the law and nothing else.
GM are banned in the EU by the law/reglementation/rule whatever you call it.
Imagine we legalise cocaine in the EU will the EU be able to sell cocaine to the US ?
I guess no ... so why should we modify our laws according to some of megacorp need ?
The day pharmaceutical industries will be able to have patent on some DNA sequence our future will be doomed ...
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Originally posted by devious
Oh and the US frowns upon bans on genetically modified food - which ogf course is patendet and can only e bought from US companies.
Just thought I'd throw this little bit of reality in for your edification.
ALL food commonly found in a grocery store is genetically modified. This was finally put into scientific terms by a little fellow named Gregor Mendell. It is STILL being practiced by farmers and livestock breeders. Let's hear the collective gasp as reality sets in........:rolleyes:
You really wouldn't be much interested in the stuff in its original form after being accustomed to the food you were raised on now would you?
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Originally posted by NUKE
If it was "legally" taken then I'm not sad. Let me see some details.
But even then, has nothing to do with banning GM foods from the EU market.
It has everything to do with it.
Many farmers outside the USA are pushing for the ban to ensure their crops don't get 'accidentally cross contaminated' and then repo'd by the companies who own the 'patents' on the GM version.
I'm not against GM crops per se. I agree with maverick in that we have been modifying crops and livestock for thousands of years, its just we've recently changed the way we do things. But these 'patented' crops are dangerous stuff, from a commercial point of view. No laws enforce any kind of isolation of GM crops, to prevent contamination.
We're talking about farmers losing their entire crops because of this patent issue.
Theres a good reason Nuke, you still think its humorous?
Perhaps you should read what you write Nuke:
"The market would decide, as it should"
"tit for tat trade violations"
So its OK for the US to do it but you squeak about the "market should decide" when the Europeans do it to you?
Maybe you have more in common with the French than you think Nuke?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
It has everything to do with it.
Many farmers outside the USA are pushing for the ban to ensure their crops don't get 'accidentally cross contaminated' and then repo'd by the companies who own the 'patents' on the GM version.
My point was GM foods, not crops. How can crops be cross contaminated by food?
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america has yet to learn about big war on its soil
Oh, I guess the 618,000 that died during our civil war don't count?
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Originally posted by NUKE
My point was GM foods, not crops. How can crops be cross contaminated by food?
Quite easily. Spend some time on a farm, learn about where human waste goes. Just look at the UK sources foot in mouth outbreaks for an example.
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Just thought I'd throw this little bit of reality in for your edification.
ALL food commonly found in a grocery store is genetically modified. This was finally put into scientific terms by a little fellow named Gregor Mendell. It is STILL being practiced by farmers and livestock breeders. Let's hear the collective gasp as reality sets in........
Sorry to dispel your aire of self-conceit... but GM food is not commonly found in UK food. The US is entirely different.
Japan?????
Japan attacked us Dec 7th, and on the morning of the 11th, Germany and Italy declared war on the US, not the other way around
The Europeans started WWII and we got sucked into it.
Of course! Japan is part of Europe now! Thanks for the geography lesson, mate.
And I like how you justify US protectionism through the 'tit for tat' argument. What's next? A 'you started it' assertion? If you want to criticise Europe, then you must be ready to criticise your own country.
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Dowding,
Unless you eat ragweed or dandelions you are eating genetically altered food. Get over it. All the food that is commonly grown has been the subject of genetic breeding for various traits. The most desired traits are increased yields, better nutrition and resistance to disease.
Do you eat beef? It has a LONG history of breeding for various products and breeds of cattle. Milk production was a big goal in breeding, but I suppose you don't use milk products in Britain. :rolleyes:
Do you eat chicken, same there naturally. Remember the push to create a chicken that would lay eggs with less cholesterol?? They succeeded.
BTW sheep were crossbred for better meat and wool production. Of course it was rather haphazard but they did make some changes didn't they.
Any corn products? Corn has come a LONG way since the early maize was used as food.
Don't get all in a huff because there is now a more refined scientific method for altering plants other than trying to cross polinate varous strains and see what pops up. The hit or miss experimentation is more likely to be hazardous IMO.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Don't get all in a huff because there is now a more refined scientific method for altering plants other than trying to cross polinate varous strains and see what pops up. The hit or miss experimentation is more likely to be hazardous IMO.
Africanised Honey Bee's anyone?
AFAIK tradional genetic modification methods had NO safeguards whereas modern methods are highly scrutinised.
Must remember that for my next greenie-bashing session.
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Originally posted by Dago
Oh, I guess the 618,000 that died during our civil war don't count?
Maybe having 50.000.000 and more dead in two wars (the numbers I heard are 19 mil for first and 52 mil for second), with an high percentage of civilians in the second is a better hint of what can be a modern total war.
I know, someone is going to beat me for this kind of "mine is bigger", but I have understood than the common US citizen have no real idea of what WWII has been here, and sometime is so difficult to.... let this fact fade in the darkness. :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
we as Americans do not think the Iraq war was "a dark period" nor will the Iraqis going forward
I purposely used the "dark period" because Iraqi war has been the first time an US action has been largely questioned even in allied nations.
it's undoubitably an obscure thing without a clear and definite cause and with still unknown consequences.
So it's obscure, not implying moral judgement.
Remember, I am one of the idiots that think that a war is not a just war, with the exception of self-defence.
And preceiding you objection, the US military invation of a foreign indipendent nation, it's not easy to define clearly a self-defence.
Anyway what is done is done, let's hope for the better.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Just thought I'd throw this little bit of reality in for your edification.
ALL food commonly found in a grocery store is genetically modified. This was finally put into scientific terms by a little fellow named Gregor Mendell. It is STILL being practiced by farmers and livestock breeders. Let's hear the collective gasp as reality sets in........:rolleyes:
You really wouldn't be much interested in the stuff in its original form after being accustomed to the food you were raised on now would you?
Mav, strictly speaking, all the food his genetically modified, using an "artificially accelered natural selection" (nice definition! :) ).
In the actual research and GMs there are two big differences:
first: the patent, in the hand of the single subject.
second: the fact that (purposely or not) theese GM organisms are in maximum part sterile.
a powerfull weapon in the hand of subjects that notoriously have no interests of people's good, but only in money.
I must confess, this worryes me.
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Anyway, how in the hell a "pat on the back" type of post have been hijacked in a "no-gm + Euro bashing" thread ????
You guys are amaizing.
:)
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America just wants Palestinian oil.
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Maverick - we're not talking about using breeding to isolate desirable traits, we're talking about interfering with the genetic data itself and bypassing natural safeguards that would reject the outcome - THAT is the GM food I'm talking about, and very little UK food involves that process.
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Originally posted by ra
America just wants Palestinian oil.
ra, man, how are you, I was missing your jokes!!
:D
:P
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Originally posted by Dowding
Maverick - we're not talking about using breeding to isolate desirable traits, we're talking about interfering with the genetic data itself and bypassing natural safeguards that would reject the outcome - THAT is the GM food I'm talking about, and very little UK food involves that process.
Dowding, in my opinion (always humble, apparently ;) ), the problem is not in the technology used (breeding or direct manipulation), but in the use, or better in the reasons behind the use of such technology.
Profit... mmm... =danger.
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Dang, until Dowding and Ra butted in, you had a great filibuster going.
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Originally posted by ra
America just wants Palestinian oil.
You sir, are wrong!
America just wants vegetable oil.
No blood for vegetables!
-SW
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Originally posted by Naso
Mav, strictly speaking, all the food his genetically modified, using an "artificially accelered natural selection" (nice definition! :) ).
In the actual research and GMs there are two big differences:
first: the patent, in the hand of the single subject.
second: the fact that (purposely or not) theese GM organisms are in maximum part sterile.
a powerfull weapon in the hand of subjects that notoriously have no interests of people's good, but only in money.
I must confess, this worryes me.
Quite incorrect Naso. More 'tradationally' modified foods also have patents. For example, I know the NZ Apple Board owns the patent on the Pacific Rose apple. I know they have enforced this patent as well (I think growers in Chile tried to grow the apples).
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Vulcan, I dont know what is the NZ apple board, but I imagine is an association of all the apple producers in NZ.
Maybe I explained mysalf bad (as usual), but there's a big difference for me between a local or national organization (like the ones we have about ("the real napolitan pizza", or "the real mozzarella di bufala"), and a single corporation that sell you a seed with specific charateristics, sterile, and capable to deny, in various manners the use of your crop for other things.
It's like grasping you for the balls.
Modifying nature it's a dangerous playground, in both ways, and in this case I trust more the traditional way than the profit oriented new way.
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I don't disagree, read further up on why I think the European GM bans are good.
I'm just pointing out it doesn't have to be 'modern GM'd to be patented.
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well i realy dont know what are you celebrating here...
Afghanistan is in total chaos, only 1 safe city is Kabul
Iraq is in total chaos, more and more Us soldiers die every day
(today has been 18 of them injured)
Sadam is somewhere in the middle of nowhere
Osama is having dring somewhere in south america
anyway did anyone hear that cool story about annimal farm & CIA on BBS ?
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Originally posted by threedays
well i realy dont know what are you celebrating here...
Afghanistan is in total chaos, only 1 safe city is Kabul
They still killin' people in the football (soccer) stadium?
no.... this equals progress.
Iraq is in total chaos, more and more US soldiers die every day
(today has been 18 of them injured)
Sadam is somewhere in the middle of nowhere
Chaos in Liberia, Mindinao, Kosovo, Columbia, Peru,...... Iraq does not seem to be an isolated case. And the middle of nowhere is a good place for SH.
Osama is having dring somewhere in south america
Osama's in rio? really? and getting hammered?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
They still killin' people in the football (soccer) stadium?
no.... this equals progress.
no not realy, they already shot them behind the city walls
anyway whats wrong with execution on soccer stadium ?
im wondering that you do not mind about china
last time they executed about 50 people at once
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Originally posted by threedays
no not realy, they already shot them behind the city walls
anyway whats wrong with execution on soccer stadium ?
im wondering that you do not mind about china
last time they executed about 50 people at once
I mentioned China? Where? When?
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Originally posted by Dago
Oh, I guess the 618,000 that died during our civil war don't count?
Dam good point.
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and what about 50,000 Romans that Hanibal killed in one battle - doean't that count?
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you didnt mention china (and show me where i said that), you just mentioned that killing people on soccer stadium is so terrible, so im wondering, that you dont mind abou t public execution on soccer stadium in china
anyway about GM
as everybody know in bussines are money on the 1st place
and thats the reason, why GM shoulnt be bussines
anyway normal food is quite good for me
im glad that GM are not here
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Originally posted by bozon
and what about 50,000 Romans that Hanibal killed in one battle - doean't that count?
lol what the hell do you count here ? :D
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Originally posted by threedays
you didnt mention china (and show me where i said that), you just mentioned that killing people on soccer stadium is so terrible, so im wondering, that you dont mind abou t public execution on soccer stadium in china
You keep bringing up China, not me. I made no reference to China, therfore you do not know my thoughts about Chinese executions. You assume I somehow condone something that I never mention. You assume incorrectly.
My statement was that because the Kabul Football Stadium (Not in China) is no longer used for executions, progress is being made.
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sure i do and im not telling that you do
as i said, im wondering that you are complaining about execution in Afg and not in Chn
anyway did yu hear about these thing before 'war' in afghanistan ?
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You brought up Afganistan, so I commented that progress is made when sports facilities are used for sports, rather than murder. Do you disagree?
In my comment on Afganistan, I made no reference to any other country, from Andorra to Zimbabwe. I was just commenting on Afganistan. To make any inference to any subject other than the Kabul football stadium is extrapolation way beyond what is logical.
And yes, I followed the treatment of the Afgan populace by the Taliban before September 11, 2001. I distinctly remember an interview of a Mullah who responded to a question on the use of a facility (that was built to celibrate humanity through sports) for the execution of the citizenry.
The Mullah lamented that if the world community would only provide the Taliban with the funds to build a place for execution, they would not have to use the football stadium.
Pure anarchy is better than what they had with the Taliban, IMHO.